Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

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Sol88, let me help you out.
Oh dear - the deluded (planets are stars) trying to help out the deluded (comets are rocks) :p!
jeffreyw: 65 items of ignorance and delusion since 15th January 2015

2 December 2016 Sol88: 37 items of ignorance, delusions and lies just from 29 August 2016 (not including the previous 7 years!)

The observed composition of comets is ices and dust, e.g. the Deep Impact impact on Tempel 1 in 2005 blew off water ice and dust. The physical properties of ices in comet nuclei when the Sun heats them up means that they have to sublimate thus forming jets. We have traced jets on 67P to pits and cracks in cliff faces. We have images of jets being emitted from the inside of pits on 67P.
 
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On a different subject, I said:



Which is wrong. Mea culpa. However, it still can only happen at times of low outgassing, as proposed in Sol's favourite paper by Nordheim, et al. And also proposed many years earlier by Mendis, et al (including Whipple): http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/...age=787&epage=787&send=Send+PDF&filetype=.pdf

EDIT: It should also be noted that this effect will be seen on asteroids for the whole of their orbit, due to the lack of volatile outgassing. If this was the principle reason for the dust in cometary comae, then asteroids would appear to be no different to comets. However, even the ones in elliptical orbits DO appear to be very different.

So from the paper, one would expect to see a very fine dry dust escape from the nucleus and be captured by MIDAS and GIADA. Now let's see.... "outgassing" or electrostatic "blow off" :wwt
 
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/c...&filetype=.pdf

...

In the Electric Universe model, a comet is an electrically charged body. During its long period in the outer reaches of the solar system, it acquires a strong negative charge with respect to the Sun. Then, as it approaches the inner limits of its orbit, accelerating through the electric field of the Sun, it will begin to discharge to the plasma surrounding it, producing the familiar bright coma and tail.

The electric comet is thus tied to the electric view of the Sun:

The Sun has an electric field and interacts electrically with comets and planets, including the Earth;

The Earth, like all of the planets, is a charged body;

The Sun is not powered by some mysterious, internal "nuclear furnace", but rather externally by electric currents flowing along the arms of the Milky Way;

99.9% of the universe consists of PLASMA, a conducting medium that has been found to exhibit strong electrical properties. All of space is teeming with charged particles;

All evidence for the electric comet is therefore evidence for the electric Sun and for the electrical nature of stars.

A few of the more persistent comet "mysteries" are listed below:
LINK

:confused:
 
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So from the paper, one would expect to see a very fine dry dust escape from the nucleus and be captured by MIDAS and GIADA. Now let's see.... "outgassing" or electrostatic "blow off" :wwt

And how would you differentiate between the dust from outgassing, and the small (if any) amount from electrostatic levitation?
The obvious way to look at it is a comparison of what is happening at largish heliocentric distances, when the SW is reaching the surface, and what is happening when the SW has no access to the nucleus.
Just a visual check of visible light images will show that at small heliocentric distances there is far more dust around. Ergo, the dust is coming predominantly (possibly wholly) from outgassing the rest of the time. I don't think I've seen a plot of dust versus gas over time, but I would imagine that
it would be fairly well matched.
Nobody is ruling out this mechanism, or calling it woo; it is, after all, a 'mainstream' hypothesis. If that was all Wal & Dave's idea consisted of, then nobody would have a problem. The idea has been around for a long time, vis the Mendis paper.
 
In the Electric Universe model, a comet is an electrically charged body. During its long period in the outer reaches of the solar system, it acquires a strong negative charge with respect to the Sun.

Wrong. The sunlit side will be largely POSITIVE! The shadowed side will be negative.

Then, as it approaches the inner limits of its orbit, accelerating through the electric field of the Sun, it will begin to discharge to the plasma surrounding it, producing the familiar bright coma and tail.

Wrong. What discharges? I'm sure Tusenfem and the rest of the RPC cabal might have mentioned that! And then you have to explain what is going on between ~April and ~January, when the SW isn't even getting near the spacecraft, let alone the nucleus. And, as mentioned seemingly interminably, these 'discharges' are at best the same 'brightness' as the nucleus. That is, reflecting about 6% of the incident sunlight. What kind of discharges do that?

The Sun is not powered by some mysterious, internal "nuclear furnace", but rather externally by electric currents flowing along the arms of the Milky Way;

For which there is zero evidence, nor even a viable mechanism. What is supplying the EMF for these galaxy spanning currents? God? Off topic, anyway.

