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Old 19th January 2013, 03:44 PM   #521
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
Unreliable method. Some houses have only one entry/exit point.
Some? I'd say a very tiny minority of houses have only one entry/exit point. Running away is an option. Shooting a person with a gun is another option. I wouldn't say shooting is any more reliable than running away. It's really dependent on the particular situation. There are a variety of weapons inside the kitchen that can be used for self defense as well.

In other words, a fire-arm isn't the only self-defense tool and I doubt it's the most reliable.
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Old 19th January 2013, 03:46 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Not on option in my own home. I'm not running away in my own home.
It's an option. But if you would rather take a person's life than have your TV stolen, that's your baggage.
I see life as being a little more valuable than that.
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Old 19th January 2013, 03:48 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
From this source on number of gun deaths

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

The number of deaths in 1999 was 28,874. In 2011 it was 32,163. So the rate is going up.
"Gun deaths". Are you making the assumption that these deaths are caused by guns, or are the result of gun availability?

2/3 of those 32,000 deaths were suicides. The other 1/3 (roughly) are homicides.

Guns don't lead to suicides or homicides.

Why would you want to ban a law abiding citizen from arming himself, just because some murderers like to use guns, and some people decide to off themselves? And because more people are deciding to become murderers, and more people are deciding to off themselves?

Makes no sense to me!

Last edited by Light23; 19th January 2013 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 19th January 2013, 04:04 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It's an option. But if you would rather take a person's life than have your TV stolen, that's your baggage.
I see life as being a little more valuable than that.
If the only reason people broke into your home was to steal your TV, you might have a point (even then it's debatable), but that's not the case is it?
What if they want to steal your children? Or if , after stealing your TV, they decide it would be better for them if there weren't any witnesses left behind?
If a person breaks into your house, a rational person is justified in the belief that such an invasion constitutes a threat not juts to you TV (and other property) but to the safety of anyone in the house at the time.
Just how valuable do you consider your own life, and that of your family?
Less valuable than someone who uses force to enter your home?

ETA: To paraphrase Dennis Miller, There is nothing in my house worth more than my life, but there is nothing in my house worth less than your life.

Last edited by Chuck Guiteau; 19th January 2013 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 19th January 2013, 04:30 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
In other words, a fire-arm isn't the only self-defense tool and I doubt it's the most reliable.
The gun lobby in the US acts as if firearms and lethal force are the only option. Doing so helps to raise the level of fear and sell more guns.
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Old 19th January 2013, 04:43 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Then why does most EVERY COP IN THE COUNTRY carry an AR in his trunk? With a 30-round mag, no less!

Either they ARE good for defending life and limb, or there are serious questions that need to be asked about why cops are carrying weapons that are only good for mass, indiscriminate slaughter.
Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The gun lobby in the US acts as if firearms and lethal force are the only option. Doing so helps to raise the level of fear and sell more guns.
IMO: It's irrational to believe that having a gun with a high rate of fire and a high capacity magazine are some how necessary. An AK-47 with a high capacity clip might be an excellent means of self defense but is it a necessary one. It is this part of the gun culture that I'm most concerned with. Like religion we are being convinced that society has a disease called violence and the gun manufacturers have the cure.

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Old 19th January 2013, 04:44 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The gun lobby in the US acts as if firearms and lethal force are the only option. Doing so helps to raise the level of fear and sell more guns.
And who are you to declare what the gun lobby,Congress,or anyone else, feels?
Just to set the record straight, lethal force is the last option, not the first. But simply because it doesn't suit your world view doesn't take it off the table.
And most of the fear mongering is coming from your side. They are the ones taking events that have no statistical relevance and playing them up in order to further their agenda.
And I notice you didn't answer my questions.What's the matter, afraid?
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Old 19th January 2013, 05:27 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The gun lobby in the US acts as if firearms and lethal force are the only option. Doing so helps to raise the level of fear and sell more guns.
That has normally been the vibe I get from the anti-gun zealots. They seem to think that guns are only intended for killing, nothing about brandishing or threatening a bad guy to merely drive them away.

