Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

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Haig said: "The comet density question has been answered ad nauseam on this and the first thread in answer to Dancing David and RC."

To save us hunting through hundreds of pages of link spam, care to summarise that for us?
Here's my summary; no, it hasn't been answered. The uber idiot Thornhill (or maybe one of the other scientific nobodies at EU) came up with an electrostatic repulsion idea. Doesn't work. Maths shows it not to work. I'll go through it if you like. So what else have they come up with? Sol88's variable gravity? 1 part in 10 000, I believe is the uncertainty in G. Might get you a few grams. Where's the rest gone?
And where's the water coming from?
Like I said, it's an ex hypotheseis. Wouldn't go voom if you put 10 000 volts through it. Assuming you could find 10 000 volts, which you can't.
 
Somehow you've ignored the negative charge of the comet.
The kinetic energy of solar wind protons is around 1 keV. So the absolute value of electrostatic potential of >1 kV at some given point in space would mean that the solar wind from this point would likely eventually end up on the surface.
Just as an example: if we suppose that the comet is a conducting sphere, then the charge of roughly 1 C would be enough (if I am not mistaken) to create the needed potential at the distance of 10000 km from the core. So you would have a surface of 3*108 km2 gathering protons, not some 12 km2. Here's your 7 orders of magnitude.

And how would the comet maintain that negative charge in interplanetary plasma? How long until it neutralised? As the abstract I linked in an earlier post mentions, there is no reason that the nucleus shouldn't occasionally take on the opposite charge.
My calcs were just an exercise in showing how stupid and unlikely this process was. I didn't even bother with the bit I just posted, as it should be obvious to anyone with even a modicum of knowledge in this particular area.
As an explanation for H2O and CO2 production, it is a non-starter.

ETA:
Consider asteroids. They are rock. Just as the EU fantasists insist this comet is. They experience the same solar wind. They are subject to exactly the same processes. Why aren't they throwing off masses of H2O and CO2, just as this comet is? And yes, I know Jewitt found one, or maybe two, that did show a slight emission among the thousands of asteroids out there, but for a very, very large percentage, they don't. How come?
You cannot accumulate a large charge in interplanetary plasma for any length of time. It will neutralise. Strange how asteroids manage to show a density equivalent to rock, as well, yet they have to invent some ridiculous mechanism to explain the low density of these cometary "rocks", don't you think?
 
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Haig said: "The comet density question has been answered ad nauseam on this and the first thread in answer to Dancing David and RC."

To save us hunting through hundreds of pages of link spam, care to summarise that for us?
Here's my summary; no, it hasn't been answered. The uber idiot Thornhill (or maybe one of the other scientific nobodies at EU) came up with an electrostatic repulsion idea. Doesn't work. Maths shows it not to work. I'll go through it if you like. So what else have they come up with? Sol88's variable gravity? 1 part in 10 000, I believe is the uncertainty in G. Might get you a few grams. Where's the rest gone?
And where's the water coming from?
Like I said, it's an ex hypotheseis. Wouldn't go voom if you put 10 000 volts through it. Assuming you could find 10 000 volts, which you can't.

I can guarantee, that Haig puts my name up in their mouth for no good reason.

They have never provided a coherent answer, what answer they have given has been refuted many times.

Which is why they won't give you a direct answer.
 
I can guarantee, that Haig puts my name up in their mouth for no good reason.

They have never provided a coherent answer, what answer they have given has been refuted many times.

Which is why they won't give you a direct answer.


Not true DD I've given you the EU / PC view on that many times.

Feel free to quote the answers here and others can judge what is coherent or not :p

One such answer was in a post of mine recently !!!!

On only just the previous page !!!! :p

Scroll back or .... just click here


Have a nice day :D
 
Not true DD I've given you the EU / PC view on that many times.

Feel free to quote the answers here and others can judge what is coherent or not :p

One such answer was in a post of mine recently !!!!

