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Old 20th January 2013, 05:22 PM   #1
Molinaro
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NRA declared a terrorist organization

The NRA has been declared a terrorist organization by a reporter.

Seems reasonable based on the wording of the Patriot Act.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:25 PM   #2
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Shucks, I thought this was going to be about basketball.

Link available to subscribers only.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:26 PM   #3
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What a stupid, stupid article.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:28 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
Shucks, I thought this was going to be about basketball.

Link available to subscribers only.
Oh, didn't realize that. Here's the relevant bits:

Quote:
To be successful in prosecuting a crime under the Patriot Act, it must be shown that the NRA, one, intimidated or coerced the civilian population — which they have done, ceaselessly, for generations.

Two, that they have influenced the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion — which they have done, with armies of millionaire gun lobbyists threatening elected representatives with defeat and disgrace if they do not do the NRA’s bidding.

And, three, most crucially, we must show the NRA has attempted to affect the conduct of our government by “mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.”

We cannot state for a fact, Your Honour, that the NRA has actively engaged in assassinations or kidnappings. They have certainly attempted to kidnap and murder democracy.

We can state, however, that the NRA will be shown to have energetically advocated measures that are bound to lead to mass destruction, even in the wake of the killings of 20 innocents before Christmas in Newtown.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act ""dangerous to human life"" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.
So this is the NRA, really?

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Old 20th January 2013, 05:37 PM   #6
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Points one and two seem to be common knowledge. Point 3, not so much.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:40 PM   #7
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Good attention getter - he'll probably get a ton of hits on the website.

Other than that, it's not much.

I'd put it up there with Debbie Schlussel asserting that Jason Alexander is in bed w/ Hezbollah because he made a PSA for an org bringing together Palestinian and Israeli youth (true story, I heard her w/ my own ears)
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:40 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Molinaro View Post
Oh, didn't realize that. Here's the relevant bits:
Oh, this is just utterly, utterly stupid. As in, divided by zero stupid. I mean, this is a newspaper article, not a youtube comments section.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:46 PM   #9
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Yup. "Kidnap and murder democracy"? Give me a break.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:51 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Oh, this is just utterly, utterly stupid. As in, divided by zero stupid. I mean, this is a newspaper article, not a youtube comments section.
Well, it's an opinion column, not quite an article.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:52 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Yup. "Kidnap and murder democracy"? Give me a break.
Hey, its every bit as rational as the implication that Obama is a dictator, or that 'they' are coming for our guns...
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:56 PM   #12
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They only advocate to make available the tools that make it easier to kidnap and murder.
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Old 20th January 2013, 06:07 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
What a stupid, stupid article.
I realise you are American so here is some advice to avoid wasting your time read drivel. If it comes from a Canadian newspaper with the word "sun" in its name don't read it. If it is written by anyone named Warren Kinsella don't read it. Hope that helps.
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Old 20th January 2013, 06:14 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Fitter View Post
I realise you are American so here is some advice to avoid wasting your time read drivel. If it comes from a Canadian newspaper with the word "sun" in its name don't read it. If it is written by anyone named Warren Kinsella don't read it. Hope that helps.
Good advice, since the word "sun" implies that it is a tabloid (in terms of news quality, it is barely above youtube comments).
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Old 20th January 2013, 07:06 PM   #15
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This is admittedly silly. They are not terrorists. They are also not "gun advocates". They are more accurately described as a "gun manufacturers lobby" that uses fear and lies to gin up sales and intimidate legislators.
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Old 20th January 2013, 07:13 PM   #16
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I have never felt intimidated or thought I had been coerced by the NRA. I get spam e-mail from them occasionally, but usually delete without opening because I assume it's going to be conservative political propaganda and ads for conservation groups wanting donations.
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Old 20th January 2013, 07:57 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
I have never felt intimidated or thought I had been coerced by the NRA. I get spam e-mail from them occasionally, but usually delete without opening because I assume it's going to be conservative political propaganda and ads for conservation groups wanting donations.
I'm guessing you're not in Congress.
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Old 20th January 2013, 07:58 PM   #18
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I am absolutely pro gun control.

I am absolutely against the establishment of any NRA type organisation in New Zealand.

I hope we never go down the "right to bear arms" path the way you have in the USA.

