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Old 26th February 2013, 03:18 PM   #521
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
If you already know there's no God, tsig, why ask further questions?

Cpl Ferro
It's because I don't believe in god which is why I want to know why a god would create humans.
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Old 26th February 2013, 03:19 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
I'm assuming you mean seeing what the apostles claimed they saw in the Bible, as if it was really happening and not just legends, because I don't think it actually happened that way.

But let's go with that and assume they were writing about what they witnessed at the time as honestly and accurately as possible.

If it's limited to "seeing," no, because that's how magic tricks work. The audience doesn't get to investigate the way they want; they can only see what the magician wants them to. Interview people after they leave a David Copperfield act, they'll tell you things they saw that were as miraculous as anything the apostles saw.

If you mean, would I believe if I were present at the time and place of the apostles, and given free reign to investigate using modern knowledge and calling in any modern experts or instruments I chose, I'd say it would depend on how things panned out. If events were happening that are unexplainable by our current understanding of natural laws, it doesn't mean every explanation somebody says about them is true. I'd say, let's first find evidence that somebody can actually walk on water, or that dead people are actually coming out of their graves, and then we'll worry about why such things are happening.

More importantly right now, though, it seems odd to me that you're worried about how open my mind is, when you've already stated that yours is sealed shut.

So please answer my question:

Do you feel having a hardened heart or a closed mind is good when you do it but bad when others do it, if they disagree with you?

Because this sounds to me like the usual situation of somebody who is convinced they can never be wrong. I've run into it in lots of fields, and not noticed any correlation between people being sure they're right, and actually being right, except maybe a slightly negative one.
Dear Pup,

An opened heart and mind to God is good when anyone does it.

Cpl Ferro
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Old 26th February 2013, 03:20 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
It's because I don't believe in god which is why I want to know why a god would create humans.
If you're inventing gods you don't believe in, RandFan, invent an answer.

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Old 26th February 2013, 03:21 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Nicholas of Cusa was a Christian mystic who lived during the 1400s. The Vision of God is known as a classic of Christian mysticism, putting many believers in touch with the divine.

Many Christians have a desire to experience God, rather than just believe in Him. Nicholas of Cusa provides an excellent guidebook for Christians who sense something deeper to the Christian experience. He was a mystic. He experienced God on a number of levels and taught people to move beyond mere belief and have similar experiences.


Any particular point you'd like to make?
On Cusa, tsig? No, but if you can help me understand his writing better I would appreciate it.

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Old 26th February 2013, 03:21 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear Pup,

An opened heart and mind to God is good when anyone does it.

Cpl Ferro
That doesn't appear to answer Pup's question, which is whether it's good for you to have a hardened heart or closed mind when dealing with views that disagree with your own. I would be interesting in knowing the answer to that question as well.
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Old 26th February 2013, 03:22 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by CplFerro
An opened heart and mind to God is good when anyone does it.
As Chesterton put it, the purpose of a mind is akin to that of a mouth: to open it in order to close it on something solid. Give us something solid--ANYTHING solid. At this point you have precisely two lines of reasoning for believing in God: the fact that you believe it, and the fact that you can't explain it.
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Old 26th February 2013, 03:23 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
If you're inventing gods you don't believe in, RandFan, invent an answer.

Cpl Ferro
You have no answers about the god you believe in?
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Old 26th February 2013, 03:26 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by Akri View Post
If they all fail at logic then none of them are beyond logic, they just all fail at logic.


Because "skepticism" doesn't mean "doubting everything to the point of absurdity".


I said theologians who are better than you.


Would you? Is me saying "I agree completely" a more fun discussion?

And I did read it with an open mind. What I didn't do is read it with an uncritical mind.
Like I said, Akri, you've hardened your heart.

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Old 26th February 2013, 03:27 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
If you already know there's no God, tsig, why ask further questions?

Cpl Ferro
Never stop questioning.

Seems as if the questions are starting to pinch so you are dodging.

Why do you think humans are so valuable that god had to die for them?
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Old 26th February 2013, 03:27 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
You have no answers about the god you believe in?
Dear RandFan,

I've already given enough answers for those who wish to peruse the thread. I don't need to recycle my replies indefinitely for people who won't believe them anyway.

Cpl Ferro
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Old 26th February 2013, 03:29 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Never stop questioning.

Seems as if the questions are starting to pinch so you are dodging.

Why do you think humans are so valuable that god had to die for them?
Are you saying you don't think human beings are valuable, tsig?

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Old 26th February 2013, 03:31 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Like I said, Akri, you've hardened your heart.

Cpl Ferro
If you don't want to address my comments then please have the decency to say so. If you think I'm lying about being open to logic and evidence, then have the decency to say so. Repeatedly claiming that I've hardened my heart is insulting and cowardly, not to mention incredibly hypocritical coming from someone who has outright sated that no evidence will change their beliefs. If you want to accuse someone of heart-hardening look in a mirror, and then consult your god's teachings on specks and planks.
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Old 26th February 2013, 04:26 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by Akri View Post
If you don't want to address my comments then please have the decency to say so. If you think I'm lying about being open to logic and evidence, then have the decency to say so. Repeatedly claiming that I've hardened my heart is insulting and cowardly, not to mention incredibly hypocritical coming from someone who has outright sated that no evidence will change their beliefs. If you want to accuse someone of heart-hardening look in a mirror, and then consult your god's teachings on specks and planks.
Dear Akri,

I didn't say you weren't open to logic and evidence, but, that, here, logic and evidence aren't the point. If they were the point, they would be everywhere. Something like Cusa is the point, but you're definitely not open to what he has to say, and that's hardly insulting to you or hypocritical of me to say so.