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Old 19th January 2013, 05:35 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
IMO: It's irrational to believe that having a gun with a high rate of fire and a high capacity magazine are some how necessary. An AK-47 with a high capacity clip might be an excellent means of self defense but is it a necessary one. It is this part of the gun culture that I'm most concerned with. Like religion we are being convinced that society has a disease called violence and the gun manufacturers have the cure.

http://imageshack.us/a/img831/7766/l...ngoyqi1fcg.gif
To me, it's less that I have to prove to the government why I need my freedoms, and more that they have to prove to me why they need to restrict them.

I have no problem in theory with being limited to 10 round magazines... but what's the point? I can't see how it's going to decrease the risk to people in a meaningful way.

You're already exceptionally unlikely to be involved in a mass shooting, and if you are, your risk is about the same regardless of whether the perp has to reload three times or not at all.

Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Like religion we are being convinced that society has a disease called violence and the gun manufacturers have the cure.
That's somewhat ironic. 11,000 US kids between ages 1-15 died in 2011. But when twenty kids die in a mass shooting the media wants to convince us we have a mass shooting problem, with the cure being to ban all firearms.

It's like pretending air travel is no longer safe on the rare occasion a plane drops out of the sky.

Last edited by Light23; 19th January 2013 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 19th January 2013, 05:37 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Chuck Guiteau View Post
If the only reason people broke into your home was to steal your TV, you might have a point (even then it's debatable), but that's not the case is it?
What if they want to steal your children? Or if , after stealing your TV, they decide it would be better for them if there weren't any witnesses left behind?
If a person breaks into your house, a rational person is justified in the belief that such an invasion constitutes a threat not juts to you TV (and other property) but to the safety of anyone in the house at the time.
Just how valuable do you consider your own life, and that of your family?
Less valuable than someone who uses force to enter your home?

ETA: To paraphrase Dennis Miller, There is nothing in my house worth more than my life, but there is nothing in my house worth less than your life.
I don't see how that precludes running away as a viable option. Even if I had a gun, I'd try to escape first. Unlike the gun advocates here, I know that having my own firearm doesn't make me impervious to bullets.

If someone is breaking into my house, me and my family are going to run away first.
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Old 19th January 2013, 05:38 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by Chuck Guiteau View Post
Just to set the record straight, lethal force is the last option, not the first.
Unless they are breaking into your house, according to some gun nuts.
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Old 19th January 2013, 05:39 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
That has normally been the vibe I get from the anti-gun zealots. They seem to think that guns are only intended for killing, nothing about brandishing or threatening a bad guy to merely drive them away.

Ranb
The threat isn't there without the lethal force to back it.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:02 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I don't see how that precludes running away as a viable option. Even if I had a gun, I'd try to escape first.

If someone is breaking into my house, me and my family are going to run away first.
Your children must be proud.
Little Sammy: My daddy taught me to man up when my family's in danger.
Little Ken,Jr. : My daddy taught me to run away.My daddy's smarter than your daddy!
Little Sammy: I guess you're right. Now why don't you give me your lunch money and then do what daddy told you to do?

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Unlike the gun advocates here, I know that having my own firearm doesn't make me impervious to bullets.
Drawn no doubt from the wealth of experience you are alluding to.
Why don't you pull us up a couple of quotes from gun advocates here where they claim that owning a firearm makes you impervious to bullets.
What was that thump I just heard? It sounded like you hitting the bottom of the credibility barrel.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:07 PM   #534
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I liked that last joke tbh.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:19 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
Even if our rights were somehow natural I really don't think the NRA would be a good defender of them all.
I agree with those who believe 2nd amendment is what defends all other rights.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:21 PM   #536
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Yes, there are other uses for firearms. I have no objection to hunting or target shooting with appropriate tools for the task. The problem for the industry is that traditional deer rifles and shotguns typically outlast hunters.

The gun industry drove growth by hyping fear of crime and promoting handguns as the solution. Now you needed a gun everyday, not just during deer or duck season. And to back up that handgun at home, you need something like an AR-15.

