ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Computers and the Internet
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 8th December 2012, 02:16 AM   #81
Jomante
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 221
I installed windows 8 on a home PC a few months ago. I've had very mixed emotions about it.

There are some things I absolutely love, and some things I hate.

First experience: This was installed on an older system with a pre-vista video card. It was a really good card, but it didn't have the extensions that were added to support Aero. My system was dreadfully slow, and I finally traced it back to the fact that I needed to upgrade the video card despite the fact that Windows 8 does not take advantage of those features. That ticked me off, but I accepted it because it was an older computer so I can't expect miracles. But once I installed the new graphics card, whoa nellie! It was fast! My machine boots in about 10 seconds, and shutdown is similar.

I love the parental controls. One thing at my house is that the kids fight over the computer. I told them to restrict their time on it, but they never did, always complained that others were using up more time and so on. Windows 8 has a built in parental controls that allows me to control how much time can be spent on each account. Very cool. And when the kid runs out of time I can extend it if he/she is doing homework for instance. I also like getting the report of where they spend most of their time (websites).

I dislike the amount of hiding of everything. To this day I still have to do something two or three times before I get the hidden icons on the right (I always end up right clicking, left clicking, and ending up with the "all apps" instead, I just haven't gotten used to that). I particularly dislike IE hiding the URL, but I understand the purpose (to maximize screen). I don't like that some websites don't work in IE on metro, but works fine on IE on the desktop. Eventually I installed chrome and I don't worry about it anymore.

I discovered that I could get to some of the start menu items that have been hidden by RIGHT clicking in the lower left corner. That was very non-obvious and took a while. Adding a printer, I gave up looking where to go and went to the search bar and just typed in "add printer". I hated the way the search works, but now that I understand it, I actually quite like it. I was looking for something in the microsoft store and didn't realize that I could use the same right bar search to find it (I thought they had left the search feature out and was sorely disappointed).

Shutdown was awful. I don't know about the settings option previously mentioned, what I always did was logged out, clicked on the screen so I could log back in, then selected the shutdown button. That's only when I forget that I can just push the power off button and the computer will do a proper shutdown by itself. Seems a nuisance though to do it via the mouse.

I don't like scrolling to get to the items that used to be one click on the start button, but there are typically only a handful I actually use so for the most part now I only have to click on the icon and away it goes.

Video playing on my machine was really bad. It wouldn't handle my h264 movies from the DLNA server that my machine in windows XP handled without a glitch.

I don't like that desktop apps tab differently between windows than the metro apps. They should be more integrated.

It seems to me that Microsoft is seeing the end of the PC for consumers (will still be around for producers) as it gets replaced by the tablet, so Windows 8 seems like a bad move, but ultimately will help them move people in the direction that the tablets are going. Specifically to a more internet connected and devices where it doesn't matter what chipset is on it. It's a gamble for them, but we'll have to see how it pays off.
Jomante is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 04:29 AM   #82
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 35,997
Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
I'm using an EEE 1000H with XP and wondering about the same things... like, when it finally wears out, will I be able to replace it with something that is equally functional?

For me, 7 felt like a sideways move in terms of the UI. Now along comes 8 and it appears they have decided to migrate desktop users to a UI that is optimized for phones and tablets. I don't see how that makes sense.

But, what I'm hearing is that it is faster and leaner under the hood, and it can be skinned with a desktop UI. Is that a fair assessment?
I was unhappy with Win7 at first mainly because I had learned to navigate around XP fairly well and knew many of the names of commands and system files for it.

The only real pain about Win7 is that you have to click one more level of the UI for almost all the setting, which is really not that bad.

We deployed Win7 at both my schools last year and one advantage is that there is no longer an hour of updates to run (on XP SP3) on reimages. The other advantage is that the kernel and system seem to be more robust in terms of malware. One downside is that the malware that effects Win7 seems to be much harder to deal with. I really like the way that Win7 and the WDS system works to deploy images, file sharing is okay as are privileges.

So I am one who went from sceptical to being content.

I am think Windows 8 will be like Vista or Windows 2000, an intermediate step in marketing and OS contruction.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 05:49 AM   #83
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 67,844
Originally Posted by Jomante View Post
I installed windows 8 on a home PC a few months ago. I've had very mixed emotions about it.

