Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

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Ok JD116, I'll humour you and agree with your maths assumptions on the sublimation of surface ice on a comet :thumbsup:

but

Why do you think they are highly collimated? The type 3 "jets" in question I mean.

Well, we can only theorise, until such time as OSIRIS can get closer and look at the regions in detail. If we're talking about the 'perihelion jets', then they would have to be constrained by their sources. As the linked abstract I provided hypothesised, perhaps a fracture opening up. It could also be an area with a pocket of highly volatile ice below it which overcomes the tensile strength of a consolidated dust mantle above it due to gas pressure. Maybe the collapse of material from a cliff that exposes volatile material.
Any number of possible scenarios. Before and after pictures should help.
 
And how do they get 0.5 - 0.7 kms? Vapour pressure does not seems to be enough?

As the equation I wrote further up says, this is the expected speed that gas molecules will have.
This, I believe (and chemistry was never my strong suit) applies universally. I'm guessing, until someone with a better knowledge corrects me, that in what is essentially a vacuum, that the escaping molecules will not be slowed down as they would be in an atmosphere due to having a longer mean free path. There's not as much to collide with, in other words. This might be a place to start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell–Boltzmann_distribution

ETA:
In other words, this is not reliant on an equation that has been derived specifically for comets, as far as I can see.
 
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Right, Sol has forced me into doing chemistry, for which I won't forgive him! However, I believe that the equation that is most relevant is this one:
Vp = sqrt (2RT/M)
Vp = Most probable speed
R = Gas constant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_constant)
T = Temperature (Kelvin)
M = Molar mass
Note that the molar mass in the equation is in units of kilograms. So, if one were inputting the molar mass of H2O, one would put 0.018 kg, and not 18. Only an idiot would do that, and wonder why the result was not as expected. :o
There is an online calculator here: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/kintem.html#c4

EDIT:
Actually, maybe it's the mean speed that is most relevant, the equation for which is given in the online calculator link.
 
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Right, I seem to have found a definitive answer to the gas expansion speed equation.
It is from https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...gas thermal expansion velocity comets&f=false

So, Vth = sqrt (3kT/m gas)
Where,
Vth = thermal expansion velocity
k = Boltzmann constant (1.38064852 × 10-23 m^2 kg s^-2 K^-1)
T = temperature in Kelvin
m gas = weight of individual moleciule*

*This can be worked out by finding the molar mass of the molecule in question (i.e. H2O = 18 g/mol), and then dividing by Avogadro's constant (6.02214086 × 10^23 mol^-1).
So for H2O this would be 0.018kg/6.02214086 × 10^23 mol^-1 = ~2.99 x 10^-26 kg.

Instead of doing that every time, I bunged a few numbers and formulae into an excel spreadsheet.
At 300K, H2O would have an expansion velocity of ~645 m s^-1.
 
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Instead of doing that every time, I bunged a few numbers and formulae into an excel spreadsheet.
At 300K, H2O would have an expansion velocity of ~645 m s^-1.

And I needn't have bothered! This is the same equation and result as given by the online calculator that I linked to for the root mean square speed. The equation is slightly different, and uses the gas constant and molar mass, rather than the Boltzmann constant and individual particle/ molecule mass.
Result is the same.

You live and learn.
 
Nice posts, jonesdave116. A pity that given Sol88's track record he will ignore the science and just ask you more and more questions that are irrelevant to this thread topic of electric comets.
 
Right, I seem to have found a definitive answer to the gas expansion speed equation.
It is from https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...gas thermal expansion velocity comets&f=false

So, Vth = sqrt (3kT/m gas)
Where,
Vth = thermal expansion velocity
k = Boltzmann constant (1.38064852 × 10-23 m^2 kg s^-2 K^-1)
T = temperature in Kelvin
m gas = weight of individual moleciule*

*This can be worked out by finding the molar mass of the molecule in question (i.e. H2O = 18 g/mol), and then dividing by Avogadro's constant (6.02214086 × 10^23 mol^-1).
So for H2O this would be 0.018kg/6.02214086 × 10^23 mol^-1 = ~2.99 x 10^-26 kg.

Instead of doing that every time, I bunged a few numbers and formulae into an excel spreadsheet.
At 300K, H2O would have an expansion velocity of ~645 m s^-1.

And @170k?

Which formula are you using to account for the fine, filamentary structure at the surface whilst merging into larger collimated structures further out?

Does the 300k hold on the night side of the comet?

Like I said nothing wrong with your maths, just your assumptions :rolleyes:
 
Which formula are you using to account for the fine, filamentary structure at the surface whilst merging into larger collimated structures further out?
Let us get back to the actual topic of the thread rather than spoon-feeding Sol88 every bit of the working science behind comets for the next 6 years :eek:.

