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Tags health conspiracies , vaccination , vaccine autism myth , vaccines

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Old 12th December 2012, 11:12 PM   #3081
Giordano
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.
You've already repeatedly established that what you "doubt" is of very little relevance to the medical facts and to what actually happens.
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Old 13th December 2012, 12:08 AM   #3082
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=220





You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic. Instead they add 4th vaccine to the MMR.
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Old 13th December 2012, 12:12 AM   #3083
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
You've already repeatedly established that what you "doubt" is of very little relevance to the medical facts and to what actually happens.
So you're saying the 12 children died because of an infection?
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Old 13th December 2012, 12:14 AM   #3084
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.
Let me edit that to less than 2 days.
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Old 13th December 2012, 12:40 AM   #3085
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=220





You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic. Instead they add 4th vaccine to the MMR.

There is no evidence to suggest that vaccines cause autism. And even if there were some increased risk of autism associated with said vaccines, it would still be worth it as the diseases that vaccines prevent are potentially fatal, while autism is generally not.
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Old 13th December 2012, 02:44 AM   #3086
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post

You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic. Instead they add 4th vaccine to the MMR.
Of course they would, if there was the slightest shred of evidence that there was any connection whatsoever between vaccination and autism.
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Old 13th December 2012, 02:51 AM   #3087
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.
You see how you feel after injecting live Staph virus into your self...
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Old 13th December 2012, 03:46 AM   #3088
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=220





You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic. Instead they add 4th vaccine to the MMR.
Yes, its absolutely mindboggling that there are not more studies of "lets NOT protect children against potential fatal diseases because some people dont understand medicine".

There have been mutliple studies to see if there is a true connection between autism and vaccination. All of them, except the one by someone who wanted to push his own version of a vaccine, say no.
How much money went down that drain that could have been used to actually help understand autism? Or at least used to help autistic children?

You've been show (several times) that the rise in autism can be correlated to a large amount of irrelevant factors (organic food sales, amount of internet use in a random country) I'd add the size of computer chips, the smaller and more powerful they get, the more autism is reported.
Why is it so hard to accept that there IS no link? That the rise in autism reported is most likely due to it being diagnosed better, or even at all and earlier? And that the first time it can be detected in a baby just accidentally coincides with the time they would also get vaccinations?
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Old 13th December 2012, 07:20 AM   #3089
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I found this interesting it is of course just illustrating a point



http://www.science20.com/quantum_dia...pendence-98944

"Puns aside, the distinction between correlation and causation should be clear to anybody reading this blog. For instance those arguing that vaccines cause autism on the basis of vague correlation measurements should have a look at the graph above (courtesy Hank's Facebook account) which would have them conclude that organic foods are rather the cause of autism! (But others might conclude that it is parents of autistic children who buy all the organic foods...) "

Last edited by Dcdrac; 13th December 2012 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 13th December 2012, 08:21 AM   #3090
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
To be fair, mercurycompounds and ions are always toxic.
Of course so is anything if taken to excess, but the thresholds for mercury compounds are low.
But well known and researched, which is why in a vaccine the amounts are calibrated to ensure that any injection will remain well below such a treshold.
And since the halflife of the mercury compound generated by thiomersal is measured in days, the body will purge itself of the mercury over a relatively short time. Provided you don't immediately inject more it is therefore safe.
Of course, replacing it with methods that do not require a toxic compound at all if preferable, which is why most vaccines no longer require the compound.
Sure, but table salt is also toxic in high enough doses.

The comparison between ethyl- and methyl-mercury is handily similar to between ethyl- and methyl-alcohol. One is extremely dangerous in even tiny amounts, such as a tablespoon of methyl-alcohol will kill you, while the other is generally safe in much higher doses but will still eventually kill you.

Vaccines stay incredibly far under either dosage. Thiomersal has an LD50 of 75mg/kg, but the limit per vaccine is .5mg/L. I'm not sure on the density of a vaccine, but if it's near water, that's about .5mg/kg, and you'd need to take about 150kg of vaccine per kg of your own weight to die from the mercury.