There are some things I absolutely love, and some things I hate.

First experience: ...snip....

It seems to me that Microsoft is seeing the end of the PC for consumers (will still be around for producers) as it gets replaced by the tablet, so Windows 8 seems like a bad move, but ultimately will help them move people in the direction that the tablets are going. Specifically to a more internet connected and devices where it doesn't matter what chipset is on it. It's a gamble for them, but we'll have to see how it pays off.
Apart from the parental controls very similar experience to me when I first moved to Win8! I bet you'll find it all becomes second nature after a little while.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 09:53 AM   #84
bigred
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 14,831
Smile

Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I don't know why they couldn't have included a "classic mode" with the (IMO quite good) interface that has been fairly consistent clear back to 95 and NT 4.0.
Because it makes sense and users would love it. This is MS we're talking about, remember?
bigred is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 10:08 AM   #85
Rrose Selavy
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
 
Rrose Selavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,320
What always amazes me is that theses seemingly obvious issues get past the extensive beta testing that surely MS must do. They must arise but somehow they feel it unnecessary to tweak to rectify. Yet they could avoid a lot of bad publicity by the time they launch with perhaps seemingly minor changes compared to the improvements a new OS might offer.
Windows 7 is actually a very good OS as XP was held affectionately with many but why do they consistently miscalculate the behaviour and reaction of many users and reviewers?
User Account Control was an example in Vista. A good idea perhaps in theory but terrible integration.

Last edited by Rrose Selavy; 8th December 2012 at 10:14 AM.
Rrose Selavy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 11:32 AM   #86
Charlie Wilkes
Illuminator
 
Charlie Wilkes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,428
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I was unhappy with Win7 at first mainly because I had learned to navigate around XP fairly well and knew many of the names of commands and system files for it.

The only real pain about Win7 is that you have to click one more level of the UI for almost all the setting, which is really not that bad.

We deployed Win7 at both my schools last year and one advantage is that there is no longer an hour of updates to run (on XP SP3) on reimages. The other advantage is that the kernel and system seem to be more robust in terms of malware. One downside is that the malware that effects Win7 seems to be much harder to deal with. I really like the way that Win7 and the WDS system works to deploy images, file sharing is okay as are privileges.

So I am one who went from sceptical to being content.

I am think Windows 8 will be like Vista or Windows 2000, an intermediate step in marketing and OS contruction.
I have a desktop with Windows 7. I find the UI workable, neither better nor worse than XP or for that matter Windows 95. But XP can handle large hard drives and USB, whereas 95 could not. 7 can handle >4 gb of RAM whereas XP cannot.

Nobody pro or con on Windows 8 is discussing significant new capabilities. It's all about the UI. Those who defend the UI do so by pointing out that it can do the same things as earlier versions of Windows, once you learn how.

MS has apparently decided that serving their core market of desktop users is less important than serving a device market in which they have yet to gain a significant share.
Charlie Wilkes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 01:50 PM   #87
Merko
Graduate Poster
 
Merko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,901
Windows 8 seems to me like a much bigger disaster than Vista. Vista was just a bad release, then with Windows 7 made Windows users happy again, no great harm done.

What is painfully obvious with Windows 8 is that it really needed to come in two versions, one for the desktop and one for tablets. It could perhaps be the same underlying system, with different configuration. That would have required some good architecture to pull off but if they did it right it might have been a game changer.

So, reality is that Windows has maybe 95% of the desktop market and less than 5% (to be charitable) of the tablet market. Clearly Microsoft see this as a problem, so what do they do? They engineer their entire operating system for the tablet and force everyone to use that. And it's horrible to use on the desktop (I have not tried it on a tablet, since I haven't heard of anyone who owns a Windows tablet). Somehow they think this will increase their market share in tablets. My guess is that in the best case for Microsoft, people will just keep buying Windows 7 and they can fix this for their next version.

