ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl

Reply
Old 28th December 2012, 10:15 PM   #1001
remo
Scholar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 90
marmite and bunny-rabbit la la.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5700758_extr...ur-gypsum.html
I see.
"Heat the gypsum in a kiln to 600 to 900 degrees C in the presence of a reducing atmosphere such as hydrogen or carbon monoxide to produce calcium oxide and sulfur dioxide. Using hydrogen, for example,CaSO₄ + H₂ ' CaO + H₂O + SO₂Thus the gypsum is converted to calcium oxide (lime) and sulfur dioxide, both very useful products. The sulfur dioxide can then be further processed in at least two commercially profitable ways.
Employ a catalyst made up of vanadium pentoxide and an alkali metal sulfate supported on small silica beads at high temperature. The sulfur dioxide will be converted into sulfur trioxide, which is to be dissolved in 98 percent sulfuric acid. That sulfur trioxide reacts with the 2 percent moisture to form additional sulfuric acid. Catalytically reduce the sulfur dioxide into elemental sulfur. The U.S. Department of Energy describes the use of a cerium oxide catalyst to reduce a mixture of sulfur dioxide and carbon monoxide to form sulfur and carbon dioxide. In this reaction, the carbon monoxide is oxidized to carbon dioxide; hence the overall reaction is a reduction-oxidation reaction, or REDOX"

At what time during the split-seconds of almost free fall of the great towers do you think the wallboard went thru this process ?

How do you get elemental sulfur all over Manhattan in ppm from wallboard in a DUST storm if you have to go thru a process as complicated as that begun and ended in the amount of time it took to read this sentence? And in mid-air??
At what part of the process would the elemental sulfur be formed inside the iron rich microspheres? I'm no expert, but maybe at the same temperature and time the intergranular attack on the steel took place??
Oystein, you ask how long the demolition sequences 'would take' as if they hadn't. As if its a question?
Just watch any one of the films taken on the day.
Thats how long it took. You don't even have to guess.
remo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2012, 10:23 PM   #1002
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 12,293
Originally Posted by remo View Post
http://www.ehow.com/how_5700758_extr...ur-gypsum.html
I see.
"Heat the gypsum in a kiln to 600 to 900 degrees C in the presence of a reducing atmosphere such as hydrogen or carbon monoxide to produce calcium oxide and sulfur dioxide. Using hydrogen, for example,CaSO₄ + H₂ ' CaO + H₂O + SO₂Thus the gypsum is converted to calcium oxide (lime) and sulfur dioxide, both very useful products. The sulfur dioxide can then be further processed in at least two commercially profitable ways.
Employ a catalyst made up of vanadium pentoxide and an alkali metal sulfate supported on small silica beads at high temperature. The sulfur dioxide will be converted into sulfur trioxide, which is to be dissolved in 98 percent sulfuric acid. That sulfur trioxide reacts with the 2 percent moisture to form additional sulfuric acid. Catalytically reduce the sulfur dioxide into elemental sulfur. The U.S. Department of Energy describes the use of a cerium oxide catalyst to reduce a mixture of sulfur dioxide and carbon monoxide to form sulfur and carbon dioxide. In this reaction, the carbon monoxide is oxidized to carbon dioxide; hence the overall reaction is a reduction-oxidation reaction, or REDOX"

At what time during the split-seconds of almost free fall of the great towers do you think the wallboard went thru this process ?

How do you get elemental sulfur all over Manhattan in ppm from wallboard in a DUST storm if you have to go thru a process as complicated as that begun and ended in the amount of time it took to read this sentence? And in mid-air??
At what part of the process would the elemental sulfur be formed inside the iron rich microspheres? I'm no expert, but maybe at the same temperature and time the intergranular attack on the steel took place??
Oystein, you ask how long the demolition sequences 'would take' as if they hadn't. As if its a question?
Just watch any one of the films taken on the day.
Thats how long it took. You don't even have to guess.
__________________
Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake.