Never mind that when you shoot an AR-15 in a typical home, the bullets are going to go through your neighbors walls.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:28 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by Light23 View Post
To me, it's less that I have to prove to the government why I need my freedoms, and more that they have to prove to me why they need to restrict them.

I have no problem in theory with being limited to 10 round magazines... but what's the point? I can't see how it's going to decrease the risk to people in a meaningful way.

You're already exceptionally unlikely to be involved in a mass shooting, and if you are, your risk is about the same regardless of whether the perp has to reload three times or not at all.
I would agree with this provisionally.

Quote:
That's somewhat ironic. 11,000 US kids between ages 1-15 died in 2011. But when twenty kids die in a mass shooting the media wants to convince us we have a mass shooting problem, with the cure being to ban all firearms.

It's like pretending air travel is no longer safe on the rare occasion a plane drops out of the sky.
I'm not sure I see the irony. As horribly tragic as spree killings are I don't think the cause cιlθbre nature of the tragedy justified. I've no argument with you whatsoever. I most certainly believe the media irresponsible to say the least for fanning the flames of fear over spree killings.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:48 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It's an option. But if you would rather take a person's life than have your TV stolen, that's your baggage.
I see life as being a little more valuable than that.
I see my life, and the lives of my family as way more important than any risk I would take in assuming someone is only after my tv.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:52 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I don't see how that precludes running away as a viable option. Even if I had a gun, I'd try to escape first. Unlike the gun advocates here, I know that having my own firearm doesn't make me impervious to bullets.

If someone is breaking into my house, me and my family are going to run away first.
My house is split plan. I'm not going to run out and leave anyone behind.

Nobody here claims they're impervious to bullets.
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Old 19th January 2013, 07:00 PM   #540
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Out of interest, why are the anti-gun crowd only interested in the damage guns do, and not say, alcohol?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16738405

8,790 deaths from alcohol in a year! In a population of 60 million! Compare that to 11,000 gun homicides in a population of 300 million...

Surely if we are to "think of the children" and ban guns, because without them gun homicides cannot occur, why are we not also banning alcohol?* That's 8,790 deaths a year you could save right there!

And who after all, needs alcohol? Is your right to get blind drunk at the weekend because you're a loser who hates their life, more important than the lives of 8,790 mothers and fathers?!

Is this the point where we get to the "but guns are dangerous, they're designed for killing people and stealing the souls of kittens" argument?

To me, the "ban guns" argument is no different than a fundamentalist Muslim harping on about the evils of alcohol, about how the Koran forbids it, and about how it should be banned. If you truly believe something should be banned, you inevitably end up blaming any death not on the irresponsible, but on the fact that this terrible, evil thing isn't banned like it should be.

So your blame ends up directed at the people who don't want to ban it, rather than the people who are actually causing the problem.

/endrant


*Whoops, already tried that I guess.
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Old 19th January 2013, 07:01 PM   #541
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Originally Posted by AlBell View Post
I agree with those who believe 2nd amendment is what defends all other rights.
I don't. Personally I think it's pretty stupid to think it does and a gun owning populace does little to nothing in preventing a government with an organized military from cracking down on anyone they want.

By far the 1st amendment is, by far, our most important, probably followed by the 4th. The 2nd is barely more useful to the country as a whole than the third.
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Old 19th January 2013, 07:06 PM   #542
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Originally Posted by Light23 View Post
Out of interest, why are the anti-gun crowd only interested in the damage guns do, and not say, alcohol?
False consolation fallacy. FWIW: I'm not anti-gun.

Originally Posted by Dr. Jay VerLendin
False consolation is a fallacy because it fails to deny the claim. A person can be harmed and have things to be thankful for at the same time.
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I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 19th January 2013, 07:33 PM   #543
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I don't understand the objection to high cap mags, at least in relation to the school shootings that have sparked all this debate.
In Sandy Hook, would it have really mattered if he had a couple of thirty round mags, or 3 twenty round mags, or 6 ten round mags? He was shooting up a bunch of children trapped in a school. In the 15-20 minutes he had, it wouldn't have mattered if he used Lee Harvey Oswald's bolt action Mannlicher-Carcano. And just for the record, he apparently had some problems with a FTFF, as he did change mags several times before exhausting even a large portion of the ammo contained in them.

