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Tags AAL11 , UAL175

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Old 12th November 2012, 05:14 AM   #1
BCR
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Were The OTIS Fighters Diverted?

Someone sent this via email with the following remarks.

Quote:
Have you seen this video? We know about the diversions from Langley. Were the Otis fighters also diverted?
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I have not done a lot of work with the OTIS response, so I'll just throw it out to you guys for a response (or not). It seems there is the suggestion that based on Colin Scoggins calls to NEADS, the video producers believe the time stamps on the radar data sets have been altered. Keep in mind that would involve changing not only the 84 RADES radar time stamps, but also the FAA's (multiple) as well. Since those records do align with events recorded via 'live' television on that day, such a claim is most certainly without merit.
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Old 12th November 2012, 07:02 AM   #2
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Wiki has a good basic rundown of the Otis Fighter response:

Originally Posted by wikipedia
Flying supersonicly, the F-15’s were just south of Long Island when United Airlines Flight 175 smashed into the World Trade Center’s south tower. NEADS wanted to direct the fighters over Manhattan, but FAA air controllers, fearing collisions with civilian aircraft, told NEADS to hold off. According to the FAA, there is an average of 200 flights per 24 hours over the Hudson River in the vicinity of NYC. The fighters were then ordered in a holding pattern off the coast of Long Island (in military-controlled airspace), where they remained from 9:09 to 9:13. After the airspace was cleared, the Otis fighters were directed towards Manhattan, where they arrived at 9:25 and established a combat air patrol (CAP).
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Old 12th November 2012, 07:26 AM   #3
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Much ado about nothing. The FAA was obviously the inside job bad guys in this entire scenario. It's obvious in all of the scenarios involved. ZNY diverted Otis fighters, Norfolk Departure diverted Langley fighters, and Indy Ctr along with others failed to detect AA 77 on it's path to DC. Wake up folks, the FAA was the inside job culprit on 9/11! How dare them to continue with their primary job of attempting to prevent mid air collisions by controlling traffic. Didn't they realize what was happening until it was all over?

Now, in the real world the narrator of that video (with an unique annoying British accent) gave the answer very early... It really didn't matter anyway, do why did he make this video in the first place?

FWIW, several of us have analyzed the radar returns and neither the Otis or the Langley fighters flew supersonic, except PERHAPS for a few seconds... In most cases they were above .9 Mach, but not supersonic. As one might expect they flew in mil power with judicious use of after burner except for very brief periods... How dare them to consider judicious use of fuel.

Another myth bites the dust....
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:53 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
...
Now, in the real world the narrator of that video (with an unique annoying British accent) gave the answer very early... It really didn't matter anyway, do why did he make this video in the first place?
...
It sounds like the narrator is a computer generated voice with an annoying British accent.
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Old 12th November 2012, 10:54 AM   #5
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6:11 "It's speculation of course."

Thank you.

That's a German accent by the way.
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Old 12th November 2012, 01:03 PM   #6
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If we truth seekers can convince the government to spend some bucks on a new investigation (let's write them e-mails, everyone!), then questions like these wouldn't pop up like a jack-in-the-box twice a week in this forum.

But then of course, the paid scribblers here would lose their jobs and the NWO would have to dispose of the people who partcipated in the cover-up, people who are in the know. Basically, they'd need a cover up of a cover up.

You need to learn that advanced PsyOp shills are now beginning to leak truth to pin everything on the US government as a whole (and a few selected military officers), to push the international community on US gov "war crimes", which if kept to/in the NWO kangaroo charade, could acquit many individual neocon stealth perpetrators, while nullifying the pesky US constitution.
Shills like FrankHT (of course a fake double account) are paid to pose as truthers and tackle this deception task.

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Old 12th November 2012, 01:47 PM   #7
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I haven't watched it, but heres my understanding.

1. Otis fighters were waiting on the FAA for a clearance. For obvious reasons they couldn't just blat them through one of the most congested airspaces in the world.