....but even I think that is one of the most ridiculous articles on the NRA/Guns that have seen.
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Old 20th January 2013, 08:13 PM   #19
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This is just utter nonsense. The NRA, either a gun rights lobby, a shill for firearms manufacturers or something in between depending on your point of view uses the same lobbying techniques that all powerful lobbies do. If spending money to either promote or put down a particular candidate or applying political pressure on members of congress to ensure they vote in a particular manner makes them a terrorist organization then my friends, we have a really big problem because our nation's capitol is filled with terrorists and they are all but running the country.
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Old 20th January 2013, 08:15 PM   #20
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...........
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Old 20th January 2013, 08:27 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Yup. "Kidnap and murder democracy"? Give me a break.
Yeah, that's where I stopped reading.
Quote:
We cannot state for a fact, Your Honour, that the NRA has actively engaged in assassinations or kidnappings. They have certainly attempted to kidnap and murder democracy.
Actually it was stupid even before that. Just bald vague assertions.

Quote:
To be successful in prosecuting a crime under the Patriot Act, it must be shown that the NRA, one, intimidated or coerced the civilian population — which they have done, ceaselessly, for generations.

Two, that they have influenced the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion — which they have done, with armies of millionaire gun lobbyists threatening elected representatives with defeat and disgrace if they do not do the NRA’s bidding.
Threatening to not vote for a politician is "intimidation or coercion"? Gimme a break.
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Old 20th January 2013, 08:49 PM   #22
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I think the gun lobby position has similarities with previous political circle-jerks such as tobacco and automotive safety equipment / environmental impact, but is significantly different to these in regard to the second amendment. Tobacco and autos seem to be getting sorted out, slowly but surely.

I have a handgun by my bed for the same reason that I own lots of other tools; It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
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Old 20th January 2013, 11:51 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Molinaro View Post
The NRA has been declared a terrorist organization by a reporter.
And one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.
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Old 21st January 2013, 12:00 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
Shucks, I thought this was going to be about basketball.

Link available to subscribers only.
I thought I was the only one that read "The NBA declared a terrorist organization."

I thought some racist ******* started this thread.
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Old 21st January 2013, 02:44 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
And one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.
I disagree with that old chestnut.

A freedom fighter attacks only those who it perceives to be the enemy, and is usually careful not to involve people that it has no fight with. (the Maquis, the Andartes, the Yugoslav Partisans)

A terrorist is deliberately indiscriminate. They will will cause as much collateral damage as they can to as wide a group as they can. (the IRA, Al Qaeda, Bader Meinhof)
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Old 21st January 2013, 03:22 AM   #26
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I'm not sure the reporter knows the meanings of these words...

Intimidate: to make timid or fearful; to inspire or affect with fear; to deter, as by threats; to dishearten; to abash.

Coerce: to use force, threat, fraud, or intimidation in attempt to compel one to act against his will.


Quote:
To be successful in prosecuting a crime under the Patriot Act, it must be shown that the NRA, one, intimidated or coerced the civilian population — which they have done, ceaselessly, for generations.
Unless the general population of the USA live in fear of the NRA, this is false.

Quote:
Two, that they have influenced the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion — which they have done, with armies of millionaire gun lobbyists threatening elected representatives with defeat and disgrace if they do not do the NRA’s bidding.
Lobbying and political maneuvering does not fall into the category of intimidation and coercion. This is also false.

Quote:
And, three, most crucially, we must show the NRA has attempted to affect the conduct of our government by “mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.”

We cannot state for a fact, Your Honour, that the NRA has actively engaged in assassinations or kidnappings.
So by his own admission, the NRA does not meet the most crucial requirement to be deemed a terrorist organization.

Quote:
Their most recent advertising campaign, which offers up the president’s own children as rhetorical fodder, is ample evidence of the NRA’s willingness — like any terrorist organization — to terrorize children and parents to achieve its political goals.
Wait... advertising counts as terrorism now? So those graphic anti-smoking ads must be acts of terrorism too?

Quote:
We also take the view that at the time Thomas Jefferson and other founders ratified the Second Amendment, they did not intend it to be applied to the mass murder of six-year-olds using assault weapons.
This has to be one of the most ridiculous strawmen ever presented. Surely nobody believes the NRA are lobbying for the right to mass-murder children?

