ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Computers and the Internet
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 5th January 2013, 03:21 PM   #241
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Moderator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 29,142
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post

Well, it kinda makes sense on a device with a small screen, at least.

Though, even that argument hasn't stopped others from making windowing available in some other tablet OSes, such as variations of Android and Linux. (If the Linux variation available for the Motorola Razr docking stations wasn't so damn limited in other respects, it would be an AMAZING portable OS. At least it proves windowing CAN work well on a small screen.)

And, for big screens: Yeah, no particular reason. They just messed up on that one.
Well, I specifically referred to a PC, and they've had multiple windows since CGA was the standard (and I even wrote software to implement windows on an 80x24 character Unix system).
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2013, 04:15 PM   #242
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,013
Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
So supposing you don't want your Modern start page cluttered up with all those redundant tiles/shortcuts to apps. How'd you go about deleting some of them? According to my virtual Programs add/remove programs panel I have no programs installed so the apps aren't listed there.
Right click on the tile, the bottom menu appears and you have the choice of removing the tile or uninstalling the app completely.

Add/remove programs is for desktop programs. Again, this difference between the two types of interfaces is where Microsoft screwed up. They should not be encouraging people without touch screens to use the touch apps.

I read up on the Nielsen usability testing (the one that got cited 100 times, so some folk here think it means there's a hundred bad reviews) - Nielsen had people using the "touch" apps on non-touch desktops, exactly the thing I'm talking about.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available

Last edited by icerat; 5th January 2013 at 04:16 PM.
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2013, 08:33 PM   #243
John Albert
Illuminator
 
John Albert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,140
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
That's an interesting search.

The first page and a half or so of hits are all articles giving the impression that experts have panned Win8.

Further reading of those articles reveal that that all the experts are Jacob Nielsen, who runs his own independent usability testing business, and they all reference one article he wrote.

I applaud the economy of your perfunctory dismissal there. Your handwaving skills could have given Ralph Macchio a run for his money back in the 1980s.

There's a reason why Jakob Nielsen's review was picked up by so many tech news outlets. He's a founder of one of the leading user interface design firms in the world. His partner, Donald Norman, wrote the definitive books on user-centric design that are taught in academic product design and software development programs all over the world. Do you think the comments from his personal blog would have gotten any play if they'd been written by some entry-level designer at Joe Blow's Wordpress Theme Emporium? If the head of the TSA came out and said in a blog post that he wouldn't personally fly on a particular model of airplane, that would presumably garner a lot of headlines as well. Would you argue that he's only one guy, so his opinion is invalid?

Anyway, Nielsen's not the only UX writer to criticize Windows 8. Here are some other industry professionals I found cited on the first few pages of my search results:

Raluca Budieu (UX professional): http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/ga...nfusing-954680

Peter Bright (UX writer/reviewer): http://arstechnica.com/information-t...wkward-hybrid/

Even professional Microsoft advocate blogger Paul Thurrott attributes lagging Windows 8 sales partially to wishy-washy design concept:
Quote:
Windows 8. It’s a floor wax. No, it’s a dessert topping. Microsoft’s new whatever-the-F-it-is operating system is a confusing, Frankenstein’s monster mix of old and new that hides a great desktop upgrade under a crazy Metro front-end. It’s touch-first, as Microsoft says, but really it’s touch whether you want it or not (or have it or not), and the firm’s inability to give its own customers the choice to pick which UI they want is what really makes Windows 8 confounding to users.
http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/wi...lame-go-around
Gabe Newell (head of Valve, and a former Microsoft exec) called Windows 8 "a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space." http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/va...-newell-talks/


Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
After that page and a half or so of hits you finally get to one which points out that Jacob Nielsen also panned the iPad when it first came out, and for many of the same reasons.That was based on seven users' experiences.

Obviously he knows his stuff, since the iPad was such a dismal failure.

You obviously didn't even read that thing you linked. It wasn't a "pan" of the iPad. The negative remarks were mostly centered on the design quality of the early apps, and anyway the commercial marketing success of the iPad is irrelevant to criticisms of its UI. If you read the article you linked, you also might have noticed that the NN Group also conducted a second study of the iPad a year later, documenting improvements to its usability.
__________________
“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
—Mark Twain

Last edited by John Albert; 5th January 2013 at 09:48 PM.
John Albert is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2013, 08:54 PM   #244
John Albert
Illuminator
 
John Albert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,140
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yes, I do. I've owned (and sold) several successful internet companies and now working on a number of new startups.

Wow. So you're one of the Forbes 500 or something?

I'm just as impressed now as I always am whenever I read somebody on the Internet making vague claims of being a wealthy, big-time mover-and-shaker, creator and seller of numerous "successful companies." We see a lot of people making those kinds of claims on these forums, and they usually bring a lot to the table by way of personal opinion and bluster, but very little in terms of evidence or objective reasoning.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I prescribe to the view that, in general, "an intuitive interface is whatever you're used to."

Oh really. You "prescribe" to that view? You must be very influential. How much training do you have in the field of UI design and usability testing?


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Take Windows 8 and Windows 8 phone. Yesterday we received one of the latter. The menu interface is different, leaving behind the "page" approach instead extending screens way beyond the visible portion.

My non-techie wife has had zero problem using it. Why? Because she's already become used to swiping on other phones and tablets. Extended screens visible through swiping is intuitive for her because she's already used to swiping. 5 years ago turning a page was "intuitive", because we're used to doing it. Now most people are used to swiping.

OK, but that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as bad product design because people will just get used to it.



I suppose people could devise some elaborate method of steps to use the above teapot without making a mess or getting scalded. People might even become accustomed to such a complicated way of serving tea in order to avoid injury. But would that mean that the teapot design is "good"?


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
There's a lot of BS in lots of fields, including UX design.

There's even more BS on Internet forums. How much do you actually know about this field that you're so glibly dismissing?


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yes, there's valuable insights and useful information as well, but really it does come to "whatever you're used to".

Not really, no it doesn't come down to "whatever you're used to." As Wowbagger pointed out, by that metric Windows 8 is definitely a failure because nobody is used to it.

There's a lot more to usability than "whatever you're used to." Good design is deliberate. Usability design involves some knowledge of cognitive psychology. It's a process that requires systematic testing and revision, or else lots of usage in the field with numerous failures, before it is done right.

Good design involves making things simpler and less troublesome to use, not needlessly complicated and confusing. Most of the points I've seen in this thread regarding the Windows 8 interface (in the linked reviews and by Wowbagger and others) have been focused on specific, legitimate design failures of Win 8 in those areas.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
And you think Microsoft hasn't done that with Windows 8?

I have no way of knowing what they have or haven't done by way of user testing at Microsoft. But I can tell you from many years of personal experience in the software development field, that some companies will spend obscene amounts of money on usability testing and then just throw away all that valuable information and go with whatever the senior business guys have decided they like best.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yes, as noted above your "plenty" is primarily Nielsen - whose 15 minutes ran out long ago. I never gave him much credence.

"15 minutes"? You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Nielsen and Norman practically invented the industry of user experience.


By the way, It's especially amusing to watch you proselytize about how great the Windows 8 user experience is, in between wordy explanations to Windows 8 users how to perform basic navigation and tasks within the operating system.
__________________
“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
—Mark Twain

Last edited by John Albert; 5th January 2013 at 09:38 PM.
John Albert is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2013, 09:46 PM   #245
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,013
Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
Wow. I'm just as impressed as I always am whenever I read somebody on the Internet claiming to be a big-time mover-and-shaker, creator and seller of numerous successful businesses.
I was asked, I gave an honest answer. If your response is to imply people are liars then it says more about you than me.