But the problem is that since in my opinion Windows 8 is just fundamentally unsuitable for desktops, it might actually cause Microsoft to lose their dominant position in the desktop market. Because, when they force people to use something that is not just horrible, but also certainly quite different than what they are used to, people might just get something else altogether. I guess MS Office was the great reason people could not consider any other systems, but these days many have already switched to Google Docs, and then if you're checking out some new systems in the store and the Windows machine is actually the *least* familiar option even for a Windows user, more people may end up with something else. So I'm not saying Windows will disappear but I would not be surprised to see other systems gaining to maybe 20-30% in the desktop market.

And the thing about the tablet market is that even if Windows 8 is the best thing ever, and again I don't really know, it seems it has already been judged as a failure because of the desktop debacle. So, again even if it really is better than Android and IOS, my feeling is that it will not get a significant market share and developers targeting tablets will not support it much.
Merko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 02:42 PM   #88
Squeegee Beckenheim
Philosopher
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 9,097
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
But the problem is that since in my opinion Windows 8 is just fundamentally unsuitable for desktops, it might actually cause Microsoft to lose their dominant position in the desktop market.
I don't see that happening. Windows has been the standard for way too many years. Almost every PC program written thus far has primarily been written to run on Windows. People use Windows because A) it's what computers come with and B) all of the software they want to use woks on it.

If someone were to try to take over the market they'd have to get computer manufacturers to supply their new computers with the new OS, and they'd have to ensure that their OS was compatible with all the software that's compatible with Windows. The first won't happen because Joe Bloggs doesn't know anything other than Windows and isn't going to buy a new machine that doesn't have it on it, therefore manufacturers and retailers aren't going to supply machines with a different OS on for fear they won't sell. The second is a mammoth task which seems unlikely. The best that could be hoped for is a different OS which can run a Windows emulator. Which rather defeats the object.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 02:43 PM   #89
Soapy Sam
NLH
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 28,056
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I like a clean desktop. Here's mine:
Attachment 27247
Yep, when I say clean, I mean CLEAN.
Mine is a bit darker.
Soapy Sam is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 03:30 PM   #90
Rrose Selavy
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
 
Rrose Selavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,320
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I like a clean desktop. Here's mine:




Attachment 27247Yep, when I say clean, I mean CLEAN.
I think you''ll find that's just a Blue Screen Of Death but without all the useful other stuff ......
Rrose Selavy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 03:50 PM   #91
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Moderator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 28,727
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I like a clean desktop. Here's mine:
Attachment 27247
Yep, when I say clean, I mean CLEAN.
When are you going to see it, though?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 04:01 PM   #92
Gawdzilla
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
 
Gawdzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri.
Posts: 20,635
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I like a clean desktop. Here's mine:
Attachment 27247
Yep, when I say clean, I mean CLEAN.
Ah, the blue screen of death reductio ad absurdum.
__________________
World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources
Hyperwar, WWII Military History
Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.
Gawdzilla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 07:11 PM   #93
Charlie Wilkes
Illuminator
 
Charlie Wilkes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,428
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't see that happening. Windows has been the standard for way too many years. Almost every PC program written thus far has primarily been written to run on Windows. People use Windows because A) it's what computers come with and B) all of the software they want to use woks on it.

If someone were to try to take over the market they'd have to get computer manufacturers to supply their new computers with the new OS, and they'd have to ensure that their OS was compatible with all the software that's compatible with Windows. The first won't happen because Joe Bloggs doesn't know anything other than Windows and isn't going to buy a new machine that doesn't have it on it, therefore manufacturers and retailers aren't going to supply machines with a different OS on for fear they won't sell. The second is a mammoth task which seems unlikely. The best that could be hoped for is a different OS which can run a Windows emulator. Which rather defeats the object.
Your point B above is why I stick with Windows. But, if MS has decided to push a mobile UI onto the desktop, and people get used to that, what's to stop Android from becoming a desktop OS, especially when $45 buys an Android computer you can plug into your TV?

