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#41 |
Smelling fishy
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home is wherever I'm with you
Posts: 27,388
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Someone trying to bully, rip off, or take advantage. Someone being passive aggressive or otherwise manipulative. That sort of thing. A lot of that depends on the manipulator counting on people being trained not to or unwilling to give offense. My kids have offensive behaviour in their toolbox.
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Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen |
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#42 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 16,668
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#43 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 46
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In my response to joesixpack, I mentioned that people who do not exist do not feel sad or deprived of existing. That’s the the point I was trying to convey. I think that point is the most important. I do apologize for not repeating that explanation very well in my response to Piscivore.
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I’ve come to the conclusion that, more than likely, humans are going to continue mindlessly breeding themselves to death. But I feel that it’s better to speak up about something that I feel is important than to not speak up. Even if my words/actions barely put 1 cm of impact into the world, I think at least I’ve tried. I honestly think the same can be said about atheism and skepticism. Even if things might not change that much, people such as yourself are starting to become aware that breeding is a choice, so that’s a good thing. Ignoring anti-natalism for a moment, I think it’s great when people are aware that they don’t need to breed. Some people breed not realizing that they have a choice, end up miserable, and end up spreading their misery to their children. (And while misery can make the children hardier, it can impede their ability to function) And, of course, most anti-natalists want to cut down on the unnecessary suffering of those who are here. I hope that answered your question. Good day. |
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#44 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 46
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To clarify, I’m not exactly arguing that non-existence is preferable to existence. I’m saying that, as far as we know, a person who doesn’t exist cannot be sad or regret that they weren’t born. So, why do we feel the need to “gift” a person who doesn’t exist with life when they literally can’t care whether they receive the “gift” or not? And this “gift” is the kind of gift that can’t be returned. We’re all aware of those who don’t want to be here and use extreme and often painful methods to stop their suffering.
“What’s the point?” I ask. What’s the point of making the huge decision of life for another person, the biggest decision one can make? What gives us the right to make this decision for another person? What if I end up giving my life an A+ but my child doesn’t want to be here (and feels that way until they die). Was my “need to breed” justifiable when it directly lead to another person, especially a loved one, suffering in a way that I can’t even imagine? You don’t have to answer these questions, of course. This is just how I, and many anti-natalists, think. As for how I feel about my existence: SO FAR (and this is the key) I am not suffering enough to feel the need to end it. Not to mention that I strongly fear the process of dying and death. Suicide is horrifying/terrifying even to those who want to end it all. That fear definitely keeps me in line, so to speak. Also, my parents, especially my mom, are emotionally fragile. If I can help it, I don’t want to die before my mom does. I don’t know if she would be able to handle my death, especially via suicide. If I were going to kill myself I would only kill myself if I were in severe pain (or maybe if I got something like a cancer diagnosis – I’m not sure). I’m thankful that everything is not more than I can handle and I hope it never gets that way.
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If you can understand that non-existent people don’t feel deprived, then you can better understand my viewpoint and the viewpoint of many anti-natalists. In general, I believe that the focus shouldn’t be on anti-natalists wanting to “deprive” people from life, but on the common mindset that it is acceptable to force life onto people who can’t consent to it. (Yes, a person has to be alive in order to consent in the first place, but since the entire consent situation is impossible, I don’t believe we should make the decision of life for another person. There’s no real need to, in my opinion)
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I hope my answers were satisfactory. If not and/or if you want more anti-natalist views on the “Why don’t you kill yourself” question, I highly recommend checking out the following sites: 1. http://why-im-sold-on-antinatalism.b...de-part-1.html 2. http://theviewfromhell.blogspot.com/...-yourself.html Good day. |
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#45 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 46
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I actually agree. (And I think you’ll find that a lot of anti-natalists feel the same way) To me, I see the universe as “it is what it is.” That’s why I said “It's common for humans to feel that some suffering is unnecessary and purposeless. “ I was trying to say that it’s common for humans to see things as “senseless.” (And, of course, human opinions often differ) And, of course, as a typical human, I attribute meaning to things like most other humans. It is what it is.
