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Old 22nd May 2016, 04:54 PM   #1
Puppycow
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5-year old girl shoots self with responsible Dad's gun

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...ng_shower.html

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Ursin told local CBS affiliate WWL said that the whole thing was a bit unusual because the father, a military veteran, would often speak about the importance of gun safety. “He would tell them about the dangers and he had this thing about safety," she said. "He did not want them to be ignorant of the fact that they can harm you." Neighbors said Moore had served in Iraq and was recently divorced.
It's a good thing that he was very concerned about gun safety and warned his children about the dangers of guns.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 05:37 PM   #2
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They're always "responsible" right up until they aren't. This is so sad.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 06:02 PM   #3
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Haley Moore happened to find her father’s unsecured gun on a table
That is one guy into gun safety
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Old 22nd May 2016, 06:13 PM   #4
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Yes, another example to support my contention that America's policy of giving guns to almost anyone who wants one is dangerous.

This guy was a perfect candidate for gun ownership. He ticked all the boxes. And tragedy still happened because he made the elementary mistake of leaving a gun unsecured.

When even the best people can't prevent horrific incidents like this, it's time to recognise that your policy of letting almost everyone who wants one have one has failed, and perhaps putting a few restrictions in place is necessary.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 06:27 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This guy was a perfect candidate for gun ownership. He ticked all the boxes. And tragedy still happened because he made the elementary mistake of leaving a gun unsecured.
Are you being facetious here? The guy left a loaded gun on a table...when his children were around...and then went off to take a shower. The successive degrees of stupidity here are impressive.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 06:49 PM   #6
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It would be a lot easier to take the anti-gun lobby more seriously if they devoted just a fraction of the energy they do to guns to making drowning deaths less common.

From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day.
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreation...factsheet.html

For every one of these posts about a kid shooting themselves (and they seem to pop up about once a week), there are 70 ignored drowning incidents. Why aren't there ten posts a day here blasting stupid parents whose unattended kid drowned?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 06:55 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It would be a lot easier to take the anti-gun lobby more seriously if they devoted just a fraction of the energy they do to guns to making drowning deaths less common.
Idiotic response of the week.

It is perfectly possible to campaign for both water safety and gun safety at the same time, unless one has an incredibly small and worthless mind.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 06:59 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Are you being facetious here? The guy left a loaded gun on a table...when his children were around...and then went off to take a shower. The successive degrees of stupidity here are impressive.
Well, that is arth's point. The guy was a (disabled) veteran. He was trained in the use of guns. He was very much aware of their danger. He repeatedly stressed to neighbors he knew their danger and that he kept them safely away each weekend his kids were around.

And then this happens.

Like RogueKitten said: he's a responsible gun owner until he isn't.

According to Everytown for Gun Safety, it's the 94th time this year a minor picked up a gun and shot someone.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 07:11 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Idiotic response of the week.

It is perfectly possible to campaign for both water safety and gun safety at the same time, unless one has an incredibly small and worthless mind.
OK, when's the last time a politician talked about drowning deaths? When's the last time someone started a thread about an unsupervised kid drowning?

It doesn't happen. People just live with the fact that there are basically two ways kids die accidentally in this country: traffic accidents and drowning.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 07:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It would be a lot easier to take the anti-gun lobby more seriously if they devoted just a fraction of the energy they do to guns to making drowning deaths less common.

From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day.
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreation...factsheet.html

For every one of these posts about a kid shooting themselves (and they seem to pop up about once a week), there are 70 ignored drowning incidents. Why aren't there ten posts a day here blasting stupid parents whose unattended kid drowned?
Yeah. Why aren't boats illegal?? After all, if anyone ever dies because of something, get rid of it! And what's up w/showers? People slipping and breaking their necks. And yet our gov't still permits them



But hurray for another gun rant thread, just don't have enough here......
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Old 22nd May 2016, 07:30 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
When even the best people can't prevent horrific incidents like this, it's time to recognise that your policy of letting almost everyone who wants one have one has failed, and perhaps putting a few restrictions in place is necessary.
And you keep adding more restrictions until you reach zero accidents or a total ban, right?

And, of course, this applies only to guns and not to the things that cause far more accidental deaths, which of course never get threads here because people don't have such irrational reactions to them.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 09:30 PM   #12
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Hey look, it's this thread again!
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Old 22nd May 2016, 09:37 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Idiotic response of the week.

It is perfectly possible to campaign for both water safety and gun safety at the same time, unless one has an incredibly small and worthless mind.
Not only that, I'm yet to see someone carry a loaded swimming pool with the intention of killing someone.