Quote:
Oh really. How much training do you have in the field?
I have a degree in psychology and computer science. That included the study of human factors in design.

Of course, I could just be lying.

Quote:
OK, but that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as bad product design because people will just get used to it.
I never said any such thing.

Quote:
Not really, no it doesn't. There's a lot more to it than that. Good design is deliberate. Good design involves some knowledge of cognitive psychology. Good design involves making things simpler and less troublesome to use, not needlessly complicated and confusing.
Yes, good design means making things that are similar to what people are used to!

What people are used to includes what they are used to in the real world, and those developed in response to our particular physical and cognitive traits and how they interact with the world.

What you are saying is in no way incompatible with what i'm saying.

Quote:
Most of the points I've seen in this thread regarding the Windows 8 interface (in the linked reviews and by Wowbagger and others) have been focused on specific, legitimate design failures in those areas.
The linked reviews were pretty much ALL about the same actual review (Neilsen and his lab) and as I pointed out, they primarily looked at using the Windows 8 touch apps on a non-touch machine. I've consistently stated that Microsoft has done a very poor job at differentiating the two interfaces.

Seriously, why is anyone surprised that apps designed for a touch interface are not well designed for non-touch interfaces?

If you're going to be evaluating Windows 8 on a non-touch device, shouldn't you be evaluating the desktop? Which, by the way, is what this discussion was primarily about.

Quote:
"15 minutes"? You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Nielsen and Norman practically invented the industry of user experience.
I'm giving my opinion, nothing more. I think Nielsen stopped providing valuable new insights to the field years ago. Good money in being a guru though.

Quote:
By the way, It's especially amusing to watch you proselytize about how great the Windows 8 user experience is, in between wordy explanations to Windows 8 users how to perform basic navigation and tasks within the operating system.
Good grief, what training and experience have you had in reading? Clearly not much.

Apart from Wowbaggers silly complaints about people forgetting in a millisecond why they went to a menu, and not remembering where the start icon or key is, I've been in agreement on the various problems, like the ridiculousness of trying to use a touchpad as a touchscreen proxy, or directing people to the Windows store for apps on non-touch devices, not to mentioned the lack of introduction to the differences in many setups.

Windows 8 is clearly designed with touch and hybrid devices in mind. Microsoft's biggest mistake isn't in the design per se, it's in not clearly differentiating the use and purpose of the two separate interfaces, particularly for the many people not using touch screens.

In the hybrid area MS is obviously trying to create a new market category in which it hopes to dominate, and that's what the focus of this OS is. Along with that they are working on unifying their interface across phone, appliance (xbox), desktop, hybrid and tablet. (see also today's news on the home automation front)

Screwing up the user transition when upgrading on other machines or on new non-touch machines is a marketing mistake, not a technical one.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2013, 11:02 PM   #246
John Albert
Illuminator
 
John Albert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,140
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I was asked, I gave an honest answer. If your response is to imply people are liars then it says more about you than me.

I have a degree in psychology and computer science. That included the study of human factors in design.

Of course, I could just be lying.

Of course you could.

But I never said you were lying. I just said I've seen lots and lots of people make similar claims on Internet forums, and their reasoning and argumentation skills often seem to follow a particular pattern. If you doubt my words, drop in here and have a look around.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yes, good design means making things that are similar to what people are used to!

Then by that reasoning, Windows 8 is undeniably poorly-designed. It's proven to be so different from what average Windows users are used to, that it causes confusion. That fact has been noted by numerous reviewers and experts, and demonstrated objectively in independent testing.

The fact is, many objective factors influence the quality of usability, far beyond "what people are used to." I seriously question the quality of your claimed education in the area of usability design, if you really believe that single simple rule to be the case. If that were true, then usability would be antithetical to innovation, which it obviously is not.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The linked reviews were pretty much ALL about the same actual review (Neilsen and his lab)

No, they were not.

Most of them were, simply because he was by far the most famous expert who wrote about it. But there are other reviews, if you bother to look.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
as I pointed out, they primarily looked at using the Windows 8 touch apps on a non-touch machine.

It's Windows. Windows has traditionally been designed to work on a "non-touch machine." Most of the machines out there running Windows are "non-touch machines." It is not, therefore, unreasonable for the lab to have tested Windows 8 on that kind of hardware.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I've consistently stated that Microsoft has done a very poor job at differentiating the two interfaces.

Microsoft is faced with an exceedingly difficult problem. They're trying to retain a 90-something percent share in a rapidly changing market which is shifting away from the dominant paradigm of desktop/laptop PCs, into a number of new form factors with new human interface technologies that Microsoft does not have a dominant market share of. Their dinosauric scale and tectonic production schedule are not assets in this kind of environment.

Other desktop OS developers have been facing the same challenges and feeling the same kind of backlash.

Ubuntu Linux dropped Gnome Desktop in favor of a new hybrid touch/KM interface called Unity (which is far less obtrusive than the changes in Win8), and have since dropped from 1st to 3rd in popularity. Of course Linux users have the freedom to choose any number of alternate window managers—or even install a whole new distribution if they like—and still run all the same software. But what choice do Windows users have? Back-grade and sit on Win 7 for 10 years like almost half of them are still doing with XP?

Apple has suffered the slightest reprisal from their users so far, but they haven't really even started to make the transition yet. Thus far, a touchscreen Mac is still the stuff of legend. Mountain Lion is still a traditional desktop OS, though you can see them taking baby steps in the touchscreen direction with the jumbo fly-out menus and emphasis on App Store purchasing and "cloud" storage. Whatever they end up doing, I'm sure they'll just advertise it as "the most advanced operating system in the history of the world" and their customers will just eat it all up without question. But the real test remains to be seen: how they'll navigate the path to touchscreen while maintaining backward compatibility with the old hardware.

Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with this OS in the way they often do: stuffing 15 pounds of **** in a 5-pound sack, and now it's bursting at the seams.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Seriously, why is anyone surprised that apps designed for a touch interface are not well designed for non-touch interfaces?

We're not talking about apps, we're talking about an operating system.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
If you're going to be evaluating Windows 8 on a non-touch device, shouldn't you be evaluating the desktop? Which, by the way, is what this discussion was primarily about.

The problem with Win 8 seems to be that the desktop has been usurped and dominated by this clunky, kludgey taped-on touchscreen interface that seems to frequently interrupt workflow and get in the way of normal productivity.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I'm giving my opinion, nothing more. I think Nielsen stopped providing valuable new insights to the field years ago. Good money in being a guru though.

I think you don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about. You apparently read one C/NET commentary that quite wrongheadedly contrasted Jakob Nielsen with Steve Jobs, and now you're an instant pundit.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Apart from Wowbaggers silly complaints about people forgetting in a millisecond why they went to a menu

That's a known cognitive issue. When you're designing an interface for humans, best practice is to take human protocols and human imperfections into account.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
and not remembering where the start icon or key is

I don't recall him complaining about "not remembering where the start icon or key is."


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Windows 8 is clearly designed with touch and hybrid devices in mind. Microsoft's biggest mistake isn't in the design per se

I disagree. From a usability standpoint, the design is abysmal. They screwed it up big time.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
it's in not clearly differentiating the use and purpose of the two separate interfaces, particularly for the many people not using touch screens.

Failure to clearly communicate the functionality of control elements in a UI is a major usability flaw.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Screwing up the user transition when upgrading on other machines or on new non-touch machines is a marketing mistake, not a technical one.