2. How long it took to get this clearance, and how long they had to fly around in controlled airspace, is completely and totally irrelevant, as they were not even able to get airborne until 0852, 6 minutes after AA11 hit the North Tower. United 175 hit the South Tower 11 minutes later with absolutely no warning, neither NEADS, nor the Otis fighters, knew of Flight 175's hijacking prior to impact.

3. Even if by some almighty power NEADS knew of Flight 175's hijacking the instant its transponder was switched to 3321, and the Otis fighters burned full blower towards it, and by some miracle identified it, Shoot Down authority was not available, nor was the idea of shooting down a commercial airliner full of American civilians even heard of!

In all, the 'Otis fighters being diverted' = '9/11 inside job' cannot possible hold water.
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Old 12th November 2012, 06:53 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Starving for Truth View Post
If we truth seekers can convince the government to spend some bucks on a new investigation (let's write them e-mails, everyone!), then questions like these wouldn't pop up like a jack-in-the-box twice a week in this forum.

But then of course, the paid scribblers here would lose their jobs and the NWO would have to dispose of the people who partcipated in the cover-up, people who are in the know. Basically, they'd need a cover up of a cover up.

You need to learn that advanced PsyOp shills are now beginning to leak truth to pin everything on the US government as a whole (and a few selected military officers), to push the international community on US gov "war crimes", which if kept to/in the NWO kangaroo charade, could acquit many individual neocon stealth perpetrators, while nullifying the pesky US constitution.
Shills like FrankHT (of course a fake double account) are paid to pose as truthers and tackle this deception task.
A brilliant example of truther logic. To cover up their Machiavellian scheme, the Gnomes of Cleveland will arrange the "accidental" death of tens of thousands of their flunkies. Then, of course, they'll have to arrange for the demise of the hitmen they use for the job (can't have them suddenly going into a fit of remorse, y'know). 20-30 thousand people, all slipping in the shower at the same time, followed shortly by a few thousand more nefarious agent types suddenly disappearing.
NOBODY would ever question that!
And ALL of just so the evil Gnomes could take control of the world they already control.
I think it might be easier ( and certainly quieter) to just whack out the tiny remnants of the truther movement.
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Old 12th November 2012, 07:33 PM   #9
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Ok I've watched it now. He has no evidence of a time discrepancy, simply going off what Colin said about AA11 being 20 south of Albany. He even says its speculation, or as he puts it, an 'educated guess'. Not educated at all, he's clutching at straws. He also goes into the Langley fighters, but forgets to mention that NEADS had no idea American 77 was inbound from the SW of Washington.
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Old 13th November 2012, 03:24 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Chuck Guiteau View Post
A brilliant example of truther logic. To cover up their Machiavellian scheme, the Gnomes of Cleveland will arrange the "accidental" death of tens of thousands of their flunkies. Then, of course, they'll have to arrange for the demise of the hitmen they use for the job (can't have them suddenly going into a fit of remorse, y'know). 20-30 thousand people, all slipping in the shower at the same time, followed shortly by a few thousand more nefarious agent types suddenly disappearing.
NOBODY would ever question that!


"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
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Old 13th November 2012, 06:48 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Starving for Truth View Post


"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
What, did I miss a few thousand shills and participants?

I know that asking you for a logical, well reasoned theory is most likely to be ignored inasmuch as, so far, every truther who's been asked to provide one has either dodged, scurried away, or simply pretended the question was never asked, but since you seem confused about the comment you highlighted, maybe you would care give us an estimate regarding how many conspirators it would take to pull off an "inside" job.

