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29th October 2015, 02:30 AM | #441 |
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I know this is just your idea, or speculation or whatever, but humour me: which part of the human brain do you think acts as a receiver or lens?
So far, these have included a cool film you saw, and Alice in Wonderland. It baffles me that you think that these are better or more insightful than the totality of scientific research into consciousness, the human brain, and other dimensions. And no, this isn't really challenging your own assumptions. You are still convinced that you had an extraordinary visitation by some kind of entity whose existence would overturn decades of research and evidence, rather than just a dream.Why are you so opposed to this idea? Do you have so much invested in your position that you are unable to even consider you may be wrong? Everyone gets it wrong sometimes- it's no big deal. If you've studied spirituality, as you say you have, you should remember that there is no ego to offend. Just leave it and move on. |
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29th October 2015, 07:30 AM | #442 |
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We know that bodies can be animate without consciousness, so what are you suggesting consciousness consists of in this idea? what is it's function? what does it do that the brain cannot do without this consciousness 'expressing itself'? what does 'expressing itself' consist of?
p.s. The brain is not a receiver. |
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29th October 2015, 07:40 AM | #443 |
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Ah, that was a great article. The light fairy.
Jodie, did you read it? |
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29th October 2015, 08:29 AM | #444 |
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If the effects are fully explained by the chemical process, then there's no need to go looking for other causes, no matter how neat those causes might seem. Science is all about not multiplying causes without good reason. That's not to say we shouldn't imagine systems that might be more complex than what we see here and now. But we shouldn't confuse that imagination with the present need to explain and predict the natural world. When the time comes that effects are no longer explained by processes we know about, then we can look to imagination to provide hypotheses for us to test in search of more complex models.
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Your evolving explanation still sounds very much like you really want to believe in multidimensional communication, that your experience was a manifestation of that, and that an explanation will be forthcoming by embracing the foggy fringes of metaphysics. Again, you can believe what you want. But you can't credibly call it science unless you adhere to the scientific method. |
29th October 2015, 11:08 AM | #445 |
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Glad to hear you enjoy them, and it is entirely possible I am wrong, but I am not ready to discard the hypothesis yet.
For starters, I don't completely buy that you have not been emotional or upset. You react as if being personally attacked. Moreover, you repeatedly accuse those who question you of being upset or offended. It's a projection sort of thing that I'm seeing.
Originally Posted by Jodie
Originally Posted by Jodie
Originally Posted by Jodie
Originally Posted by Jodie
Originally Posted by Jodie
Originally Posted by Jodie
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29th October 2015, 12:39 PM | #446 |
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Indeed, the UFO community relies upon this principle. "He must be telling the truth. Why would anyone make up a story that means they get ridiculed?" And the answer, according to Oscar Wilde, is that the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. Quite a number of people would rather be taunted, criticized, and laughed at just as long as they aren't ignored.
Over the years I've noticed that fringe claimants sometimes need some satisfaction regarding their critics, either to pretend to have bested them in debate, or to come to some comforting postulate about why the critics have "inappropriately" rejected the claim. This often leads to the kind of performance art we see in a number of ISF threads. Regardless of why we believe something, we (humans) want to frame our beliefs in the appearance of fact, reason, and science. It's ironic that sometimes we do this precisely by rejecting as "closed-minded" or "biased" the very facts, reason, and science that we presume to court.
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29th October 2015, 03:16 PM | #447 |
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You'ld first have to establish that there was something to catch before you could try to define what part of the brain or process made it a type of receiver.
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29th October 2015, 03:22 PM | #448 |
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This is the lack of understanding bit. First, MRIs and CT scans can't look for other dimensions. Second, and more important, no one has looked for leprechauns in other dimensions, either. This likely sounds flippant, but it's not. Third, and still more important, the nature of consciousness has been explored for quite a long time, and everything points to it being dependent upon the material and processes of the brain that we experience here and now without regard for other dimensions.
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29th October 2015, 03:45 PM | #449 |
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29th October 2015, 03:47 PM | #450 |
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Depends on what you call animation. A functioning body without consciousness is just a body. Example- a partial mole as a result of a molar pregnancy. It contains DNA, teeth or other developed body structures, even brain cells but no one would consider it to be a conscious living being.