If that transition is handled by Microsoft's servers and software and those systems fail to process the critical differentiation, then it most certainly is a technical problem.
__________________
“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
—Mark Twain

Last edited by John Albert; 5th January 2013 at 11:47 PM.
John Albert is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2013, 11:03 PM   #247
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 14,699
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Well, I specifically referred to a PC, and they've had multiple windows since CGA was the standard (and I even wrote software to implement windows on an 80x24 character Unix system).
There is a joke that the product probably should have been called Microsoft Window (singular).

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Seriously, why is anyone surprised that apps designed for a touch interface are not well designed for non-touch interfaces?
I don't know. Why don't you just... get used to it!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
If you're going to be evaluating Windows 8 on a non-touch device, shouldn't you be evaluating the desktop? Which, by the way, is what this discussion was primarily about.
There is plenty to complain about, that has nothing to do with the included Apps.

We already covered the "no results" Search issue, where there are results found, you just have to click on something else to find them. That is NOT an App. That is a key OS feature.

Did anyone mention the lack of confirmation when you delete a file, yet? Because that is a pretty big deal, and it does not even have anything to do with Modern UI or Apps.

The Start Screen is not an App. It is a core OS feature. And here are four other reasons the Full Screen nature of it is a bad idea:

1. It hinders learning via tutorial. If someone is trying to learn Windows 8 by reading or watching a tutorial in Windows 8, they are going to have to make the tutorial disappear while any of the full screen features are up, including the Start Screen. I know someone who gives lessons on Windows who is constantly running into this problem. He recommends running Windows 8 tutorials from a separate machine they are actually learning on, if they have one. He generally does not recommend using multiple monitors, because those are problematic with the OS for other reasons.

2. This is true for ANY video you might be watching. Let us say you are watching the stream of a live event, and decide to bring up an application to take notes or bring up a photo or something while it is going on. You are going to have to miss a few seconds of that event, in order to do so. Unless the application was pinned to the taskbar, but sometimes they are not. (This also might not be a problem with multiple monitors, but those are problematic for other reasons.)
I know this is bound to happen to me, sooner or later, if I did not have Start8. And, I am probably not the only one.

3. A designer friend of mine sometimes uses the Search to look for resources while using applications. When the only Search screen is full screen, she loses context on what she is working on. (Not merely "forgetting where she was"), so coming up with search strings on the fly, based on different things she has in the design application, becomes more difficult.

4. Someone accidentally hits the Start key or button (which does happen from time to time), interrupting an important visual task they had to concentrate on. (I can not think of any specific examples of this, but I am sure it is not an unreasonable concern for someone.)

The lack of visual cues, and the need to swipe in the Charms bar indicates, to me, that non-touch desktop machines have taken a back-seat in user consideration. That is not a problem with the Apps. That is how the core functionality of the OS was designed, even when trying to use the desktop interface.

I could go on. But, I hope you get the picture.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Screwing up the user transition when upgrading on other machines or on new non-touch machines is a marketing mistake, not a technical one.
If Windows 8 is to be dismissed as merely a marketing mistake, then it is SUCH A BIG marketing mistake, that it EVEN EFFECTS how the technical aspects of the operating system work!!!!
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 02:20 AM   #248
El Greco
Summer worshipper
 
El Greco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 15,282
The thing is that Microsoft have the power to manipulate the market once again. Even Vista, that received so much negative criticism, was adopted at very high rates. People reported they were not satisfied with it but they had already bought it. MS will force Windows 8 on new hardware, will offer a redeeming feature to gamers, will manipulate software developers. In the end adoption will certainly fall within Microsoft's estimations.
__________________
"Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht

El Greco is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 07:33 AM   #249
Hungry81
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 417
Originally Posted by El Greco View Post
The thing is that Microsoft have the power to manipulate the market once again. Even Vista, that received so much negative criticism, was adopted at very high rates. People reported they were not satisfied with it but they had already bought it. MS will force Windows 8 on new hardware, will offer a redeeming feature to gamers, will manipulate software developers. In the end adoption will certainly fall within Microsoft's estimations.
Yes also once you have bought it you officially become a part of the pro windows 8 numbers game. There is no way to return it if you upgraded online and even if you reinstall or dual boot an earlier windows version there is no way for you to remove yourself from the stats that Microsoft can manipulate into positive uptake of windows 8. How many people out there are in this situation?
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 08:05 AM   #250
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 14,699
Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
I don't recall him complaining about "not remembering where the start icon or key is."
I did complain that there is a distinct lack of on-screen visual cues, for where to go to get things, such as the Start Menu or the Search screen.

So, it is easy for some people to forget where to go for these things. Especially those not trained in "getting used to it" yet, such as someone borrowing your machine.

Microsoft already learned the importance of on-screen cues, back in the days of Windows 3.1: There was no taskbar or Start button. People would minimize programs, and not know where they went. And, there was no on screen location to get to programs, when another was maximized.
That is why Windows 95 was designed the way it was, with a little bit of everything on-screen, so you know where to go!

Windows 8 is a huge step backwards in that regard. It seems Microsoft has to re-learn this lesson all over again!
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

Last edited by Wowbagger; 6th January 2013 at 08:09 AM.
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 09:04 AM   #251
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,013
Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
Then by that reasoning, Windows 8 is undeniably poorly-designed.
Poorly worded on my part "intuitive design" is what I meant to say.

Quote:
It's proven to be so different from what average Windows users are used to, that it causes confusion.
Except if you look at it, it's been "proven" in no small spart by putting people in the touch interface on desktop machines. Why on earth wouldn't you put them in the desktop interface, which is virtually identical to Windows 7.

Quote:
Most of them were, simply because he was by far the most famous expert who wrote about it. But there are other reviews, if you bother to look.
Yes, there are also plenty of other reviews talking about how Nielsen is wrong

Quote:
It's Windows. Windows has traditionally been designed to work on a "non-touch machine." Most of the machines out there running Windows are "non-touch machines." It is not, therefore, unreasonable for the lab to have tested Windows 8 on that kind of hardware.
Sure, on the non-touch interface works great on non-touch hardware. It's virtually the same as windows 7!

Quote:
We're not talking about apps, we're talking about an operating system.
Many of Wowbagger's criticisms have been about apps, not the OS.

Quote:
The problem with Win 8 seems to be that the desktop has been usurped and dominated by this clunky, kludgey taped-on touchscreen interface that seems to frequently interrupt workflow and get in the way of normal productivity.
And that's the crux of it - seems to have been usurped. It hasn't! It's reviewers who are trying to give that impression, and they're wrong. Admittedly they've been aided and abetted by poor marketing by Microsoft.

Quote:
I think you don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about. You apparently read one C/NET commentary that quite wrongheadedly contrasted Jakob Nielsen with Steve Jobs, and now you're an instant pundit.
Actually only just read that one now when I started looking for other opinions (which I gave above). Funny how they agree with me.

Quote:
I don't recall him complaining about "not remembering where the start icon or key is."
He did.

Quote:
If that transition is handled by Microsoft's servers and software and those systems fail to process the critical differentiation, then it most certainly is a technical problem.
I'm talking about the cognitive transition, things as simple as explaining "if you're using a non-touch device, then your primary interface in Windows 8 should continue to be the desktop"

Then the number of changes are small and easy to get used to.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 09:13 AM   #252
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,013
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
3. A designer friend of mine sometimes uses the Search to look for resources while using applications. When the only Search screen is full screen, she loses context on what she is working on. (Not merely "forgetting where she was"), so coming up with search strings on the fly, based on different things she has in the design application, becomes more difficult.
There's still designers using only one screen? You learn something new every day.

It's not the only search screen though. You still have search in explorer. Why doesn't she use that?

Quote:
The lack of visual cues, and the need to swipe in the Charms bar indicates, to me, that non-touch desktop machines have taken a back-seat in user consideration.
There is no doubt that is the case. They're clearly gambling on touch, and windows 8 is designed for it.