I do like your sigline, BTW.
When you eliminate the impossible (such as explosives, thermite, and death beams), the only thing left is the 19 Muslim fanatics theory.
Unless you want to be the first truther to provide a reasonable, logical, and realistic explanation that fits the scenario better than the 19MFT.
Be my guest!
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Old 13th November 2012, 06:50 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Starving for Truth View Post


"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
When you have eliminated the impossible the TM disappears.
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Old 13th November 2012, 02:02 PM   #13
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I have always felt that the minutes didn't line up with everything that went on that morning, but by never more than a couple of minutes. But knowing the system the way it is, everything has to be within 15 seconds. That is between both facilities NEADS and Boston Center. I seriously doubt if it was off by more than 15 seconds. So why the two or three minutes, I would write it off as stress. It was a stressful morning, the most I had probably ever been put through. So I am sure my internal clock may not have been working that well. In addition some of my calls about location were very general. I was not at a scope, Joe Cooper was and I was relaying what he was telling me. In addition there were several calls that were not recorded. I made a 30 NM south of Albany, a 40 NM call south of Albany and a 50 south of Albany call, then a 40 NM north of JFK, a 16 NM north of JFK, an 8 NM north of JFK, and to Latitude/Longitude calls. Only several of these were recorded, I was using 4 different telephone numbers that morning at NEADS, and I think only two of them were recordable. In addition to NEADS calls, I called Otis at least six times.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:27 PM   #14
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I just have to say, Colin, you really are an invaluable source of information. I'm sure I and many others here really appreciate your contributions.
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Old 13th November 2012, 07:01 PM   #15
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Isn't his theory basically the same as my theory? The Otis fighters were diverted BEFORE flight 175 hit the WTC and were put into the holding pattern to WAIT for 175 to hit. We've actually been debating this for a quite a while now. At least now I know someone else actually gets it.
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Old 13th November 2012, 08:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by FrankHT View Post
Isn't his theory basically the same as my theory? The Otis fighters were diverted BEFORE flight 175 hit the WTC and were put into the holding pattern to WAIT for 175 to hit. We've actually been debating this for a quite a while now. At least now I know someone else actually gets it.
No, that is a deliberate misstatement on your part. They were not diverted to wait for 175 to hit, they were diverted for the FAA to clear the way for them to get into the heart of the most crowded airspace in the country. In fact, 175 hit before they even entered the holding pattern. The fact remains, the fighters were too late to stop 175 and none of your bare assertions will change that.
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Old 13th November 2012, 11:33 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by thedopefishlives View Post
No, that is a deliberate misstatement on your part. They were not diverted to wait for 175 to hit, they were diverted for the FAA to clear the way for them to get into the heart of the most crowded airspace in the country. In fact, 175 hit before they even entered the holding pattern. The fact remains, the fighters were too late to stop 175 and none of your bare assertions will change that.
There's no doubt that the Otis fighters were originally directed towards the NYC area. That's on that's NORAD tapes channel 2. You claim the diversion was for the FAA to clear the air space. Can you tell me exactly when the FAA did this and gave the pilots clearance? Source it please. You wont be able to because the FAA didn't. The pilots took the initiative and did it on their own telling the FAA & NEADS they NEEDED (were going to go with or without clearance) to go to NY. Why? Because they saw (from within their holding pattern) 175 strike WTC 2.
You claim the Otis fighters could not have made it to NYC in time to stop Flight 175,but this is simply wrong. By the Military's own admission the flight time for an F15 from Otis to NYC is 10-12 minutes. They were scrambled at 8:52 and flew from TAKE OFF "Full blower all the way","Supersonic"[Quotes-Col. Duffy].8:52 to 9:03 (time WTC 2 was hit)=11 minutes! yet the Commission claims they still 100 miles out from NYC at 9:03 ! They barely moved ! How do explain that?
You can pick your poison,but there's a problem here. Either the pilots are lying or the scramble didn't happen at the time we were told or the holding pattern came before 9:03. Either way the official story is false.
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Old 14th November 2012, 02:12 AM   #18
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There was no particular reason for them to make a bee line for the WTC so they were directed down to cover the New York area by flying over the ocean in less congested airspace.

What do you think their ground speed was when they were climbing to altitude? Is your 10-12 minutes to get to NY from wheels up or is it for a plane already in the air?