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The point I was trying to make is that most humans do not think all suffering is a “good” thing, a way to “better” ourselves. It is common for humans to want to minimize certain kinds of suffering. My point was in response to your statement "I believe suffering is what motivates us to better ourselves, our circumstances, and our environment."
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Unlike the mindless pro-natalist mindset, we are looking at other people, specifically the people who aren’t yet here. We are looking at whether it’s right to force the huge decision of life and all that comes with it onto another peson. And since they can’t properly consent to such a huge thing, we say “Best not to touch it. There’s no need to touch it.” Now there are some anti-natalists out there who are more egocentric than others (we’re humans, after all), but even if we were “taking the ball and going home,” we still wouldn’t be doing any harm. As I’ve said, people who don’t exist can’t feel deprived of not existing. It’s impossible for us to snub our noses at those who don’t exist. But people who exist certainly can feel deprived and you cannot reverse life like you can a DVD. I would highly recommend viewing my response to Dinwar as I touch on this subject rather well (if I do say so myself).
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That you think it’s not a good trade is your opinion. I think it’s a good trade seeing as how if you don’t exist you don’t cry about it. If you don’t see it as a good trade, you should be mourning the tons of people who won’t exist, but I know you have other things to do, like live and tend to the people who are here. And like you said above, if the universe won’t notice that we are gone, why does it matter that a “person” can’t “enjoy anything”? It seems to me that you enjoy your life and aren’t receiving more than you can handle and that’s good. Hopefully, it stays that way. It’s heartbreaking when people don’t want to be here. But please keep in mind that if your parents decided not to have you you would not feel deprived of anything. You wouldn’t feel sad about not existing. It’s hard to wrap the mind around, but it’s true.
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I’m not writing kids off. Being anti-natalist does not mean you don’t care about people. Like I said before, anti-natalism is mainly rooted in empathy/sympathy for your fellow human beings. I don’t think you meant to, but to me your comment came across as an attack on my character. You can ask me my opinion on such topics as children, but please refrain from making comments that can easily be perceived as negative assumptions or we may have to discontinue this discussion. Good day. |
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#46 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 46
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marplots, I am aware that “person” and “exists” are one in the same. The reason I use the term “person” is because I don’t know how else to explain my viewpoints.
I’m not sure if I fully understand your point or not, so I will answer the best way I can: The philosophy of anti-natalism is very concrete, mainly focusing on human beings (though some anti-natalists also focus on other species) and the belief that we should not breed. Anti-natalists believe that it’s easiest for humans to stop breeding because of our level of intelligence. (Many, I’ll admit, are biased towards humans and human issues) Many anti-natalists are aware that, once we are here, suffering is guaranteed, but we do want to try to minimize suffering (even simple things like refraining from punching people in the face, volunteering with senior citizens, and advocating for contraceptive use). We know that we are mainly going off of what we hope is correct (as are all humans, of course), but by not breeding we know that humans will not be forcing life onto another person without their permission (and the suffering and death that comes with it). We advocate not making the decision of life for another person because we feel there is no good enough reason to do so. I hope that answers at least some of your concerns. I would also recommend reading my response to Piscivore as well because I think I touched on this issue. Good day. |
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#47 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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Well, my whole point was that you aren't "forcing life onto another person without their permission" because until they are a person, and can then decide for themselves, there is no permission in play. It is the equivalent of me claiming my front lawn is an atheist, for it doesn't believe in God. Without the capacity for belief, I am misusing the label atheist. So too are you misusing the "forcing" and "permission" bit, as if a not-person had the capacity to be forced or to give permission.
That is why I brought up insensate and inanimate objects. You do not say, "I will refrain from creating a bookshelf, for I do not have its permission." At whatever point permission is possible, that same point is where you lose the right to make a decision for them. This works at the other end of life as well with euthanasia, where we want someone to choose death for themselves as an escape from suffering. It is the difference between suicide and murder. |
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#48 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 22,397
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All the arguments for anti-natalism seem to boil down to the assumption that people are sorry they were born. You can massage the self-evident truth that if you didn't exist you wouldn't suffer and wouldn't miss anything, but it always seems to come down to the adult version of an angry kid yelling at his parents "I didn't ask to be born, you know!" when he has to clean his room. Life is crazy, short, confusing and uncertain from conception to death. Oh golly, paint tears on your cheeks and play your copy of "Dust in the Wind."