Quote:
That is not a problem with the Apps. That is how the core functionality of the OS was designed, even when trying to use the desktop interface.
It's only an issue if you don't know about them. RTFM.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 11:18 AM   #253
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 14,699
(Although my Internet connection is working better than anticipated, I don't have much time to get into writing responses, yet.)

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It's only an issue if you don't know about them. RTFM.
Why should I have to RTFM, for basic OS operations, when I did not need to read one for every other OS in town?



The articles you cite on why Neilsen is wrong are pretty dumb. I don't have time to elaborate on them, now. But, here is a sample of my responses:

From the first one:
http://craigpugsley.wordpress.com/20...out-windows-8/
Quote:
Sure, Windows 8 has a learning curve. Sure, it’s frustrating to use when you pick it up for the first time. Will you make mistakes? Absolutely. But, as an industry, how can we possibly progress the operating system paradigm unless we administer a little kick to move out of the local maxima users are in?
This attitude is extremely short sighted, uninspired, and also very unfair.

It IS possible to move forward with a progressive new interface WITHOUT kicking out existing users. Most other operating systems have managed to do this relatively well, most of the time.

The MORE inspiring attitude to have would be: YES, we CAN push forward with a FRESH, NEW interface, BUT we can ALSO make it work as a world-class contender for the EXISTING user base and hardware, AT THE SAME TIME!

That is the type of challenge that would be worthy of more respect. The whole "well, sometimes you have to break a few eggs" mindset does nothing but unnecessarily break a few eggs.

Also, the problems the OS has are beyond merely learning how to use it. As I mention many times before: Some of the design decisions are just plain BAD even after you learned how to use it.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

Last edited by Wowbagger; 6th January 2013 at 11:19 AM.
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 11:24 AM   #254
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,013
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Why should I have to RTFM, for basic OS operations, when I did not need to read one for every other OS in town?
Sorry to not reach your high standards of brilliance, but I needed to RFTM to understand my first android phone, and I am utterly clueless if you put me in front of a Mac.

Quote:
Also, the problems the OS has are beyond merely learning how to use it. As I mention many times before: Some of the design decision are just plain BAD even after you learned how to use it.
Let's just put this in perspective for the casual reader of this thread -

Here is what Jakob Nielsen's own website looked like up until a few days ago. After he suddenly started getting press coverage again it's been redirected to his corporate website.

This is the type of design you get if you actively put Nielsen's recommendations in to practice.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available

Last edited by icerat; 6th January 2013 at 11:27 AM.
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 12:46 PM   #255
quadraginta
What was the question?
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 9,907
Somehow I almost* feel vaguely guilty for not having all of the problems I'm supposed to be having switching to Win8 on a non-touchscreen machine.

It's almost like I'm letting the home team down.

(*: "almost" being the operative term in this case.)
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 01:07 PM   #256
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 14,699
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Sorry to not reach your high standards of brilliance, but I needed to RFTM to understand my first android phone, and I am utterly clueless if you put me in front of a Mac.
It happens that I did not need to read a manual before using Android for most of its features. I only had to run to Google and a bit of a manual for a few relatively obscure things. And, for some reason, I was never completely clueless on a Mac. (Though, sometimes the differences in standard keyboard shortcuts would throw me.)
I did not need a manual for much of Windows 8, either. But, I did have to suffer through figuring basic things out, such as how to search for system utilities. And, how to bring up the navigation bar in the Modern UI of IE. Etc. You know, basic things that shouldn't need to be a struggle, at all.

But, this thread isn't about me. Your "RTFM" reply indicates that one needs to learn how to use an OS before they can properly use it. For those who have already used many different OSes, including previous versions of Windows, this should not be necessary.

Even after I "RTFM", why on Earth, would I want to use an OS that delivers a blank screen when I search for something? Or covers the video I am running, when bringing up a new application? There are certain problems the OS has, that "RTFM" won't help. (not without additional tools installed)

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Let's just put this in perspective for the casual reader of this thread -
I, personally, don't even care who Nielsen is. This thread isn't about him, either (at least I presume not).

One can evaluate the arguments he is making independently of who he is. I happen to think most of what he says makes sense. I think most of the counter-responses you linked to don't really argue against him, that much. Most of it is "get used to it" and "just learn how to use it", etc.

(Ah, I remember the days when people defended the Office Assistant. Memories. Sheesh.)

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Somehow I almost* feel vaguely guilty for not having all of the problems I'm supposed to be having switching to Win8 on a non-touchscreen machine.

It's almost like I'm letting the home team down.

(*: "almost" being the operative term in this case.)
You don't have to feel guilty. Chances are someone is probably going to like it. There is never an ill wind that doesn't blow in someone's direction.
(That doesn't mean the wind wasn't largely an ill one, though.)

One CAN learn Win8, and get used to its foibles, and not have many issues. It's just that other OSes, including previous versions of Windows, were better for more types of users.
And, it helps if you have a touch screen.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

Last edited by Wowbagger; 6th January 2013 at 01:11 PM.
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 01:24 PM   #257
Charlie Wilkes
Illuminator
 
Charlie Wilkes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,566
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Sorry to not reach your high standards of brilliance, but I needed to RFTM to understand my first android phone, and I am utterly clueless if you put me in front of a Mac.
Really?

I find UIs generally follow similar conventions for most of what I do, and I can work with any of them. The complexity arises when it becomes necessary to change the settings of the system, to fix things that don't work right, or to optimize it for certain tasks. This is why I wish MS would stop changing the damned UI. Does anyone use Windows because it's better designed than any other OS? I don't think so. Linux developers working in their spare time design UIs that are at least as good. But Windows is required for the software most people want to use, so we are stuck with it.

The good news about Windows 8 seems to be that MS has fixed the broken networking of Vista/Windows 7. No more staring at the park bench, wondering whether it would be better to kill myself or someone else. Hooray for that.
Charlie Wilkes is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 01:49 PM   #258
KoihimeNakamura
Creativity Murderer
 
KoihimeNakamura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In 2.5 million spinning tons of metal, above Epsilion Eridani III
Posts: 7,903
Yeah. I dualboot Win 7/8, although I haven't poked at 8 in weeks. It's got better dual monitor support, sooo.

That said I hate Metro, so I find Classic Start + never using it works well.
__________________
Don't mind me.
KoihimeNakamura is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 02:13 PM   #259
Alan
Illuminator
 
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,705
Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
Ubuntu Linux dropped Gnome Desktop in favor of a new hybrid touch/KM interface called Unity (which is far less obtrusive than the changes in Win8), and have since dropped from 1st to 3rd in popularity.
That is overly simplistic. If you google Linux Mint or Mageia or a lot of others, the distrowatch page link is close to the top and so they get lots of hits to their distrowatch pages. This is not the case for Ubuntu, which has its various sites closer to the top in google results (Linux Mint's distrowatch page is the 3rd result, Mageia, 4th, Ubuntu: bottom of first page). That would absolutely mean a lot fewer clicks on it. Looking at Google trends of how often people type these things in show Ubuntu is still far ahead in google searches. http://www.google.com/trends/explore...geia%22&cmpt=q

Also, Ubuntu has separate pages on distrowatch for the different flavours whereas Linux Mint just has the one for its different versions. Adding Lubuntu, Kubuntu etc page views and it gets to be pretty much Linux Mint's total.

Also, Linux Mint gained attention for maintaining a traditional desktop paradigm from a range of people, not just people moving from Ubuntu as several other distros have switched to Gnome Shell as default.

And other things like it just measuring page hits on a particular source and not use or downloads etc.