And again, even if they did know precisely where to go and ran full speed through controlled airspace they couldn't have done anything but watch it happen from slightly closer.
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Old 14th November 2012, 04:13 AM   #19
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Wasn't the delay due to ATC clearing the airspace so the fighters wouldn't hit anyone?
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Old 14th November 2012, 04:18 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by FrankHT View Post
Either the pilots are lying or the scramble didn't happen at the time we were told or the holding pattern came before 9:03. Either way the official story is false.
They only thing False, here. Is your choice fallacy!
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Old 14th November 2012, 05:31 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by FrankHT View Post
There's no doubt that the Otis fighters were originally directed towards the NYC area. That's on that's NORAD tapes channel 2. You claim the diversion was for the FAA to clear the air space. Can you tell me exactly when the FAA did this and gave the pilots clearance? Source it please. You wont be able to because the FAA didn't. The pilots took the initiative and did it on their own telling the FAA & NEADS they NEEDED (were going to go with or without clearance) to go to NY. Why? Because they saw (from within their holding pattern) 175 strike WTC 2.
You claim the Otis fighters could not have made it to NYC in time to stop Flight 175,but this is simply wrong. By the Military's own admission the flight time for an F15 from Otis to NYC is 10-12 minutes. They were scrambled at 8:52 and flew from TAKE OFF "Full blower all the way","Supersonic"[Quotes-Col. Duffy].8:52 to 9:03 (time WTC 2 was hit)=11 minutes! yet the Commission claims they still 100 miles out from NYC at 9:03 ! They barely moved ! How do explain that?
You can pick your poison,but there's a problem here. Either the pilots are lying or the scramble didn't happen at the time we were told or the holding pattern came before 9:03. Either way the official story is false.
Frank, why don't you get that your whole theory is completely pointless and irrelevant? It would not have mattered if the Air Force had parked a squadron of F-15's over Manhattan since dawn. What were the orders in a hijacking up to 9/11? To immediately shoot down any suspect aircraft over highly populated areas? I don't think so. Fighters (having of course found it first) would "follow an aircraft that was confirmed to be hijacked in order to assure positive flight following, report unusual observances, and aid search and rescue in the event of an emergency."

You entire alleged diversion is completely unnecessary and pointless. It does not matter where the fighters were, they could and would have done nothing to stop what happened in New York that day.
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Old 14th November 2012, 05:54 AM   #22
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Have you guys noticed or discussed Paul Schreyer? A German Truther, I think, who lately has received some attention in the circles that I have on my radar:

A paper at the "Journal of 9/11 Stundies": Anomalies of the air defense on 9/11
On youtube: Inside 9/11 - Who diverted the fighter jets?
Discussed at 911Blogger: New Video: Inside 9/11 - Who diverted the fighter jets?

He speculates that the few minutes mismatch between Colin's call "AA11 is 20 miles south of Albany" and the actual location 80 miles south of Aalbany could mean that the entire time track of Otis fighterscould be placed a few minutes earlier, such that it would have been possible for them to reach UA175 in time to take a peak into the cockpit (Schreyer doesn't claim there was a chance to shoot down, but a chance to identify the crew, which, he insinuates, isn't known for certain).
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Old 14th November 2012, 06:03 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Have you guys noticed or discussed Paul Schreyer? A German Truther, I think, who lately has received some attention in the circles that I have on my radar:

A paper at the "Journal of 9/11 Stundies": Anomalies of the air defense on 9/11
On youtube: Inside 9/11 - Who diverted the fighter jets?
Discussed at 911Blogger: New Video: Inside 9/11 - Who diverted the fighter jets?