I simply can't believer that gun "enthusiasts" continue to use the failed swimming pool analogy.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 09:46 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Not only that, I'm yet to see someone carry a loaded swimming pool with the intention of killing someone.
And I've yet to see anyone-police, civilian, military- defend themselves against attack with a loaded swimming pool. They seem to have no utility, yet are responsible for thousands of kids drowning every year.

Quote:
I simply can't believer that gun "enthusiasts" continue to use the failed swimming pool analogy.
And I can't believe people are obsessed about children getting hold of a gun and shooting themselves, which kills about 100 kids a year, while totally ignoring drownings, which kill about 70 kids a week.

But hey, whatever makes you feel outraged, right?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 09:58 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Not only that, I'm yet to see someone carry a loaded swimming pool with the intention of killing someone.

I simply can't believer that gun "enthusiasts" continue to use the failed swimming pool analogy.
Which opens up the drowning man analogy - you know, the one about clutching at straws.

That's what the gun lobby is doing.

C'est a la vie; c'est la mort.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 10:10 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
And I've yet to see anyone-police, civilian, military- defend themselves against attack with a loaded swimming pool. They seem to have no utility, yet are responsible for thousands of kids drowning every year.



And I can't believe people are obsessed about children getting hold of a gun and shooting themselves, which kills about 100 kids a year, while totally ignoring drownings, which kill about 70 kids a week.

But hey, whatever makes you feel outraged, right?
I would hardly call it "ignoring" in that there are rules and laws in place to increase swimming pool safety. These include laws requiring gates and locked access to swimming pools that do reduce toddler deaths. But kids still die, so any new ideas would be very welcome!

Which brings up the question of if you or Wildcat have any ideas to lower the rate of toddler deaths from guns. Any ideas? Or is the current rate the best we can do and is acceptible to allow others their "Constitutional Right" to have access to guns without annoying inconveniences?

Assuming, of course, that we are allowed to try to reduce toddler's dying even out of order from most frequently to least frequently. Otherwise I guess that we will need to allow kids to drown in pools until we stop them completely from dying in car accidents.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 10:18 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I would hardly call it "ignoring" in that there are rules and laws in place to increase swimming pool safety. These include laws requiring gates and locked access to swimming pools that do reduce toddler deaths. But kids still die, so any new ideas would be very welcome!
Ban swimming pools at private residences. That was tough.

Quote:
Which brings up the question of if you or Wildcat have any ideas to lower the rate of toddler deaths from guns. Any ideas? Or is the current rate the best we can do and is acceptible to allow others their "Constitutional Right" to have access to guns without annoying inconveniences?
Well, we also have laws and background checks for buying guns, just like there are for requiring gates and locked access. Since accidental gun deaths are a miniscule fraction of deaths from drowning, which laws seem more effective? Where should the focus be? On drownings, which kill 3,000 kids a year, or guns, which kill 100?

Quote:
Assuming, of course, that we are allowed to try to reduce toddler's dying even out of order from most frequently to least frequently. Otherwise I guess that we will need to allow kids to drown in pools until we stop them completely from dying in car accidents.
Except that cars actually have utility, and most people need at least one to live a normal life. You could ban private swimming pools and...what would happen? Kids would be forced to go to the park and swim with a lifeguard present and we would save thousands of lives a year?

Seems like a no-brainer. Ban residential pools. Agreed?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 10:45 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Ban swimming pools at private residences. That was tough.
Apart from the idea that 3,000 kids drown in swimming pools each year is a myth.

Quote:
Well, we also have laws and background checks for buying guns, just like there are for requiring gates and locked access.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Having fences, locks, and gates on a pool is not the same as having background checks, but rather mandating that guns be kept in safes.

Quote:
Since accidental gun deaths are a miniscule fraction of deaths from drowning, which laws seem more effective? Where should the focus be? On drownings, which kill 3,000 kids a year, or guns, which kill 100?
Except that it's not 3,000 kids a year. It's about 3,500 people in total. Kids are about 1 in 5 of those, so 700 over all, the vast majority of those being in natural water such as rivers and the ocean. Only 16% are reported as in swimming pools, around 100 a year. Hang on, isn't that comparable to those shot?

Quote:
Except that cars actually have utility, and most people need at least one to live a normal life. You could ban private swimming pools and...what would happen? Kids would be forced to go to the park and swim with a lifeguard present and we would save thousands of lives a year?

Seems like a no-brainer. Ban residential pools. Agreed?
No, because your facts aren't right. Now if you were to say teach kids to swim, and make sure they have adult supervision when they are in the water, only allowing them to swim between the flags,and keeping swimming pools fenced and locked up when not in use, then we'd make a good dent in the 700 deaths a year, as would not leaving them alone in the bathtub (which to me is as bad as leaving them in a room alone with a gun on the table.)