At VA Tech, Ho only used standard 10 round mags.

At Columbine, the only high capacity magazine was for the IR-99, which also failed, although they did get about 50 rounds of very ineffective fire out of it before it puked. If they had never carried the IT-99 at all, it wouldn't have made any difference. The vast majority of the people killed were with shots from the shotguns and the carbine, which only used standard mags.
There have only been about four or five school shooting which involved rifles with hi cap mags in the history of the US, counting the ones listed above.

Personally I have never cared for large capacity magazines, as they are too prone to malfunction and it is too easy to perform a combat reload, but I do not understand why, other than the fear mongering generated by the press and agenda driven politicians like Sen. Feinstein, that they seem to be such an issue.
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:56 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by Chuck Guiteau View Post
Your children must be proud.
Little Sammy: My daddy taught me to man up when my family's in danger.
Little Ken,Jr. : My daddy taught me to run away.My daddy's smarter than your daddy!
Little Sammy: I guess you're right. Now why don't you give me your lunch money and then do what daddy told you to do?


Drawn no doubt from the wealth of experience you are alluding to.
Why don't you pull us up a couple of quotes from gun advocates here where they claim that owning a firearm makes you impervious to bullets.
What was that thump I just heard? It sounded like you hitting the bottom of the credibility barrel.
Right. I guess you can keep your macho attitude and teach your children that it's better to kill someone than to run away. Nice. I'll take the less liable and peaceful route of running away.
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:58 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by Light23 View Post
Out of interest, why are the anti-gun crowd only interested in the damage guns do, and not say, alcohol?
Why are you so interested in protecting the 2nd amendment when you should be interested in protecting the 1st?
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Old 19th January 2013, 10:23 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by Light23 View Post
Out of interest, why are the anti-gun crowd only interested in the damage guns do, and not say, alcohol?
Because this is a thread about guns. If you want to talk about the dangers of alcohol, you are in the wrong thread.
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Old 20th January 2013, 01:24 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Right. I guess you can keep your macho attitude and teach your children that it's better to kill someone than to run away. Nice. I'll take the less liable and peaceful route of running away.
Good choice, Ken. Don't forget to tell them to leave their lunch money behind.
What do you teach them to do when there's no place left to run?

ETA: Almost forgot. Where are those quotes?

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Old 20th January 2013, 07:18 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Except, according to the FBI, rifles (not necessarily semi-automatic) account for <5% of all murders in the USA. I fail to see how they are such a big threat. Now, you have a better case with restricting handguns, since they account for ~20x that number.
Because, as I have stated repeatedly, there is no practical purpose for semi auto rifles in civilian life other than mass murder. If we can save one life we must.

Handguns - licensed, registered, secure storage, annual qualification and mental evaluation, valid reason to carry one outside the house.
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Old 20th January 2013, 07:27 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
False consolation fallacy. FWIW: I'm not anti-gun.
Thank you for addressing that silly argument so quickly.

Nor am I anti gun. My shot gun is is about 3 feet from me as I type this. Locked in its case with a trigger lock. I am in my house and have never felt safer. There are 2 dogs snoozing peacefully and a large kookery even closer. I look forward to my next skeet shooting outing.
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Old 20th January 2013, 07:31 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by Chuck Guiteau View Post
Good choice, Ken. Don't forget to tell them to leave their lunch money behind.
What do you teach them to do when there's no place left to run?

ETA: Almost forgot. Where are those quotes?
Discretion is the better part of valor.
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Old 20th January 2013, 08:06 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Because, as I have stated repeatedly, there is no practical purpose for semi auto rifles in civilian life other than mass murder. If we can save one life we must.
Hunting medium game for one. So, there's that. Then there's shooting sports. There's two.