I'm no supporter of the NRA, but the entire article is absurd.

And a very poor argument for a lawyer/spin-doctor to make.
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Old 21st January 2013, 06:58 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So this is the NRA, really?

Ranb
No, but you're not far from it.

Time to grow up and put away the toys.
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Old 21st January 2013, 10:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm guessing you're not in Congress.
Quite right! I was speaking as an unimportant member of the general population.

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Old 21st January 2013, 10:18 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
I thought I was the only one that read "The NBA declared a terrorist organization."

I thought some racist ******* started this thread.
Personal unpleasant experiences with NBA players as clients was my motivation for that feeble attempt at humor.
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Old 21st January 2013, 10:27 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I hope we never go down the "right to bear arms" path the way you have in the USA.
Suggest you take a course in US history, and please read the preamble to the BIll of Rights, while you are at it. The path was built at about step zero.

Then, look up federalism.

Then, read the IX and X amendments and try to understand them.

And enjoy how things are in your land. I don't much care how you all handle firearms there, rule wise, so why is it that you choose to be such a busy body about how we do it?

It ain't your business, bud.
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Old 21st January 2013, 11:52 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Suggest you take a course in US history, and please read the preamble to the BIll of Rights, while you are at it. The path was built at about step zero.

Then, look up federalism.

Then, read the IX and X amendments and try to understand them.

And enjoy how things are in your land. I don't much care how you all handle firearms there, rule wise, so why is it that you choose to be such a busy body about how we do it?

It ain't your business, bud.
Alright, lemme have a crack at it. Since I am American, "not being your business" would be an incorrect statement towards me:

I am absolutely pro gun control.

I think there needs to be a reality check on any NRA type organisation in the US, and new rules instituted. (lobbying groups.)

I wish we never go down the "right to bear arms." Or rather, taken it to such an extreme.

....but even I think that is one of the most ridiculous articles on the NRA/Guns that have seen.
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Old 21st January 2013, 12:18 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Suggest you take a course in US history, and please read the preamble to the BIll of Rights, while you are at it. The path was built at about step zero.

Then, look up federalism.

Then, read the IX and X amendments and try to understand them.

And enjoy how things are in your land. I don't much care how you all handle firearms there, rule wise, so why is it that you choose to be such a busy body about how we do it?

It ain't your business, bud.
The USA can be a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there, so I don't really give a fat rat's arse what your constitution says.

Fact:
In the USA you can carry a concealed, registered handgun on your person if you have a permit to do so. Your constitution guarantees you that right.

In NZ, that is illegal. You cannot even be issued with such a permit. Not even a security guard or a private detective can do so. If you are caught carrying a concealed gun, it will be confiscated, your firearms licence will be revoked, and you will go to jail.

I am a citizen of the planet and I have a RIGHT to comment on anything I want to, especially on this forum, which is an international one; or are you suggesting that the members of this forum support the concept of the suppression of people who have a different mindset from you!!

On this forum, I will comment on what I like, when I like and how I like (within the constraints forum rules) and if you don't like what I have to say, tough biscuit, mate!! (I think that's in your First Amendment somewhere, IIRC)

If you you don't like "foreigners" commenting on your domestic affairs, ask JREF Admins to give the forum the ability to create threads that can't be read outside the USA. (Good luck with that one!)

And in any case, we have so many Americans coming to live in this country that I do wonder what it is that drives them out of their own. I certainly don't want them bringing their fanatical "gun culture" here!!!
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Old 21st January 2013, 12:23 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
Alright, lemme have a crack at it. Since I am American, "not being your business" would be an incorrect statement towards me:

I am absolutely pro gun control.

I think there needs to be a reality check on any NRA type organisation in the US, and new rules instituted. (lobbying groups.)

I wish we never go down the "right to bear arms." Or rather, taken it to such an extreme.

....but even I think that is one of the most ridiculous articles on the NRA/Guns that have seen.
Wow, not only do you go after the 2nd Amendment but the 1st as well.
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Old 21st January 2013, 12:53 PM   #34
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It takes quite the fascist to proclaim that anyone donating money against your cause is a terrorist...
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Old 21st January 2013, 01:47 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
It takes quite the fascist to proclaim that anyone donating money against your cause is a terrorist...
And even more of one to assume that a group of people with a common interest should not be able to organize and lobby the government for protection of their common interest...
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Old 21st January 2013, 02:08 PM   #36
Nihilianth
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The USA can be a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there, so I don't really give a fat rat's arse what your constitution says.