MS is going to lose the market of people who just want web content, and Windows 8 won't stop that. I think their first priority should be to serve their core market of people who need a full desktop environment. They can build a separate mobile OS if they really think they stand a chance in that market.
Charlie Wilkes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 09:35 PM   #94
Tsukasa Buddha
Other (please write in)
 
Tsukasa Buddha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 12,489
It's a bit sad that the biggest competition that Microsoft has to worry about is its old version. Essentially, they have an "upgrade" incentive but still not to the extent of proper competition.
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn
Tsukasa Buddha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 09:47 PM   #95
Pantaz
Muse
 
Pantaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 945
Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
What always amazes me is that theses seemingly obvious issues get past the extensive beta testing that surely MS must do. They must arise but somehow they feel it unnecessary to tweak to rectify. ...
That's a big part of why I quit beta testing their stuff. By the time they release the Beta, they have pretty much frozen the UI. The beta testing is only to identify the worst of the bugs.
__________________
My decision making skills closely resemble that of a squirrel when crossing the street.
- Bill Murray
Pantaz is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 05:06 AM   #96
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 35,997
Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
MS has apparently decided that serving their core market of desktop users is less important than serving a device market in which they have yet to gain a significant share.
Yup, there have been three or four threads on that. I don't have to worry, by the time I am using it it will be Win 9 or Windows Boingo or whatever they call it. (Personally I will be more interested in the tweaks for Server 2012, as I hope to take the Server 2008 certification this summer)

__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 05:15 AM   #97
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 35,997
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
But the problem is that since in my opinion Windows 8 is just fundamentally unsuitable for desktops, it might actually cause Microsoft to lose their dominant position in the desktop market.
I sort of doubt this will happen, right now a great number of desktops are purchased for corporate environments. Many of which are still running XP, they are likely to make the switch to Win7, mainly to preserve the integrity of their current software structures. Now some corporations may switch to Win8, but I think most will wait for whatever the OS is after Win8.

So while the home desktop market is going to change, more to mobiles/tablets , the corporate environments are likely to stay with Windows Whatever..

Now as the penetration of tablets increases, that will likely be the tipping point for the corporate sales, but there are issues to be resolved. And my opinion is that for at least ten years MS will still dominate the corporate market. I will be learning more about the I Pads and Mac Books, but right now I do not know much about them. I know some of our IT staff do not like the way they side step printer permissions with Bonjour and I don't know if they integrate well with Windows GPO and AD policies. (I know zippidy doodah about that)
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 06:57 AM   #98
Merko
Graduate Poster
 
Merko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,901
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't see that happening. Windows has been the standard for way too many years. Almost every PC program written thus far has primarily been written to run on Windows. People use Windows because A) it's what computers come with and B) all of the software they want to use woks on it.

If someone were to try to take over the market they'd have to get computer manufacturers to supply their new computers with the new OS, and they'd have to ensure that their OS was compatible with all the software that's compatible with Windows.
I don't think that's true anymore. Of course there are people who need some specific program and won't buy anything that does not support that. But most people buying a new computer do not have a ton of software that they already own and that they care about. They buy a new computer because they want to surf the web, write some documents, maybe watch some movies and have their photographs on them etcetera. They want a machine that lets them do this and that seems familiar.

So far, they end up with Windows because that's what has been pre-installed on everything and it seems familiar.

But, my argument is that with Windows 8, it no longer seems familiar. It's very strange. A Mac will seem more familiar even for people who are used to Windows.

So the second question is really: will Windows 8 continue to come pre-installed on everything except for Macs? So far Microsoft have been able to force manufacturers to do this because of their dominant position, offering an all-or-nothing deal. Either they can have Windows on all their machines, or not at all (which used to mean you can't sell anything). So no one could offer a machine running some Linux variant or whatever, because that meant giving up on Windows completely.

But look what is happening now: Acer, Asus, Fujitsu, Lenovo, Olivetti, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony all have Android tablets. Microsoft have not been able to strong-arm these manufacturers to sell Windows and only Windows, like they used to. Of the big brands, only Dell and HP seem to be Windows-only (though I only did a quick check). So can Microsoft really stop these companies from releasing more desktop-oriented machines without Windows? I'm not so sure.
Merko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 06:59 AM   #99
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 67,844
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
Windows 8 seems to me like a much bigger disaster than Vista. ...snip...

But the problem is that since in my opinion Windows 8 is just fundamentally unsuitable for desktops,

...snip...
I have to ask how long have you used Windows 8 for?