On only just the previous page !!!! :p

Scroll back or .... just click here


Have a nice day :D

So summarise it in WORDS. I'm not asking for maths, I know that is beyond EU acolytes. Just words. What is the cause? Repulsion? Want me to show why that is BS?
 
So summarise it in WORDS. I'm not asking for maths, I know that is beyond EU acolytes. Just words. What is the cause? Repulsion? Want me to show why that is BS?


OK, I'll try to give my understanding of the EU / PC view of Comets that I remember reading. :)

Comets approaching our variable star are charged bodies moving in the electric field of another larger charged body. As such the electromagnetic forces come into play and easily dominate gravity.

The charged comet causes a Langmuir Sheath to form around it with associated double layers. So the Coma and various tails grow along with the electrical stress.

Measuring density of such a body in such a field will produce errors IF the calculations used are "gravity only" in the assumption.

Think of measuring the density of a small electromagnet circling a much larger electromagnet by using the movement of the smaller IF it is highly elliptical (comets) and NOT simply circular or nearly circular. !

Most of today's physics, although developed, rely on relatively old ideas and formulas. The same goes for knowledge of plasma and electric currents as applied to astrophysics, and it was in fact several principles worked out by Kristian Birkeland and later Hannes Alfven that made much of the foundation for this.

Plasma Cosmology (or the Electric Universe) isn't refuting gravity as the dominating force in solid systems like our solar system. However, the bulk motion of an initial galactic dusty plasma is dominated by electromagnetism, and matter is later condensed into stars, where the orbital motion is preserved, whilst gravity takes over (briefly explained – see Anthony Peratt's papers).

Cometary Knots
The changing electrical stress on a comet is due to its highly elliptical orbit. The Sun has a weak radial electrical field. A comet spends most of its time far from the Sun and becomes adjusted to the voltage there. As it zips in for a quick fly-by of the sun, the voltage and charge density of the solar plasma changes rapidly, generating increasing electrical stress on the comet. When the electrical stress is high enough, the comet¹s plasma sheath lights up to form the classic cometary spectacle. The comet nucleus begins discharging and the resulting cathode jets sweep back to form a tail that is "blown" in a direction aligned with the Sun¹s electric field.

The same thing would happen to an object of any size on a cometary orbit through the Sun's electric field. If the Earth, which is a charged body, were on a cometary orbit, its magnetosphere would glow. Similarly, the objects forming the cometary knots of the Helix Nebula are responding to the strong electric field centered on the star outside the picture at bottom right.


Hence the errors in mainstream calculating the density of comets !

I'm sure not expecting you to agree with this just hope you can understand the thinking ;)
 
Just wanting to know how it is that the gravitational equations were good enough to put a probe launched months and miles away into orbit around a variabke.mass object in a variable mass environment?
 
Comets approaching our variable star are charged bodies moving in the electric field of another larger charged body. As such the electromagnetic forces come into play and easily dominate gravity.

How is it that this variable electromagnetic field created forces that are not variable and precisely match the behavior predicted for gravity?
 
It would be a very simple matter to calculate the required charge on the comet, along with the attendant electric field, necessary to screw up our calculations of its gravitational mass. Doing so would be an excellent test of EU comet theories.

But the EU folks won't ever do that calculation. Some of them simply cannot do the calculations, even though it's easy. Some of them don't want to do the calculations, because it might disprove their dogma, just like all the calculations testing their ideas do. And you can't challenge dogma.
 
Haig said:
Looks like you didn't read very closely, Haig. From your link above:

The volume of the model yields a mean density of 470 ± 45 kg/m3 when combined with the mass, 1.0 × 1013 kg, determined by the Radio Science Investigation (RSI) instrument​

That's a density of 0.47 Haig. Nowhere near that of rock. You and Sol asked for more data and there it is. Until you have a good explanation for this, discussing any other new data is useless. Pro tip: speculating that Newtonian gravity doesn't apply to comets is a fail, as are non-existent electrostatic effects.

