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Old 27th February 2013, 11:27 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
He shouldn't have dated a crazy bitch like that in the first place. It's his fault.
Reported.




To the A+ Forum. You're in big trouble mister! I'd love to see you mansplain your way out of this. Remember, rape jokes are never funny.
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:28 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
She is suing the university.
Wrong. She has filed a complaint with the U.S. Department of Education.
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:28 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Is there any evidence at all that she reported a rape?

I'm stuck right there. I want to know who took a rape report and ignored it.
The university.

Quote:
It seems very hard to believe a police officer took a rape report and ignored it. Campus police are held to the same standards as all police.

It also seems very hard to believe that a university official received a rape report and ignored it.

It seems easier to believe that some student group disagreed with her story, but it seems hard to believe she would accept that.
Are you under the impression that the UNC Honor Court operates without the sanction or knowledge of university officials? Especially these officials?
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:30 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Is there any evidence at all that she reported a rape?

I'm stuck right there. I want to know who took a rape report and ignored it.

It seems very hard to believe a police officer took a rape report and ignored it. Campus police are held to the same standards as all police.

It also seems very hard to believe that a university official received a rape report and ignored it.

It seems easier to believe that some student group disagreed with her story, but it seems hard to believe she would accept that.
Very good questions, none have been answered.
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:33 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
The university.



Are you under the impression that the UNC Honor Court operates without the sanction or knowledge of university officials? Especially these officials?
The Honor Court could operate with whatever sanction, knowledge or authority that still does not stop this woman to going to the local, off-campus police. Wouldn't you, especially if you felt you were deprived justice and that a rapist was still on campus?
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:35 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Wrong. She has filed a complaint with the U.S. Department of Education.
Sorry about that. You are correct.
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:42 AM   #87
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Statement just released from the UNC Chancellor:

http://chapelboro.com/UNC-Issues-Sta...-Hono/15669314

Not a whole lot there. Explains the Honor Court and how it works. To me that's not very reassuring.
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:45 AM   #88
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So if a university official is the victim of a crime on campus, do they have to go to the Honor Court, or is that just for students and the grownups use the real stuff?
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:49 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
So if a university official is the victim of a crime on campus, do they have to go to the Honor Court, or is that just for students and the grownups use the real stuff?
This implies that it's for students only:
Quote:
Because of concern for our students and their privacy we cannot discuss specifics of this or any student Honor Court case
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:53 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
The university.



Are you under the impression that the UNC Honor Court operates without the sanction or knowledge of university officials? Especially these officials?
I'm under the impression that she did not report a rape.
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:56 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
They would be able to investigate and impose university discipline over a criminal incident though. They would usually suspend any discipline until an ongoing court case was over, but if there were no court case, they would still be able to investigate whether there was a breach of the university code of conduct. or am I wrong here?
If that is what happened then no issue, but this appears to be an attempt to by-pass the courts and try and deal with a rape as a disciplinary matter
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:58 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If that is what happened then no issue, but this appears to be an attempt to by-pass the courts and try and deal with a rape as a disciplinary matter
Well that really depends on details that we don't have on the case.
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:01 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Well that really depends on details that we don't have on the case.
Yeah, there does seem to be a lot of missing pieces. Hopefully in about a week or two some reporter will have investigated this whole thing and the story will be told completely.
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:02 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
...this appears to be an attempt to by-pass the courts and try and deal with a rape as a disciplinary matter.
Yes it does. There seems to be two issues here. One, how this particular university deals with accusations of crime. The second, why aren't the local police involved in this case? Is there a rapist still on campus?
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:25 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
They have no business whatsoever hearing criminal cases. They should have immediately reported the incident to real police and prosecutors, not some "honor court" made up of frat boys and such.
Agreed,
Surprised that Civilian universities have Honor Courts. I know that the service Academies (West Point, Annapolis, Colorado Springs) do but they pretty much handle things like cheating on a test and the worst they can do is recommend to the Commander that a Cadet be expelled. They allow the civil authrorites to handle serious criminal complaints against a Cadet.

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Old 27th February 2013, 12:34 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I'm under the impression that she did not report a rape.
Then how did the Honor Court hear about it?

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Agreed,
Surprised that Civilian universities have Honor Courts. I know that the service Academies (West Point, Annapolis, Colorado Springs) do but they pretty much handle things like cheating on a test and the worst they can do is recommend to the Commander that a Cadet be expelled. They allow the civil authrorites to handle serious criminal complaints against a Cadet.
Apparently, UNC is the only non-military-academy school that does this.
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:47 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Then how did the Honor Court hear about it?
Apparently, she reported that a boyfriend was stalking her. That resulted in the original honor court hearing.