-Henry David Thoreau
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 12:10 AM   #1003
Spanx
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,225
Originally Posted by remo View Post
http://www.ehow.com/how_5700758_extr...ur-gypsum.html
I see.
"Heat the gypsum in a kiln to 600 to 900 degrees C in the presence of a reducing atmosphere such as hydrogen or carbon monoxide to produce calcium oxide and sulfur dioxide. Using hydrogen, for example,CaSO₄ + H₂ ' CaO + H₂O + SO₂Thus the gypsum is converted to calcium oxide (lime) and sulfur dioxide, both very useful products. The sulfur dioxide can then be further processed in at least two commercially profitable ways.
Employ a catalyst made up of vanadium pentoxide and an alkali metal sulfate supported on small silica beads at high temperature. The sulfur dioxide will be converted into sulfur trioxide, which is to be dissolved in 98 percent sulfuric acid. That sulfur trioxide reacts with the 2 percent moisture to form additional sulfuric acid. Catalytically reduce the sulfur dioxide into elemental sulfur. The U.S. Department of Energy describes the use of a cerium oxide catalyst to reduce a mixture of sulfur dioxide and carbon monoxide to form sulfur and carbon dioxide. In this reaction, the carbon monoxide is oxidized to carbon dioxide; hence the overall reaction is a reduction-oxidation reaction, or REDOX"

At what time during the split-seconds of almost free fall of the great towers do you think the wallboard went thru this process ?

How do you get elemental sulfur all over Manhattan in ppm from wallboard in a DUST storm if you have to go thru a process as complicated as that begun and ended in the amount of time it took to read this sentence? And in mid-air??
At what part of the process would the elemental sulfur be formed inside the iron rich microspheres? I'm no expert, but maybe at the same temperature and time the intergranular attack on the steel took place??
Oystein, you ask how long the demolition sequences 'would take' as if they hadn't. As if its a question?
Just watch any one of the films taken on the day.
Thats how long it took. You don't even have to guess.
Thanks Remo, this post explains alot to me. I now have to agree it could only be thermite. You have explained things in such a manner that even I can understand.

911 was an inside job
Spanx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 12:13 AM   #1004
Spanx
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,225
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
barnett is blowing hot sulfur dioxide up your buttocks with the whole wallboard scenario!
Would you care to explain why ?
Spanx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 12:15 AM   #1005
ozeco41
Philosopher
 
ozeco41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,124
Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
Thanks Remo, this post explains alot to me. I now have to agree it could only be thermite. You have explained things in such a manner that even I can understand.

911 was an inside job



Have you debunked/rebutted the Marmite Hypothesis?

Last edited by ozeco41; 29th December 2012 at 12:17 AM.
ozeco41 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 02:38 AM   #1006
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,236
Originally Posted by remo View Post
Oystein, you ask how long the demolition sequences 'would take' as if they hadn't. As if its a question?
Just watch any one of the films taken on the day.
Thats how long it took. You don't even have to guess.
Well, no. Bare-assed assertions don't fly around here. Go back to 911Blogger, that censorship-protected echo-chamber. It suits your fact-free, logic-free, knowledge-free, skill-free approach better.

And I ask a whole lot more.
You have been able to answer zero questions.

So you're out.
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 02:40 AM   #1007
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,236
Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
http://conleys.com.au/smilies/thumbup.gif


Have you debunked/rebutted the Marmite Hypothesis?
And don't forget the fried-okra-hypothesis
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 06:49 AM   #1008
Miragememories
Illuminator
 
Miragememories's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,392
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Well, no. Bare-assed assertions don't fly around here. Go back to 911Blogger, that censorship-protected echo-chamber. It suits your fact-free, logic-free, knowledge-free, skill-free approach better.

And I ask a whole lot more.
You have been able to answer zero questions.

So you're out.
Censorship?

Echo-chamber?

I guess it's not much fun posting in a forum that can't be 'gamed'.

MM
__________________
"No one said the air at Ground Zero was safe to breathe."
-Mark Roberts, 11/5/2007
[The bad air was amazingly confined to the Ground Zero site? "Who knew"]
"I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C. that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink."
-Christie Todd Whitman, EPA Press Release, 9/18/2001
Miragememories is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 08:58 AM   #1009
TheRedWorm
I AM the Red Worm!
 
TheRedWorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,452
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
http://www.anr.state.vt.us/dec/waste...ing/gypsum.pdf

http://www.americangypsum.com/pdfs/msds.pdf



http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=3216,4182102

http://www.sesi.net/recycling_drywall.html

I won't even bother going into how SO2 is released at even lower temperatures in a reducing atmosphere as I think the point is proven.
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post

Doesn't this perfectly encapsulate this entire sub-forum? Sunstealer posts actual references, truther responds with a yoooooooooootooooooooooooooooobe.
__________________
I'll be the best Congressman money can buy!

As usual, he doesn't understand the relevant sciences, can't Google for the right thing, and appears to rely on the notion that a word salad liberally sprinkled with Google Croutons will make his argument seem coherent. -JayUtah
TheRedWorm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 09:41 AM   #1010
Sunstealer
Master Poster
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,738
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
The above video is nonsense and this has been explained to you at least 50 times before. Jon Cole, just like you, has no idea what he's talking about.

Thermate cannot produce the sulphides found along grain boundaries by solid state diffusion as evidenced here.







The clues are in the phrase solid state diffusion, namely the material is solid, never been liquid and diffusion namely takes time over hours not seconds.

Thermite or thermate acts over seconds producing temperatures high enough to melt the steel material in bulk. The above photomicrographs would be impossible if the material had been liquid.

There is no way that thermate can produce the sulphides seen in the grain boundaries by solid state diffusion. There simply isn't enough time during reaction phase for this to occur. You have been told this a thousand times.

If you think it can then it's upto you to show this. Make up thermate and ignite it on some steel, take sections of the steel, mount, polish and etch those sections and show that it can. You nor any other truther will ever do the simple experiment.

Lastly you support Harrit et al. Please point out where the Sulphur is in the following EDX spectra:



It's not there in any quantity. As usual you are claiming thermite and thermate did the same thing without any evidence for either. Don't just link to youtube, use your own words to make an argument. You can't because you don't understand a word about the subject as has been shown over and over and over again yet you still come back with nonsense that's been debunked dozens of times.

Last edited by Sunstealer; 29th December 2012 at 09:50 AM.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 09:47 AM   #1011
Sunstealer
Master Poster
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,738
Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Have you debunked/rebutted the Marmite Hypothesis?
I did this one ages ago.

Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 11:24 AM   #1012
ozeco41
Philosopher
 
ozeco41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,124
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Curse.

Looks like I have to deploy the big one.

To avoid wasting bandwidth I may plead nolo contendere

Or should I join Oystein in the action with his "fried-okra-hypothesis " and try a "cut throat defence"?

(Like "It wuz him, not me, yer honour.")

Decisions...decisions...decisions....

Last edited by ozeco41; 29th December 2012 at 11:32 AM.
ozeco41 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 03:36 PM   #1013
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,345
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
The above video is nonsense and this has been explained to you at least 50 times before. Jon Cole, just like you, has no idea what he's talking about.
i think he did a better job than the fire wise professor in trying to recreate the office/debris fire that supposedly created the eutectic and "corroded" the steel.

Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Thermate cannot produce the sulphides found along grain boundaries by solid state diffusion as evidenced here.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&pictureid=948

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&pictureid=945

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...pictureid=4465

The clues are in the phrase solid state diffusion, namely the material is solid, never been liquid and diffusion namely takes time over hours not seconds.
i think it happened over mins but the buildings did collapse and the steel did lay in a heap of office material that did burn. so yeah, they did not cool down for hrs or days. so the diffusion you see and speak of did take hrs to occur.

Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Thermite or thermate acts over seconds producing temperatures high enough to melt the steel material in bulk. The above photomicrographs would be impossible if the material had been liquid.
i think it was used alittle differently. namely in those red gray chips that were hundreds of layers thick. they were pre made and one could probably roll X amount of layers of sulfur between layers of the red/gray material depending on the thickness of the steel. im sure one could easily produce sulfur that rolls out like tape with some sort of binder that holds the sulfur together. anyway, i think the device is more like a blowtorch that attacks the steel in that manner. not by just laying on the steel and reacting.

Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
If you think it can then it's upto you to show this. Make up thermate and ignite it on some steel, take sections of the steel, mount, polish and etch those sections and show that it can. You nor any other truther will ever do the simple experiment.
actually i am working on something. got any idea where i could buy some magnetite that is as thin as the gray layer?? thats all i am looking for now. i believe you stated that the gray layer was magnetite.

Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Lastly you support Harrit et al. Please point out where the Sulphur is in the following EDX spectra:
i told ya how i think the sulfur got into the chips. thats just speculation. once the chips ignited, some blew off. thats what jones and crew found.

check out this pic. it is telling. prof astaneh took it soon after he arrived b/c its still on a truck bed. it looks as though the steel got attacked at the connection from both sides of the I beam. see how the bottom looks like a razor's edge. super thin...and some gone! IMO some accelerant device was placed on the I beam on both sides with the "torch" facing the direction of the connecion at an angle.


Last edited by Senenmut; 29th December 2012 at 03:38 PM.
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2012, 07:34 PM   #1014
Axxman300
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
check out this pic. it is telling. prof astaneh took it soon after he arrived b/c its still on a truck bed. it looks as though the steel got attacked at the connection from both sides of the I beam. see how the bottom looks like a razor's edge. super thin...and some gone! IMO some accelerant device was placed on the I beam on both sides with the "torch" facing the direction of the connecion at an angle.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6c54b826e6.jpg
Wow, cool beans.

Now please tell us which building it came from (WTC-1,2,3,4,5,6,or 7). Then tell where in the particular building the beam was located. Then where was it's approximate location in the pile where it was pulled from?

When you can answer all those questions - then you can tell us if it's strange or not.
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 12:44 AM   #1015
Spanx
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,225
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
i think he did a better job than the fire wise professor in trying to recreate the office/debris fire that supposedly created the eutectic and "corroded" the steel.


i think it happened over mins but the buildings did collapse and the steel did lay in a heap of office material that did burn. so yeah, they did not cool down for hrs or days. so the diffusion you see and speak of did take hrs to occur.


i think it was used alittle differently. namely in those red gray chips that were hundreds of layers thick. they were pre made and one could probably roll X amount of layers of sulfur between layers of the red/gray material depending on the thickness of the steel. im sure one could easily produce sulfur that rolls out like tape with some sort of binder that holds the sulfur together. anyway, i think the device is more like a blowtorch that attacks the steel in that manner. not by just laying on the steel and reacting.


actually i am working on something. got any idea where i could buy some magnetite that is as thin as the gray layer?? thats all i am looking for now. i believe you stated that the gray layer was magnetite.


i told ya how i think the sulfur got into the chips. thats just speculation. once the chips ignited, some blew off. thats what jones and crew found.

check out this pic. it is telling. prof astaneh took it soon after he arrived b/c its still on a truck bed. it looks as though the steel got attacked at the connection from both sides of the I beam. see how the bottom looks like a razor's edge. super thin...and some gone! IMO some accelerant device was placed on the I beam on both sides with the "torch" facing the direction of the connecion at an angle.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6c54b826e6.jpg
I think someone is doing an awful lot thinking and coming out with a complete load of ************

But I could be wrong, usually if it looks like it and smells like it
Spanx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 02:42 AM   #1016
swright777
Muse
 
swright777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 807
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
From that video:
Originally Posted by Jonathan H. Cole
... explosive nano-thermite ...
I guess they still don't get it. And I find it hard to take these scienticians seriously when they can't get the use of then and than right.
swright777 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 03:16 AM   #1017
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
actually i am working on something. got any idea where i could buy some magnetite that is as thin as the gray layer?? thats all i am looking for now. i believe you stated that the gray layer was magnetite.
Sigh... very apparently, gray layers (magnetite or similar oxide) are scales of oxidized (and painted) WTC steel. You don't need to "buy" it, just go outside and look at some rusted steel objects in your neighbourhood - you will find such iron oxide scales for sure quite soon

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 30th December 2012 at 03:33 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 07:46 AM   #1018
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,345
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Wow, cool beans.

