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Old 25th January 2013, 05:22 AM   #1
NWO Sentryman
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Oh FFS Europe!

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/

Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.
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Old 25th January 2013, 05:49 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/

Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.
It's not illegal to be a Nazi. From your link:

Quote:
The legal challenge, meanwhile, was opposed by Jean-Claude Mignon of France’s conservative European People’s Party (EPP,) one of the most dominant in the European Parliament, who said that the pair had been elected following what has been considered democratic elections. “It is not the job of the Assembly to tell the Hungarians or the Greeks ‘You voted correctly,’ or ‘You didn’t vote correctly,” he was quoted as saying.
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Old 25th January 2013, 06:06 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/

Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.
Well, if a US party denounced ***** minority group as sub-human would it be prohibited from taking office?
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Old 25th January 2013, 06:16 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/

Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.
Did you not read to the end of the article:

Quote:
.. Jean-Claude Mignon of France’s conservative European People’s Party (EPP,) .... “It is not the job of the Assembly to tell the Hungarians or the Greeks ‘You voted correctly,’ or ‘You didn’t vote correctly,” .....
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Old 25th January 2013, 06:39 AM   #5
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but why give seats to them in the first place?
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Old 25th January 2013, 06:41 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
but why give seats to them in the first place?
You're not making any sense.

What do you mean "Why give seats to them"?
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Old 25th January 2013, 06:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
but why give seats to them in the first place?
because it would be confusing if they had to stand there and all otheres sit.
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Old 25th January 2013, 07:00 AM   #8
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I know! Can you believe that people had the temerity to vote, in democratic elections, for someone with whom you disagree! You should do something about this, like, um, banning elections and installing your own dictatorship..
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Old 25th January 2013, 07:43 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
but why give seats to them in the first place?
The seats are Greece's. Do you think Greece shouldn't be allowed on the European Council? Greece fills the seats with members of the Greek parliament in a manner left up to them.
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Old 25th January 2013, 11:37 AM   #10
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What is outrageous here is not that the law permits this party to take seats, given the results of the election. The outrage is that this is what so many Greeks want. But I don't see any easy remedy for that fundamental problem. Simply prohibiting the party from taking seats isn't likely to work in the long run.

I will, however, leave you with a quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wolfe
Fascism is forever descending on America--but it always seems to land in Europe.
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Old 27th January 2013, 12:38 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The outrage is that this is what so many Greeks want.
It's sadly not unusual for what we in Sweden call "protest parties" to get loads of votes in times of economic hardship. I have a very local example:

In my home town of Gothenburg, a road-tax has been instituted, meaning that if you drive on any of the main roads, you have to pay a nominal fee. This has affected people living on the outskirts of the city much harder than those living in the town center, and several districts are now polling heavily towards Sverige Demokraterna - a formerly neo-Nazi party, all because people are pissed about the road-tax.
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Old 27th January 2013, 01:35 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's sadly not unusual for what we in Sweden call "protest parties" to get loads of votes in times of economic hardship.
Exactly. Golden Dawn started to gain popularity only when recession began to hit hard in Greece.

OTOH, one could ask why there are not nazis in the parliament of Ireland, Portugal or Spain?

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I have a very local example:

In my home town of Gothenburg, a road-tax has been instituted, meaning that if you drive on any of the main roads, you have to pay a nominal fee. This has affected people living on the outskirts of the city much harder than those living in the town center, and several districts are now polling heavily towards Sverige Demokraterna - a formerly neo-Nazi party, all because people are pissed about the road-tax.
Yep, that's how populism works.

I think there's something postmodern there too: it's not ideology (modern thing) but it's the choose-what-you-want-smörgåsboard that gains popularity. It's easy for such parties to gain popularity by representing themselves as opposing something minor but annoying - without representing their core ideology (e.g. fascim/nazism). So without displaying themselves as nazis they can represent themselves as "fighters for freedom" against a minor inconvience, a molehill which will be made into a rhetorical mountain.

Having a core ideology is modern, pick-and-choose is postmodern. Here in Finland our populist "we're not racists, but"-party does not and indeed cannot subscribe to any core ideology (modern thing). It represents itself as a smörgåsboard of ideologies from ultra-libertarism to socialism and from egalitarism to racism yet always denying it's any of these things when asked. Their party agenda is a litany of vague statements (some conflicting) which do not adhere to any single ideology, but is a collection of items representing various ideologies. Therefore I see it as a very postmodern party, though they are opposed of anything postmodern including postmodern art - in their vocabulary postmodern is a curse word, go figure.