He speculates that the few minutes mismatch between Colin's call "AA11 is 20 miles south of Albany" and the actual location 80 miles south of Aalbany could mean that the entire time track of Otis fighterscould be placed a few minutes earlier, such that it would have been possible for them to reach UA175 in time to take a peak into the cockpit (Schreyer doesn't claim there was a chance to shoot down, but a chance to identify the crew, which, he insinuates, isn't known for certain).
If Colin was to tell me for a fact that the plane was 100% without a doubt 20 miles south of Albany when he called NEADS, it would still not matter. Although I greatly respect and admire Colin, there is an indisputable and absolute record of everything that happened from multiple sources. The timeline of events is known down to a margin of a few seconds error and to overcome it would require substantial and objective evidence. To date, I have seen none.
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Old 14th November 2012, 06:57 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by BCR View Post
If Colin was to tell me for a fact that the plane was 100% without a doubt 20 miles south of Albany when he called NEADS, it would still not matter. Although I greatly respect and admire Colin, there is an indisputable and absolute record of everything that happened from multiple sources. The timeline of events is known down to a margin of a few seconds error and to overcome it would require substantial and objective evidence. To date, I have seen none.
Absolutely.

Picking one data point, which is an oral report of a human being in a highly stressful situation, declaring that as gold standard and absolutely true, and then massaging all the other evidence, much of it more objective as no human interaction is involved, to fit that one outlier, is quote mining in the very extreme.
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Old 14th November 2012, 10:42 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by FrankHT View Post
There's no doubt that the Otis fighters were originally directed towards the NYC area. That's on that's NORAD tapes channel 2. You claim the diversion was for the FAA to clear the air space. Can you tell me exactly when the FAA did this and gave the pilots clearance? Source it please. You wont be able to because the FAA didn't. The pilots took the initiative and did it on their own telling the FAA & NEADS they NEEDED (were going to go with or without clearance) to go to NY. Why? Because they saw (from within their holding pattern) 175 strike WTC 2.
You claim the Otis fighters could not have made it to NYC in time to stop Flight 175,but this is simply wrong. By the Military's own admission the flight time for an F15 from Otis to NYC is 10-12 minutes. They were scrambled at 8:52 and flew from TAKE OFF "Full blower all the way","Supersonic"[Quotes-Col. Duffy].8:52 to 9:03 (time WTC 2 was hit)=11 minutes! yet the Commission claims they still 100 miles out from NYC at 9:03 ! They barely moved ! How do explain that?
You can pick your poison,but there's a problem here. Either the pilots are lying or the scramble didn't happen at the time we were told or the holding pattern came before 9:03. Either way the official story is false.
Liars, you make up fantasy then have to blame everyone for your crazy claims.

NORAD has no authority to send planes into FAA airspace. NORAD does not own the airspace. You don't do flying, you do fantasy, poorly.
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Old 14th November 2012, 03:35 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by FrankHT View Post
You claim the Otis fighters could not have made it to NYC in time to stop Flight 175,but this is simply wrong. By the Military's own admission the flight time for an F15 from Otis to NYC is 10-12 minutes. They were scrambled at 8:52 and flew from TAKE OFF "Full blower all the way","Supersonic"[Quotes-Col. Duffy].8:52 to 9:03 (time WTC 2 was hit)=11 minutes! yet the Commission claims they still 100 miles out from NYC at 9:03 ! They barely moved ! How do explain that?
You can pick your poison,but there's a problem here. Either the pilots are lying or the scramble didn't happen at the time we were told or the holding pattern came before 9:03. Either way the official story is false.
Since you've brought this up a number of times let's have a quick look at the numbers.

