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Tags civil rights , gender identity , law enforcement issues , privacy , transgender

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Old 13th November 2012, 05:21 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
This is stupid. When will we learn that being naked isn't the same as being sexual? This country is so repressed that simply seeing a nipple-slip is evil, and a penis even worse.
I don't think this attitude is confined to this country.


Can you name a country with a different attitude? Is there any country in the world where males and females of all ages routinely encounter each other naked in non-sexual situations? Where bathrooms or shower facilities are not segregated by gender?
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Old 13th November 2012, 05:24 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Also what about fathers taking say a three year old girl to a pool? Which locker room do they use?
A three year old girl and her father would use the family locker room.
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Old 13th November 2012, 05:31 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
A three year old girl and her father would use the family locker room.
And if there is only a mens and womens at the pool?
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Old 13th November 2012, 05:32 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think this attitude is confined to this country.


Can you name a country with a different attitude? Is there any country in the world where males and females of all ages routinely encounter each other naked in non-sexual situations? Where bathrooms or shower facilities are not segregated by gender?
Are we talking modern or traditional? Modesty seems to have spread to some areas with modernity.
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Old 13th November 2012, 05:44 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And if there is only a mens and womens at the pool?
Then they haven't gotten around to doing the renovations required by national policy.


(Disclaimer: I'm just repeating what they told me at the local Y. Treat this with all the credibility you expect from nonprofessional internet sources.)
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Old 13th November 2012, 05:57 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Then they haven't gotten around to doing the renovations required by national policy.


(Disclaimer: I'm just repeating what they told me at the local Y. Treat this with all the credibility you expect from nonprofessional internet sources.)
I was meaning it in a larger sense than just the Y. Lots of pools have only two locker rooms. So I was wondering what those who take serious issue with this think parents of young kids should do then?
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Old 13th November 2012, 06:09 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Just what is the correct nomenclature/pronoun for a cross-dresser male pretending to be lesbian?

<second sentence redacted>
I would have thought it's generally polite to refer to someone by the term they wish to be referred to as.
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Old 13th November 2012, 06:10 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I was meaning it in a larger sense than just the Y. Lots of pools have only two locker rooms. So I was wondering what those who take serious issue with this think parents of young kids should do then?
In my experience, the gender of the adult is what determines what facilities to use. Three year olds are basically neutral in gender.

There are very few people who worry about their small children seeing naked adults or being seen naked by adults. If they are still small enough that they cannot go unaccompanied into a public restroom or locker room, then it probably doesn't matter. That isn't the issue here. The issue is that there's a girl with a penis insisting on hanging out in a place where there are naked women and girls, and that creeps people out a bit.

And, there are some people who can't get over the fact that if they see a penis, they think there might be a man attached to that penis. I know. I know. But it's hard to overcome centuries of ignorance.
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Old 13th November 2012, 06:18 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I was meaning it in a larger sense than just the Y. Lots of pools have only two locker rooms. So I was wondering what those who take serious issue with this think parents of young kids should do then?
They probably think the world ought to stop on its axis to cater to them. When in history did we become such pushovers for parents? Just because somebody popped out a miniature human we're supposed to always, always, always think of them? If the delicate little angels are too delicate for the pool maybe they just shouldn't be brought there. Locker rooms = nudity. Nude people = some anatomical surprises. This is reality. Parents who insist on shielding their children from reality at all times and all places are out of luck. Or they can build their own pool for tender children only, with individual locker rooms for each child, with their names on them! In glitter!
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Old 13th November 2012, 06:20 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Just what is the correct nomenclature/pronoun for a cross-dresser male pretending to be lesbian?

<second sentence redacted>
If the person is a transwoman then the term would be SHE. If not sure of gender the pronoun would be "they."
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Old 13th November 2012, 06:22 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In my experience, the gender of the adult is what determines what facilities to use. Three year olds are basically neutral in gender.