Sol88: Do you have an actual evidence supporting the delusion that Thunderbolts cult has with their electric comet idea of comets being rocks blasted out of rocky planets such as the Earth after 1500 BCE (the ejection of Venus from Jupiter)?

The parroting of the Thunderbolt cult ignorance, delusions and lies in this thread alone (continuation of a thread that is now 6 years of delusions from Sol88 and Haig!).
10th April 2015: The ignorance, delusions and lies in the Thunderbolts web site, videos, etc. mostly cited by Haig.
242 days and counting of fear of doing basic physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.
 
And @170k?
~400 - ~485 m/s. That's why I linked to an online calculator. Save me having to do it every time.

Which formula are you using to account for the fine, filamentary structure at the surface whilst merging into larger collimated structures further out?
Why would that need a formula? Try not to forget that what you are seeing is dust. Try this: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1512.03193.pdf

Does the 300k hold on the night side of the comet?
The ice is non-sapient. It doesn't know whether it is night or day. It just sublimates if the temperature is sufficient for it to do so. You may want to check out 'thermal lag'. Try this paper: https://hal-insu.archives-ouvertes.fr/insu-01260243/

Like I said nothing wrong with your maths, just your assumptions :rolleyes:
Perhaps you'd like to point out what I, and the highly qualified scientists have missed, that is obvious to you?
We know the temperature of the source regions of some of the active areas, we know the approximate temperature of the jets. We know the speed, and that of the dust. We have temperature maps covering most of the comet (possibly all, by now). Nothing in any of that that is anomalous.
 
@Tusenfem;
OK, I've waited a seemly amount of time; what, in the name of all that's holy, are you doing in Myanmar? Or is it Burma?
 
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@Tusenfem;
OK, I've waited a seemly amount of time; what, in the name of all that's holy, are you doing in Myanmar? Or is it Burma?

pagodas pagodas pagodas
just a nice trip through this interesting country
pics can be viewed on my facebook
 
Can't speak for RC, but based on the evidence, my answer to that question would be no.

Perhaps we should turn the question around; is there anything in the evidence so far collected, that would make any rational human being still believe in Wallace & Gromit's electric comet silliness?

1. The solar wind (SW) carries a detectable magnetic field of ~2 nT, while the magnetic field in the inner coma of 67P showed a value of ~4 nT, indicating that the magnetic field energy density was higher closer to the nucleus.
2. Magnetic field oscillations at ~ 40 mHz dominate the immediate plasma environment of the nucleus and showed no preferred propagation direction.
3. An electric current density of 4.8 × 10-9 A.m2 was determined.

So far so good, unlike the sublimating "Dark Ice or super volatiles" that's exceptionally good at hiding! Such as that which is needed for your explosive collimated "jet"

Add up all the surprises to date (With the mainstream model) and compare them to the Electric Comets surprises...telling is it not?
 
Perhaps we should turn the question around; is there anything in the evidence so far collected, that would make any rational human being still believe in Wallace & Gromit's electric comet silliness?

Sure there is...for any rational non deluded able to read between the lines have half a brain to work stuff out for themselves type rational homo sapien.

Episode 1 – Charge Separation in the Plasma Environment of Comet 67P

Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity
 
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So far so good, unlike the sublimating "Dark Ice or super volatiles" that's exceptionally good at hiding! Such as that which is needed for your explosive collimated "jet"

Add up all the surprises to date (With the mainstream model) and compare them to the Electric Comets surprises...telling is it not?

it is telling something, but most likely not what you are thinking
you forgot to quote that the comet is non-magnetized
you forgot to quote that later in my papar the magnetic field was up to 60 nt
just quotemining and putting them together in whatever order you see fit does not science make
 
So far so good, unlike the sublimating "Dark Ice or super volatiles" that's exceptionally good at hiding! Such as that which is needed for your explosive collimated "jet"

Add up all the surprises to date (With the mainstream model) and compare them to the Electric Comets surprises...telling is it not?

Sure there is...for any rational non deluded able to read between the lines have half a brain to work stuff out for themselves type rational homo sapien.