At least, that's all I can figure out from the news reports.
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:49 PM   #98
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The concept of a student-run "Honor Court" or whatever a school might decide to call it, at least when it comes to dealing with academic violations or attempting to resolve petty arguments within the student community ("His music is too loud and the RA won't do anything about it!"), isn't a bad one. Permitting such an entity to address potential felonies is just stupid.
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:54 PM   #99
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Again, if the university failed horribly, then it failed horribly and should have to answer to that, morally and legally.

With that said, why isn't this woman going to the local off-campus police? If the university has a moral obligation to protect it's students doesn't this woman also have a moral obligation to at least warn others to a rapist on campus?
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:58 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Again, if the university failed horribly, then it failed horribly and should have to answer to that, morally and legally.

With that said, why isn't this woman going to the local off-campus police? If the university has a moral obligation to protect it's students doesn't this woman also have a moral obligation to at least warn others to a rapist on campus?
UNC police are real police, they are not security guards. Maybe the local off-campus police does not have jurisdiction.

ETA: http://www.dps.unc.edu/Police/policenav.cfm
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Old 27th February 2013, 01:10 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
UNC police are real police, they are not security guards. Maybe the local off-campus police does not have jurisdiction.
I agree that university police are real police, yes, they have all the same investigation and arrest rights as off-campus police do. In this case though this women is saying that she was deprived of justice by the university. Why not go to the off-campus police?

Isn't the ultimate goal here to stop a rapist who lives on campus? Does it matter which police force does it?
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Old 27th February 2013, 01:14 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
I agree that university police are real police, yes, they have all the same investigation and arrest rights as off-campus police do. In this case though this women is saying that she was deprived of justice by the university. Why not go to the off-campus police?

Isn't the ultimate goal here to stop a rapist who lives on campus? Does it matter which police force does it?
Yes it matters. If the off-campus police have no jurisdiction, what can they do? I would assume they would say "Go to the UNC police."
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Old 27th February 2013, 01:19 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I'm under the impression that she did not report a rape.
That point has been muddled. I picked up that she was complaining of sexual abuse and stalking from the articles cited in this thread. Whether the sexual abuse was rape is maybe a matter for a prosecutor to look into.

Although it does seem that she thought the university could get to a quicker resolution and protect her on campus more readily than the court system. It is not clear why she thought this and I'm not going to speculate.

The point is that after submitting to the honor court she found it anything but honorable and failing in many ways as outlined in the complaint to the DoE.
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Old 27th February 2013, 01:21 PM   #104
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Old 27th February 2013, 01:57 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
I agree that university police are real police, yes, they have all the same investigation and arrest rights as off-campus police do. In this case though this women is saying that she was deprived of justice by the university. Why not go to the off-campus police?

Isn't the ultimate goal here to stop a rapist who lives on campus? Does it matter which police force does it?
Only the campus police would have jurisdiction on campus.

An outside force would take the report and transfer it and her to the UNC police, or have her wait until a UNC police officer arrived to take her report.

This does however, get her some witnesses from the outside police force.
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Old 27th February 2013, 01:58 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That point has been muddled. I picked up that she was complaining of sexual abuse and stalking from the articles cited in this thread. Whether the sexual abuse was rape is maybe a matter for a prosecutor to look into.

Although it does seem that she thought the university could get to a quicker resolution and protect her on campus more readily than the court system. It is not clear why she thought this and I'm not going to speculate.

The point is that after submitting to the honor court she found it anything but honorable and failing in many ways as outlined in the complaint to the DoE.
Sure, but that's only one side of the story. It might well be accurate, but I can't tell.
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:40 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It seems very hard to believe a police officer took a rape report and ignored it. Campus police are held to the same standards as all police.
Can't really comment on the facts of this case, since there just isn't enough information available, but I wanted to provide a related perspective.

Having seen similar issues at one of the big universities here, it doesn't surprise me at all. Even while the campus police are a branch of the metropolitan police force, instead of a quasi-official force maintained by the uni, very often they operate under different rules, and have an "understanding" with the uni about handling of reports of various types of incidents.