At least I think I did that math right. It's so hilariously impossible I'm sure I messed something up. But anyway, we're not really getting anywhere, because there are no children's vaccines with any mercury at all.
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Old 13th December 2012, 10:49 AM   #3091
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Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
Sure, but table salt is also toxic in high enough doses.

The comparison between ethyl- and methyl-mercury is handily similar to between ethyl- and methyl-alcohol. One is extremely dangerous in even tiny amounts, such as a tablespoon of methyl-alcohol will kill you, while the other is generally safe in much higher doses but will still eventually kill you.

Vaccines stay incredibly far under either dosage. Thiomersal has an LD50 of 75mg/kg, but the limit per vaccine is .5mg/L. I'm not sure on the density of a vaccine, but if it's near water, that's about .5mg/kg, and you'd need to take about 150kg of vaccine per kg of your own weight to die from the mercury.

At least I think I did that math right. It's so hilariously impossible I'm sure I messed something up. But anyway, we're not really getting anywhere, because there are no children's vaccines with any mercury at all.
Roll that thought out further. One would have to take 60,000 vaccinations to reach an LD50 dose.
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Old 13th December 2012, 11:32 AM   #3092
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=220





You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic. Instead they add 4th vaccine to the MMR.
You'd think that with (a) the large amount of consistent evidence from various types of epidemiological study, conducted by independent scientists from around the world, showing no link between MMR and autism and (b) the very real danger of death or disability caused by vaccine-preventable infectious diseases such as measles, the geniuses of the anti-vaccine community would see why such a study would be an incredibly stupid, dangerous and pointless endeavour.

Apparently not.
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Old 13th December 2012, 11:41 AM   #3093
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Originally Posted by jdc324 View Post
You'd think that with (a) the large amount of consistent evidence from various types of epidemiological study, conducted by independent scientists from around the world, showing no link between MMR and autism and (b) the very real danger of death or disability caused by vaccine-preventable infectious diseases such as measles, the geniuses of the anti-vaccine community would see why such a study would be an incredibly stupid, dangerous and pointless endeavour.

Apparently not.
I will put your point more bluntly:

How many dead and disabled toddlers are acceptable in your proposed study, Clayton?
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Old 13th December 2012, 04:49 PM   #3094
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic.
That's a dumb idea since there is no correlation between vaccines and Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD).

The most likely source is a genetic one complicated by environmental risk factors.

More boys are affected with ASD than girls.
ASD tends to run in families.
Maternal twins (genetically identical) have a 77% chance in boys and a 50% in girls for both twins to have ASD.
Fraternal twins (not genetically related any more than other siblings) have a 31% chance in boys and a 36% chance in girls for both fraternal twins to have ASD.
Siblings have a about a 10-20% chance in having ASD, if one already has ASD.

Therefore there is not only a genetic cause, but an environmental factor also, that being the conditions within the mother's womb. Genetically similar (but not identical) siblings almost triple the chance of developing ASD when in the womb together, than siblings born at different times.

Risk factors that have shown some correlation to the development of ASD includes, mother's age, father's age, antidepressant use during pregnancy, and illness during pregnancy. Much more research is needed.

Is Autism, at Least in Part, a Disorder of Fetal Programming?

Dr. Peter Szatmari, MD, Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2011;68(11):1091-1092.

Genetic Heritability and Shared Environmental Factors Among Twin Pairs With Autism

Joachim Hallmayer, MD; et al, Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2011;68(11):1095-1102.

Last edited by crhkrebs; 13th December 2012 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 15th December 2012, 06:36 AM   #3095
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Originally Posted by TheRedWorm View Post
There is no evidence to suggest that vaccines cause autism.
Except the evidence of hundreds of thousands of parents who have said that their toddlers were perfectly normal until just days after the MMR vaccinations.