I'm asking because you seem to be repeating the canard and meme that the desktop has gone or altered beyond all recognition. For most users the desktop is almost identical (bar some graphical changes) to Windows 7. The biggest change for desktop users will be the moving of the cursor to the side and corners to activate the likes of the charm bar. And even that is not in principle new for a Windows desktop since we've had snap to the edge and the like for a some time.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 07:04 AM   #100
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 67,844
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
...snip...

So far, they end up with Windows because that's what has been pre-installed on everything and it seems familiar.

But, my argument is that with Windows 8, it no longer seems familiar. It's very strange.

...snip...
Did you look at my screen grab? How is that very different? I do agree that the start menu has a new look and feel and that does take some getting use to but I am now firmly convinced that for most users it is an improvement on the old start menu. I suspect part of the problem with the negativity towards the changes is that most reviewers are not "most users".
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 07:10 AM   #101
Merko
Graduate Poster
 
Merko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,901
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I have to ask how long have you used Windows 8 for?

I'm asking because you seem to be repeating the canard and meme that the desktop has gone or altered beyond all recognition. For most users the desktop is almost identical (bar some graphical changes) to Windows 7.
I totally agree that the desktop is very familiar and in fact I'm not saying it's bad in any way. Basically, what I'm arguing is that what Microsoft should have done was to have a desktop version of Windows 8 that was configured to only use the desktop (unless you actively want to use 'Metro', for instance if you're a developer who needs to test the 'Metro' mode).

But they did not. They are forcing the 'Metro' mode on users whether they want it or not. And it's just completely unsuitable for a desktop machine. It seems to me that the plan must be to make users familiar with 'Metro' so that they will then want that on their tablets and phones. But my feeling is that it will work the other way: because 'Metro' is horrible on desktop machines, users will be put off and will not want it on other devices either, even if it might actually be very good on these devices (something I have no opinion about).

Now, maybe you can configure your Windows 8 to not use Metro so much, and you can use it much like Windows 7 and be reasonably happy. But that's for the power user. Ordinary users pretty much use what comes out of the box.
Merko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 07:25 AM   #102
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 67,844
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
...snip...

But they did not. They are forcing the 'Metro' mode on users whether they want it or not. And it's just completely unsuitable for a desktop machine.

...snip...
How do you get that the likes of the new start menu is "unsuitable" for a desktop machine? That and the few controls at the edges of the screen are the only "forced" new stuff.



Quote:
...snip...

Now, maybe you can configure your Windows 8 to not use Metro so much, and you can use it much like Windows 7 and be reasonably happy. But that's for the power user. Ordinary users pretty much use what comes out of the box.
And I think they will be the ones who really appreciate the changes, I've given an example above of my mother and her reaction to Windows 8. I really thought it was going to be a struggle to get her to use Windows 8, she took to it like a duck to water, finds it much, much easier to use than Windows 7.

When I first started using it - early preview in a virtual PC - I thought it was going to be horrendous, after then updating to the consumer preview I even took the plunge of moving my main work PC to a preview version Windows 8 because I am a lot more productive. And the final few tweaks in the released version have only improved on that.

Now I am probably what would be considered a "power user" and yes I don't make much use of any of the metro apps, not suitable for how I tend to use my PC BUT I am certainly not forced to use such apps. Like I said I've even installed Stardock's Start8 - so it's sitting at the bottom right of my screen waiting to pop up - and apart from testing it I've found I've never used it! It really is redundant in Windows 8. (ETA) The only custom alterations I've done is to install Decor8 (also from Stardock) for a few graphical flourish - in the "new" parts of Windows 8. As a "power user" I've not had to tweak Windows 8 at all for how I was and am working.

Sadly I think the well has been truly poisoned and many folk will make their minds up without ever using it.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by Darat; 9th December 2012 at 07:27 AM.
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 07:36 AM   #103
Merko
Graduate Poster
 
Merko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,901
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How do you get that the likes of the new start menu is "unsuitable" for a desktop machine? That and the few controls at the edges of the screen are the only "forced" new stuff.
If by 'start menu' you refer to the 'Metro' screen that you see when you start your machine, well, for one thing it is simply not designed to be a 'start menu' for using Desktop apps. Why? Well, for instance, if you use it to start your web browser, the browser will now start in 'Metro' mode. And you can't even switch your browser to 'desktop' mode, the best you can do is to find the menu option that let's you open the same web page in the desktop version of the browser, which is not the same application. Then when you switch back to 'Metro' to start another application, this other 'Metro' browser will still be there - quite confusing if your intent was to start a desktop browser, not to mention this must be the most confusing way to design a 'start menu' I have ever come across.