SA rifles account for less than 1% of all gun violence, so let's go after them first.....makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Handguns - licensed, registered, secure storage, annual qualification and mental evaluation, valid reason to carry one outside the house.
I'm ok with just about all of that, minus the hilited.

What in your opinion constitutes a valid reason, and who gets to make that decision? Shouldn't I be allowed the ability to protect myself in my vehicle, or while I am out and about?
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Old 20th January 2013, 08:23 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Hunting medium game for one. So, there's that. Then there's shooting sports. There's two.

SA rifles account for less than 1% of all gun violence, so let's go after them first.....makes no sense.



I'm ok with just about all of that, minus the hilited.

What in your opinion constitutes a valid reason, and who gets to make that decision? Shouldn't I be allowed the ability to protect myself in my vehicle, or while I am out and about?
There are better options for hunting all game. Small medium and large. One of the goals of gun laws is to avoid mass shootings like sandy hook and semi auto rifles tend to be the weapon of choice. Given they serve no practical purpose, that isn't better filled by a different gun, just make them all bolt action.

Some thoughts on valid reason - restraining order, death threats, high profile job like federal judge, I am sure there are other reasons.

There are many non lethal means of self defense. Just having a gun doesn't make you safe.
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Old 20th January 2013, 09:22 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
There are better options for hunting all game. Small medium and large.
Sure. Does that mean I am required to use them? Nope. And better is subjective to opinion.

Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
One of the goals of gun laws is to avoid mass shootings like sandy hook and semi auto rifles tend to be the weapon of choice.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Given they serve no practical purpose, that isn't better filled by a different gun, just make them all bolt action.

Incorrect. There's a perfectly practical reason. Sport shooting is one. It's practical.

Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Some thoughts on valid reason - restraining order, death threats, high profile job like federal judge, I am sure there are other reasons.
How about American with no criminal background or mental health issues? Is that not valid enough for you? If not, perhaps you'll need to read up on Heller and McDonald

Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
There are many non lethal means of self defense. Just having a gun doesn't make you safe.
Sure, are they as effective? Nope. Not even close.

You're holding two different conflicting lines of logic.

You want me to give up on using and owning SA rifles, because they're not the best tool for hunting or sporting.

But yet, you want me to give up using the best tool for the job of self defense, to use one that is substandard.

You don't see the problem there?
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Old 20th January 2013, 10:31 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Sure. Does that mean I am required to use them? Nope. And better is subjective to opinion.
Not really firearms are tools not toys there designed and engineered for a job, I could use a hammer to put a screw in but that would just make me an idiot.
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Old 20th January 2013, 10:35 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Discretion is the better part of valor.
you need to arm your children so they can shoot any bully that tries to take their lunch money.
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Old 20th January 2013, 10:43 AM   #556
triforcharity
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Originally Posted by Bad vibe View Post
Not really firearms are tools not toys there designed and engineered for a job, I could use a hammer to put a screw in but that would just make me an idiot.
No, you're comparing using a 16 oz hammer, to a 24 oz hammer. Not a hammer and a pair of pliers.
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Old 20th January 2013, 10:49 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Because, as I have stated repeatedly, there is no practical purpose for semi auto rifles in civilian life other than mass murder. If we can save one life we must.
Ok, you do realise that semi automatic rifles are a blip on the radar in terms of violent crime, and "save one life" is NOT a good way to operate legislation. I could justify the PATRIOT Act on that basis.
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Old 20th January 2013, 11:05 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Why are you so interested in protecting the 2nd amendment when you should be interested in protecting the 1st?
What? In what way am I against the 1st amendment?

Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Because this is a thread about guns. If you want to talk about the dangers of alcohol, you are in the wrong thread.
So if I started a new thread on alcohol, it would get the same responses as in here?

Last edited by Light23; 20th January 2013 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 20th January 2013, 11:29 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Or run away.
Run where? Out the window and down 30 stories?
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Old 20th January 2013, 11:30 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I have read of the police being more frequently issued AR-15's for patrol, but as far as I know, the majority of them do not patrol with a rifle in the trunk.

Ranb
Maybe it's just where I'm from. Every road cop I know has one.
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