Episode 1 – Charge Separation in the Plasma Environment of Comet 67P

Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity

from thre first link, dranariba writes
"In this model [mainstrea model, 1005], the solar wind-associated interplanetary magnetic field (IMF) interacts with comet’s coma, creating a bow shock due to the pile up of magnetic fields on the sunward direction of the comet. "
again dranariba snows he has no clue, thisxdoes not a bow shock create, a bow schock is created by an obstacle in the flow and its presence being communicated upstream by (fast) waves. depnding on the size and caracteristics of the object this can form a bow shock at which the flow is slowed from super- to subsonic velocities.
it has nothing to do with the magnetic field piling up in front of the nucleus, that is determined by the outgassing and ionization rate.
dranariba should first read up on basics before writing nonsense

another quote
"Equally important to this model, neutral gas molecules in the coma are thought to sublimate from the nucleus and then undergo photoionization by extreme ultraviolet (EUV) radiation emanating from the sun, resulting in charge separation and the formation of a plasma sheath surrounding the nucleus."

the gas cannot BUT ionize in the uv of the sun, but he use of "charge separation" is weird, because it just creates ions and electrons and although they are now "separated" it is not what we usually call charge separation in which + goes to the left and - goes to the right. it does create a partially ionized (dusty) plasma around the nucleus, but i am afraid that dranariba puts tbhe thunderdolts on the wrong leg.

a last quote (i need to go to the pool)
"The authors discard the classical pick up ion instabilities as the source of the magnetic oscillations and instead propose that photoionized ions move transverse to the magnetic field but along the solar wind, which flows in the direction of the electric field, in what is called a cross-field electric current density. In other words, the electric fields control cometary ion motion but in a different way from the known mass loading action."

first of all the lorenz force makes the particles gyrate only perpendicular to the magnetic field (imf) and not perpendicular to the solar wind direction, again a basic mistake from dranariba
the, we do not discard clasdical pick up, of which the process in the oaper is part. we see the newly formed particles (ions) when the are just ionized and are accelerated by the motionsl electric filed (which is perp to imf ad sw directions) but as the field is so lw and the mass is so high the gyration radius is on the order of 10000 km. when we are at the source this part of the circle we see can be considered a straight line an we get that the ions flow perpendicular to the field creating this cross field current, driven by the solar wind motional electric field in the rest frame of the ions.

it is EXACTLY like the mass loading mechanism
dranariba is talking bull, and does not understand the papers he reads

enough now
 
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like this nonesense

1. The ion and electron sensor (IES) detected nanograins with nearly monoenergetic beams in the 200 to 500 eV range.
2. These nanograins, which authors attribute to water nano-grains 3 to 4 nm in diameter, were negative-charged and were traveling away from the nucleus of the comet in the sun-ward direction.
3. Moreover, no signal for positive-charged nanograins was detected by the sensor.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284332740_Negatively_charged_nano-grains_at_67PChuryumov-Gerasimenko
 
from thre first link, dranariba writes
"In this model [mainstrea model, 1005], the solar wind-associated interplanetary magnetic field (IMF) interacts with comet’s coma, creating a bow shock due to the pile up of magnetic fields on the sunward direction of the comet. "
again dranariba snows he has no clue, thisxdoes not a bow shock create, a bow schock is created by an obstacle in the flow and its presence being communicated upstream by (fast) waves. depnding on the size and caracteristics of the object this can form a bow shock at which the flow is slowed from super- to subsonic velocities.
it has nothing to do with the magnetic field piling up in front of the nucleus, that is determined by the outgassing and ionization rate.
dranariba should first read up on basics before writing nonsense

another quote
"Equally important to this model, neutral gas molecules in the coma are thought to sublimate from the nucleus and then undergo photoionization by extreme ultraviolet (EUV) radiation emanating from the sun, resulting in charge separation and the formation of a plasma sheath surrounding the nucleus."

the gas cannot BUT ionize in the uv of the sun, but he use of "charge separation" is weird, because it just creates ions and electrons and although they are now "separated" it is not what we usually call charge separation in which + goes to the left and - goes to the right. it does create a partially ionized (dusty) plasma around the nucleus, but i am afraid that dranariba puts tbhe thunderdolts on the wrong leg.

a last quote (i need to go to the pool)
"The authors discard the classical pick up ion instabilities as the source of the magnetic oscillations and instead propose that photoionized ions move transverse to the magnetic field but along the solar wind, which flows in the direction of the electric field, in what is called a cross-field electric current density. In other words, the electric fields control cometary ion motion but in a different way from the known mass loading action."

first of all the lorenz force makes the particles gyrate only perpendicular to the magnetic field (imf) and not perpendicular to the solar wind direction, again a basic mistake from dranariba
the, we do not discard clasdical pick up, of which the process in the oaper is part. we see the newly formed particles (ions) when the are just ionized and are accelerated by the motionsl electric filed (which is perp to imf ad sw directions) but as the field is so lw and the mass is so high the gyration radius is on the order of 10000 km. when we are at the source this part of the circle we see can be considered a straight line an we get that the ions flow perpendicular to the field creating this cross field current, driven by the solar wind motional electric field in the rest frame of the ions.

it is EXACTLY like the mass loading mechanism
dranariba is talking bull, and does not understand the papers he reads

enough now

So electric all the way? :rolleyes:
 
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