There are very few people who worry about their small children seeing naked adults or being seen naked by adults. If they are still small enough that they cannot go unaccompanied into a public restroom or locker room, then it probably doesn't matter. That isn't the issue here. The issue is that there's a girl with a penis insisting on hanging out in a place where there are naked women and girls, and that creeps people out a bit.
Yea it is all about making a comfortable space for them. Rather like keeping out gays and blacks from mens locker rooms.
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Old 13th November 2012, 06:32 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think this attitude is confined to this country.


Can you name a country with a different attitude? Is there any country in the world where males and females of all ages routinely encounter each other naked in non-sexual situations? Where bathrooms or shower facilities are not segregated by gender?
I have lived in Korea for about 15 years and they are nuttier about nudity than the States.

I remember seeing a documentary on a New Guienian Tribe where the males wore traditional penis sheaths. Although they cover almost nothing I remember they stated that they felt terribly naked without them.

All the far forward progressives on here love to rail on about how they are immune to cultural norms have yet to post nude photos of themselves.
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Old 13th November 2012, 07:12 AM   #93
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Not caring about being around naked people has nothing to do with not posting private and forbidden pictures at the demands of ********.
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Old 13th November 2012, 08:09 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
This is tragic, it really is, but why not just install unisex facilities for TS/TG ppl so that they can dress and live in peace? I see other ppl shooting down this proposal, but it seems to be the most sensible thing to do.
You could as well as wear a tshirt "i am a TS/TG" which hark back to the issue of it potentially being a problem due to bigot attacking them/murdering them/ostracizing them.

The real solution is to have individual changing "single" cabine. Then your age, gender, sex, do not matter at all. But that is expansive.
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Old 13th November 2012, 08:28 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not nationally. I know a man who needs to go into the ladies room sometimes because that is where the changing station is. As a gay man I am sure he is not perving on the women.

Also what about fathers taking say a three year old girl to a pool? Which locker room do they use?
As an aside, I didn't realize until recently that there are places that have changing stations in the women's room but not the men's. I just assumed that anywhere I didn't see one in the men's, there wasn't one in the women's. To my credit, at least locally it does seem to be the case. It is where I work, and at the Mall, and all the big box stores in the area.

When I found out it wasn't the norm I got curious and started asking friends I was with. I know some of you were worried that I was peaking into the women's bathroom, but we all know that would be terribly wrong.
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Old 13th November 2012, 10:46 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Just what is the correct nomenclature/pronoun for a cross-dresser male pretending to be lesbian?

<second sentence redacted>
He.

Are you suggesting the woman in this story is cross-dressing male pretending to be a lesbian?

That is incorrect.
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Old 13th November 2012, 11:51 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They probably think the world ought to stop on its axis to cater to them. When in history did we become such pushovers for parents? Just because somebody popped out a miniature human we're supposed to always, always, always think of them? If the delicate little angels are too delicate for the pool maybe they just shouldn't be brought there. Locker rooms = nudity. Nude people = some anatomical surprises. This is reality. Parents who insist on shielding their children from reality at all times and all places are out of luck. Or they can build their own pool for tender children only, with individual locker rooms for each child, with their names on them! In glitter!
I love this guy. You're ******* hilarious.

Edited by jhunter1163:  Edited for Rule 10. Do not attempt to bypass the autocensor.

Last edited by jhunter1163; 13th November 2012 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 13th November 2012, 05:26 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They probably think the world ought to stop on its axis to cater to them. When in history did we become such pushovers for parents? Just because somebody popped out a miniature human we're supposed to always, always, always think of them? If the delicate little angels are too delicate for the pool maybe they just shouldn't be brought there. Locker rooms = nudity. Nude people = some anatomical surprises. This is reality. Parents who insist on shielding their children from reality at all times and all places are out of luck. Or they can build their own pool for tender children only, with individual locker rooms for each child, with their names on them! In glitter!
As a parent, I approve this message.
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Old 13th November 2012, 05:41 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Piscivore View Post
As a parent, I approve this message.
But but... boobies and a penis on one person. Those children will be scarred for life and won't be able to function in society ever again.....

THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
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Old 13th November 2012, 05:49 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
If the person is a transwoman then the term would be SHE. If not sure of gender the pronoun would be "they."
... Or "he".
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Old 13th November 2012, 05:55 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
I love this guy. You're ******* hilarious.

Edited by jhunter1163:  Edited for Rule 10. Do not attempt to bypass the autocensor.
My bad.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
But but... boobies and a penis on one person. Those children will be scarred for life and won't be able to function in society ever again.....

THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
Anyone can guess where this came from, WITHOUT looking it up?

Quote:
I had hitherto concealed the secret of my dress, in order to distinguish myself, as much as possible, from that cursed race of Yahoos; but now I found it in vain to do so any longer. Besides, I considered that my clothes and shoes would soon wear out, which already were in a declining condition, and must be supplied by some contrivance from the hides of Yahoos, or other brutes; whereby the whole secret would be known. I therefore told my master, “that in the country whence I came, those of my kind always covered their bodies with the hairs of certain animals prepared by art, as well for decency as to avoid the inclemencies of air, both hot and cold; of which, as to my own person, I would give him immediate conviction, if he pleased to command me: only desiring his excuse, if I did not expose those parts that nature taught us to conceal.” He said, “my discourse was all very strange, but especially the last part; for he could not understand, why nature should teach us to conceal what nature had given; that neither himself nor family were ashamed of any parts of their bodies; but, however, I might do as I pleased.” Whereupon I first unbuttoned my coat, and pulled it off. I did the same with my waistcoat. I drew off my shoes, stockings, and breeches. I let my shirt down to my waist, and drew up the bottom; fastening it like a girdle about my middle, to hide my nakedness.

Last edited by Nihilianth; 13th November 2012 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 13th November 2012, 11:21 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Also what about fathers taking say a three year old girl to a pool? Which locker room do they use?
Not sure a public pool is an appropriate place to take a toddler. Particularly not if you're not the same sex as the child and therefore can't accompany them into the appropriate changing room; but generally speaking as well.
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Old 14th November 2012, 04:38 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Not sure a public pool is an appropriate place to take a toddler. Particularly not if you're not the same sex as the child and therefore can't accompany them into the appropriate changing room; but generally speaking as well.
Why?
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Old 14th November 2012, 04:50 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Not sure a public pool is an appropriate place to take a toddler. Particularly not if you're not the same sex as the child and therefore can't accompany them into the appropriate changing room; but generally speaking as well.
Why?

And where else would you go?

We only have a public pool here. And stalls to change in. With larger ones for families and the disabled.
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Old 14th November 2012, 07:32 AM   #105
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The problem with taking very young children to public pools is their lack of bowel and bladder control.
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Old 14th November 2012, 08:04 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
The problem with taking very young children to public pools is their lack of bowel and bladder control.
You can get swimming nappies now. For infants and toddlers. None for adults as far as I can see though.
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Old 14th November 2012, 08:13 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
My bad.



Anyone can guess where this came from, WITHOUT looking it up?
Gullivers Travels, voyage to the country of the Houhnhymns (Sp? ços I didn't look it up).

Leaving Yahoo in the quote is a bit of a giveaway.
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Old 14th November 2012, 08:20 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
The problem with taking very young children to public pools is their lack of bowel and bladder control.
This, primarily; also, their excessive vulnerability to injury, coupled with a large crowd and a big concrete hole full of water's excessive capability of causing injury. Even if you use water diapers, like driving a car, it's the other people you have to really worry about.

Too much of a chance for injury and accident; a higher-than-otherwise chance for disease. Wait until they're older. Meantime you'll have to live without a pool; millions do it their whole lives without ill effect. Have them run through a lawn sprinkler or sommat.
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Old 14th November 2012, 08:33 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This, primarily; also, their excessive vulnerability to injury, coupled with a large crowd and a big concrete hole full of water's excessive capability of causing injury. Even if you use water diapers, like driving a car, it's the other people you have to really worry about.