Might be a good idea to do the same with guns....
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Old 22nd May 2016, 10:54 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Apart from the idea that 3,000 kids drown in swimming pools each year is a myth.



You are comparing apples and oranges. Having fences, locks, and gates on a pool is not the same as having background checks, but rather mandating that guns be kept in safes.



Except that it's not 3,000 kids a year. It's about 3,500 people in total. Kids are about 1 in 5 of those, so 700 over all, the vast majority of those being in natural water such as rivers and the ocean. Only 16% are reported as in swimming pools, around 100 a year. Hang on, isn't that comparable to those shot?



No, because your facts aren't right. Now if you were to say teach kids to swim, and make sure they have adult supervision when they are in the water, only allowing them to swim between the flags,and keeping swimming pools fenced and locked up when not in use, then we'd make a good dent in the 700 deaths a year, as would not leaving them alone in the bathtub (which to me is as bad as leaving them in a room alone with a gun on the table.)

Might be a good idea to do the same with guns....
So we protect adults and kids. Win, win.

16% of 3500 is 560 needless deaths a year. Ban swimming pools. Agreed?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 11:03 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
So we protect adults and kids. Win, win.

16% of 3500 is 560 needless deaths a year. Ban swimming pools. Agreed?
You really want to add in all deaths and compare?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 11:10 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You really want to add in all deaths and compare?
You already did the comparison. I stand corrected. We'll go with 100 kids drowning in pools a year.

When's the last time someone posted about it? When's the last time some politician talked about it?

We can ban pools and save 100 kids a year. Why don't we do it? Why don't you support that?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 11:21 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You already did the comparison. I stand corrected. We'll go with 100 kids drowning in pools a year.

When's the last time someone posted about it? When's the last time some politician talked about it?

We can ban pools and save 100 kids a year. Why don't we do it? Why don't you support that?
What's wrong with the suggestions I made up thread? Making sure that they are locked up and not accessible to children when not in use, teaching children to swim, making sure that children using them do so under adult supervision, and that they are never left alone with them. Do you have any objection to those rules?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 11:41 PM   #23
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I refuse to engage, but I must comment, because when I read this story it made me physically ill--yet another innocent kid dead because of the insanity of gun worship in this country. And for what? Seriously--for stinkin' what??
I am older than this 'responsible' dad--I've lived in and near major cities my whole life, walked the streets and rode the subways late at night in some of the roughest neighborhoods around, and not once have I felt like I was in danger because I wasn't carrying a firearm. Yeah, I know, it's your 'right' and you feel safer because of it. Well, as a consequence, you have the blood of this five year old on your hands. Despicable. And for the last time, it is not a stinking swimming pool, chainsaw, boat, car...I will likely not return to this thread, because I know how it will unfold...same way every other thread on the subject unfolds. I'm just registering my outrage.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 11:42 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
We'll go with 100 kids drowning in pools a year.

When's the last time someone posted about it?
Seems to come up with monotonous regularity here.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 02:19 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
And you keep adding more restrictions until you reach zero accidents or a total ban, right?
Once again Wildcat repeats the blatant and deliberate outright lie that I am in any way in favour of a total ban.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 03:06 AM   #26
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Good morning. Why have I never seen a thread about this?

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Isnt it time we do something about Nick Cage?
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Old 23rd May 2016, 03:07 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You already did the comparison. I stand corrected. We'll go with 100 kids drowning in pools a year.

When's the last time someone posted about it? When's the last time some politician talked about it?

We can ban pools and save 100 kids a year. Why don't we do it? Why don't you support that?
Because everything children do carries a risk, from trampolines to cycling and there are deaths and injuries ever year from these activities.

But swimming pools, trampolines and bicycles are not used by gangs to kill each other, they are not taken out during drunken arguments to kill, they are not used in college massacres, they are not flowing across the border with Mexico to help fuel the drugs wars.

I can picture children laughing and playing in pools, on a trampoline, with cycles and I would happily join in. I cannot picture giving the children real, loaded guns and watching them play. Can you?

Do you see the difference now?

Bringing swimming pools into the gun control debate is like Wildcat's lying about others wanting to ban guns totally. It is a spoiler to stifle debate and keep the status quo used by the less intelligent.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 03:34 AM   #28
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It should be noted that gun safety includes keeping guns away from people who shouldn't have them such as having them securely locked up in gun lockers instead of leaving them out in the open or even hidden in cloth drawers.