Last edited by Clayton Moore; 15th December 2012 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 15th December 2012, 06:59 AM   #3096
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Originally Posted by TheRedWorm View Post
And even if there were some increased risk of autism associated with said vaccines, it would still be worth it as the diseases that vaccines prevent are potentially fatal, while autism is generally not.
If you knew today that you would become autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?
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Old 15th December 2012, 08:13 AM   #3097
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Except the evidence of hundreds of thousands of parents who have said that their toddlers were perfectly normal until just days after the MMR vaccinations.
No Clay, there is no evidence of "hundreds of thousands" of parents claiming that. There were only a handful in the UK GSK suit and 5K in the US NVICP OAP. And if you would bother to read the OAP transcripts (which I know you won't do) it is obvious the tenuous grasp on reality that the parents and the "experts" actually had. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how "heavy metals" are in MMR and MMR-V. Can't you answer this Clay?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
If you knew today that you would become autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?
I've pointed out your offence before and I will do it just one more time. Autists aren't as good as dead; autism isn't a death sentence. There are quite a few autists on this board and your statements are very offensive and wrong. Having worked with adult autists and having child autists in my life, you are clearly ignorant on the subject so just stop trying to characterise autism.

Este
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Old 15th December 2012, 09:08 AM   #3098
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
If you knew today that you would become autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?

Not in the least. And, since both my parents grew up through the horrors of polio, I wouldn't hesitate to vaccinate any future children I might have, either.
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Old 15th December 2012, 01:37 PM   #3099
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Originally Posted by crhkrebs View Post
...
Maternal twins (genetically identical) have a 77% chance in boys and a 50% in girls for both twins to have ASD. ...
Thanks for the links.
CM, could you comment on the above figure, please?
77% is pretty high odds, don't you think?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Except the evidence of hundreds of thousands of parents who have said that their toddlers were perfectly normal until just days after the MMR vaccinations.
CM, you already know the relation between the vaxx and the appearance of ASD symptoms, don't you?
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Old 15th December 2012, 07:34 PM   #3100
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Except the evidence of hundreds of thousands of parents who have said that their toddlers were perfectly normal until just days after the MMR vaccinations.


First, you made up the number of "hundreds of thousands" of parents. Clearly a large sample like this would be easy to study. And it has been. There is no relationship between vaccination and ASD.

Secondly, it's called confirmation bias, Clayton. The initial dose of MMR is given
at around one year of age. This is roughly the time that the child is old enough for the signs of ASD to manifest themselves. The parents, like you Clayton, confuse correlation with causation.

Thirdly, your statement of, ".......just days after the MMR vaccinations." doesn't hold water with the epidemiology. Some kids showed ASD symptoms prior to their vaccinations. Plus, how do you explain the fact that unvaccinated kids also have developed ASD?

Lastly, please explain the twin studies of ASD children. How do you explain that maternal twins of ASD sufferers are 7 times more likely to develop ASD than the siblings of ASD sufferers? Or that fraternal twins of ASD sufferers are 3 times more likely to develop ASD than their siblings?

It ain't the vaccine, Clayton.

Rutter M. Incidence of autism spectrum disorders: changes over time and their meaning. Acta Paediatr. 2005;94(1):2–15.

Last edited by crhkrebs; 15th December 2012 at 07:54 PM. Reason: Added Journal reference
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Old 16th December 2012, 04:38 AM   #3101
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Originally Posted by crhkrebs View Post
First, you made up the number of "hundreds of thousands" of parents. Clearly a large sample like this would be easy to study. And it has been. There is no relationship between vaccination and ASD.

Secondly, it's called confirmation bias, Clayton. The initial dose of MMR is given
at around one year of age. This is roughly the time that the child is old enough for the signs of ASD to manifest themselves. The parents, like you Clayton, confuse correlation with causation.

Thirdly, your statement of, ".......just days after the MMR vaccinations." doesn't hold water with the epidemiology. Some kids showed ASD symptoms prior to their vaccinations. Plus, how do you explain the fact that unvaccinated kids also have developed ASD?

Lastly, please explain the twin studies of ASD children. How do you explain that maternal twins of ASD sufferers are 7 times more likely to develop ASD than the siblings of ASD sufferers? Or that fraternal twins of ASD sufferers are 3 times more likely to develop ASD than their siblings?