Too much of a chance for injury and accident; a higher-than-otherwise chance for disease. Wait until they're older. Meantime you'll have to live without a pool; millions do it their whole lives without ill effect. Have them run through a lawn sprinkler or sommat.
Ah. We have a separate pool for them. It is shallow and heated. They have to be accompanied by an adult too.

The adult pool is dangerous and freezing. I have been kicked in the head there before and the first time I went in as a child my lips turned blue. Favouritism!
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Old 14th November 2012, 09:32 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
The problem with taking very young children to public pools is their lack of bowel and bladder control.
If you are afraid of that then you should forbid "toddler" below the age of 14 to go into the swimming pool, and some adult "toddler" too which aren't half arsed to go to the toilet.
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Old 14th November 2012, 08:25 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This, primarily; also, their excessive vulnerability to injury, coupled with a large crowd and a big concrete hole full of water's excessive capability of causing injury.
Every municipal facility I've been at that allows toddlers confines them to a less dangerous area, like a kiddie pool or splash fountain, but they share a common dressing and showering area.

But toddlers aren't really an issue. They go into the dressing room with the parent that is with them. They are sexless, so it really doesn't matter what room they're in. When they are older, things get a little bit trickier.
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Old 14th November 2012, 09:47 PM   #112
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I like DreamingNaiad's idea of closing off the locker room to adults for 10 minutes while they change.

It's not the actual trans people I worry about; it's those would would pass themselves off as trans people.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Something that seems to have been brushed over is that a transitioning TGW would not look like a man in many ways, especially if they are on hormones which would change their body shape and cause breast growth. Is it fair to make a person that believes that they are a woman, and who has a body that is changing to a woman’s, with the exception of the lower half, to be placed in a male environment that would not only be high judgemental, but also dangerous to them?

As to straight non-trans men pretending to be trans just to ogle naked women, how many would go through the getting a female hair style, clothing, drug and hormone programs, growing breasts, etc, that trans women do just for that? I doubt it would be that many.
Yeah, but a man wouldn't have to do all that just to use a bathroom or locker room. They could put on a wig, make-up, dress or other feminine-stereotyped clothing, stuff a bra for chest, etc. A lot of work, but there are those who would find it worth it. As the law presently stands, the person's use of the gendered facilities is not contingent on their psychologists' opinions or whether they've got a prescription for hormones or surgery or legal sex change, but on their stated gender identity.

I understand that trans people face a lot of complicated situations and dangers from being around men, and that it's not as simple as "go use the men's room". I don't believe the concern is based off an irrational fear of trans people, but on a rational fear of the fraction of men who would exploit the flexible interpretation of the rule. Requiring a legal gender change would resolve this issue (by largely screening out men faking a trans status without requiring something absurdly invasive like extensive psychological/endocrinological paperwork checks for those who raise flags, translating to those who don't pass well), except that it would exclude people during the real-life test.
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Old 14th November 2012, 10:21 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Mercurial Artism View Post
It's not the actual trans people I worry about; it's those would would pass themselves off as trans people.
I've heard of that scenario for my entire life, in literally every discussion on trans people I've ever been in. One thing I've never seen: a man who pretends to be a transwoman in order to assault women in the locker room.

How often does that actually happen?
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:05 AM   #114
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Did Mercurial Artism say they were in there to assault women or just as a voyeur?

If the latter, they probably wouldn't even get caught...
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Old 15th November 2012, 02:40 PM   #115
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Once it's cut off then you can use the girls' locker room.

Until then, if it comes down to the psychological health of an adult vs. a child, I'll go with the child.
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Old 15th November 2012, 02:45 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Once it's cut off then you can use the girls' locker room.

Until then, if it comes down to the psychological health of an adult vs. a child, I'll go with the child.
Yes, because seeing a penis always scars a child for life.
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Old 15th November 2012, 07:46 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Gullivers Travels, voyage to the country of the Houhnhymns (Sp? ços I didn't look it up).