There have been repeated flare-ups about the problems with date-rape, forcible-rape, and violent assaults committed in a part of town known as "Frat Row", which is where all the college fraternities reside, and is technically a part of the uni campus and under the jurisdiction of the campus cops, although separated from the main campus and adjacent to a residential district. Many reports are simply filed, and minimal action, if any, is taken. Campus police typically put such accusations down to "intoxication", and their investigations are cursory at best. The situation is even worse with assaults -- most commonly "gay bashing", attacks on minorities, and attacks on those appearing to belong to various subcultures -- since those assaulted are typically not university students, but simply passing through. The campus police rarely do anything to break the fraternities' "code of silence" and false alibis.

This situation will hit the local news media every so often, at which point there will be a visible crackdown that will result in small number of high-profile arrests and frats ticketed for violations of alcohol regulations; followed by denial by the university that there is any real problem, insisting it's exaggerated by the media/activists; followed by victim blaming and demonizing; followed by everything going back to the way it was before; followed by the cycle repeating itself again a few years later.

In the meantime, that part of town has been labels as "rape row" and "fag-bash row"; and women, GLBTs, and Goths/Punks/etc. are advised to avoid it after dark.
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:44 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Then how did the Honor Court hear about it?



Apparently, UNC is the only non-military-academy school that does this.
And the Military Academy Honor Courts would not try to take the place of the police in courts where actual criminal acts, as opposed to violations of the school regulations are involved....
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:25 PM   #109
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Chancellor Thorp's statement

Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Statement just released from the UNC Chancellor:

http://chapelboro.com/UNC-Issues-Sta...-Hono/15669314

Not a whole lot there. Explains the Honor Court and how it works. To me that's not very reassuring.
"Throughout a student’s involvement with the student-led Honor System, an accused student receives a number of procedural rights, including the presumption of innocence, the presentation of evidence, and a fair and impartial hearing. After the hearing, if a student is found guilty of the charge, sanctioning decisions are made by the Honor Court after a thorough consideration of all of the evidence." (highlighting mine)

This paragraph of Chancellor Thorp's statement looks misleading to me. It could be read to mean that students are still in charge of sexual assault cases, which is untrue IIUC. Also, it says nothing about the standard of proof being only the preponderance of evidence, not reasonable doubt. Finally, there appear to be restrictions on what evidence the accused can offer. KC Johnson wrote, "And the hearing panel had the right to obstruct an effective defense by restricting exculpatory evidence only to material that 'does not otherwise infringe the rights of other students.'"
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:39 PM   #110
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A Dear Colleague letter

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Agreed,
Surprised that Civilian universities have Honor Courts. I know that the service Academies (West Point, Annapolis, Colorado Springs) do but they pretty much handle things like cheating on a test and the worst they can do is recommend to the Commander that a Cadet be expelled. They allow the civil authrorites to handle serious criminal complaints against a Cadet.
From what I can gather universities were pressured by the administration to lower the standard of proof for sexual misconduct. They were sent a "Dear Colleague letter." Allie Grasgreen wrote, "The judicial process at Stanford University was already under review when the letter served as an impetus to ease its criminal standard of proof (which, like North Carolina’s, was 'beyond a reasonable doubt')." The system at Yale is no better in this regard. At Minding the Campus KC Johnson wrote, "Bowing to the OCR mandate, guilt occurs by a preponderance of evidence, and double jeopardy allows an accuser to appeal a not-guilty finding."

Cornell is similar (it does not allow the attorney for the accused to cross examine the accuser), although members of its law faculty raised objections. "Taking note of the enormity of an accusation of sexual assault, law professor Cynthia Bowman argued that fairness 'requires a rigorous standard of proof and many due process protections . . . Indeed, there is general agreement among faculty at the Law School that the procedures being proposed are Orwellian.' Law professor Kevin Clermont added, 'Not all would characterize the procedure as Orwellian; some have used instead the term Kafkaesque.'" My point is that although the UNC Chapel Hill system is unusual, the issue of preponderance of the evidence versus reasonable doubt is not unique to this one institution.
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Old 27th February 2013, 05:45 PM   #111
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I have problems with a Honor court engaging in criminal prosecution, period.
Sexual Misconduct should be handled by the legal authorities.T

Non criminal activites which might merit kicking a student out of the University should be the purvue of an Honor Court.

I think that for criminal cases it should be Beyond a Reasonable doubt, but for non criminal offenses Prepondrence of Evidence is fine,since the latter is baiscally a civil action.
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:25 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
That's why the school should have reported it instead of referring it to their pretend court.