Basically, my feeling when using Windows 8 is that it is pretty much a desktop system that is running a tablet emulator. This configuration seems to make all the sense in the world if you're a developer developing tablet apps, but for everyone else it seems so wrong that I'm flabbergasted anyone could think this was a good idea.
Merko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 07:44 AM   #104
icerat
Illuminator
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 4,860
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
If by 'start menu' you refer to the 'Metro' screen that you see when you start your machine, well, for one thing it is simply not designed to be a 'start menu' for using Desktop apps. Why? Well, for instance, if you use it to start your web browser, the browser will now start in 'Metro' mode.
I just clicked on the IE tile on my start screen and it opened IE on the desktop. I don't use IE (I use chrome) but clearly there is a setting for this.

Quote:
Basically, my feeling when using Windows 8 is that it is pretty much a desktop system that is running a tablet emulator.
For the tablet apps at present yes, I agree, but I think they've got a broader goal than that. The "tablet" type apps are also better designed for xbox with kinect, windows phone, and potential other consumer devices (appliance touchscreens, tabletops etc)

Quote:
This configuration seems to make all the sense in the world if you're a developer developing tablet apps, but for everyone else it seems so wrong that I'm flabbergasted anyone could think this was a good idea.
I think they want to get people exposed to the interface, but what they should have done is allowed a choice of installation defaults - ie to tablet apps or desktop apps.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 08:05 AM   #105
Charlie Wilkes
Illuminator
 
Charlie Wilkes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,428
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
It's a bit sad that the biggest competition that Microsoft has to worry about is its old version. Essentially, they have an "upgrade" incentive but still not to the extent of proper competition.
That's exactly right. They don't keep changing the UI because it needs improvement. They do it because they want to keep the upgrade cycle going. If they don't change the UI, people won't perceive a difference and won't upgrade.

What is more, the hardware value equation has changed. In 2002, the average person would get a lot of value from upgrading a 5-year-old computer. In 2012, a 5-year-old machine is still fine for web content. The UI that matters is the browser, and the OS is fungible. If the consumer upgrades at all, it will likely be a tablet. Windows 8, whether it's good, bad or indifferent, won't help MS overcome that secular trend. Surface might, if it is good enough.
Charlie Wilkes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 08:10 AM   #106
varwoche
Philosopher
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,654
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Care to elaborate? As per my previous question (and Darat's confirming response) the desktop environment is virtually identical to Windows 7.

Are you imply windows 7 is a steaming turd or are you talking about something I've missed?
Win8 is the steaming turd due to Metro, aka Windowless 8, a UI optimized for the small screen brought to the large screen.

Yes I know Win8 can be operated in Win7 mode. (Except for how easy it is to accidentally click your way into Metro mode.) What a hugely non-compelling upgrade.

It's like when MS "missed the internet", and went into rabid catch-up mode by trying to make all MS software seem internet aware/friendly. Now, same deal for mobile.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot (and/or Fat Jack)
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 09:23 AM   #107
varwoche
Philosopher
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,654
Win8 commentary from various experts:

Originally Posted by Jakob Nielsen
Disappointing Usability for Both Novice and Power Users
link
Originally Posted by Philip Greenspun
Christmas gift for someone you hate
link
Originally Posted by Paul Allen
I did encounter some puzzling aspects of Windows 8
link
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot (and/or Fat Jack)
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 10:48 AM   #108
Rrose Selavy
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
 
Rrose Selavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,320
Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
That's exactly right. They don't keep changing the UI because it needs improvement. They do it because they want to keep the upgrade cycle going. If they don't change the UI, people won't perceive a difference and won't upgrade.
It may be certainly more difficult to advertise etc improvements that most users cannot see so the interface often gets a makeover , but one difference this time round , unless I misremembered the cost of previous upgrades, is that MS are virtually (!) giving it away, compared to what previous Windows upgrades were.
eg from $14.99 to $39.99
http://www.zdnet.com/windows-8-pro-u...ch-7000000196/
Rrose Selavy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 11:00 AM   #109
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 67,844
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
If by 'start menu' you refer to the 'Metro' screen that you see when you start your machine, well, for one thing it is simply not designed to be a 'start menu' for using Desktop apps. Why? Well, for instance, if you use it to start your web browser, the browser will now start in 'Metro' mode.


