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#41 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2011
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But if its real, why wouldn't we notice it happening to ourselves, even if we were travelling close to the speed of light?
Normally, we say that something happens IN THE PLACE WHERE IT HAPPENS! This is why Hawkins was confused about time dilation. He didn't know if it was actually happening or not. |
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#42 |
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#43 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,504
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On the contrary. Science works. Thanks to science you and I can expect to live twice as long as our forefathers. Thanks to science, satellites in orbit can calculate our position on this earth in ways that explorers of years gone would have killed to have been capable of this. Thanks to science, far fewer global man-hours go towards food production, and even basic survival, and more into leasurely activities... and of course, science.
Science works. Pseudoscientific kookery does not. |
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#44 |
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,831
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Because velocity is relative. We don't travel relative to ourselves; we travel relative to other things.
Quote:
"Bob went from Chicago to New York." That doesn't happen at any particular place; it happens in the travel between places. Moreso: "Bob flew from Chicago to New York at 300 mph." The 300 mph isn't relative to Bob but is rather relative to the Earth's reference frame that includes Chicago and New York. Just because effects are relational or relative doesn't mean they're not real. Bob's movement is measurable and real, even if it's relative to something other than himself. |
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#45 |
Banned
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You must check up on what you said. Einstein wanted us to know that no matter how fast we were travelling, we would appear the same to ourselves. And so it is. There can be no such thing as time going slower (or faster) for us. Everything on the train is unchanged.
Things happen where they happen. But it seems that you, and Hawking, and the relatavists, are describing things as they happen as a function of being somewhere else. I've been saying, indicating, for quite some time now that clocks don't measure time. |
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#46 |
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I notice that you quoted my reference to the muon experiment but didn't comment upon it. Are you familiar with this experiment, which demonstrates time dilation quite adequately, and do you have any questions about it?
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#47 |
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Then it would appear that motion is a happening that always happens somewhere else. But the point is, if it happens somewhere else, and it doesn't actually happen somewhere else, then where does it happen?
Where is the real in time dilation? Is the happening of time dilation always somewhere else? There is no such place as always somewhere else. |
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#48 |
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#49 |
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#50 |
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#51 |
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#52 |
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
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#53 |
Philosopher
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The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep |
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#54 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,504
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Bollocks. That's not how science works, and you *know* it. That's how kookery works, and is evidenced by your own actions in all of your threads. You're shown wrong, again and again and again, yet you refuse to even consider it.
In short, you're projecting your own faults onto scientists. |
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#55 |
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The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep |
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#56 |
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Posts: 1,147
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[quote=Brian-M;8897251][quote=Jonesboy;8896375]If, now, we bring in a second monad clock, call it clock B, that is travelling more slowly we find that ticks can now be distinguished in one vital way. We still cannot say whether there is a gap between ticks for either of the clocks, but we can determine whether one clock is giving more sets of ticks than another clock.
Quote:
This is no problem for the mathematician of course, whose sets are thrown up without the slightest regard for how they arise. I don't want to have a mathematical set, it is an insignificant proposal. I could speak of the totality of ticks from each clock, for a total gives a terminus or fixed point that can establish subdivisions among the ticks or make sets sets of ticks, perhaps by mapping the ticks between clocks. But that seems a cheat also. Even if I bring in a third monad clock to relate the ticks from the other two, its ticks will also arise timelessly and be quite useless at forging relationships. The problem seems that without a sequenced continuum like time then I have no means of making a comparison between the amount of ticks each clock makes. But then even a continuum, like time, won't help me. It doesn't help to say that we can compare the rates at which each clock makes ticks by choosing them within a particular time period, for I still need to provide a real means of establishing the "same" time period, and, that the clocks are in the same continuum. On the other hand, a third monadic clock will have sets of ticks imposed on it from the other two clocks. It can then compare sets and see which one is travelling faster or making fewer ticks. Thus, monad or solitary clocks that are making fewer ticks can be said to be travelling faster. We have a new definition of speed and distance. The number of events is correlated to the distance or speed. However, as monads whose events are timeless, there is no change for the clocks themselves. This is an intuitive reason for Einsteins idea that clocks remain unchanged at speed. It would then be impossible to establish a relatavistic effect as any clocks we use will also have timeless ticks. This amounts to saying that a clock that makes fewer ticks is indistinguishable from a clock that makes more ticks. Which in turn amounts to saying that the ticks of a monad clock are not countable events. Which in turn amounts to saying that an event is, by nature, not singular or multiple. This eliminates the monad clock. More later. |
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#57 |
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#58 |
Philosopher
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Would a photon be your monad clock? Time doesn't pass for a photon, it doesn't change, but it has 'ticks' that can be counted by using the wavelength.
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#59 |
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#60 |
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That's right isn't it, time for a photon we might say doesnt exist (because of time dilation aka), or the number of events it encounters is zero.
Now there's a problem. if there is no time for a photon, how can it have two events like a change in wavelength. But does the wavelength really change? I know there's a red shift, but that's because of the stretching of space? Does it actually happen. If it does, then it shows that we can have more than one event for an entity that has zero life span. This would wreck the philosophy of time as used by the scientist. have to go now for a mo |
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#61 |
Philosopher
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The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep |
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#62 |
ETcorngods survivor
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#63 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#64 |
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#65 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Relativity says you're both right.
That may offend your intuition, but your intuition has been spectacularly unproductive so far. Relativity's answer is supported by an enormous body of experimental evidence. Your intuition, not so much. Relativity says your sense of "where" will be different, just as your sense of time will be different. Have you ever considered trying to understand math and science before you reject it? |
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#66 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
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Isn't time dilation proven real by how GPS satellites need their clocks set differently than ground clocks to make sure they synchronize properly?
Or is that not good enough evidence? |
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