Arm-waving and obfuscation in 3, 2, 1...

ferd


Looks like you ferd didn't read very closely this thread, the density issue has been addressed many times ...

Compare a comet nucleus with an asteroid an ignoring the difference in size you would be hard pressed to tell them apart ! Why is THAT ?





The [B]Electric Comet[/B] is a Charged Body and That leads to errors in calculated density as measured !

WHAT IF? Asking the Dangerous Questions with Tom Wilson

Hope that clears it up for you ferd ;) N.B. adding dark matter and/or dark energy as mainstream do with their math puzzles is NOT the sensible way :eek:
Here
 
It would be a very simple matter to calculate the required charge on the comet, along with the attendant electric field, necessary to screw up our calculations of its gravitational mass. Doing so would be an excellent test of EU comet theories.

But the EU folks won't ever do that calculation. Some of them simply cannot do the calculations, even though it's easy. Some of them don't want to do the calculations, because it might disprove their dogma, just like all the calculations testing their ideas do. And you can't challenge dogma.


Gezz Ziggurat are we going to have to do ALL the gravity anomalies and the GPS is proof of GR myth again ? :eek:

Is your memory going like JT ?

Fly-by anomalies

The Pioneer Anomaly: an inconvenient reality or NASA‟s 12 year misconception? PDF

The Voyager Anomaly and the GEM Theory




That's one of them DD :D

I remember THIS too ;)
 
Gezz Ziggurat are we going to have to do ALL the gravity anomalies and the GPS is proof of GR myth again ? :eek:

No, we don't. Even ignoring the explanations other than our theory of gravity being wrong (and there are other explanations, your ignorance of them being irrelevant), every single example you have given is for a very small anomaly. Even a small anomaly is important, from the standpoint of theoretical physics, but it's irrelevant here. The measured densities of comets aren't a tiny bit smaller than rock, they are WAY smaller than rock. If this is due to us being wrong about gravity, we shouldn't be carefully measuring the exact trajectory of Pioneer to determine variations, it should be way the hell off course, nowhere even in the neighborhood we expected.

tl:dr version - you are wrong about these anomalies, but the kicker is it doesn't even matter, they still can't rescue you from measured comet densities less than water.

Oh, and you still haven't answered me about why surface tension doesn't matter at large scales, or about how to determine composition from a black and white photo.
 
I'm tired of giving ALL the answers. How about you explaining these ? :p

Surface tension doesn't matter at large scales because the surface-to-volume ratio drops as objects get larger. That's why surface tension is irrelevant to, say, large ocean waves. The droplets seen in those EDM experiment form because of surface tension, because they are tiny and surface tension is important at those scales. Domes inside craters do not form because of surface tension, because those domes are large and surface tension is irrelevant. Note that we do not have to decide how craters are formed in order to know this. It is basic and obvious, but your link still got it wrong, and you didn't even notice.

Now, about those black and white photos: what is the material in each of those photos? How can you tell? This is your claim, so I can't answer this one for you.
 
So, Haig, your own words seem to say that your role here is that of a jester, that you are not serious in your posting; is that correct?

The copypasta mention also points to another self-described role, that of a spam troll. Pretty slick, I must say ... go all out to post links to your fave sites (while also assiduously avoiding any discussion of what you post), and use the cover of being just a numpty/jester to deflect attention from your core mission ... :D


Spot on, JeanTate. Standard dodges beside "i'm just a numpty" are "I'm not a scientist" and "Hey, it's not my claim". But notice in post #586 how he suddenly starts slinging scientific jargon as one who understands it would. Haig is quite the anomalous individual; an avowed non-scientist who's still somehow qualified to correct the erroros of professional astrophysicists.
 
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Haig, I don't know whether to laugh of cry ...

OK, I'll try to give my understanding of the EU / PC view of Comets that I remember reading. :)

Comets approaching our variable star are charged bodies moving in the electric field of another larger charged body. As such the electromagnetic forces come into play and easily dominate gravity.

