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15th November 2015, 05:05 PM | #641 |
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Irrelevant. You spackle everything with the goo of your multidimensional consciousness hypyothesis so splitting hairs here doesn't really help you.
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But then a careful examination of your sources showed that not only did they fail to support your belief, in many cases they actually refuted it. Some discussion was had on that point culminating in your admission that you couldn't profess any actual expertise in those sciences, whereupon you made one further inconsequential post and dropped the debate. If your own sources suggest that your belief is impossible, then you either have to abandon the sources or accept the verdict. You forget that in weighing the evidence, that evidence might unexpectedly wind up on the wrong side of the scale. If you abandon one argument and its sources, nothing prevents you from making an argument de novo, according to whatever new evidence or logic you can muster. You haven't done that. Therefore your hypothesis remains unsubstantiated. Your critics are simply responding to your arguments. By one argument your beliefs are impossible. By another (non-)argument, your beliefs have no demonstrable basis. Don't conflate the two lines of reasoning and their conclusions.
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15th November 2015, 05:08 PM | #642 |
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Not so much, the actual matter is that you haven't presented anything in support of your claim to test.
Since it concerns your belief, your claim, the burden of proof rests squarely on your shoulders. You know you can not meet that burden of proof and in addition to that, you have nothing to test. You proselytize empty handed. |
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15th November 2015, 05:28 PM | #643 |
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Shifting the burden of proof. Should every unfalsifiable claim be shoved down someone's throat?
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15th November 2015, 06:43 PM | #644 |
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Go ahead and prove it right. Then you might have a point.
The answer is nothing beyond wishful thinking. If you wish to make the affirmative claim, then it is your burden of proof. as things stand, there is no evidence at all for the survival post mortem of anything. Seems? God of the very small and shrinking gaps. "How they are integrated into our reality" it is to laugh. They are part of our reality and always have been if they do in fact exist. |
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15th November 2015, 07:57 PM | #645 |
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Pretending? I pretend nothing, I believe that we live on after death. I might be wrong in how that's accomplished but I'm not giving up my belief simply because a few forum members think it's irrational. IMO I think the rational skeptic's approach is stupid when there is no concrete evidence to refute the possibility.
What chaos? No one forces you to respond to me. It is your responsibility regarding what you decide to respond to and post. If you can't have a speculative discussion because the topic makes you uncomfortable then that one is on you. |
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15th November 2015, 08:03 PM | #646 |
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15th November 2015, 08:09 PM | #647 |
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They're explaining why it's irrational. You can't answer except to promise to hold steadfastly to the faith regardless.
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What sort of "speculative discussion" did you envision? You told us in the ghost-story thread that you come here to present your claims because you explicitly don't want just some echo chamber. That implies you anticipate some resistance, dissent, and dispute from the posters here. Yet when that expected resistance appears, we get this same unproductive song and dance from you. If you want a forum free from dissent, go find an echo chamber. If you're going to proselytize to skeptics, expect exactly this sort of a response. |
15th November 2015, 08:36 PM | #648 |
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I wonder if this makes you uncomfortable. I am 100,000 years old, and have have stalked you through 40 of your previous lives during this period.
This is a speculative discussion, and I am right, and you are right as well about permanent life. Why don't you remember these previous experiences? Or do you? We are all one! Norm |
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16th November 2015, 12:53 AM | #649 |
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Absent any evidence, that is called faith. Similar to my kids who pretend to have faith in Santa, even though they are old enough to know that Santa is not real. We all pretend he is just for the joy of it.
You are wrong thinking it exists. Not a few and it is irrational. Do you have concrete evidence to SUPPORT the possibility? Of course not. Nor you. Where does that leave us? Speculative discussions are fine. Speculation presented as fact is something very different. |
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16th November 2015, 02:48 AM | #650 |
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16th November 2015, 07:12 AM | #651 |
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Jodie was Jabba in a former life! You can tell by her karma!
We are all numb. |
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16th November 2015, 08:33 AM | #652 |
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17th November 2015, 05:49 PM | #653 |
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The lack of oxygen-theory of the brain is also not satisfying at all. Because some people with hyperoxygenation symptoms also had near death experiences. So, the socalled 'scientific' explanations fail.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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17th November 2015, 06:04 PM | #654 |
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17th November 2015, 06:28 PM | #655 |
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The lifereview for example is rather then being a review, it is more like a reliving of the life of the experiencer but from a much greater point of consciousness and the life of any oter human being that he or she has ever effected in any way through any of her of his actions when he or she was existing in this physical world.