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I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
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#49 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 16,668
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That's pretty much what I'm getting out of this. The entire focus of this idea is on the negative--the positive is ignored or downplayed. Which makes no sense; after all, if bad things make it wrong to cause someone to be born, surely good things make it right to cause someone to be born.
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#50 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 46
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Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate your thinking outside of the box, but I do not feel like having a discussion on the defintion of “person” because I think it is irrelevant to the discussion on anti-natalism. However, I will start to use the term “person” to refer to non-existent individuals to make things easier to understand (hopefully).
Since breeding causes a "person" to come into existence without a say in the matter, I believe that one is literally forcing another "person" into existence without their permission. Yes, gaining permission is impossible (as I tried to explain in my response to joesixpack), but that’s the point. Because of this impossibility and because the non-existent "person" does not feel deprived of existence, anti-natalists do not believe that it is a good idea to force the decision of life onto that "person."
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#51 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 46
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Bruto, your comment wasn’t directed at me, but I feel the need to respond to clarify some things. The assumption is NOT that people are sorry that they were born. Some anti-natalists such as myself are aware that many people would classify themselves as happy to be here, even those who are struggling a great deal every day . (That’s why the “Well, some people are happy even though they are literally beaten and raped daily” argument doesn’t work on me. I’m aware of it and agree with it.)
I am aware that it is in many humans’ nature to cling to life no matter what and that’s where the fear of suffering and death that many have comes from. (Moving away from anti-natalism and moving towards atheism and skepticism for a moment: I believe this fear of suffering and death has to do with why so many people believe in a god. I do believe that, because of nature, many are hard-wired to believe in these things in order to function and that’s why I’m not sure that we will ever be able to fully eradicate religious/spiritual beliefs - the goal of some atheists/skeptics. This is one of the reasons I don’t look down on people just because they are religious/spiritual. If their beliefs keep them going and they aren’t causing much harm to others because of their beliefs, more power to them.) While I would prefer to not have existed, I would say that I do enjoy living so far and I hope to NEVER get to the point where I receive more than I can handle. (Hope means nothing, but whatever.) Again, this is how I personally feel and I am fully aware that there are others who feel differently. And that’s okay. As I’ve said before, I LOVE it when people who are here are glad to be here and I hope it stays that way for them. It’s heartbreaking when people don’t want to be here. While we have “treatments” like counseling, medication, friends, keeping busy, etc. there is no real “cure” for existential issues. Some anti-natalists such as myself are aware that mainly focusing on “suffering” is not a good idea because it is such a subjective argument. As you mentioned above, we cannot possibly argue our case by telling a person that they are "sorry they are born" when they feel and say that they aren’t. There are ways to argue our case without trying to prove that someone is suffering. As I’ve said numerous times, anti-natalism boils down to the very logical belief that we shouldn’t force existence and all that comes with it – the GOOD, the bad, the neutral (as I specifically said in my post to joesixpack) -- onto someone who cannot consent to existence. And yes, the fact that the non-existent would not feel sad about not existing is a very important part. Why do we need to create people who do not ask to be here and would not care if they didn’t exist? Why do we need to create these people who don’t care about not existing but who will who will suffer and die (and might feel deprived of their original non-existence) when they get here? To us, that doesn’t make sense. THESE are the questions that anti-natalists ponder.
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If you want me to explain anti-natalism again I’ll be more than happy to, but if you continue to assume that anti-natalism is about “wanting to get back at our parents” then you are literally not trying to understand anti-natalism and there’s nothing I or anyone can say or do to help you to understand it. And if you don’t want to attempt to understand anti-natalism, I don’t understand posting in this thread.
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#52 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 46
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Dinwar, your comment wasn’t directed at me, but I feel the need to respond to clarify some things.