I don't blame the girl for being unsure who to report it to, the school however should know better.
Especially on an intimidation charge, which has a high bar to begin with. A talk with state's attorney may have clarified what the criteria need to be met on intimidation, then she may have gathered friendly witnesses and other evidence. The SA may have also had a police investigator come talk to her and an arrest may have occured.

More likely an emergency OP.
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:39 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Agreed,
I know that the service Academies (West Point, Annapolis, Colorado Springs) they pretty much handle things like cheating on a test
In the British Army we had a saying - 'if you can't cheat, don't compete'.
There's always a sneaky way to achieve a goal...
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:12 PM   #114
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One thing that comes to mind is the whole "well, she should have KNOWN to do X instead of Y, she's 18!"

No. Being 18 does not automatically instill one with all of the knowledge and wisdom that being an adult should offer. Hell, most folks aren't even fully cooked until well into the early 20s.

Sure, the majority of us can be armchair "what-ifers", but I will risk the assumption that the majority of posters participating in this particular discussion are above the age of 25. Myself, I recently turned 29. Quite frankly, I was still (in my own opinion) an idiot until at least 21, and my parents raised me well with proper support.

I would not expect a young college student to be able to act in the most prudent manner, especially when confronted with a rather traumatic experience.

As such, any claims of "she should have known to go to the cops instead of the kangaroo court" are suspect (I realize that may sound strawman-y).
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Old 28th February 2013, 01:41 AM   #115
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Old 28th February 2013, 03:57 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
UNC police are real police, they are not security guards. Maybe the local off-campus police does not have jurisdiction.

ETA: http://www.dps.unc.edu/Police/policenav.cfm
The jurisdiction issue here is court, not police. Which police force does the investigation and reports to the court is not as important as the court which it reports to. Surely the police are not going to investigate a rape and then report to a University Honour Court?! They must report to a criminal court.

So how will this be investigated? By a bunch of students and not the police? I think it beggars belief that a student run amateur honour court is going to try and deal with the issues of a rape is totally and utterly wrong.

In the Scotland the prosecution service (COPFs) on hearing of an incident like this would just step in and say no to the University and the police would step in and investigate. Otherwise Uni officials would have to explain themselves to the High Court which has jurisdiction over rape cases as to why they thought they could deal with such a crime.
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Old 28th February 2013, 04:32 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Wait, a university has its own pretend court run by students? And it pretends to deal with actual criminal accusations? And has actual authority to kick people out of university? What the ****?
This. Many times.

The fact that this is allowed is amazing. Can it be done anywhere else?


"Oh no, officer, I know you heard a disturbance at my house, but I'm dealing with it under my own 'family court', we're all on our honour so it'll be fine. Nonono, she just fell over. Good day."
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Old 28th February 2013, 05:09 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
I agree that university police are real police, yes, they have all the same investigation and arrest rights as off-campus police do. In this case though this women is saying that she was deprived of justice by the university. Why not go to the off-campus police?

Isn't the ultimate goal here to stop a rapist who lives on campus? Does it matter which police force does it?
What rapist?

I think the ultimate gal here is to try to get at the truth. Your statement above sort of looks like you've tried the fellow already.
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Old 28th February 2013, 05:25 AM   #119
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I still don't think she reported a rape to the honor court, so I don't think the honor court was dealing with a rape case.

Despite what has been reported, I don't think the honor court would ever have handled a rape case at all.

Apparently, her case would not have been handled by the student honor court, but by a university hearings board, implemented during an interim period of major changes in policy.

Quote:
Sauls said the interim procedures temporarily brought UNC into compliance with the “Dear Colleague” letter, while allowing administrators time to rewrite the policy. The new policy was implemented Aug. 1.

From January to August, all cases were heard by a special University Hearings Board, a panel consisting of two Honor Court students, two faculty members and one administrative chair.
Some students whose cases were heard by that hearings board say their experiences were inappropriate — rich with insensitive questioning, unequal treatment and blatant violations of rights.
However, the media reporting on the issue is not very clear.

This article from December seems to indicate that the honor court case may not have been a rape case, but a stalking and harassment case. It's still not clear, though.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/...-up-on-assault
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Old 28th February 2013, 06:34 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
I would not expect a young college student to be able to act in the most prudent manner, especially when confronted with a rather traumatic experience.
At the time, yes. Why can't she report it now, today to the local police? She still has not gone to the police and it does not seem it's because she doesn't want to talk about the situation.
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