It ain't the vaccine, Clayton.

Rutter M. Incidence of autism spectrum disorders: changes over time and their meaning. Acta Paediatr. 2005;94(1):215.
Great post, but you are screaming at the wind. Clayton has already made up his mind and will joyfully ignore any talk of confirmation bias, studies, or even asking how he eliminated any other possible correlation in favour of the one he wants to blame.
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Old 16th December 2012, 06:11 AM   #3102
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
If you knew today that you would become autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?
I have autism. Would you consider my diagnosis a death sentence?

Because I don't.
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Old 16th December 2012, 02:49 PM   #3103
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It would be dangerous, unethical, and unnecessary. It should never be done. I very much doubt anyone will ever do it. However... I can't help but wonder how Clayton's proposed study would be conducted.

Quote:
You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic.
What are you proposing Clayton? To delay the MMR vaccination for 12 months for a single birth cohort? (E.g. all babies born in 2013 would have the MMR vaccine a year late.)

And what would you be hoping to discover? Whether age of onset of autism was associated with vaccination?
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Old 16th December 2012, 03:38 PM   #3104
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Originally Posted by jdc324 View Post
It would be dangerous, unethical, and unnecessary. It should never be done. I very much doubt anyone will ever do it. However... I can't help but wonder how Clayton's proposed study would be conducted.

What are you proposing Clayton? To delay the MMR vaccination for 12 months for a single birth cohort? (E.g. all babies born in 2013 would have the MMR vaccine a year late.)

And what would you be hoping to discover? Whether age of onset of autism was associated with vaccination?
Actually, this has been done as a result of MMR withdrawal in Japan and autism rates actually increased after MMR was no longer given.

Tough luck Clay.

ETA: Eventually the monovalent vaccines were used and mumps and rubella incidence has gone up steadily since the withdrawal of MMR due to changes in vaccine recommendations.

Este

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Old 16th December 2012, 06:53 PM   #3105
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.
Your ignorance is still showing, Clayton Moore, (or your inability to read).
I did not say that the children in this trial which demonstrated the need for preservatives in repeated-used vaccines died in less than one day.
They actually died over 2 days
Thimerosal in Vaccines
Quote:
One particularly telling incident from Australia is described by Sir Graham S. Wilson in his classic book, The Hazards of Immunization
In January 1928, in the early stages of an immunization campaign against diphtheria, Dr. Ewing George Thomson, Medical Officer of Health of Bundaberg, began the injection of children with toxin-antitoxin mixture. The material was taken from an India-rubber-capped bottle containing 10 mL of TAM. On the 17th, 20th, 21, and 24th January, Dr. Thomson injected subcutaneously a total of 21 children without ill effect. On the 27th a further 21 children were injected.Of these children .eleven died on the 28th and one on the 29th. (Wilson 1967)
This disaster was investigated by a Royal Commission and the final sentence in the summary of their findings reads as follows:
The consideration of all possible evidence concerning the deaths at Bundeberg points to the injection of living staphylococci as the cause of the fatalities.
From this experience, the Royal Commission recommended that biological products in which the growth of a pathogenic organism is possible should not be issued in containers for repeated use unless there is a sufficient concentration of antiseptic (preservative) to inhibit bacterial growth.
In case you cannot understand this:
  1. eleven died on the 28th of infection (1 day after the injection)
  2. one on the 29th (2 days after the injection)
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Old 16th December 2012, 07:00 PM   #3106
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Let me edit that to less than 2 days.
Thimerosal in Vaccines
The children died in less than 2 days.
The Royal Commission said that they died of infection.
Thus the children died of infection in less than 2 days. Duh !
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:16 AM   #3107
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Originally Posted by Estellea View Post
Actually, this has been done as a result of MMR withdrawal in Japan and autism rates actually increased after MMR was no longer given.