In my post to joesixpack, I said the following: “I do not believe I have the right to force life (and all that comes with it - the GOOD, the bad, the neutral) onto someone who cannot consent to it.” The entire focus isn’t on the negative, I have specifically acknowledged the positives of life, and I have not once downplayed the positives of life. “Smart” anti-natalists won’t try to "weigh" the positives and negatives because we can't objectively do that. We cannot objectively downplay the positives. Like the negatives, like the neutral, they are what they are.
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Here is the anti-natalist position again: Why should we force someone into existence when they cannot consent to life and when they would not feel deprived of not existing? Why do we need to create these people who don’t care about not existing but who will who will suffer and die (and might be against existence) when they get here? When we cannot objectively prove that the good things outweigh the bad things (we can’t), why are trying to create people? These are the questions anti-natalists ponder. (In my opinion, these questions are similar to the questions many atheists ponder – For example, why should we believe in and/or follow the “rules” of a god when there is no objective evidence that one exists?) We don’t think breeding makes “sense” (in numerous ways) and that’s why we believe it shouldn’t be done. However you feel about the anti-natalist position is however you feel. But if you have questions or thoughts on anti-natalism, please feel free to ask me. That’s why I’m here. Good day. |
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#53 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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Eh.
It's not so much that I am forcing life on anyone, they are forcing their life on me. Here we are, just hanging out, enjoying our lives and suddenly, and without permission, this new life comes into existence and wants my beer. On the other hand, they made a cogent argument. They said, "Look, there were 17 peta billion other lives that won't ever get out of the non-existence phase. Statistically, there really isn't much life at all, hardly any. So how about I get a beer?" Serious odds. All the lives never lived. |
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#54 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 46
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everyone, December 23rd will be the last day that I will be posting in this thread (I will be extremely busy from December 24th and on) so please get any questions/concerns in ASAP so that I can respond to them before December 24th. If anyone wants anti-natalism site recommendations, PM me at any time.
It doesn't just "pop into existence," though. You have to have penile-vaginal sex and get pregnant or impregnate someone first. ![]() |
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#55 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 22,397
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So you can't accept the human condition at all. Obviously, nobody ever consented to conception, and that's true of every living being. Of course if you want to end humanity, antinatalism is the only non violent way to do it in theory, though owing to its low rate of acceptance it will never happen and the world itself will likely be worse for the effort. Of course there are a myriad of good, valid and sensible reasons for an individual to decide not to procreate. To my mind this does not translate into an argument that humanity should perish and the entire world be lost forever.
Even if I can see many reasons not to breed, the pure antinatalist position strikes me as silly junk. Of course I can only use my own life and those around me to form an opinion, but most of the people I know who exist have some reason to believe that existing is a good thing most of the time, and that humanity is something we value and wish to see continued. Some of us may actually even be thinking beyond the individual level, and considering humanity itself as having value. It may not be objective, but what about living is? If you see it as a gift rather than a burden, then there's only one way to give it, and that is without consent as we always have done. If you value the hive you need the bees. I'm sorry if you think my final remark is flippant, but that's on purpose, because I think antinatalism is stupid and sophomoric. Sorry, I just do. The example I threw in was not meant to suggest that anti-natalism is about "getting back at your parents," but to suggest that it's a stupid idea thrown out in stupid moments when good arguments are not to be had. Sure, we all suffer, and we all will probably go through some point in our lives when we wish them over, and maybe even wish them never begun, especially if we let momentary feelings take over our thoughts and erase our social history. And of course we will all die, and at some individual existential level we will be as if we had never been. I still think it's silly to suggest that the only way to fix the bad moments is never to have any at all, or that the only way to resolve the obvious fact that those who have never existed lack rights is to eliminate existence. There is no perfection in existence, but this does not mean that nonexistence is perfection. Sure those who never were will never know it. Maybe that seems like an insight to some but to me it seems a silly truism. |
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I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
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#56 |
New Blood
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
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I will take over JayJayJay's position since he will be unavailable for a bit. I define myself as an antinatalist, transhumanist and an existential nihilist/misanthrope and I am also open to all questions you might have. I am of a more selfish antinatalist nature and so I don't want to force on others my point of view. However, I don't think there is really much to discuss here. My position is all-encompassing and thus, individual aspects can always be argued away with simple logic.