How can such a rich and enhanced awareness and meaningful experience be 'just the result of a dying brain'? Such a socalled scientific explanation is not convincing at all for many intelligent people. |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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17th November 2015, 06:32 PM | #656 |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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17th November 2015, 06:36 PM | #657 |
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17th November 2015, 06:39 PM | #658 |
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17th November 2015, 06:40 PM | #659 |
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17th November 2015, 06:46 PM | #660 |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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17th November 2015, 06:53 PM | #661 |
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I told you this before: anything about the inner experience of a soul (human or animal) can't be proven. That's an inherent characteristic of nature. To ask for proof of the experience of an NDE is asking for something totally impossible. Science can't go behind this boarder. Scientists are very limited when they want to have proof for consciousness.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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17th November 2015, 07:00 PM | #662 |
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That's right, you can make no judgement regarding credibility.
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17th November 2015, 07:01 PM | #663 |
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"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
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17th November 2015, 07:13 PM | #664 |
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Yes, but I'm not asking you to believe, you are trying to talk me out of it.Nothing you've offered thus far is anymore concrete than what I've linked. That's the difference.
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"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
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17th November 2015, 07:16 PM | #665 |
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17th November 2015, 07:20 PM | #666 |
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"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
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17th November 2015, 07:28 PM | #667 |
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No, you're just asking what's wrong with people who don't. You chastise people for not "considering" your ideas. In fact your ideas have been considered and discussed at some length. That consideration does not result in approval, which seems to be what's bothering you.
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17th November 2015, 07:31 PM | #668 |
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You're the one claiming that near-death experiences are "a dying brain." I think that's a very simplistic characterization. But since it's your characterization, please define and support it.
You're the one claiming that reports of a "rich and varied" experience associated with near-death states of mind are incompatible with "a dying brain." You didn't explain how or why. Please correct those deficiencies. |
17th November 2015, 07:39 PM | #669 |
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Yet for some reason you can tell us that "rich" experiences are not possible in the physiological state that gives rise to near-death experiences. Can you please reconcile your claim of inherent unknowability in these matters with your ability to assertively reject the competing hypothesis.
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17th November 2015, 08:21 PM | #670 |
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Very little was considered other than what motives I might have been for wanting to discuss the topic.
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"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd |
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17th November 2015, 09:39 PM | #671 |
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Speaking of a life review... Whenever I'm doing something really repetitive and boring for a sustained amount of time, I start having random memories pop up of things that have happened previously in my life, totally unrelated to what I'm doing. Anyone else have that happen?
Anyway, I've often thought that if it were overlayed with a sort of endorphin-fueled euphoria that makes everything seem vivid and important, rather than with boredom, it would be like the stories about a life review at death, and maybe the brain just does that sometimes when it's not getting enough external input. But I don't know how I'd even begin to search if these sorts of unbidden life memories are common in certain situations like sustained boredom or similar almost trance-like states. |
17th November 2015, 09:40 PM | #672 |
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Let's let the readers decide whether you were appropriately answered in this thread (especially there at the end) and whether the record shows you paid adequate attention to the thread to know authoritatively what was and wasn't said in it.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...=295654&page=7 |
18th November 2015, 12:19 AM | #673 |
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Jodie knows she's gaming.
She has me on some form of ignore. She is simply looping her "arguments" - mixing her special purple bridge paint. She ignores substance and inflates opposition into attack. All of this she does in every thread she's in. It's like the toilet is leaking and the plumber is locked out. |
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18th November 2015, 01:18 AM | #674 |
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18th November 2015, 01:52 AM | #675 |
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18th November 2015, 02:00 AM | #676 |
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That depends.
Once the claim is on the table and the claimant fails to support that claim in any way whatsoever, judgement of credibility is possible. If the claimant does nothing but to persist with the claim and avoids providing any proper supporting evidence, credibility judgement becomes an easy logical consequence. |
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18th November 2015, 02:03 AM | #677 |
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18th November 2015, 04:59 AM | #678 |
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18th November 2015, 05:38 AM | #679 |
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Science can't tell us anything about the Near Death Experience and about consciousness. That's not because the Near Death Experience or consciousness are illusions. It's because science is limited.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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18th November 2015, 05:59 AM | #680 |
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"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
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