And as for Thornhill's nonsense in the link, it is just that; nonsense. Evidence-free nonsense, at that. Interlaced with obfuscation, lies and misunderstandings. As pointed out many times.
 
So from the paper, one would expect to see a very fine dry dust escape from the nucleus and be captured by MIDAS and GIADA.
A rational person would expect dust blown off the nucleus by sublimation while the comet ices are hot enough to sublime. They would speculate on a tiny bit of dust being blown off far from the Sun when the solar wind can electrostatically change the surface dust.

This has nothing to do with delusions that there are electrical discharges on comets or that comets are rocks.
 
Sol88: Links to the deluded and lying Thunderbolts web site

No one here is confused. We know that the deluded and lying Thunderbolts web site exists.
6 December 2016 Sol88: Links to and quotes from the deluded and lying Thunderbolts web site.

The parroting of the Thunderbolt cult ignorance, delusions and lies in this thread alone (continuation of a thread that is now 7 years of delusions from Sol88 and Haig!).
10th April 2015: The ignorance, delusions and lies in the Thunderbolts web site, videos, etc.
More than a year and counting of fear of doing basic physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.
 
Sol88: Links to another 2 liars at Thunderbolts- Michael Goodspeed and Steve Smith

6 December 2016 Sol88: Links to another 2 liars at Thunderbolts- Michael Goodspeed and Steve Smith (not the already documented liar Wal Thornhill) lying from 2010.

Michael Goodspeed lies:
There is no mystery about comets breaking up in mainstream science. When a comet made of ices and dust falls into a strong gravitational field such as close to the Sun or Jupiter, tidal forces may or may not tear it apart. The most famous example of this is Comet Shoemaker–Levy 9 breaking up on previous approach before impacting Jupiter.

Steve Smith lies about a comet causing a CME and a CME causing a comet to break up.

We have Thornhill's lies on the "now permanently archived on the Thunderbolts Predictions page".

The flare-up of Comet Holmes 17P in 2007 (not 2008!) has explanations and it is not being deluded about comets.

The usual delusion of "comets look like rock and so must be rock" :eek:!

"Comet "Water" is a bit of a lie (we detect OH- from the photoionization of H20) followed by Thornhill's delusions.
"Comet Origins" is basically lying about the detection of dust from the early, interior Solar System from the Stardust mission. The results are what we expect from radiation pressure taking inner system dust to the outer system where comets are. Ends with an actual lie of "comet scientists cannot give us any reliable story of comet formation".
"The Absence of "Interstellar Comets"" is the delusion that we can detect comets between stars or tell the difference between these and our comets. We cannot even see comets locally until they get close to the Sun. We have only returned samples from 1 comet.
"Cometary Jets" is ignorance about comets leading to a "this theory has been refuted by observation" lie.
"Comets Breaking Apart or Exploding" is a repeat of the first lie on the web page with the addition of the idiocy of denying science - it did not stop in 1976 (Comet West) or 2000 (Comet Linear).

Ending with ignorance and more lies
  • There were expected high temperatures and X-ray emissions from cometary comas
  • The expected sharply carved relief of comets by astronomers.
  • The explained ability of a relatively minuscule comet nucleus to hold in place a highly spherical coma, up to millions of miles in diameter
  • The expected ejection of larger particles and "gravel" that was anticipated under the idea that comets accreted from primordial clouds of ice, gas, dust and larger particles and "gravels"!
  • An explicit lie about a "short supply or complete absence of water and other volatiles on comets' nuclei".
  • Thornhil's lie dating from 2005 about a predicted occurrence of an advance flash prior to the impact of a projectile into the nucleus of Comet Tempel 1.
 
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No stated author for whoever wrote this garbage in 2005: The Jets of Hale-Bopp.
This is someone stupid enough to think that the ices in comets melt ("At this distance, the Sun's heat will not melt ice") :eek:!
It is ices sublimating not melting. As comets get further away from the Sun and cool down, it is other ices than water that are sublimating, e.g. CO2 and methane. The continuing activity of Hale-Bopp was a topic of research back in 1996 - no sign that this author knows that science has progressed since 1996!
 
The flare-up of Comet Holmes 17P in 2007 (not 2008!) has explanations and it is not being deluded about comets.