I will first respond to the last reply by Bruno but that incidentally answers all other replies as well:
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The reason I am a transhumanist is because I want the human condition to be completely turned upside down: shed biological shell, remove death and all pain and suffering, old age, abolish work, money and capitalism, etc. Basically, unless there was already some sort of utopia here, I don't see a reason why I transitioned from non-being into being. This existence is as far away from an utopia as one could get, so I don't want to bring anyone here just as I don't appreciate at all being brought here myself. Finally, I am an existential nihilst/misanthrope because I do actually hate people for the sort of nightmare they created and continue selfishly perpetuating and while I will not tell them not to do so since its their freedom and not that my words will change anything, i will continue decrying the tragic state of affairs and so to a large degree the suffering inflicted on humanity by itself is well-deserved since this race is pathetic in that it enslaved itself and continues promoting life-affirming philosophies when there is every reason not to do so given our state of affairs. I am ashamed to be a part of this race and would like to have my membership fee returned if that was possible.
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#57 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 22,397
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Well, if you really think non existence is preferable to existence, of course there's little to argue about. Of course the non existent Martians are not missing out on anything, but there is such a thing as humanity, and such a thing as human society. It already exists, and so do we. We are not arguing in heaven about what to begin, but about what to do with what we already have. So it is possible for a person now living to value human culture and want to bring a further generation into existence to keep that thing going, as well as for the somewhat selfish reason of making one's own life a part of something that does not end when that life ends. Of course if you think all human culture, society, and art are of negative worth, then nothing I or anyone else can say will change that, and if you combine that with an incredible level of self-congratulatory puerile arrogance, I suppose nothing will change the antinatalist position either.
So we've discovered that life is often unfair and people are animals that die. Oh woe and welladay. If that means you'd rather give up and die off fine. But what possible argument gets you from that to the idea that you should advocate the end of the human race? Or, if you're consistent, all life (after all, nothing consents to it)? Or, if you're consistent, the entire universe, since its existence is only theoretical without beings to experience it? You can espouse nonexistence and partake no further of human life than you must (and forum rules require us to advocate), but as you yourself point out, the kids you don't have will never know what the rest of the world gets up to later, so why should your point of view or your assumption of theirs influence anyone else's? What is the difference to the nonexistent if the world goes on? Or in the words of Mary Oliver, a poet whose work you would so glibly consign to nonexistence but I would not, some of us feel within us "the beast shouting that the earth is exactly what it wanted." It takes a lot of gall to believe your own gloomy and individualistic ideas are so powerful and so right that they should be imposed on everyone for ever. You are, after all, not just saying you will not be a further part of the world. You are in a very real way advocating the death of the universe. Besides, if you are to be even remotely, marginally practical, you must realize that this tyrannically stupid policy of universal resignation will not ever be shared by enough people to be effective. All you can reasonably expect to do is cease your own line. If your ideas require that the whole world end, then it cannot succeed and must be abandoned, because it's otherwise just a dumb "if only I were king" fantasy and not only will the world go on despite it, but it will be the worse off for your waste of time. |
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I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
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#58 |
New Blood
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
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You will find that I am in general a less conservative antinatalist in that I am open to all critique and can fully admit my vices and negative psychology predispositions that life shaped in me. I find no fault in admitting my own deficiencies and still be as philosophically inclined as I am.
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I just don't feel that the human race is really accomplishing anything here. Ever since we came here, we didn't do anything really. We've been stuck on this little planet fighting our endless wars and killing each other and we visited another rock and now sent our probe to yet another rock.. you consider that progress? It seems like we are cleaning up the mess we are making and always fail to do it properly. Why make the mess in the first place then? Its less about the universe itself and more about what the hell are we doing here to begin with? Why create a need that need not exist? The universe is not screaming for us to tend to something that it can't take care of. We are the ones who keep creating deprivation (by bringing others here) and then attempting to satisfy that deprivation and mostly failing to do so.
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Anyways, thanks Bruno for the great comment! Its not too often that people are willing to talk about antinatalism in a practical rather than emotional manner so I appreciate it |
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#59 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 22,397
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I can certainly see from your own account why you'd want not to continue your line, but I actually don't think the risk of life hating kids is so great that I would join you. Of course it's a little late now, since my kids are grown up. I am pretty sure they, as well as my stepson, are on balance glad that they exist.