Last edited by Alan; 6th January 2013 at 02:28 PM.
Alan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 03:18 PM   #260
John Albert
Illuminator
 
John Albert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,140
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Except if you look at it, it's been "proven" in no small spart by putting people in the touch interface on desktop machines. Why on earth wouldn't you put them in the desktop interface, which is virtually identical to Windows 7.

Except that in real-world usage, users would have to interact with both the desktop interface and the "Metro" interface. There's no separating the two without resorting to 3rd-party utilities.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yes, there are also plenty of other reviews talking about how Nielsen is wrong

Sure there are dissenting opinions. It's been a lively debate so far. But I think Nielsen (among others) makes some excellent points in his criticism of Windows 8.

As for the smattering of examples you posted, I'll address all those in order:

  • Craig Pugsley (http://craigpugsley.wordpress.com/20...out-windows-8/) is arguing that the cognitive overhead of learning Windows 8 will all come out in the wash because users will acquire a new set of skills that will translate into the next generation of touch interfaces. It's roughly the same argument you're making, that "people will get used to it," except that Pugley frames it in more proper industry terminology. Puglsey's argument, like yours, is predicated not on established rules of interactive design or the results of actual usability testing, but on personal experience and opinion.

    As I have already pointed out, "people will get used to it" is not a valid excuse for bad usability design that places an undue burden on the user. When a task once accomplished in two seconds with one click now requires seven clicks, plus the traversal of one or more modal interface changes and the accompanying momentary confusion costing over fifteen seconds, that is an example of a regressive design change.

    He proceeds to review Windows 8 from the perspective of a touchscreen interface, totally ignoring the fact that many users will most likely be using traditional keyboard/mouse interfaces instead of touchscreens.

    His statements about multitasking are pretty off-base in my opinion. Just because average users might enjoy the feeling of jumping around willy-nilly from distraction to distraction while working, that doesn't mean it's a good practice that an operating system ought to indulge.

    While it's true that humans are ultimately capable of only preemptive multitasking, "tasks" as envisioned by the user are not necessarily synonymous with discrete applications per se. Many user tasks (such as snapping a photo, cropping it and adding a caption, and then posting it on Facebook) might be a linear process involving a number of apps in quick succession. Some kinds of work, like software development or magazine page layout might involve a lot of bouncing back and forth among four or five different applications all day long, and Windows 8 does not facilitate that kind of workflow. Opening new programs is hindered by interstital B.S. like a full-screen "Metro interface"; the "Snap-view" restricts the user's view to only two applications at a time and conceals most of the information in whatever application is not actively selected, severely limiting the user's ability to work among several applications.

    Puglsey basically argues that Microsoft is justified in sacrificing usability in the endeavor of transitioning users toward a more touchscreen-based future, but I see it as another example of Microsoft making another inelegant, overwrought software product loaded with unnecessary features and bad design decisions, many of which are inscrutable from a UX perspective. He makes the point that there are a number of good ideas crammed into Windows 8, but doesn't effectively refute the view that the implementation is haphazard and intrusive.
  • The CBS guy, Craig Johnson (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505143_1...n-or-disaster/) runs down Nielsen's criticisms and then calls Nielsen "wrong" on the same obtuse premise that "people will get used to it." He even shows a glimmer of objectivity by correctly following up with the logical question whether traversing the learning curve will even be worth it in the long run, but then he totally blows it by reaching the non-conclusion, "only time will tell." Not really much of a rebuttal after all.
  • The "Warptest" review (http://warptest.com/2012/11/windows-...-mostly-wrong/) was even way worse. For a self-proclaimed "software testing" guy, this Jonathan Ross "I do things to your software" clown seems blissfully unaware of Nielsen or his monumental contributions to the industry. He declares Nielsen "wrong" and then proceeds to mock the NN Group's website as looking all "Windows 95," despite the fact that Nieslen is not a visual designer by profession.

    Ross admits he has no testing team, but he did watch a bunch of people playing around with it for a few minutes. This he observed at a display booth at a Microsoft-sponsored seminar. You know, the kind of place where nearly all of the patrons are by default people whose entire careers center around Microsoft. Surprise, surprise, everyone was generally positive and impressed. He might as well have gone looking for critical opinions about the new iPhone in the Cupertino, California Apple Company Store.

    But look: he posted YouTube clips of The Simpsons and Star Trek: TOS!

    (Did you even bother to read any of these before posting them as evidence in favor of your wiewpoint?)
  • The RIAgenic guy, Scott Barnes (http://www.riagenic.com/archives/1000), apparently sets out not to defend Microsoft, so much as to criticize Jakob Nielsen. He cites a scathing criticism of Flash from the year 2000 as an example of how off-base Nielsen must be. Where the hell has this guy been over the past 5 years? Funny that he chose that article as an example of Nielsen allegedly being behind the times, considering that all of Nielsen's points are precisely the reasons why Flash is being dropped like a hot potato from platform after platform now in 2013. Flash is dead in the water for exactly the reasons Nielsen described a dozen years ago: resource hogging, slow to load, conducive to bad design, and the fact that it's a nonstandard tech that requires the troublesome installation and maintenance of an extraneous, proprietary plug-in.

    As for his critique of Nielsen's actual points, at times he almost seems to be trolling. Many of his criticisms appear based on either erroneous or willful misunderstandings of the actual points made in the article; at one point he reiterates his dislike of the appearance of the NN Group website as a possible reason for disagreeing with its contents.

    He does make a few good points and forwards some creative alternatives (most notably in that section on "Responsive vs Adaptive Design"), but ultimately fails to rebut the viewpoint that eliminating multiple windows on a desktop interface is a huge misstep.

    But hey, another snarky Simpsons gif! Yay!
  • The .NET Magazine article (http://www.netmagazine.com/opinions/...n-wrong-mobile) isn't even about Windows 8; it's about Nielsen's recommendations for mobile Web design.

    I'll ask you again: did you even read these, or are you just posting them willy-nilly in Gish gallop fashion to overhwhelm me with too much noise to effectively rebut?
  • The C/Net article (http://asia.cnet.com/heres-why-jakob...g-62219546.htm) is one I've already addressed. Pointing at Steve Jobs and citing the market success of Apple is a red herring; it does not even address Nielsen's critique of Windows 8. Just because Apple happened to get some UI design right in the iPad, allegedly without user testing (dunno if I really believe that), that does not mean that all design should be done that way, or that user experience testing itself is in any way outmoded.

    Moreover, the article generally agrees with Neilsen that Windows 8 is terrible. It just quibbles over the reasons why. It cites "Microsoft having bad taste" as the cause, over Nielsen's thoughtful examination of their poor attention to actual UX issues. So the article basically follows the formula of a classic "groaner" joke: an elaborate and verbose lead-up to an unfunny, throwaway punch-line.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Sure, on the non-touch interface works great on non-touch hardware. It's virtually the same as windows 7!
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I'm talking about the cognitive transition, things as simple as explaining "if you're using a non-touch device, then your primary interface in Windows 8 should continue to be the desktop"

But the desktop experience is pre-empted with that "Metro" garbage whenever you have need to access functionality formerly triggered through the Start Menu, because the Start Menu no longer exists!