Otis AB is about 190 miles from the WTC. If the fighters were to take 12 minutes to cover that distance their average speed would be 950 mph or about mach 1.3. Since they're starting from 0mph, accelerating and climbing to altitude their maximum speed on the trip would have to exceed mach 1.3 and since that's higher than the max. sea level speed of a clean aircraft, let alone one with external fuel tanks and missiles, we can safely say that an F-15 can't possibly cover the distance from Otis to the WTC in 12 minutes from a standing start.
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Old 14th November 2012, 04:11 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Reactor drone View Post
we can safely say that an F-15 can't possibly cover the distance from Otis to the WTC in 12 minutes from a standing start.
We've been safely saying that since the first page
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Old 14th November 2012, 04:57 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
We've been safely saying that since the first page
This is the first page.
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Old 14th November 2012, 06:25 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by thedopefishlives View Post
This is the first page.
Oh, I meant first post
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Old 14th November 2012, 06:59 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Oh, I meant first post
It's OK. It's hard to keep track of which tread it is we're repeating this stuff to him in. You would almost think he'd catch on and actually do some research.
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Old 14th November 2012, 07:20 PM   #31
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Were the Otis fighters armed? I was given to understand they weren't, which would make sense.
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Old 14th November 2012, 07:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Were the Otis fighters armed? I was given to understand they weren't, which would make sense.
No, it wouldn't make sense as they were on Air Defense Alert. All fighters on Alert are fully armed and ready to go. Those that aren't on alert may or may not be armed. Most likely not, but in some cases they will have their cannon loaded. It would be unusual if they were ever loaded with missiles if not on alert...
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Old 14th November 2012, 08:24 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by FrankHT View Post
There's no doubt that the Otis fighters were originally directed towards the NYC area. That's on that's NORAD tapes channel 2. You claim the diversion was for the FAA to clear the air space.

Can you tell me exactly when the FAA did this and gave the pilots clearance? Source it please. You wont be able to because the FAA didn't.

The pilots took the initiative and did it on their own telling the FAA & NEADS they NEEDED (were going to go with or without clearance) to go to NY.

Why? Because they saw (from within their holding pattern) 175 strike WTC 2.

You claim the Otis fighters could not have made it to NYC in time to stop Flight 175,but this is simply wrong. By the Military's own admission the flight time for an F15 from Otis to NYC is 10-12 minutes. They were scrambled at 8:52 and flew from TAKE OFF "Full blower all the way","Supersonic"[Quotes-Col. Duffy].8:52 to 9:03 (time WTC 2 was hit)=11 minutes! yet the Commission claims they still 100 miles out from NYC at 9:03 ! They barely moved ! How do explain that?

You can pick your poison,but there's a problem here. Either the pilots are lying or the scramble didn't happen at the time we were told or the holding pattern came before 9:03. Either way the official story is false.
Frank, why do you continue to try to prove that you have no knowledge about aviation, especially military aviation? We already know this from your previous posts

I have separated your post into different sections to make it easier to respond to.

Letís see, takeoff on runway 05, climb to assigned altitude, turn right to enter W-105, turn to a westerly heading, fly south of the Long Island coast toward NYC. How much more direct would you like to go? Unless you donít mind clobbering a commercial airliner that is going 4 times slower than you.

Didnít the FAA call Otis? If they did, wouldnít you expect that they would know that the Otis jets would be showing up on their radar screens shortly? Boston Center is informed of the scramble protocol at Otis, including the transponder codes they would be using during a military operation.

There is a big difference between needing to get to NYC, and going there with or without a clearance. Do you really believe that two Air Force staff officers were going to jeopardize their military careers by breaking FAA regulations?

So you think that the Otis pilots actually seen Flight 175 hit the south tower, from a hundred miles out? Thatís BS, and you know it.

Could the Otis jets have made it to NYC before Flt. 175 struck the south tower? The answer is no, and you have been told this several times by several members. Prove that we are wrong, and show your work.
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Old 14th November 2012, 11:22 PM   #34
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Old 15th November 2012, 03:24 AM   #35
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Couple of nitpicks:

Originally Posted by fess View Post
Unless you donít mind clobbering a commercial airliner that is going 4 times slower than you.
I think you exaggerate. 4 times faster may be top speed those fighters might attain, but even going supersonic with afterburner, they'd be unlikely to go 2 times faster than the airliners.