Now please tell us which building it came from (WTC-1,2,3,4,5,6,or 7). Then tell where in the particular building the beam was located. Then where was it's approximate location in the pile where it was pulled from?

When you can answer all those questions - then you can tell us if it's strange or not.
if we can get astaneh to start talking about those beams that showed steel wastage then maybe we could figure it out.
from an article:
"Dr. Astaneh-Asl, a professor of structural engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, changed out of his nightclothes and went downstairs for a closer look. Over the next few nights, he cataloged 30 to 40 of the mighty beams and columns as trucks stopped in front of the hotel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/02/sc...pagewanted=all

that piece of steel pictured was on the back of a truck... probably one he catalogued.
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:36 AM   #1019
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,345
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
Sigh... very apparently, gray layers (magnetite or similar oxide) are scales of oxidized (and painted) WTC steel. You don't need to "buy" it, just go outside and look at some rusted steel objects in your neighbourhood - you will find such iron oxide scales for sure quite soon
remeber the multiple layer chips. i belive that there were multiple gray layers. i think one layer was high in carbon too. the oxide scales you speak of would not occur except close to the steel.
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 09:19 AM   #1020
Miragememories
Illuminator
 
Miragememories's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,392
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
"if we can get astaneh to start talking about those beams that showed steel wastage then maybe we could figure it out.
from an article:
"Dr. Astaneh-Asl, a professor of structural engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, changed out of his nightclothes and went downstairs for a closer look. Over the next few nights, he cataloged 30 to 40 of the mighty beams and columns as trucks stopped in front of the hotel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/02/sc...pagewanted=all

that piece of steel pictured was on the back of a truck... probably one he catalogued.
"
Nice find Senenmut.

A professor of structural engineering, has unimpeded access to WTC steel, transported fresh from Ground Zero, two weeks after 9/11.

The importance of his on-the-record observations cannot be ignored.

Originally Posted by NY Times
"One piece Dr. Astaneh-Asl saw was a charred horizontal I-beam from 7 World Trade Center, a 47-story skyscraper that collapsed from fire eight hours after the attacks. The beam, so named because its cross-section looks like a capital I, had clearly endured searing temperatures. Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized."
bolding is mine

MM
__________________
"No one said the air at Ground Zero was safe to breathe."
-Mark Roberts, 11/5/2007
[The bad air was amazingly confined to the Ground Zero site? "Who knew"]
"I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C. that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink."
-Christie Todd Whitman, EPA Press Release, 9/18/2001
Miragememories is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 09:34 AM   #1021
16.5
Philosopher
 
16.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,754
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Nice find Senenmut.

A professor of structural engineering, has unimpeded access to WTC steel, transported fresh from Ground Zero, two weeks after 9/11.

The importance of his on-the-record observations cannot be ignored.


bolding is mine

MM
And you think that he supports truthering?

Bwhahahaha!!!

Quote him again, MM!
__________________
The Fallacy of Pseudo-refuting Descriptions

The art of labeling an argument in a dismissive fashion being used as an argument in and of itself. Ex: Labeling facts as a conspiracy theory
16.5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 09:44 AM   #1022
Spanx
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,225
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
if we can get astaneh to start talking about those beams that showed steel wastage then maybe we could figure it out.
from an article:
"Dr. Astaneh-Asl, a professor of structural engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, changed out of his nightclothes and went downstairs for a closer look. Over the next few nights, he cataloged 30 to 40 of the mighty beams and columns as trucks stopped in front of the hotel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/02/sc...pagewanted=all

that piece of steel pictured was on the back of a truck... probably one he catalogued.
If Astaneh made his observations (over the next few nights) why is the I beam picture taken in day time ?
Spanx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 10:28 AM   #1023
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,236
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Nice find Senenmut.

A professor of structural engineering, has unimpeded access to WTC steel, transported fresh from Ground Zero, two weeks after 9/11.

The importance of his on-the-record observations cannot be ignored.


bolding is mine

MM
You bolded "searing temperatures".

What does that mean - "searing"? Can you put a number to it? In C/F - lower bound?