Yet the inbuilt über-nationalism common for these parties is not post-modern, but some old-fashioned romantic irreal daydreaming about the way things actually never were.

Last edited by spin0; 27th January 2013 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 27th January 2013, 01:48 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What is outrageous here is not that the law permits this party to take seats, given the results of the election. The outrage is that this is what so many Greeks want. But I don't see any easy remedy for that fundamental problem. Simply prohibiting the party from taking seats isn't likely to work in the long run.

I will, however, leave you with a quote:
This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe.

But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments.
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Old 27th January 2013, 03:45 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe.

But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments.
I was thinking something pretty similar the other day when watching something on the anti-Gay rights protests in France. Europeans love to criticize the US, but can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments.
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Old 27th January 2013, 03:55 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe.

But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments.
It's not that strange. Liberalism is a center-right position in many European countries. After all, politics isn't a binary system.
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Old 27th January 2013, 04:02 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I was thinking something pretty similar the other day when watching something on the anti-Gay rights protests in France. Europeans love to criticize the US, but can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments.
can you explain that in more detail?
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Old 27th January 2013, 04:07 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe.

But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments.
Yes, Greece = entire Europe just like Alabama = the entire US.
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Old 27th January 2013, 04:09 PM   #18
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Oh FFS Europe!
Why am I being blamed for this?
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Old 27th January 2013, 04:49 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Why am I being blamed for this?
Or these guys?

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Old 27th January 2013, 05:19 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
Yes, Greece = entire Europe just like Alabama = the entire US.
Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus.

And oh yeah, a genocide attempt just 15 years ago.

Not confined to just Greece.

Last edited by WildCat; 27th January 2013 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 27th January 2013, 05:25 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by spin0 View Post
Exactly.... <snip>
Is there a prize for using the word "postmodern" eight times in one post?
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Old 27th January 2013, 05:28 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus.
Can I get you started on the US? Something like a four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years. Plus more than one state has effectively banned abortion. People, glass houses, etc.
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Old 27th January 2013, 05:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Can I get you started on the US? Something like a four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years. Plus more than one state has effectively banned abortion. People, glass houses, etc.
Abortion isn't actually banned anywhere in the US. And no neo-nazi parties have been elected anywhere.

No dictators, free speech remains intact, and no one in power talking about "ethnic cleansing".

eta: oh, and let's see you document this "four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years".
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Old 27th January 2013, 05:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Is there a prize for using the word "postmodern" eight times in one post?
Oh, you counted them. Well Cheers!
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:05 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I was thinking something pretty similar the other day when watching something on the anti-Gay rights protests in France. Europeans love to criticize the US, but can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments.
anti-Gay rights protests in France -> Europeans can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments

but but ... a protest is not a gummint.

Now I'm confused. Could you please elaborate.


Wanna see a related problem on a parliamentary level within EU?
Poland's lower house of parliament rejected three draft laws on civil partnerships on Friday.
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus.

And oh yeah, a genocide attempt just 15 years ago.

Not confined to just Greece.
Don't forget the BNP and that other right wing racist movements in the UK, Austria, etc. The funny thing is, these countries are like 90% white! A minuscule minority population has them so frazzled as to elect Nazis and have real hate groups with popular political support. Can you imagine if these countries were 1/3 black and hispanic, and shared a huge border with Mexico that allowed tens of millions of illegals in? Hitler would probably rise again.

Even at sporting events in Western Europe black players can't play a damn game without some Nazis in the stands using racial slurs and harassing them the whole game. Players are pelted with bananas, harassed, even to the point where they walk off the field.

Also don't forget that they still have Kings and Queens as heads of state and state churches/religions.

Last edited by Cinnamon Life; 27th January 2013 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus.

And oh yeah, a genocide attempt just 15 years ago.

Not confined to just Greece.
You seem to not understand they are individual countries. You know, like Guatemala isn't the US.
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:22 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
You seem to not understand they are individual countries. You know, like Guatemala isn't the US.
The claim made often on this board is that even liberal US pols would be considered far right in Europe.

I suppose you're going for a "no true European country" defense?
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:28 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
The claim made often on this board is that even liberal US pols would be considered far right in Europe.
[citation needed] * times multiple for "often"
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:36 PM   #30
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Some maps on popularity of far right parties in EU.