I never said, "hardening the heart is bad" I said, implicitly, hardening the heart to God is bad. So, don't try to beard me with the Gospel.

And, I overlooked your question, I'm sorry.

Quote:
Would you? Is me saying "I agree completely" a more fun discussion?
If you "got" Cusa's "On the Hidden God" I would wonder after what else of his you "got," as his hunt can be difficult to follow. And beyond that, there are others you might also have insight into, which have eluded me except in a circuitous way.

Cpl Ferro
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Old 26th February 2013, 04:51 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
I didn't say you weren't open to logic and evidence
No, but that's certainly what your posts have implied.

Quote:
but, that, here, logic and evidence aren't the point. If they were the point, they would be everywhere.
It doesn't matter if they're the "point" (point of what? Of this conversation? of God's existence?), what matters is that if your claims are true they should hold up to logical scrutiny and be supportable by evidence.

Quote:
Something like Cusa is the point, but you're definitely not open to what he has to say, and that's hardly insulting to you or hypocritical of me to say so.
This conversation might work better if you actually payed attention to what I say. I've already stated that I was open to what he has to say. What I'm not is uncritical. You're complaining that I didn't accept his statements for no reason (and despite having reasons not to accept them).

Quote:
I never said, "hardening the heart is bad" I said, implicitly, hardening the heart to God is bad.
Accusing me of hardening my heart at all is insulting because I've yet to demonstrate any such hardening. I am open to new ideas. I am open to the idea that I could be wrong about God's existence. Hell, I've tried to have a discussion about exactly what it would take to convince me that I'm wrong, but your immediate response was to accuse me of having a hardened heart. I gave Cusa's dialogue far more consideration than it deserves, and you responded by saying I didn't have an open mind.

My heart is not hardened, and my mind is not closed. If you're tempted to say either of those things again kindly save us both time and just don't.

Quote:
If you "got" Cusa's "On the Hidden God" I would wonder after what else of his you "got," as his hunt can be difficult to follow. And beyond that, there are others you might also have insight into, which have eluded me except in a circuitous way.
Fair enough--that could lead to interesting discussion.

That said, I think the reason I didn't "get" Cusa's dialogue is that there was nothing to get. It was, frankly, vapid.
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Old 26th February 2013, 06:06 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by Akri View Post
That said, I think the reason I didn't "get" Cusa's dialogue is that there was nothing to get. It was, frankly, vapid.
In which case what is there to talk about, Akri? God is a vapour.

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Old 26th February 2013, 08:05 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Never stop questioning.

Seems as if the questions are starting to pinch so you are dodging.

Why do you think humans are so valuable that god had to die for them?
Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Are you saying you don't think human beings are valuable, tsig?

Cpl Ferro
No, I'm asking you why you think humans are valuable to god.

If you don't want to answer please just say so your dodging is becoming way too obvious.
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Old 26th February 2013, 08:22 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
In which case what is there to talk about, Akri? God is a vapour.

Cpl Ferro
"Vapid" does not mean "vapor", it means "without substance". And I didn't say God was vapid, I said the dialogue written by Cusa was vapid.

And as far as what there is to talk about, well, I enjoy arguing. Cusa's arguments were low-hanging fruit, but whatever. I don't come to this thread expecting a challenge.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:42 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear RandFan,

I've already given enough answers for those who wish to peruse the thread. I don't need to recycle my replies indefinitely for people who won't believe them anyway.

Cpl Ferro
That's a disappointing cop-out. I'll take that as you don't know.
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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:53 AM   #539
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Dear RandFan, Akri, tsig, et al,

I apologise for being abrasive and evasive.

I also apologise to you, Akri, for judging your heart with relation to God.

Cpl Ferro

Last edited by CplFerro; 27th February 2013 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:59 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
No, I'm asking you why you think humans are valuable to god.
Quote:
It's because I don't believe in god which is why I want to know why a god would create humans.
Dear tsig, RandFan,

Your questions are similar so I answer them here.

Lyndon LaRouche discusses humans as "participating in God's work" by recreating the universe, introducing into play, as best I understand it, laws of physics and of the human mind which lie dormant. If I understood it better you'd have a better answer, but there you have it: man is in the image of God and creates new things--technologies, art--to transform and increase his power to exist in the hostile universe.

Cpl Ferro
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Old 27th February 2013, 10:19 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear tsig, RandFan,

Your questions are similar so I answer them here.

Lyndon LaRouche discusses humans as "participating in God's work" by recreating the universe, introducing into play, as best I understand it, laws of physics and of the human mind which lie dormant. If I understood it better you'd have a better answer, but there you have it: man is in the image of God and creates new things--technologies, art--to transform and increase his power to exist in the hostile universe.

Cpl Ferro
Thank you for the response. I appreciate it. It's problematic given an omniscient god but otherwise I'm fine with the answer.
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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 27th February 2013, 10:22 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear RandFan, Akri, tsig, et al,

I apologise for being abrasive and evasive.

I also apologise to you, Akri, for judging your heart with relation to God.

Cpl Ferro
Thank you for the apology. I appreciate it.
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:13 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear RandFan, Akri, tsig, et al,

I apologise for being abrasive and evasive.

I also apologise to you, Akri, for judging your heart with relation to God.

Cpl Ferro
Accepted, thanks.

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