Thanks.
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 01:15 PM   #1024
Ape of Good Hope
Muse
 
Ape of Good Hope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Nice find Senenmut.
Not really. He's been trotting out the 2001 Kenneth Chang article as proof of this that and the other for several years.

2008:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=238

2009:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&postcount=47

2010:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=311

2011:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=925


Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
A professor of structural engineering, has unimpeded access to WTC steel, transported fresh from Ground Zero, two weeks after 9/11.

The importance of his on-the-record observations cannot be ignored.
Neither can his email response to Senenmut:

"Let me state again that after 6 years of studying the collapse of World Trade Center, I have not found any evidence to support any of the claims of "conspiracy theorists". In my opinion, and based on scientific facts, the only cause of collapse was the structural and fire damage to the towers"
Ape of Good Hope is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 02:26 PM   #1025
remo
Scholar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 90
Hells kitchen.

"Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized."
I'm no expert. You tell me. How hot does it have to be to vaporize steel? How hot does it have to be to spray molten iron spheroids over Manhattan 6% by mass in hundreds of acres of dissolved concrete ? Or create molybdenum microspheres? or drop 81 vertically columned 47 storied steel framed high rises straight down at gravitational acceleration?
How hot does it get to have all current metallurgic studies into what evidence was retrievable after the 'bordering on criminal' WTC evidence disposal state categorically extreme and unusual material damage inconsistent with 'normal office furnishings fires' but NONE go that one step further and ask WHAT?

Thats pretty hot.
remo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 02:42 PM   #1026
Sunstealer
Master Poster
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,738
Originally Posted by remo View Post
"Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized."
I'm no expert. You tell me. How hot does it have to be to vaporize steel?
Explain in your own words what you mean by the term"vaporize".
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 02:44 PM   #1027
Sunstealer
Master Poster
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,738
Originally Posted by remo View Post
How hot does it get to have all current metallurgic studies into what evidence was retrievable after the 'bordering on criminal' WTC evidence disposal state categorically extreme and unusual material damage inconsistent with 'normal office furnishings fires' but NONE go that one step further and ask WHAT? .
I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you writing in your native language and then using google to translate it into English?
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 04:06 PM   #1028
Reactor drone
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 872
Originally Posted by remo View Post
...or drop 81 vertically columned 47 storied steel framed high rises straight down at gravitational acceleration?
...
Wow, I didn't know that many buildings had collapsed.

Reactor drone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 04:48 PM   #1029
BasqueArch
Graduate Poster
 
BasqueArch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,496
Hell's Bells

Originally Posted by remo View Post
"Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized."
I'm no expert. You tell me. How hot does it have to be to vaporize steel? How hot does it have to be to spray molten iron spheroids over Manhattan 6% by mass in hundreds of acres of dissolved concrete ? Or create molybdenum microspheres? or drop 81 vertically columned 47 storied steel framed high rises straight down at gravitational acceleration?
How hot does it get to have all current metallurgic studies into what evidence was retrievable after the 'bordering on criminal' WTC evidence disposal state categorically extreme and unusual material damage inconsistent with 'normal office furnishings fires' but NONE go that one step further and ask WHAT?

Thats pretty hot.
Stream of consciousness writing is sometimes rewarded in the literature and psychology fields.
The rationals know there's no evidence of the use of thermite or explosives. The fires caused the failures of the three towers.
__________________
"El Diablo sabe mas por viejo que por astuto." -Dad - "The Devil knows more because he's old than because he's smart."
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "
- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can lead a truther to facts but you can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.- modified Twain or Swift
BasqueArch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 05:50 PM   #1030
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,345
Originally Posted by Ape of Good Hope View Post
Not really. He's been trotting out the 2001 Kenneth Chang article as proof of this that and the other for several years.