A better solution might have been to make the OS capable of operating in either of two discrete modes—touchscreen mode or KVM mode—and made that switchable in the settings. The thing they did with the Start menu is simply horrendous.
__________________
“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
—Mark Twain

Last edited by John Albert; 6th January 2013 at 04:21 PM.
John Albert is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 03:35 PM   #261
John Albert
Illuminator
 
John Albert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,140
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
That is overly simplistic. If you google Linux Mint or Mageia or a lot of others, the distrowatch page link is close to the top and so they get lots of hits to their distrowatch pages. This is not the case for Ubuntu, which has its various sites closer to the top in google results (Linux Mint's distrowatch page is the 3rd result, Mageia, 4th, Ubuntu: bottom of first page). That would absolutely mean a lot fewer clicks on it. Looking at Google trends of how often people type these things in show Ubuntu is still far ahead in google searches. http://www.google.com/trends/explore...geia%22&cmpt=q

Also, Ubuntu has separate pages on distrowatch for the different flavours whereas Linux Mint just has the one for its different versions. Adding Lubuntu, Kubuntu etc page views and it gets to be pretty much Linux Mint's total.

Also, Linux Mint gained attention for maintaining a traditional desktop paradigm from a range of people, not just people moving from Ubuntu as several other distros have switched to Gnome Shell as default.

And other things like it just measuring page hits on a particular source and not use or downloads etc.

It's been widely reported that Ubuntu lost significant market share after switching from Gnome to Unity. Are you disputing that claim?

Where can accurate statistics be found regarding the actual desktop user adoption of various distros? Can they be found at all?
__________________
“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
—Mark Twain
John Albert is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 03:49 PM   #262
Tsukasa Buddha
Other (please write in)
 
Tsukasa Buddha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 12,636
So... I how about those Ribbons?

(They still irk me for some reason.)
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn
Tsukasa Buddha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 04:05 PM   #263
John Albert
Illuminator
 
John Albert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,140
I don't like ribbons either, though I can see how some people might. At least they're user-customizable which is a plus.
__________________
“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
—Mark Twain
John Albert is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 04:08 PM   #264
Alan
Illuminator
 
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,705
I was primarily disputing that distrowatch page hits for Ubuntu, Linux Mint and Mageia can be used to compare the popularity of these distros for the reasons I gave.

There are not very good stats comparing usage share between distros but Ubuntu would still be ahead of Linux Mint by a wide margin in terms of usage share.

Last edited by Alan; 6th January 2013 at 04:15 PM.
Alan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 04:24 PM   #265
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,013
Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
Except that in real-world usage, users would have to interact with both the desktop interface and the "Metro" interface.
Just to be clear, I don't really consider the start screen to be the "Metro interface" per se. It's a reformatted start menu. The Metro interface (and it's problems on a desktop machine) is with the apps.The start screen is not functionally different to any other menu. Find what you want and click on it.

Quote:
Puglsey's argument, like yours, is predicated not on the results of actual usability testing, but on personal experience and opinion.
So find us some usability testing where the users were instructed on the changes and given days or weeks to get used to it. How long did Nielsen's "12 experienced users" use it for exactly? Did they get to see the install tutorials about where to find things?

Quote:
When a task once accomplished in two seconds with one click now requires seven clicks, plus the traversal of one or more modal interface changes and fifteen seconds, that is an example of a regressive design change.
Virtually every example of this given by Wowbagger was wrong. Can you give some?

Quote:
He proceeds to review Windows 8 from the perspective of a touchscreen interface, totally ignoring the fact that many users will most likely be using traditional keyboard/mouse interfaces instead of touchscreens.
So let me get this straight. You think it's right for Nielsen to test the touch screen apps on non-touch screens, but wrong for Pugsley to test the touch screen apps ... on touch screens.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Quote:
Windows 8 does not facilitate that kind of workflow.
How? The desktop is virtually unchanged from Windows 7.

Quote:
Opening new programs is hindered by interstital B.S. like a full-screen "Metro interface";
And my old windows 7 machine used to have menus so deep they virtually covered the screen trying to find stuff. I find the start screen, and particularly the ability to group more commonly used apps at the start, to be far more efficient.

Quote:
the "Snap-view" restricts the user's view to only two applications at a time and conceals most of the information in whatever application is not actively selected, severely limiting the user's ability to work among several applications.
Now you're being absolutely disingenuous. I'm sitting here right now using Windows 8 with two screens and 7 apps open, all windowed.

Your "criticisms" are like you sat down for dinner with a knife and fork and keep complaining how bad the fork is at cutting things when you actively chose to use the fork instead of the knife.
  • The CBS guy, Craig Johnson (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505143_1...n-or-disaster/) runs down Nielsen's criticisms and then calls Nielsen "wrong" on the same obtuse premise that "people will get used to it." He even shows a glimmer of objectivity by correctly following up with the logical question whether traversing the learning curve will even be worth it in the long run, but then he totally blows it by reaching the non-conclusion, "only time will tell." Not really much of a rebuttal after all.

Quote:
He does make a few good points and forwards some creative alternatives (most notably in that section on "Responsive vs Adaptive Design"), but ultimately fails to rebut the viewpoint that eliminating multiple windows on a desktop interface is a huge misstep.
How about because THEY HAVEN'T ELIMINATE MULTIPLE WINDOWS ON A DESKTOP INTERFACE!

Have YOU even used Windows 8? You're just continuing to spout the same old BS I keep reading elsewhere.

Quote:
The .NET Magazine article (http://www.netmagazine.com/opinions/...n-wrong-mobile) isn't even about Windows 8; it's about Nielsen's recommendations for mobile Web design.
I didn't say they were all about windows 8, just about Nielsen being wrong. He often is, most famously on the iPad.

Quote:
But the desktop experience is pre-empted with that "Metro" garbage whenever you have need to access functionality formerly triggered through the Start Menu, because the Start Menu no longer exists!
Like what?

Let's look at some of Nielsen's commentary -

Quote:
* Users have to learn and remember where to go for which features.
Just like any other OS.

Quote:
* When running web browsers in both device areas, users will only see (and be reminded of) a subset of their open web pages at any given time.
Why on earth would you be running web browsers in both device areas?

Doesn't this same problem exist when switching between a desktop and an ipad, which is the kind of situation W8 is trying to address?

Quote:
* Switching between environments increases the interaction cost of using multiple features.
And switching between an iPad and a desktop machine doesn't?

Quote:
* The two environments work differently, making for an inconsistent user experience
And me switching between my windows desktop and my Samsung tablet doesn't?

Quote:
"Windows" no longer supports multiple windows on the screen.
Completely and utterly false. I'm using multiple windows right now. It's inexcusable that Nielsen could make such an outrageously wrong claim.

Quote:
In that task, we asked users to change the start screen background color
Seriously? How many people can do this in Windows 7? But yes, there are some in consistencies in this area, I agree. Not exactly a day to day task though, is it?

Quote:
Low Information Density
Where he criticises third party apps that look a lot like the wildly popular Flipbook. , but says Microsoft's guidelines must be encouraging it, but then ...

Quote:
Overly Live Tiles Backfire
Where he criticises third party apps but then offers some positive examples - all from Microsoft!

Quote:
Charms Are Hidden Generic Commands
I agree with many of the criticisms here. It takes a while to get used to the fact the Charms bar exists, which I don't have a problem with per se, but it is also then inconsistent in it's interactions with whatever you're running. It's also (and he doesn't mention this) a disaster in the desktop mode when using multiple monitors.

Quote:
Error-Prone Gestures
Similar issues occur on most touch devices. A couple of weeks ago I bought a Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 and I'm still getting swipes wrong.

Again, for me most of the criticisms of Windows 8 come down to poor marketing. Microsoft hasn't explained what the OS is all about, so people are testing it inappropriately.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 04:29 PM   #266
John Albert
Illuminator
 
John Albert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,140
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
I was primarily disputing that distrowatch page hits for Ubuntu, Linux Mint and Mageia can be used to compare the popularity of these distros for the reasons I gave.