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I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
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#60 |
New Blood
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
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Do you see any correlation between slavery and procreation? I am just wondering what sort of risks of conception do you find acceptable and what sort of risks you find unacceptable and whether you consider existence to really resemble slavery with no way out (you can't kill yourself nor can you continue living).
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I guess I am more of a "soft antinatalist" rather than a "hard antinatalist" and even though voluntary non-breeder is not too far from the truth, it still dodges the philosophical issue of "existential preference" (i.e. non-existence vs existence), something that it along with the childfree people don't really take into account (they only care about it insofar as they don't see themselves being parents and its usually a lifestyle choice without any deeper thinking involved). Again, I would be happy if people chose not to breed because I see life as generally futile and humanity not really accomplishing anything.. not to mention our insignificance and eventual extinction at some point in the future, but I wouldn't force it on them even if I could.
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My decision not to breed could be described as a mix between my desire to be child-free, my inability to be a good parent (I am pretty sure of that due to various reasons) and the inherent futility and fleeting nature of life as well. I mean, these kids would go back to non-existence after a few decades. Was it worth bringing them here only to subject them to that? I mean I am afraid of death myself... and had I not been born, I wouldn't really be afraid of it. Also, if I hadn't been born, I wouldn't experience any of the suffering nor the pleasure.. however the suffering was always far stronger and far more prevalent... would you consider it rational of me to conclude on census that my life with that ratio is something that wasn't really worth starting?
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A lot of people argue that we can't discuss non-existent people because they don't exist yet. Do you think the same way? If not, do you agree with me that we can predict at the very least the general path of life they will take and the sort of things they will have to deal with?
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Do you consider the natural human ability to not think that globally about their life or the lives of others as essential in keeping one's wits and not going insane? All in all, I guess the main reason I am an antinatalist is because I see no reason why I was subjected to this kind of existence and not an existence that I would be always thankful for because it would always satisfy me. I see no ultimate justification for my suffering and no reason for why i should live in this intolerable socio-economic system, subject to biological whims (disease, etc), old age and eventual demise (which can really happen anytime). Yes, I had my pleasures, moments that I wished would last forever, moments that could freeze just like that in eternity but these were very fleeting whereas the suffering is far more pervasive and its potential is far more potent in this dangerous world. Since I am having these conscious miserable experiences, I can definitely anticipate others having similar sensations and can empathize with their sentiment that it would have been better had they never been born (and i've had talks with people who feel similar to how I feel on various blogs) and while the percentage of people who feel that way versus those who don't feel that way is probably extremely small, we can't really discount all of these people and their suffering, right? Do you think there is an alternative solution? Or simply to stop breeding voluntarily and not spread your own misery further down the rabbit-hole and let others decide for themselves? Now, I don't think that it's irrational even if you think that way... but I just want the suffering to be acknowledged and for society to allow certain people to exit gracefully when they decide to do so if no treatments seem to work, these people should be allowed to leave the game because antinatalism, grim and dour as it is, is still based on rational grounds, even if the premises and conclusion are all extremely negative. I will not deny that I've seen a psychologist in the past, been taking antidepressants, was reading self-help books and been trying to improve my life somehow, but the deficiencies were just too damn flagrant to ignore and they always put me back into a depressive state since nothing was ever enough for me and I always yearned for the kind of existence where I wouldn't suffer and where everything would satisfy me and found no justification to continue reading optimistic tripe that could never change the fundamental parameters of life. Do you think that suicide clinics should be built and euthanasia should be legalized for pretty much anyone after a certain age even if they're not terminally ill? What if they are truly depressed and after the cool-down period they were given, that depression didn't subside. Do you think they should be given the right to "exit gracefully"? I think that makes perfect sense. I guess I can see where you're coming from since you're probably the first person who truly engaged with me in a deep discussion about antinatalism from a pro-natalist perspective without hurling insults and attacking my character and I appreciate that because my YT channel with videos about AN was a pretty big train wreck as you can imagine ![]() |
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#61 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,806
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Suffering is an instrinsic characteristic of life; much like the fact that complex life must consume other life in order to sustain itself. I don't personally consider it a good enough reason not to create new life.