Tough luck Clay.
I read the entire study, and was shocked to find out why they stopped giving the MMR vaccine.
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:17 AM   #3108
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Also, I did not realize the MMR vaccine was all live virus. So no mercury as as an antispetic agent. Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case?
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:28 AM   #3109
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Originally Posted by r-j View Post
... Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case?
It is only by those who are ignorant about the issues. Almost ten years ago I was on a listserv for my son's disability. Someone asked a question about the MMR vaccine, and another person replied with a warning on thimerosal. I then replied saying: "For clarification, the MMR vaccine has never contained thimerosal."

Then the person who had posted a warning on thimerosal emailed the moderator telling her to ban me from the listserv for not being up on the science. I replied that all she had to do was provide the evidence the MMR contained thimerosal, while providing CDC links explaining why it never contained it. They backed down.

Then on any online discussion I would note that you can tell the level of knowledge someone had on vaccines was in the basement when they said this phrase: "the thimerosal in the MMR vaccine." It is somewhere up there with "vaccines being directly injected in the bloodstream."
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:45 AM   #3110
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Originally Posted by r-j View Post
I read the entire study, and was shocked to find out why they stopped giving the MMR vaccine.
Why? The Urabe mumps vaccine strain was associated with an increased risk of asceptic meningitis. Unfortunately, the Japanese government is too stubborn and nationalistic to import MMR-II and will not implement a vaccine programme to provide adequate measles, mumps and rubella coverage.

Originally Posted by r-j View Post
Also, I did not realize the MMR vaccine was all live virus. So no mercury as as an antispetic agent. Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case?
Clay stated that MMR and MMR-V contained "heavy metals" and as Chris explained is the hallmark of ignorant anti-vaxx rhetoric. Clay refuses to either provide substantiation or admit he made a mistake.

Este
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:04 PM   #3111
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Originally Posted by Estellea View Post
No Clay, there is no evidence of "hundreds of thousands" of parents claiming that. There were only a handful in the UK GSK suit and 5K in the US NVICP OAP. And if you would bother to read the OAP transcripts (which I know you won't do) it is obvious the tenuous grasp on reality that the parents and the "experts" actually had. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how "heavy metals" are in MMR and MMR-V. Can't you answer this Clay?


I've pointed out your offence before and I will do it just one more time. Autists aren't as good as dead; autism isn't a death sentence. There are quite a few autists on this board and your statements are very offensive and wrong. Having worked with adult autists and having child autists in my life, you are clearly ignorant on the subject so just stop trying to characterise autism.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw


Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:15 PM   #3112
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw


Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.
But we do have a way to excrete it from the body. You do it daily (at least, most people do)
Thiomersal halflife in a mammal is well studied.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:57 PM   #3113
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw


Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.
What about some real evidence instead of YooToob?
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:08 PM   #3114
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
What about some real evidence instead of YooToob?
There's evidence outside of Youtube? What, you mean like yahoo video, vimeo, or metacafe?
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:29 PM   #3115
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Originally Posted by frenat View Post
There's evidence outside of Youtube? What, you mean like yahoo video, vimeo, or metacafe?
I was thinking along the lines of real studies carried out by people who actually know what they are talking about.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:36 PM   #3116
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I was thinking along the lines of real studies carried out by people who actually know what they are talking about.


I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:44 PM   #3117
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..
Because they have a degree in medicine/biochemistry/genetics and did an extensive study with controls, double blinds and everything else required to actually rise above and beyond mere conjecture?
I'd love to see their papers with data.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:55 PM   #3118
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..
Individual data points can show up all over the map. What do the aggregates show, Clayton?

By the way, why aren't you answering Bram Kaandorp regarding your little "Death Sentence" dramatic tootsie roll you left on the carpet? Left speechless? Are you afraid to touch it?
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:55 PM   #3119
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..
After they ruled out all other causes? My youngest brother has four daughters, one of whom is severely autistic. They were all vaccinated with MMR, and he doesn't blame the vaccines.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:58 PM   #3120
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
But we do have a way to excrete it from the body. You do it daily (at least, most people do)
Thiomersal halflife in a mammal is well studied.
I pointed out to Clayton (several pages ago, with references) that we excrete ethylmercury (I even told him how we did so).

He seems to have completely ignored that. No doubt he will do so again.
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