Germany (ex-eastern): http://www.spiegel.de/international/...68-449405.html

France: http://www.la-croix.com/var/bayard/s...e-fn_large.jpg

UK: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...np_uk_blog.gif


Generally popularity correlates with low-income.


Anyone have more related maps?
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:40 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/

Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.
Are you suggesting that people with political opinions you dislike should be banned from politics?
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:42 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Abortion isn't actually banned anywhere in the US.
Note I used the word "effectively". Which makes my statement true.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
eta: oh, and let's see you document this "four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years".
Oops, my bad. Good for your skepticism. I got the number right but the cause wrong:
Quote:
Since Mr Obama took office, the rate of threats against the president has increased 400 per cent from the 3,000 a year or so under President George W. Bush, according to Ronald Kessler, author of In the President's Secret Service.
Which is not to say there hasn't been a notable increase in hate groups:
Quote:
Fueled by belligerent tactics and publicity stunts, the number of hate groups operating in the United States rose from 762 in 2004 to 803 last year, capping an increase of fully 33% over the five years since 2000.
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:44 PM   #33
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politics is not a spectrum from left to right, its a spectrum in all possible directions. with different kinds of extreme groups.
neo nazis are not comparabl with the tea party for example. yet in europe we would put them both relatively closely on this nonsensical left right spectrum. but they are very different even if there might be some overlap. but neo nazis also have some overlap with leftwing (or better socialist) extreme positions.
its al much more complicated as it is debated here.

the US and Europe has its problems with extreme groups. In europe the political system is often much diffrent from the US with a sort of 2 party system. So in Europe, extreme groups have a higher chance to get political power even if they are not one of the 2 major parties.

Last edited by DC; 27th January 2013 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:48 PM   #34
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This just in:
Silvio Berlusconi praises Benito Mussolini for backing Hitler, says he ‘did good’ despite anti-Jewish racial laws

Oh Silvio. You're such a trollusconi. Just as charming as intelligent.

"Berlusconi also defended Mussolini for allying himself with Hitler, saying he likely reasoned that it would be better to be on the winning side."

Smart choice right there.

Last edited by spin0; 27th January 2013 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 27th January 2013, 09:17 PM   #35
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Wasn't Berlusconi making noises about running for PM again? If so, he can kiss that idea goodbye.
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Old 27th January 2013, 10:34 PM   #36
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Been there done that, remember in 1999 when Austria was formally sanctioned for electing Jörg Haider and the FPÖ?

Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Wasn't Berlusconi making noises about running for PM again? If so, he can kiss that idea goodbye.
Yes. And why? It's not like it's the first gaffe Berlusconi has ever made, yet people continue voting for him. Go look up the Videocracy documentary and you'll see why he's so popular with some people.

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Old 28th January 2013, 03:20 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
The claim made often on this board is that even liberal US pols would be considered far right in Europe.

I suppose you're going for a "no true European country" defense?
Not necessarily, but the mainstream political parties in most European countries are in favour of policies that would be considered very left wing by most U.S. voters.

I only know about the UK where the Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties are all to the left of the U.S. Democrat party. Individual Members of Parliament and some party activists may hold more right wing views but party policy is pretty centrist (for all we leftists try to portray them as right-wing monsters).
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:45 AM   #38
uke2se
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Not necessarily, but the mainstream political parties in most European countries are in favour of policies that would be considered very left wing by most U.S. voters.

I only know about the UK where the Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties are all to the left of the U.S. Democrat party. Individual Members of Parliament and some party activists may hold more right wing views but party policy is pretty centrist (for all we leftists try to portray them as right-wing monsters).
This. As I said, it's not hard to understand, unless your agenda is to paint Europe out as something it isn't.
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Old 28th January 2013, 06:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by spin0 View Post
"Berlusconi also defended Mussolini for allying himself with Hitler, saying he likely reasoned that it would be better to be on the winning side."
Wow! How much wrong could Silvio put into that comment?
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:02 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
The claim made often on this board is that even liberal US pols would be considered far right in Europe.

I suppose you're going for a "no true European country" defense?
I've certainly heard a lot of people say that both US parties would be on the right of the spectrum. It is sometimes said in Britain that the Republicans are like the Conservative Party and the Democrats are like the Conservative Party. But that wouldn't make either of the parties far right.

I've heard it said that some Americans have also called the Republicans, particularly the Tea Party, far right. I seem to recall George W. Bush being referred to as some kind of fascist dictator by a lot of Americans. Did this not happen?
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