However, I also believe that if people don't want to have children, it's not something society requires them to justify. If you don't want children, just don't have them. |
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#62 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 9,558
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I am really curious.
How many parents here actually planned the parenthood and stuck strickly to "The Plan", as opposed to people for whom "Life just happened, the way it happened"? |
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#63 |
New Blood
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
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Well, is that really something to praise? Wouldn't you be happier if there was a utopia, life didn't consume itself and actually didn't contain any suffering whatsoever? Is there any reason you consider good enough not to create life? How about a reason good enough to ending life?
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#64 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 22,397
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Deaman, it's too late tonight for me to digest much, but I will say that horrible though the school shootings and many other bad events are, to suggest that nobody at all should ever breed is I think a misreading of the risk. We don't know what people's fate will be, nor how long they will live, nor whether they will live long enough to procreate, die young in agony, but give rise much later to children or great great grandchildren who will balance out all the pain. It's too complicated. We can make individual choices only as individuals.
We could go on and on about this, and maybe will but not tonight. I do not feel deprived of my nonexistence, because there was no I and nonexistence is complete. You can't be deprived of something if there's no you to be deprived. Part of this argument is difficult to make sense of on either side because language is limited, and so, I think, is our ability to conceive of things. It's impossible to argue the antinatalist position without using terms that seem to imply that the nonexistent have some kind of pre-being or rights. I guess life is like that. We live and die, we are or we aren't. When it's over it will all be over, but it isn't yet. It will all be forgotten and for naught when it's over, but it hasn't been yet. What's temporary and relative is real, and it's all there is. I could wish there were something more but there isn't. Must a flash be eternal to be bright? I'm quite aware that I am lucky and that much of the world is miserable, but though I and my progeny could possibly make it worse it is far more likely they will make no difference in the big picture, and possible they will make it a little better, at least for someone. Nothing about the future is certain, except for nonexistence. That's utter, complete, and dreadfully dull. |
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I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
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#65 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,182
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Actually the post I was responding to was quite insulting.
As to what I said? I think that it is self evident. First of all, it requires the self importance that you believe you have the right to force another being to exist It is arrogant for someone to think that way It is greedy, in that you would have to want to do it in the face of all opposition |
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Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it |
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#66 |
New Blood
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
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#67 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,806
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Sure it would be great; but the dice didn't turn up that way, it's just a plain and simple fact. If a way could be found to make those things true, again great; but in order to do the necessary research and development we need living people who unfortunately are going to have to suffer and consume other life as a condition of their existence. I believe there are good situational reasons for an individual choosing to not create life. Financial capability, health, interest, and maturity are important factors that, when not of a desirable state, might lead one to reasonably conclude that creating life isn't a good idea at the current moment. |
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#68 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 46
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dimasok, hello fellow anti-natalist. Thank you for taking over. It's interesting reading your POVs and I appreciate your "outside of the box" thinking and raw honesty. I will, though, have to respectfully disagree that the premises and conclusion of anti-natalism are all extremely negative. (If that's what you were saying. If not, I apologize in advance.)
Do you have a link to your YouTube page? I'd love to check it out. Good day. I'm not sure what this means and I do wish that you would frame your assertions as questions. If I'm understanding you correctly then this is what I have to say: I can accept that life is what it is. I do not fault it; I do not get angry at it. It's not like life is purposefully malicious. It is mindless and random. (This mindset gives me peace when horrible things happen. I don't have to ask "Why did this happen?" Whatever happened happened because it was always a possibility) However, for numerous rational/logical reasons, I do not feel that it is necessary for us to breed and, therefore, it should be discontinued. Please focus on this point because that is the main point of anti-natalism. Acceptance or non-acceptance of the human condition is not the point.
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But, yeah, like I've said in previous posts, I'm going to continue advocating anti-natalism until I literally can't. If atheists/skeptics are going to continue trying to rid the world of superstition (which is more than likely impossible) I might as well do my thing, too. When I die, I'll at least know I tried.