Those in a vegetative state or partial vegetative state have brain damage. That brain damage prevents the person from experiencing reality as we do, but it doesn't mean they lack consciousness on some level, their lens is just broken. To me, expressing consciousness means that you have the capability of using the brain as a tool to develop the necessary skills to survive and interact in this world. If consciousness exists in these other dimensions then it would require a structure or means to process information from that dimension, not necessarily a physical brain. Since we only have research that indicates that these other dimensions exist, it would be a far stretch for me to try to guess how disembodied consciousness would work in these areas. |
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29th October 2015, 03:53 PM | #451 |
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Frogs send consciousness to all brains via unknown ribbits. The bullfrog bodhi is the source of all thoughts.
Jodie will ignore this. |
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29th October 2015, 04:04 PM | #452 |
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I'm making specific assertions of belief knowing full well that there is no research that will back up my ideas, not now, and certainly not in the near future. Some have very kindly explained why they don't agree, others have insisted I'm mistaken. My point is that lack of evidence for a concept is not synonymous with being mistaken, in this case, it's simply an untested concept.
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29th October 2015, 04:08 PM | #453 |
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29th October 2015, 04:09 PM | #454 |
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In a general sense you are correct, but you have expanded the concept to the point of uselessness. That's why I mentioned leprechauns earlier and frogs and have rabbits have been mentioned more recently.
Aimed at Jodie, not JayUtah. |
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29th October 2015, 04:17 PM | #455 |
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I'm only rejecting your approach, other than insults, nothing you've offered has been a positive contribution until the last couple of questions. I'm being sarcastic here, but in what world do you live in where it is appropriate to tell someone to GTFO a forum no matter what the reason? That does demonstrate that something about my idea required a visceral reaction from you, which would be your issue.
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29th October 2015, 04:22 PM | #456 |
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29th October 2015, 04:22 PM | #457 |
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No, and this lends credence to the idea that it is attention-seeking on your part. I'm not quite there yet, but I haven't dismissed it yet.
It is difficult to believe that you cannot imagine that the GTFO is, as I said and JayUtah confirmed, simply a combination of his style and his frustration. That frustration does not even need to be at you specifically but at the type of posters you sometimes typify -- those who post wild claims, dismiss counter arguments without reading and/or understanding them, and blame the miscommunication on the skeptics. You are either gaming for attention or humor, or you need to step back and observe your behavior objectively. |
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29th October 2015, 04:29 PM | #458 |
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Not even really frustration, except in the sense that debate is often just inherently frustrating. "Visceral reaction" is Jodie's characterization, not mine or yours. It suggests a need to paint me as some kind of emotional loose cannon that she can safely ignore.
The figure of speech means "Unless you have evidence, it doesn't matter what else you have." No more, no less. |
29th October 2015, 04:33 PM | #459 |
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Understood and agreed. My point being that Jodie's insistence on the only explanation being that she has gotten to you, if sincere, is evidence of the attention-seeking hypothesis and, if feigned, is evidence of the gaming hypothesis. There may be something else, but I don't see it.
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29th October 2015, 04:58 PM | #460 |
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Quantum physics and mechanical physics are diametrically opposed theories but when you interject the mathematics for dimensional space, they work together. So far that theory remains unproven.
http://www.wired.com/2014/08/multiverse/
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http://www.technologyreview.com/news...-be-conscious/
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29th October 2015, 05:05 PM | #461 |
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29th October 2015, 05:08 PM | #462 |
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29th October 2015, 05:10 PM | #463 |
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29th October 2015, 05:11 PM | #464 |
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Others will deal with the science stuff; I haven't the time right now except to say that quantum physics and mechanical physics (by which I take it you mean Newtonian) are not, as you say, diametrically opposed. That's not to say they are reconciled, but diametrically opposed they are not.
On the prophetic nature of the dream, there are several possible explanations, none of which can be applied without a verification of what you actually dreamt followed by a verification of what actually happened. You would do better to lay out both of those specifically and then tell us how you ruled out the other normal explanations. I'm sure you know what at least most of them are. This is what, my fourth post on the topic? That's really going at it, yes, of course. I go back to my original (recently) post about you floundering. This is more of it. |
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29th October 2015, 05:14 PM | #465 |
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Sure, but then why invoke it? Artificial intelligence doesn't have anything to do with any other part of your claim. It conveys the impression that you're just scrambling for whatever seems tangentially relevant, without really understanding what you're looking at.
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29th October 2015, 06:40 PM | #466 |
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No. You brought it up again out of the blue in post 437 after I had already clarified myself and the subject had been dropped for quite some time. Garrette was responding to your resurrection of it. Unless you plan to continue your martyrdom, I suggest you stop being artificially butthurt by an offhand comment and address the substance of the debate.