Leaving Yahoo in the quote is a bit of a giveaway.
I thought about that. I did it on purpose, actually. +1 for you, sir!
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Old 15th November 2012, 07:52 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Every municipal facility I've been at that allows toddlers confines them to a less dangerous area, like a kiddie pool or splash fountain, but they share a common dressing and showering area.

But toddlers aren't really an issue. They go into the dressing room with the parent that is with them. They are sexless, so it really doesn't matter what room they're in. When they are older, things get a little bit trickier.
When they get older, it's trickier? Why? I figure at around the age of 7 or 8, they wouldn't necessarily need much help anymore, but I am going to definitely supervise them. I don't care who people think they are. If I want to take my children to a public gym or pool, I am going to accompany them. Whether or not they have "sexless" or "family" locker rooms, or male-only/female-only locker rooms. I am taking my kids where I want to take my kids. And yes, I do fully intend on introducing my children to water at the earliest possible time.

Obviously, if they have a "sexless" or "family" locker rooms, I will use those over any others. In case a facility is lacking in those rooms, I will take my kids into the appropriate locker room. If I have a girl, I will probably take them into the male locker room if she is under....say....3. And if older than 3, I'll take her into the female locker room. Of course, I will alert the staff of the facility that I have a little girl with me first, because I am fully aware of people like checkmite that exist out there that would have have me immediately arrested and thrown into jail. But at least there is this neat little thing called "due process" in this country.

It is ridiculous that someone would make such a statement:

Not sure a public pool is an appropriate place to take a toddler. Particularly not if you're not the same sex as the child and therefore can't accompany them into the appropriate changing room; but generally speaking as well.


I guess I am lucky that I have twin boys, instead of a girl. I just might get hauled off in handcuffs for having the GALL to take my kid into a changing room with me. Jeez.

Once again, no wonder the rest of the world thinks Americans are nuts.

Originally Posted by Mercurial Artism View Post
I like DreamingNaiad's idea of closing off the locker room to adults for 10 minutes while they change.

It's not the actual trans people I worry about; it's those would would pass themselves off as trans people.



Yeah, but a man wouldn't have to do all that just to use a bathroom or locker room. They could put on a wig, make-up, dress or other feminine-stereotyped clothing, stuff a bra for chest, etc. A lot of work, but there are those who would find it worth it. As the law presently stands, the person's use of the gendered facilities is not contingent on their psychologists' opinions or whether they've got a prescription for hormones or surgery or legal sex change, but on their stated gender identity.

I understand that trans people face a lot of complicated situations and dangers from being around men, and that it's not as simple as "go use the men's room". I don't believe the concern is based off an irrational fear of trans people, but on a rational fear of the fraction of men who would exploit the flexible interpretation of the rule. Requiring a legal gender change would resolve this issue (by largely screening out men faking a trans status without requiring something absurdly invasive like extensive psychological/endocrinological paperwork checks for those who raise flags, translating to those who don't pass well), except that it would exclude people during the real-life test.
*SIGH*

Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
I've heard of that scenario for my entire life, in literally every discussion on trans people I've ever been in. One thing I've never seen: a man who pretends to be a transwoman in order to assault women in the locker room.

How often does that actually happen?
^ This! Times a million!

I will say, I've heard people actually JOKE about doing that. But never in my life have I ever heard about anyone actually seriously considering it. If they did, they are probably mentally unstable, and probably would do it anyway no matter what the "rules" or "laws" are in place. It's not like locker rooms have security guards sitting in front of them and are gated....

Last edited by Nihilianth; 15th November 2012 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:08 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Yes, because seeing a penis always scars a child for life.
A person with a penis, who doesn't want one, seeing other penii is more of an issue?
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Old 15th November 2012, 11:58 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Once it's cut off then you can use the girls' locker room.

Until then, if it comes down to the psychological health of an adult vs. a child, I'll go with the child.
So acording to you, this person should be using the Men's Locker Room?
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