2008:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=238

2009:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&postcount=47

2010:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=311

2011:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=925




Neither can his email response to Senenmut:

"Let me state again that after 6 years of studying the collapse of World Trade Center, I have not found any evidence to support any of the claims of "conspiracy theorists". In my opinion, and based on scientific facts, the only cause of collapse was the structural and fire damage to the towers"
that is funny you link an email because astaneh never has said that in any email. NEVER
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 05:53 PM   #1031
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,345
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Explain in your own words what you mean by the term"vaporize".
now i have emailed chang...the author of the article.

he states in the email "parts of the I-beam were indeed gone" ....that is what vaporized means. gone....
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 05:59 PM   #1032
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,345
Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
If Astaneh made his observations (over the next few nights) why is the I beam picture taken in day time ?
that was from the chang article. the pic of the I beam was from the Berkleyan. it states he collected data for 10 days.
In just 10 days looking at the pieces that are coming out, I have learned so much important data about the collapse"

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkele...0/03_grou.html
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 06:04 PM   #1033
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,345
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You bolded "searing temperatures".

What does that mean - "searing"? Can you put a number to it? In C/F - lower bound?

Thanks.
is 1100C searing enough. remember, with 1100C sisson only got "little metal" to dissolve in 24 hrs. he will not give how little that little is. maybe it was much much higher!

Last edited by Senenmut; 30th December 2012 at 06:06 PM.
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 06:42 PM   #1034
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,236
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
is 1100C searing enough.
Is that a question? What do I know? You bolded "searing temperatures", that means you somehow think it's important. That means you must have an idea what it is important for and that it is "enough" for whatever you think!

So tell us: Is it "enough", yes or no, and what for?

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
remember, with 1100C sisson only got "little metal" to dissolve in 24 hrs.
How much is little, and what is so special about 24 hrs. - would it be plausible that he got twice as much metal to dissolve in 48 hrs and five times as much in 120 hrs?

I.o.w., what's your point?

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
he will not give how little that little is. maybe it was much much higher!
Well, yeah, maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the opposite. Right?


So your answer to my question "What does that mean - "searing"? Can you put a number to it? In C/F - lower bound?" really is:

No, I, senemut, cannot give you a lower bound, and don't know what it means

Agreed?
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 07:03 PM   #1035
plague311
Graduate Poster
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,670
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
if we can get astaneh to start talking about those beams that showed steel wastage then maybe we could figure it out.
from an article:
"Dr. Astaneh-Asl, a professor of structural engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, changed out of his nightclothes and went downstairs for a closer look. Over the next few nights, he cataloged 30 to 40 of the mighty beams and columns as trucks stopped in front of the hotel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/02/sc...pagewanted=all

that piece of steel pictured was on the back of a truck... probably one he catalogued.
I thought the evidence was removed before any real investigating could be done. That's kind of weird.

Hasn't Astaneh-Asl been completely covered? I found this thread which has a lot of information in it on the subject. I don't think he believes in conspiracy theories
__________________
"All acts performed in the world begin in the imagination."--Barbara Grizzuti Harrison
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:18 PM   #1036
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,345
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Is that a question? What do I know? You bolded "searing temperatures", that means you somehow think it's important. That means you must have an idea what it is important for and that it is "enough" for whatever you think!

So tell us: Is it "enough", yes or no, and what for?


How much is little, and what is so special about 24 hrs. - would it be plausible that he got twice as much metal to dissolve in 48 hrs and five times as much in 120 hrs?

I.o.w., what's your point?
im just going to repost what i told chris b/c it answers your question:

of coarse something like that would take way longer than 24 hrs under ideal conditions(im speaking about the extreme steel wastage). HOW LONG is the question. if it is not feasible under normal office fire/debris fire scenario, then a paridigm shift might be needed. sisson (another professor at WPI) has done an experiment trying to reproduce the effects seen on the wtc steel using powders. he could only get "little metal" to dissolve the steel even at 1100C in 24 hrs!!! he will not tell us how "little" it was. consider this. from professor astaneh's observations and measurements, we learn that 1 inch of steel was gone after 0 to 18 days after 911. thats min and max corrosion rate.
"Steel flanges had been reduced from an inch thick to paper thin, Astaneh said."
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkele...0/03_grou.html

and another piece that experienced 15.9mm of steel wastage in only 0 to 8 days. the article does say he spent a fews days collecting samples so it might be alittle higher than 8 days. but i bet if astaneh would be willing to share his data with us, we could get the precise days of his observations.

so if sisson only got 5 micrometers of steel to dissolve in 24 hrs, we could multiply that out by days and get a number. would we see 1 inch gone at a max of 18 days or even 15.9 mm in alittle over a week. remember, he bypassed the office/debris fire even creating the eutectic. sisson just put it right on top of the steel and heated it up!!
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:33 PM   #1037
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,345
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Nice find Senenmut.