The charged comet causes a Langmuir Sheath to form around it with associated double layers. So the Coma and various tails grow along with the electrical stress.

Measuring density of such a body in such a field will produce errors IF the calculations used are "gravity only" in the assumption.

Think of measuring the density of a small electromagnet circling a much larger electromagnet by using the movement of the smaller IF it is highly elliptical (comets) and NOT simply circular or nearly circular. !

Most of today's physics, although developed, rely on relatively old ideas and formulas. The same goes for knowledge of plasma and electric currents as applied to astrophysics, and it was in fact several principles worked out by Kristian Birkeland and later Hannes Alfven that made much of the foundation for this.

Plasma Cosmology (or the Electric Universe) isn't refuting gravity as the dominating force in solid systems like our solar system. However, the bulk motion of an initial galactic dusty plasma is dominated by electromagnetism, and matter is later condensed into stars, where the orbital motion is preserved, whilst gravity takes over (briefly explained – see Anthony Peratt's papers).

Cometary Knots



Hence the errors in mainstream calculating the density of comets !

I'm sure not expecting you to agree with this just hope you can understand the thinking ;)

How did it come to pass that the apparent hatred "the EU" core team has of science neutered your critical thinking skills?

Let's take an example that is several hundred years' old; the moons of Jupiter.

Galileo is the first to have reported seeing them, over 400 years' ago now. With even his really simple - and not very good, optically - telescope it is possible to make an estimate of the size - in arcseconds - of the size of Jupiter, and observe the motions of the four main moons. These are *quantitative* facts and data; you yourself can observe Jupiter and its four main moons, using very modest equipment that you can buy for merely a few hundred dollars (or make for yourself). And, with today's free apps etc, compile a pretty good dataset.

You can use this dataset to confirm that Kepler's laws of planetary motion are a good fit to your dataset. If you are patient enough, you can do a modern day version of Ole Rømer's measurement of the speed of light. With a small amount of high school mathematics (helped by the cornucopia of free apps) you yourself can confirm just how good a fit Kepler's laws are to much bigger datasets, of the positions of hundreds of solar system objects (including comets).

Best part of this? Two things: Kepler's laws are purely empirical/descriptive, and you need take no one's word for any of it, because you can do all of it yourself (even checking the veracity of math apps, if you so wish).

What would you learn?

Among other things: the estimated density of solar system objects - ones with more than one other in orbit around them (Sun, with planets; planets, with moons; etc) - is the same, no matter which 'in orbit' object you choose to use for the density estimate.

Also: by using Kepler's laws, you are not using any theory of gravity, plasma physics, or invisible pink unicorns pushing things around. True, it's not hard to show that Newton's universal law of gravitation produces Kepler's laws, but your work is independent of any such theory (for all you know, Birkeland had some proto-plasma law, from which you can derive Kepler's laws). In short, you are, to use DT's words, working entirely with DIRECT EVIDENCE.

Take away: density estimates, produced using Kepler's laws and DIRECT EVIDENCE, can be shown to be very consistent, for solar system objects big and small, on nearly circular orbits or highly elliptical ones, etc.

(Important note: I've - deliberately - left some important parts out, and some of those are critical; what do you think some of them are?)

Now to a point Tom Bridgman apparently never tires of making, what can you actually do? All the wonders of Newton's theory, General Relativity, plasma physics, etc may be interesting, but can you design a space probe, pack it with sensitive instruments, blast it into space, and have it arrive at 67P safely? Clearly the Rosetta mission team did just that.

Say whatever you like about the theories of gravity they used (or didn't use), the theories of plasma physics they used (or didn't use), you cannot gainsay the result.

Yet, based on what wrote - in the post of yours I'm quoting - that result is a miracle! :eek:

How did it come to pass that your reading of "the EU" led you to believe in miracles?

Expressed another way: why is "the EU" so sterile?

To close, why not take up Tom Bridgman's challenge? In Electric Comets III: Mass vs. Charge.
 
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