...snip...
I don't use IE so I thought I'd go and check and when I click on the IE tile on my start menu it launches IE "desktop". I can;t recall ever altering the tile so I have to assume that is the default.
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
And you can't even switch your browser to 'desktop' mode, the best you can do is to find the menu option that let's you open the same web page in the desktop version of the browser, which is not the same application. Then when you switch back to 'Metro' to start another application, this other 'Metro' browser will still be there - quite confusing if your intent was to start a desktop browser, not to mention this must be the most confusing way to design a 'start menu' I have ever come across.
My Windows simply does not work like you are describing. My start-up routine means I click on the tile for Opera in the start menu, that starts my browser, I then click on my outlook icon (in my task bar o my desktop where it has lived for many a year), and then I'll start doing whatever it is I'm going to do.
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
Basically, my feeling when using Windows 8 is that it is pretty much a desktop system that is running a tablet emulator. This configuration seems to make all the sense in the world if you're a developer developing tablet apps, but for everyone else it seems so wrong that I'm flabbergasted anyone could think this was a good idea.
What seems so wrong that it is obvious? I really don't see it - the fact is that I have a quicker and smoother way to work since I installed Windows 8. I can find my programmes and files even quicker than I could in Windows 7, my standard programs are totally functionally unaffected by the changes in Windows 8.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 11:03 AM   #110
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 67,844
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Win8 is the steaming turd due to Metro, aka Windowless 8, a UI optimized for the small screen brought to the large screen.

Yes I know Win8 can be operated in Win7 mode. (Except for how easy it is to accidentally click your way into Metro mode.) What a hugely non-compelling upgrade.

It's like when MS "missed the internet", and went into rabid catch-up mode by trying to make all MS software seem internet aware/friendly. Now, same deal for mobile.
I don't run my Windows 8 in a "Windows 7 mode", I simply use the appropriate tools for the job as I have done under all previous versions of Windows.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 03:01 PM   #111
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,051
Originally Posted by Darat
Here's an example of my main PC's screen captured just a few minutes ago - I've downsized the image for convenience but I think it still shows what it looks like in use.
You clearly have a different "distraction threshold" than I do. Yikes!

~~ Paul
__________________
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz

RIP Mr. Skinny
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 03:32 PM   #112
Charlie Wilkes
Illuminator
 
Charlie Wilkes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,428
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's like when MS "missed the internet", and went into rabid catch-up mode by trying to make all MS software seem internet aware/friendly. Now, same deal for mobile.
Amen. They are always looking for the future in a rear-view mirror.
Charlie Wilkes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 05:42 PM   #113
Merko
Graduate Poster
 
Merko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,901
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
My Windows simply does not work like you are describing. My start-up routine means I click on the tile for Opera in the start menu, that starts my browser, I then click on my outlook icon (in my task bar o my desktop where it has lived for many a year), and then I'll start doing whatever it is I'm going to do.
So you've gone to great lengths to avoid using what one of the links above appropriately calls the 'start screen' (as opposed to 'start menu'). This shows that you also don't really like the 'start screen'. But alas, that is the standard way Microsoft have chosen.

I understand that if you're a power user and you're willing to spend time to configure everything to your liking, then it might very well to be possible to make the Windows 8 GUI usable and you may appreciate other improvements. I (reluctantly) use Linux, and it has pretty much the same problem - sure if you know what you're doing and you have patience, you can make it do what you want.