A professor of structural engineering, has unimpeded access to WTC steel, transported fresh from Ground Zero, two weeks after 9/11.

The importance of his on-the-record observations cannot be ignored.


bolding is mine

MM
read this a few times. what is even more interesting is what he thinks happened after the steel got "vaporized"!!

"One piece Dr. Astaneh-Asl saw was a charred horizontal I-beam from 7 World Trade Center, a 47-story skyscraper that collapsed from fire eight hours after the attacks. The beam, so named because its cross-section looks like a capital I, had clearly endured searing temperatures. Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized.

Less clear was whether the beam had been charred after the collapse, as it lay in the pile of burning rubble, or whether it had been engulfed in the fire that led to the building's collapse, which would provide a more telling clue.

The answer lay in the beam's twisted shape. As weight pushed down, the center portion had buckled outward.

''This tells me it buckled while it was attached to the column,'' not as it fell, Dr. Astaneh-Asl said, adding, ''It had burned first, then buckled.''



BURNED FIRST THEN BUCKLED. wow, he just said that the beam experienced extreme steel wastage and then buckled. Not as it fell.....not as it lay in the debris pile. while on the building it experienced the extreme steel wastage!!
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 09:05 PM   #1038
16.5
Philosopher
 
16.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,754
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post

BURNED FIRST THEN BUCKLED. wow, he just said that the beam experienced extreme steel wastage and then buckled. Not as it fell.....not as it lay in the debris pile. while on the building it experienced the extreme steel wastage!!
WOW! No he didn't!!!

"burned" does not equal "extreme steel wastage."

But, ohhhhh, so close and only what 11 years later?

Good for you
__________________
The Fallacy of Pseudo-refuting Descriptions

The art of labeling an argument in a dismissive fashion being used as an argument in and of itself. Ex: Labeling facts as a conspiracy theory
16.5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 09:40 PM   #1039
plague311
Graduate Poster
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,670
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
read this a few times. what is even more interesting is what he thinks happened after the steel got "vaporized"!!

"One piece Dr. Astaneh-Asl saw was a charred horizontal I-beam from 7 World Trade Center, a 47-story skyscraper that collapsed from fire eight hours after the attacks. The beam, so named because its cross-section looks like a capital I, had clearly endured searing temperatures. Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized.

Less clear was whether the beam had been charred after the collapse, as it lay in the pile of burning rubble, or whether it had been engulfed in the fire that led to the building's collapse, which would provide a more telling clue.

The answer lay in the beam's twisted shape. As weight pushed down, the center portion had buckled outward.

''This tells me it buckled while it was attached to the column,'' not as it fell, Dr. Astaneh-Asl said, adding, ''It had burned first, then buckled.''



BURNED FIRST THEN BUCKLED. wow, he just said that the beam experienced extreme steel wastage and then buckled. Not as it fell.....not as it lay in the debris pile. while on the building it experienced the extreme steel wastage!!
He didn't say that, he said that it burned and buckled first. It has also been proven that he doesn't believe in any of the conspiracy theories, but does agree with the NIST report.

ETA: Bah, 16.5 beat me to it. My bad.
__________________
"All acts performed in the world begin in the imagination."--Barbara Grizzuti Harrison
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 09:41 PM   #1040
Redwood
Graduate Poster
 
Redwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,054
Project for truthers: If we literally take Dr. Astaneh's remark that part of the steel had been "vaporized", figure the energy necessary to heat steel to the boiling point, plus the heat of vaporization (340 Kj/mole; compare to thermite's ~4Kj/mole) and tell us how much th*rmite was needed to accomplish this. Or could it be that Dr. Astaneh was speaking figuratively?
Redwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:50 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.