This isn't just to prevent kids from shooting their brains out with them but also to keep burglars and other thieves from stealing them.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 04:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
just a "partial" ban
Just as there is now. Unless, of course, you are going to contend that anyone in the US can own any type of weapon. What I argue for is that the line be re-drawn, as it was in Australia 20 years ago. Do I need to remind you that there hasn't been any mass firearm killings here since then?
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Old 23rd May 2016, 04:49 AM   #30
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This seems like there might be a design and/or engineering solution here.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
And you keep adding more restrictions until you reach zero accidents or a total ban, right?
What would you suggest? It's broken so don't fix it?
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Old 23rd May 2016, 05:11 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Except that it's not 3,000 kids a year. It's about 3,500 people in total. Kids are about 1 in 5 of those, so 700 over all, the vast majority of those being in natural water such as rivers and the ocean. Only 16% are reported as in swimming pools, around 100 a year. Hang on, isn't that comparable to those shot?
Crucially, this report shows that children's deaths are trending downwards. What is the trend like for gun-related deaths?
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Old 23rd May 2016, 05:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It would be a lot easier to take the anti-gun lobby more seriously if they devoted just a fraction of the energy they do to guns to making drowning deaths less common.
My state requires life jackets for kids 7 and under and has laws dictating who may use what boats and where. I'd be okay if those laws were expanded. I'd also be okay if equivalent safety devices and usage laws were put into place for guns.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 05:21 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
If you support US gun laws you support a partial ban. Do you support US gun laws or can responsible citizens own bazookas, flame throwers and missile launchers?
Well yes. There's a certain amount of paperwork (and several sets of laws) but explosive ordnance is legal under the Title II/Destructive Device category. Flamethrowers aren't regulated under Federal law at all though states can (and do) ban them.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 05:22 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Two rather wide categories and the latter at least is also somewhat subjective.

One of the reasons why I think that mental health clauses aren't particularly effective is that in marginal cases, a subjective call will have to be made and just because I'm mentally competent today, it doesn't mean that I'm going to be tomorrow - and just because I had mental health issues 10 or 20 years ago, it doesn't mean I'm still not competent...
In the UK the referee is expected to report mental health issues and the licence holder required to report anything.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 05:23 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You already did the comparison. I stand corrected. We'll go with 100 kids drowning in pools a year.

When's the last time someone posted about it? When's the last time some politician talked about it?

We can ban pools and save 100 kids a year. Why don't we do it? Why don't you support that?
You can't ban everything that could cause death. you need to look at the cost benefit. In a typical month 18,500,000 people swim in the USA and around 10 kids die.

A similar number of kids are killed by guns. How many times do the public defend themselves against attack with a gun in a typical month?
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Old 23rd May 2016, 05:25 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Well yes. There's a certain amount of paperwork (and several sets of laws) but explosive ordnance is legal under the Title II/Destructive Device category. Flamethrowers aren't regulated under Federal law at all though states can (and do) ban them.
I'd like a cite showing that missile launchers can be legally owned by an ordinary citizen in the US.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 05:30 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
WildCat is also in favour of a partial ban. He does not want criminals and those with mental health issues to have guns.
It's completely reasonable to prohibit non-violent white-collar criminals from owning guns (even-though they'd probably not even want to) while at the same time allowing rural red-neck militias, that dream of becoming martyrs by fighting the federal government, to keep huge arsenals of semi-automatic rifles.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 06:16 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Not only that, I'm yet to see someone carry a loaded swimming pool with the intention of killing someone.

I simply can't believer that gun "enthusiasts" continue to use the failed swimming pool analogy.
I'm sure it's very inconvenient for you since it lays bare your irrational hypocrisy.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 06:30 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Apart from the idea that 3,000 kids drown in swimming pools each year is a myth.
Over 1500 people drown in pools every year, which is more than triple the number that die in firearm accidents. And there are only about 13 million pools in the USA, compared with 300 million funs. A skeptic would note that makes accidentally dying in any given pool nearly 70 times more likely than accidentally being killed by any given gun.

Only irrational fear explains why there is a call to have more control on guns than swimming pools, because the math doesn't lie about which item causes more accidental deaths.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You are comparing apples and oranges. Having fences, locks, and gates on a pool is not the same as having background checks, but rather mandating that guns be kept in safes.
The laws on pools can't even be enforced, and they're out in yards in plain view. So how on earth do your intend to enforce such a law on guns? Not to mention your solution would require amending the Constitution, since such laws have already been struck down by the courts.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 06:32 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Once again Wildcat repeats the blatant and deliberate outright lie that I am in any way in favour of a total ban.
I'm fairly confident that this was your exact claim in one of the 50 bazillion other threads on this very same topic.
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