Fact:
In the USA you can carry a concealed, registered handgun on your person if you have a permit to do so. Your constitution guarantees you that right.

In NZ, that is illegal. You cannot even be issued with such a permit. Not even a security guard or a private detective can do so. If you are caught carrying a concealed gun, it will be confiscated, your firearms licence will be revoked, and you will go to jail.

I am a citizen of the planet and I have a RIGHT to comment on anything I want to, especially on this forum, which is an international one; or are you suggesting that the members of this forum support the concept of the suppression of people who have a different mindset from you!!

On this forum, I will comment on what I like, when I like and how I like (within the constraints forum rules) and if you don't like what I have to say, tough biscuit, mate!! (I think that's in your First Amendment somewhere, IIRC)

If you you don't like "foreigners" commenting on your domestic affairs, ask JREF Admins to give the forum the ability to create threads that can't be read outside the USA. (Good luck with that one!)

And in any case, we have so many Americans coming to live in this country that I do wonder what it is that drives them out of their own. I certainly don't want them bringing their fanatical "gun culture" here!!!
While I agree with the principal of your arguments, I take exception to your unfounded assertions about living in the USA.

You may not like the idea for yourself personally. That's fine. But to say that because a lot of Americans move to New Zealand, must mean the USA is a horrible place to live. You know that there are an awful lot of NZers that move to and live in the US, right? And from virtually all other countries on the planet? People move around. They migrate. It's what they do. There are push and pull factors, and moving from one place to another is not necessarily because of push factors. From what I hear and see, New Zealand is a lovely country.

And no, most Americans are not part of the fanatical "gun culture," either.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Wow, not only do you go after the 2nd Amendment but the 1st as well.
The first amendment? What do you mean? Oh! I know, the right to assemble and to petition the government!

Do note that I never stated they should be outright banned. I merely mentioned "new rules."

Last edited by Nihilianth; 21st January 2013 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 12:24 PM   #37
NoahFence
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
Quite right! I was speaking as an unimportant member of the general population.

I'm sure if you were in congress, you'd think different. They absoloutely indimidate - or try to - members of congress.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 12:32 PM   #38
Polaris
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I am absolutely pro gun control.

I am absolutely against the establishment of any NRA type organisation in New Zealand.

I hope we never go down the "right to bear arms" path the way you have in the USA.

....but even I think that is one of the most ridiculous articles on the NRA/Guns that have seen.
Now you know what it's like to have Alex Jones on your side.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 12:40 PM   #39
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Molinaro View Post
The NRA has been declared a terrorist organization by a reporter.

Seems reasonable based on the wording of the Patriot Act.
The stupid, it burns...
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Old 22nd January 2013, 02:09 PM   #40
theprestige
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The USA can be a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there, so I don't really give a fat rat's arse what your constitution says.

Fact:
In the USA you can carry a concealed, registered handgun on your person if you have a permit to do so. Your constitution guarantees you that right.

In NZ, that is illegal. You cannot even be issued with such a permit. Not even a security guard or a private detective can do so. If you are caught carrying a concealed gun, it will be confiscated, your firearms licence will be revoked, and you will go to jail.

I am a citizen of the planet and I have a RIGHT to comment on anything I want to, especially on this forum, which is an international one; or are you suggesting that the members of this forum support the concept of the suppression of people who have a different mindset from you!!

On this forum, I will comment on what I like, when I like and how I like (within the constraints forum rules) and if you don't like what I have to say, tough biscuit, mate!! (I think that's in your First Amendment somewhere, IIRC)

If you you don't like "foreigners" commenting on your domestic affairs, ask JREF Admins to give the forum the ability to create threads that can't be read outside the USA. (Good luck with that one!)

And in any case, we have so many Americans coming to live in this country that I do wonder what it is that drives them out of their own. I certainly don't want them bringing their fanatical "gun culture" here!!!
Nice rant, but totally irrelevant. Darth Rotor wasn't questioning your permission to post here. He was asking you why you choose to post here.
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