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30th October 2015, 01:27 AM | #467 |
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Jodie has rung gamer alarms in other threads (bigfoot, iirc).
She never changes her approach and it just unspools an endless litany: It seems like a genuine interest and proximity to "Aha!", but it won't arrive. There's always a twist, a reset, an ignore, an act. See also Jabba. Posters like these have succeeded in their goal: they drive people away. I am rarely here now. |
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30th October 2015, 02:25 AM | #468 |
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Jabba is one of those I had in mind when I wrote the post about people not having been challenged before. There are others, but they rarely stick around as long. Jabba, I think, hasn't been challenged because until recently he stayed in friendly territory and because his family mostly nodded their heads at "Gramps' eccentricities."
Jodie, I think, is a bit more interesting in that I think she really hasn't been challenged on stuff like her dream and consciousness beliefs and that she also games. The balance of the two changes between topics, but both appear to be there. It would be simply amusing were it not for the frequent interjections of true nastiness such as the business with The Shrike, the truth of which is obvious yet regarding which she continues to claim he was in the wrong. |
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30th October 2015, 02:34 AM | #469 |
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No, I wouldn't. It's your claim, you the burden of proof lies on you.
No, at least not the way I read it. You posited your theory of multidimensional consciousness before you admitted it was based on a film. This is what you said about Alice in Wonderland:
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Did you read dlorde's linked article? This is what looking for evidence is actually about: examining all sides of any discussion. Alas, given what you say next, you probably haven't read it and, even if you had, it wouldn't have made any difference: Even with what follows in that sentence, which I have snipped for clarity, that pretty much sums up your attitude, and is very much in line with what other posters have been saying to you. You have a predetermined conclusion, and nothing will shake it. That's fine, but, as JayUtah said, don't pretend this is science. If you want to go down that path, you will have to answer another point I made, that you seem to have carefully sidestepped: If what you claim is true, it would mean upturning every advance on scientific endeavour in this field. How could such a revelation be possible? |
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30th October 2015, 07:37 PM | #470 |
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Rude behavior indicates that there is some kind of passion behind it, there might be multiple motives for why someone would do that. Historically, I'm not bothered by someone disagreeing with me but there is no excuse for being hateful about it. However, I have no problem returning the favor if provoked. I usually only experience that in the bigfoot threads. The take home lesson from that is to spend more time enjoying the rest of the forum.
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Cool. Seriously.
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30th October 2015, 07:55 PM | #471 |
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Flatly saying something isn't possible isn't productive if you can't elaborate on why, that's what I'm looking for. There is nothing about what I'm saying that can be proven and it would be unrealistic of you to expect that. The demand to prove that I'm right is a means to derail the discussion.
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30th October 2015, 07:59 PM | #472 |
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I've only had one thing happen and it didn't tie into any of the popular poltergeist theories. Since it only happened once and I can't explain it the event goes into "I don't know" file, not the "Ghosts are real" file (currently empty).
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Some of those scientists are searching for dimensional data from this work, and it will be a long time before they can even postulate a coherent thesis (I could be wrong, some guy might pop up next week with a paper that I can't read). That's where the science is. More importantly, if I was to lodge a thesis about ghosts it would center around very physical processes of this world, including the brain. |
30th October 2015, 08:06 PM | #473 |
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Cite the post where I have done that.
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30th October 2015, 08:06 PM | #474 |
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As I said, it's speculation, demanding proof is a means of derailing the conversation.
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30th October 2015, 08:19 PM | #475 |
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But let one of us say that and you remind us your claim is "based on science." What are your critics to do if you can't even make up your mind yourself whether your claim should be evaluated scientifically?
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30th October 2015, 08:20 PM | #476 |
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30th October 2015, 08:33 PM | #477 |
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Based on your questions, I'm not sure how much you've read to judge whether AI research is applicable to consciousness research. It is depending on what kind of functions you want your AI to accomplish.
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30th October 2015, 08:37 PM | #478 |
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I have a degree in computer science, and I also used to teach it at the University of Utah. I build and use thousand-CPU computer systems to do a variety of science and engineering tasks, many of which would be classified as artificial intelligence.
What are your qualifications in that area?
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30th October 2015, 08:38 PM | #479 |
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31st October 2015, 01:12 AM | #480 |
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