There are not very good stats comparing usage share between distros but Ubuntu would still be ahead of Linux Mint by a wide margin in terms of usage share.

Yeah, especially considering that Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, et al would be listed as Ubuntu when doing a cat /etc/issue, despite the fact they all use different window managers and no Unity. I guess Linux usage is tough to gauge anyway, considering that many long-time users have a tendency to bounce around from distro to distro.

So how can we determine if there's any truth to the allegations that Ubuntu lost significant market share after 11.10, and has lost further ground in each release since?
__________________
“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
—Mark Twain

Last edited by John Albert; 6th January 2013 at 05:19 PM.
John Albert is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 05:00 PM   #267
John Albert
Illuminator
 
John Albert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,140
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Just to be clear, I don't really consider the start screen to be the "Metro interface" per se. It's a reformatted start menu. The Metro interface (and it's problems on a desktop machine) is with the apps.The start screen is not functionally different to any other menu. Find what you want and click on it.

It is part of the "Metro" interface (why would you choose to say it isn't?) and it does obscure the entirety of the screen when activated. That represents an interstitial/modal interrupt of the workflow.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
So find us some usability testing where the users were instructed on the changes and given days or weeks to get used to it.

The users are usually given instruction on how to use the software, but to have them spend days or weeks to prepare would kind of defeat the point of usability testing.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
You think it's right for Nielsen to test the touch screen apps on non-touch screens, but wrong for Pugsley to test the touch screen apps ... on touch screens.

No, I never said anything about apps. I'm talking about the operating system. Please stop conflating the two. It's dishonest.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
And my old windows 7 machine used to have menus so deep they virtually covered the screen trying to find stuff. I find the start screen, and particularly the ability to group more commonly used apps at the start, to be far more efficient.

Yours appears to be a rare case. While it's true that the Start menu has been expanded larger and larger with each Windows version to take up more and more screen real estate, it never before blocked out the entire screen by default. That represents an unnecessary obstruction to the workflow.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Your "criticisms" are like you sat down for dinner with a knife and fork and keep complaining how bad the fork is at cutting things when you actively chose to use the fork instead of the knife.

More like somebody created a new utensil with the knife grafted onto the fork, so you can't use the knife without the fork constantly getting in the way.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Have YOU even used Windows 8? You're just continuing to spout the same old BS I keep reading elsewhere.

Yes. I've tested it on my own machine in VirtualBox.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I didn't say they were all about windows 8, just about Nielsen being wrong. He often is, most famously on the iPad.

All this talk about Jakob Nielsen is frankly a bit off-topic. However, his comments about the iPad mostly focused on the poor UI of the apps available at the time.

Why do you always seem so bent on conflating the discussion of operating systems with discussions of third-party apps? Do you not understand the difference?


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Again, for me most of the criticisms of Windows 8 come down to poor marketing. Microsoft hasn't explained what the OS is all about, so people are testing it inappropriately.

"For you"?

Why don't you explain to us "what this OS is all about" in your own words, because an awful lot of people appear to be very confused about it.

Doesn't it strike you as a little strange that any modern operating system should require somebody to spend so much time explaining basic premises and giving instructions on how to accomplish fundamental tasks? That to me indicates a glaring failure of usability.
__________________
“In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
—Mark Twain

Last edited by John Albert; 6th January 2013 at 05:08 PM.
John Albert is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 05:09 PM   #268
Alan
Illuminator
 
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,705
I tried to look at ways we can infer that. I looked at Alexa rankings of their websites but I didn't see tracking over that time period . The Google search trends I posted before show Ubuntu going down but that started in 2009 and continues. Perhaps mirror owners (of multiple) can give the best unbiased idea. I don't know.

Ubuntu would have lost a portion of its users but it had so many to begin with. I would be a surprised if they lost users on 12.04 (it was so well reviewed), but not surprised with 11.04, 11.10 or 12.10.

Last edited by Alan; 6th January 2013 at 05:20 PM.
Alan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 06:52 PM   #269
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,013
Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
It is part of the "Metro" interface (why would you choose to say it isn't?)
It's the same style, but it's not a Metro app, which are specifically designed for touch screens, I just consider them different, as the issues that arise with the touch apps on a desktop don't really occur with the Start Screen.

Quote:
and it does obscure the entirety of the screen when activated. That represents an interstitial/modal interrupt of the workflow.
I never said it didn't. If you're selecting some new app from a menu, aren't you by definition interrupting your workflow?

Quote:
The users are usually given instruction on how to use the software, but to have them spend days or weeks to prepare would kind of defeat the point of usability testing.
It's amazing we ever got cars.

Quote:
No, I never said anything about apps. I'm talking about the operating system. Please stop conflating the two. It's dishonest.
Rubbish. You referred directly to Nielsen's critique - a large part of which is regarding apps, yet now you claim you're not talking about apps.

Quote:
That represents an unnecessary obstruction to the workflow.
Again, how is opening an entirely new app not already an obstruction to workflow?

How is switching to an entirely new device with an entirely different OS not already an obstruction to workflow?

Quote:
More like somebody created a new utensil with the knife grafted onto the fork, so you can't use the knife without the fork constantly getting in the way.
I've been using Windows 8 since the betas, many months. Every day for many hours. How come all these things aren't getting in my way?

Quote:
Yes. I've tested it on my own machine in VirtualBox.
And that gives you as much insight in to the OS as someone who has been using it for hours, every day, for months?

Quote:
Why do you always seem so bent on conflating the discussion of operating systems with discussions of third-party apps? Do you not understand the difference?
Did you read Neilsen's report or not?

Quote:
Why don't you explain to us "what this OS is all about" in your own words, because an awful lot of people appear to be very confused about it.
In one words - Surface.

(well, two words really, Surface Pro)

But I'll be a marketer -

Windows 8 is designed to bridge the world between all your devices. Whether it be your xbox, phone, tablet, desktop machine, or new wired appliances under development, Windows 8 gives you a consistent experience across all of them.

The new Modern User Interface is designed primarily for use on touch devices, but Windows 8 also has the old Windows 7 desktop interface you've grown to love. If you're at your desk, you have the full power of the windows 7 desktop, with all the same programs and abilities as before.

If you're out and about then the same machine is now a powerful tablet, with an interface and apps specifically designed for touch.

Windows 8. Simplify your life.


That's what windows 8 is about - developing one interface for all these different appliances. Phone, xbox, PC, tablet, and now home automation systems. Isn't it obvious what they're trying to do?

You can't, at least not yet, throw away the desktop, and I'm not sure if you ever will be able to, but this is a bold attempt to unify all the differing emerging technologies. People right now are bouncing between their iPhone and their Windows PC and their android tablet.

How is having the same (or at least, very similar) interface on all of them not dramatically less disruptive than moving between completely different OSs?

Quote:
Doesn't it strike you as a little strange that any modern operating system should require somebody to spend so much time explaining basic premises and giving instructions on how to accomplish fundamental tasks? That to me indicates a glaring failure of usability.
You and I have very very very different judgments about what "so much time" means. I spent, oh, 5 minutes explaining the differences to my non-techie wife. Apart from the touchpad problem (referenced earlier) was solved there's been no issues at all.

I don't consider 5 minutes to be "so much time".
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 07:11 PM   #270
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 14,699
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Virtually every example of this given by Wowbagger was wrong. Can you give some?
This is what it's like to find where the Windows Event Viewer is, for the first time.

Windows 7: Click Start. Type "eve" (you don't need anything else). Click the icon for it.