Originally Posted by fess View Post
So you think that the Otis pilots actually seen Flight 175 hit the south tower, from a hundred miles out? Thatís BS, and you know it.
Pilot Duffy has related how they did indeed have a pretty clear view of Manhattan and the burning North Tower from their position in the holding pattern, 70 miles out. It was, after all, a brilliant, sunny day, and they were pretty high up. Visibility was excellent. I think he said he did not, as a matter of fact, see the impact (fireball) of UA175, but they conceivably could have.
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Old 15th November 2012, 07:45 AM   #36
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Again, I find myself baffled by the point of this thread (like so many others began by the TM).
What difference would it have made if the AF fighters were 70 miles out or doing barrel rolls in front of the airliners?
As far as I know, no AF fighter has ever downed a civilian airliner over US airspace. Assuming they were even armed, what would it matter? I cannot conceive of a military commander giving the order to fire, especially over a densely populated area, and I really have a problem believing that a pilot would obey the order if given.
Am I, once again, missing something?
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:04 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Chuck Guiteau View Post
Am I, once again, missing something?
You're missing a "truthers" 20/20 hindsight. These pilots had to know the US was under attack and they could do whatever they wanted. They had to know where all the hijacked planes were (and how many). Screw the rules, we're saving the world.

ETA: In case you didn't know. If you shoot down a plane, it disappears and you advance to the next level.
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:14 AM   #38
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Chuck, the most that you might miss is something that Paul Schreyer, that at least doesn't fly directly into the face of reason: One thing that these military pilots can do, and occasionally do, when they intercept civilian planes in various kinds of incidents is to look into the cockpit and try and find clues as to what's happening. This way, for example, it was determined that the flight crew of ... what was that pro golfer's name ... this pro-golfer's pribate jet were unconscious in their seats (air pressure had suddenly dropped), and that's why the plane just went straight on and no one responded to anything. So they escorted that plane till it ran out of fuel, and might have considered a shoot-down if it had threatened to crash into a city. Which it didn't.

So if a truther wants to claim that it wasn't the named 19 AQ terrorists that steered these planes, but urrrrrr Mossad agents instead, or autopilot, then diverting the fighters would have helped to cover that up.

Sure, it's as mad a scenario as anything else, but at least it makes more sense internally.
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:37 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Couple of nitpicks:


I think you exaggerate. 4 times faster may be top speed those fighters might attain, but even going supersonic with afterburner, they'd be unlikely to go 2 times faster than the airliners.


Pilot Duffy has related how they did indeed have a pretty clear view of Manhattan and the burning North Tower from their position in the holding pattern, 70 miles out. It was, after all, a brilliant, sunny day, and they were pretty high up. Visibility was excellent. I think he said he did not, as a matter of fact, see the impact (fireball) of UA175, but they conceivably could have.
Hey, if FrankHT can exaggerate, so can I.

However, any aircraft (commercial) landing in NYC, this close to their destination, would not be cruising along at .82. And if they were below 10,000 feet, they wouldnít be over 250knts.

Being able to see NYC from 70 miles out, at altitude, with a huge amount of smoke in the air, is one thing. Being able to spot a 757/767 at 70 miles is another. FrankHT stated that the Otis pilots watched Flt. 175 hit the south tower. In order to keep my yellow flags at a minimum, I will just say I believe this to be highly improbable.
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:44 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by fess View Post
Hey, if FrankHT can exaggerate, so can I.

However, any aircraft (commercial) landing in NYC, this close to their destination, would not be cruising along at .82. And if they were below 10,000 feet, they wouldnít be over 250knts.
Considerations only valid for responsible airline pilots trying to obey by the rules - aberrant, rogue aircraft can do what they want, which includes speeding.

Originally Posted by fess View Post
Being able to see NYC from 70 miles out, at altitude, with a huge amount of smoke in the air, is one thing. Being able to spot a 757/767 at 70 miles is another. FrankHT stated that the Otis pilots watched Flt. 175 hit the south tower. In order to keep my yellow flags at a minimum, I will just say I believe this to be highly improbable.
That is certainly correct. The plane was much smaller, and had much less contrast against background, than the fireball and smoke trails they produced. That's why I specifically mentioned the fireball when I said "he did not, as a matter of fact, see the impact (fireball)".

I haven't actually read FrankH's posts, so I don't know why he would have brought that issue up, and whether he meant "see plane just before impact" or "see firework effects from impact".
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