But the defaults matter since most people will never configure their system much. I do recommend the Jakob Nielsen link above, where they have done some actual user testing and characterized all the problems I've seen (and more) in a much more systematic way than I could do.
Merko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 06:07 PM   #114
icerat
Illuminator
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 4,860
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What seems so wrong that it is obvious? I really don't see it - the fact is that I have a quicker and smoother way to work since I installed Windows 8. I can find my programmes and files even quicker than I could in Windows 7, my standard programs are totally functionally unaffected by the changes in Windows 8.
This is exactly my experience with Windows 8 as well. It's simply incredible the beliefs people have about Windows 8 that simply don't reflect reality.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 06:07 PM   #115
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 67,844
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
So you've gone to great lengths to avoid using what one of the links above appropriately calls the 'start screen' (as opposed to 'start menu'). This shows that you also don't really like the 'start screen'. But alas, that is the standard way Microsoft have chosen.

I understand that if you're a power user and you're willing to spend time to configure everything to your liking, then it might very well to be possible to make the Windows 8 GUI usable and you may appreciate other improvements. I (reluctantly) use Linux, and it has pretty much the same problem - sure if you know what you're doing and you have patience, you can make it do what you want.

But the defaults matter since most people will never configure their system much. I do recommend the Jakob Nielsen link above, where they have done some actual user testing and characterized all the problems I've seen (and more) in a much more systematic way than I could do.
I use the start menu all the time, I thought I had made that clear. I have also have not functionally configured or altered the default settings of Windows 8. I use windows 8 "out of the box" the same way as my mother does. The great thing about Windows 8 is that its default settings work for both a "power user" and a computer "novice".

Again can I ask how long you have been using Windows 8?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2012, 11:05 PM   #116
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,829
Originally Posted by Merko View Post
They are forcing the 'Metro' mode on users whether they want it or not.

I agree on this point. They should have made an option to change back to the old Start Menu.


Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sadly I think the well has been truly poisoned and many folk will make their minds up without ever using it.

And if they would have just added the option to switch to classic start menu that would have been nullified completely. Whether or not the poisoning was warranted.
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 03:17 AM   #117
richardm
Philosopher
 
richardm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,270
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sadly I think the well has been truly poisoned and many folk will make their minds up without ever using it.
I think that's probably right; I was talking to some people on Friday who've never used it but who are already convinced that it needed a touch screen to work, and if you didn't have one you'd have to click on things with your mouse. I didn't really want to get into an argument with them so I didn't ask them how they usually started things on their PC, I kind of wish I had.

Edit: I tried the RC version when it was launched, and I actually quite liked the new start menu tiles thing; what I didn't like was that once you clicked through to the desktop there seemed to be no way to get back. I was also quite disappointed to see that the desktop itself looked entirely familiar. I wanted new and exciting, dammit! So it does make me laugh when I see people complaining about how it's so completely different and unusual that nobody would ever want to use it.
__________________
Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

Last edited by richardm; 10th December 2012 at 03:21 AM.
richardm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 03:24 AM   #118
richardm
Philosopher
 
richardm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,270
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
I agree on this point. They should have made an option to change back to the old Start Menu.
Why should they? They didn't give XP an option to change back to Program Manager.

I suppose in a sense the answer is "because it would stop people moaning about change", but if in their beta testing they found that once people used it for ten or fifteen minutes the penny dropped, why would they? That might also explain why the new start menu wasn't changed during beta testing because it does seem incomprehensible that something so (apparently) universally loathed should be retained.
__________________
Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.
richardm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 05:54 AM   #119
ohms
Muse
 
ohms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 613
I'm with Darat on this one, I would even go as far as saying Windows 8 is Microsoft's best OS yet. However, unless you are purchasing new hardware or are a developer there is no compelling reason to upgrade from WinXP or later.
__________________
Long time lurker
ohms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 06:16 AM   #120
Dcdrac
Philosopher
 
Dcdrac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,028
Ihave been using Win 8 since we had RC and evlauation copies sent to us, I just created some shortcuts for myself.
I thinki ti s good for a stnadard home user or tablet user I do not see it working well in a corporate setting other than as touch screen PCs in a reception area, it would throw a lot of our users who have only jsut got used to n Win 7 from XP.
Dcdrac is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Computers and the Internet

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:46 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.