Windows 8: Open the Charms bar. Click Search. (Screen goes away.) Type "eve", nothing comes up. continue typing out "nt viewer". Still nothing comes up. Hmmm.... Maybe it's in Control Panel, this time. No. Search Google for the answer, or visit your local Microsoft Store (like I did, because Google didn't even have an answer at the time). Aha! Click "Settings", under Search to find the program, after typing "event viewer" again. Click the icon for it. (It's not until you click the icon that you get back to the desktop.)

You can do it in fewer steps the second time around. But, that's a lot of rigamarole for something that should be a fairly simple process, even if only IT people care about it. And, unless it's pinned to something, there is always a modal change (into Modern UI and out again) you have to go through, anyway.

If I am wrong about that, I must be delusional.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

Last edited by Wowbagger; 6th January 2013 at 07:27 PM. Reason: Mild corrections on Win8 steps
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 07:26 PM   #271
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 14,699
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
You can't, at least not yet, throw away the desktop, and I'm not sure if you ever will be able to, but this is a bold attempt to unify all the differing emerging technologies. People right now are bouncing between their iPhone and their Windows PC and their android tablet.
No, you can't throw away the desktop, yet. But, with the lack of Start buttons and classic Start Menus, it sure looks like they're trying!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
How is having the same (or at least, very similar) interface on all of them not dramatically less disruptive than moving between completely different OSs?
It might be worth trying to tie together a unified interface for all those devices, not too many people are arguing that.

But Windows 8 does it wrong. It takes portable devices a little bit backwards (there is no reason windowing can't work on a tablet, they just chose not to do it, while others are gearing up to do so.); and the desktop way, WAY backwards.

Someday, someone will devise an interface that can be a world-class usability champion for all computing devices one will use. But, Windows 8 probably ain't gonna be it!


Besides, the argument that there even NEEDs to be a single UI to rule them all is flawed. Yes, it would be NICE to have one. But, why can't we use a UI that is appropriate for the device it is installed on to, until someone does?

Your lawnmower probably has a different UI than your microwave oven. Maybe we should come up with a way to unify them! Let's start the microwave by yanking a cord on it, and make sure the timer setting is prominent and easy to use on the lawnmower!
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 08:29 PM   #272
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,013
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
This is what it's like to find where the Windows Event Viewer is, for the first time.

Windows 7: Click Start. Type "eve" (you don't need anything else). Click the icon for it.

Windows 8: Open the Charms bar. Click Search. (Screen goes away.) Type "eve", nothing comes up. continue typing out "nt viewer". Still nothing comes up. Hmmm.... Maybe it's in Control Panel, this time. No. Search Google for the answer, or visit your local Microsoft Store (like I did, because Google didn't even have an answer at the time). Aha! Click "Settings", under Search to find the program, after typing "event viewer" again. Click the icon for it. (It's not until you click the icon that you get back to the desktop.)

You can do it in fewer steps the second time around. But, that's a lot of rigamarole for something that should be a fairly simple process, even if only IT people care about it. And, unless it's pinned to something, there is always a modal change (into Modern UI and out again) you have to go through, anyway.

If I am wrong about that, I must be delusional.
If you say so.

Windows 8: Right click in bottom left corner. Click Event Viewer.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 08:30 PM   #273
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 14,699
Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
As for the smattering of examples you posted, I'll address all those in order:
I just wanted to say that I was about to write up my own responses to the linked counter-arguments. But, it looks like you saved me the trouble, for the most part. Thanks!

I find it really telling how even the most ardent of Windows 8 defenders are still implying that the thing is actually fairly flawed. And, that they will resort to the thinnest, least inspiring of arguments to defend the issue of "learning it", anyway.

Where did this sudden love for Microsoft come from?!
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 08:34 PM   #274
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 14,699
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Windows 8: Right click in bottom left corner. Click Event Viewer.

You know, it would have been nice if there was...

an on-screen prompt

....to get there!


Not even the folks in the Microsoft Store explained anything about right-clicking the corner. I didn't learn about that until a few days ago watching a video critical of the OS.

And, why do I need to right-click? In previous versions it was left-click, to get some of those same menu items. Right-click one place, left-click another. This is something I am just going to have to get used to, right?!
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 08:40 PM   #275
icerat
Philosopher
 
icerat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,013
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
You know, it would have been nice if there was...

an on-screen prompt

....to get there!
Or you could just RTFM. Then you'd know.
__________________
Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available
icerat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 09:06 PM   #276
Hungry81
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 417
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Or you could just RTFM. Then you'd know.
Or Microsoft could get rid of metro/modern, charms and the other bs and stop trying to suicide on desktops the way they did with phones.

They effectively giftwrapped their userbase and market share and handed them over to android when Apple entered the scene, causing them to fearcrap wp7 out onto their users

Windows 8 metro/modern UI is a lazy and terrible start menu replacement.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 09:12 PM   #277
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 14,699
Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Or you could just RTFM. Then you'd know.
Don't you get it, already?!!

Isn't it a sign of fundamental design flaws, when you HAVE TO read a manual to use BASIC features of the operating system?!

Why should I NEED to read a manual for Windows 8, when I most certainly did NOT need to do such a thing, for ANY OTHER operating system I have EVER used, going aaaaaall the way back to Windows 3.1?! (I will admit MS-DOS required some manual reading, if that's of some consolation to you.)

When I have to use someone's iPad (which happens on rare occasions), I don't need to read a manual, first. I just pick it up and get to using it! Even for its small number of "power user" features.

If I had to borrow a Surface, and didn't know everything I already know about Windows 8, how the HELL am I supposed to be able to use the thing with the same proficiency?!


By claiming I have to RTFM first, you are implying, and even conceding the point, that Windows 8 really does not have an intuitive UI. And, THAT is what we, in the software industry, like to refer to as...

.. a design flaw!

If you don't see it like that, then perhaps you will remember this: By your own argument (an intuitive UI is "what you are used to"), Windows 8 is flawed. Not even someone who used Windows since 3.1 and onward would be "used to" this type of UI.

Your arguments have been demolished, so far. I hope you have some fresh ones.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

Last edited by Wowbagger; 6th January 2013 at 09:15 PM.
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 10:42 PM   #278
quadraginta
What was the question?
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 9,907
Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
Except that in real-world usage, users would have to interact with both the desktop interface and the "Metro" interface. There's no separating the two without resorting to 3rd-party utilities.

<snip>

Darn it. I guess I've been doing it wrong.

I just right click on the Metro thumbnail and click on "Desktop". If I just started up the machine and get the Metro screen I click on the "Desktop" pane instead.

What third party utility should I be getting?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2013, 10:49 PM   #279
quadraginta
What was the question?
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 9,907
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
You know, it would have been nice if there was...

an on-screen prompt

....to get there!


Not even the folks in the Microsoft Store explained anything about right-clicking the corner. I didn't learn about that until a few days ago watching a video critical of the OS.

And, why do I need to right-click? In previous versions it was left-click, to get some of those same menu items. Right-click one place, left-click another. This is something I am just going to have to get used to, right?!

I know people who used XP for years and were dumbfounded when I showed them the menu that came up when they right-clicked an empty part of the task bar. How easy was it to get to the Task Manager (or the Desktop for that matter) without knowing about that? Less than two clicks?

Even the Start button itself had some right-click surprises.

I tend to experiment a lot, so I found those without RTFM, just as I did with the Metro thumbnail, but that's just me. How did you find out?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2013, 05:19 AM   #280
Rrose Selavy
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
 
Rrose Selavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,327
From my limited experience of it, on a PC , the Modern UI is more like a glorified (potentially interactive) screensaver , a "tiled wall" to get past, to the desktop.
But at the office where the old desktop was , all the furniture's been taken away except the wastepaper basket.
Rrose Selavy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Computers and the Internet

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:38 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.