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This is getting slightly off topic but this mindset is the reason I don't fully understand people wanting to torture the murderers of their loved ones as a way to "seek closure." What happened to the victim happened. If the victim suffered, he or she suffered. Torturing the murderer does not reverse time or erase what happened. The only thing people can do is take comfort in the fact that the suffering of their loved one eventually ended and they found peace through death. I will say I do understand people wanting to murder and/or torture murderers out of anger and hurt. That makes more sense to me.
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This is a common mindset of humans and I used to mildly fear this concept before I became more "aware." (I think fear of our species ending/"dying" is nature's way of saying "Breed!" to us, giving us the feeling that we are doing something "right" by breeding.) But there is nothing to fear. It is what it is. We didn't exist before and we won't exist again. So why not just say we had a "good run" and just "wind down"?
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#69 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 22,397
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I do not feel that I need to frame an assertion as something else. What I see in the strong antinatalist position is a desire and intention to eliminate humanity (and thus all that is or ever has been human) from the world forever. There is no degree of non-acceptance greater than this.
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__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
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#70 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,153
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#71 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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Could you explain what you mean here? Do you mean that your stance is only supported holistically and not built from blocks of logic?
This bothers me. How would you obtain such consent? What does it even mean for a non-existent person to wish to be born? 1) We know some people (on balance) enjoy their lives. 2) We know others do not. How do you choose between these two, since, arguably, the one who enjoys life wanted to, and is grateful for their existence, while the other is not. Would you use a statistical measure or does the negative completely outweigh the examples of positive outcomes? If you have a moral duty to avoid creating a disappointing life, don't you then have the same duty to create meaningful, fulfilling lives? I would claim the locus of control is screwed up here. First because talking about the desires of a non-existent being is nonsense and second because you are exercising a type of illusory control over the situation. I think this stems from an idea that evil (or whatever term you prefer) is created somehow, as a kind of willful act and as if evil were a thing you could package up and sell by the pound. |
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#72 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 9,558
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Wrong target.
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#73 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,806
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One cannot "force another being to exist". Even if one chooses to engage in reproductive behavior, whether or not this results in the creation of another life is purely a matter of chance.
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#74 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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#75 |
New Blood
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
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#76 |
New Blood
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
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Well, I never said being an antinatalist meant agreeing with each other ![]()
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#77 |
New Blood
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
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What if the majority did want to end humanity, would you change your mind then and reluctantly consent or not?
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#78 |
New Blood
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
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What is there more a potential for? Negative or positive experiences then?
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While the intentions of would-be parents are probably not evil (especially if the child was planned and not "just happened"), they are not the ones who will live the lives of their offspring. What if the offspring come to hate life and wish they were never born? What possible recourse would the parents have? None. Name me one rational unselfish reason why parents want to have kids? Bruno mentioned "because I would like my kids to experience life's joy". If non-existence is neutral and has no joys or pleasure and no potential for harm and if life contains suffering and the potential for harm, then what possible reason could there be to surmise that your kid would be the "lucky" one? Especially, given the scenarios I outlined above?
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If you say that we have a moral imperative to kill all sad people right now, then how is it not the same as saying that we have a moral imperative to continue procreating 24/7 every single minute of your lives everywhere because not doing so would prevent the formation of trillions of potential beings who would never have the potential to be happy? A bit absurd. no? |
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#79 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,806
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This is a non sequitur. There's no such thing as "bringing someone from non-existence". If they do not exist, they cannot be brought or taken anywhere.
Yes. My personal opinion. "Because I cannot nurture it" is a good reason; "because it is life" is not. |
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#80 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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Yes, my point exactly. It is absurd. But it is also absurd to think there is a moral imperative the other way round.
You are saying, in effect, "This game is rigged, therefore I will not play it." However, the result, in the extreme, is that no one else can play it either. Just as much as your decision prevents the potential for harm, it prevents all other potentials. This relies upon a concept of "suffering" which I reject as baseless because it is relative and subjective. Here is an attempt to measure Gross National Happiness for Bhutan, an objective measure of a subjective experience: http://www.grossnationalhappiness.com/articles/ |
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