They looked at the comet shortly after it went poof. Saw ice. Strange that the authors of that bobbins didn't mention that, given that the paper predates that fiction.

Comet 17P/Holmes in Outburst: The Near Infrared Spectrum
Bin Yang, et al. 2009
https://arxiv.org/pdf/0903.1317.pdf
 
And then we have Wal's strange beliefs about forbidden lines:

"Additionally, spectral analysis of neutral oxygen (O) shows a 'forbidden line' indicative of the presence of an 'intense' electric field."

Which was already dealt with some time ago by Tom Bridgman:

Where did Thornhill get bizarre mis-understanding about forbidden lines?

Forbidden lines are created by metastable states in the atom, which have a lifetime much longer than the regular atomic states. Under normal circumstances, these states get de-excited by collisions with other atoms before they have a chance to radiate a photon. However, under extremely low pressures, the states will not be de-excited by collisions and will de-excite by emitting a photon at a frequency correspond to the 'forbidden line'. Electric fields may be in the environment, but they are not required to form forbidden lines.
http://dealingwithcreationisminastr.../11/electric-comets-failures-of-electric.html
 
Just going through some of that thunderdolts nonsense, and it is unbelievable the amount of crap science, and outright lying, that their followers let them get away with! There is a piece linked to comet Linear, which is just full of doodoo, such as:

In fact, the excess of electrons in a cometary coma was first noted in 1986, when the Giotto spacecraft detected an abundance of negatively charged atoms in the inner coma of Comet Halley.

And the paper says:
The negative ion densities are typically ~<10^-4 of the positive-ion densities, and ~<10^-6 of the neutral densities.

Negative ions in the coma of comet Halley
Chaizy, P., et al (1991)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v349/n6308/abs/349393a0.html (paywalled; which is probably why they didn't read it)

Along with yet another outright lie:
But the problem of missing water on the nucleus of comets is as old as the Giotto probe of Comet Halley, which could not find any definitive evidence of water but did find evidence against the presence of water.

No, Giotto did not find evidence against water. It found loads of water ions - H2O+, H3O+. And Vega found neutral water. As did the KAO. I'm guessing those papers were paywalled as well. If in doubt, make stuff up. Who the hell at thunderdolts would know the difference?

And the next obfuscation:
No water could be found on the nucleus of comet Borrelly.

Not by the spacecraft that visited it, which wasn't equipped to detect it. However, coincident with the mission, the ODIN satellite detected ~1000 l/s coming off of it! At ~557 GHz. Definitively H2O.
Observations of water in comets with Odin
Lecacheux, A., et al (2003)
http://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/pdf/2003/18/aaODIN5.pdf

And so it goes on. Lie after lie, obfuscation after obfuscation. Unscientific doodoo piled upon unscientific doodoo.
To correct it all would require somebody to write a book.
 
Here's a doozy from the Woomeister-General (I guess I have been right all along in saying that the electric comet died on July 4 2005):

No middle ground between the two views seems possible, and if it happens that the Deep Impact projectile strikes a solid rock the snowball theory of comets is finished. Mainstream theorists will be left without an explanation for a comet’s coma and tail.

As it didn't strike rock, and as it splashed out a shed load of ice, then it's only fair to turn the quote around, and say that under those circumstances, the electric comet was finished. And they were left without an explanation for where all that ice came from, and why the resulting crater was far too large to have been due to impacting a rock. Which is why they will never address, nor report, those inconvenient facts. Still, why would you when you've still got a bunch of unsold books and DVDs to shift?

EDIT: Just to add:
We have good reason, therefore, to speak of the imminent prospect of a domino effect being unleashed, one that will set in motion one of the great revolutions in human thought and perception.

Whoops.That's not gone well, has it?
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/arch/041229predictions-comets.htm
 
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Wrong. The sunlit side will be largely POSITIVE! The shadowed side will be negative.



Wrong. What discharges? I'm sure Tusenfem and the rest of the RPC cabal might have mentioned that! And then you have to explain what is going on between ~April and ~January, when the SW isn't even getting near the spacecraft, let alone the nucleus. And, as mentioned seemingly interminably, these 'discharges' are at best the same 'brightness' as the nucleus. That is, reflecting about 6% of the incident sunlight. What kind of discharges do that?



For which there is zero evidence, nor even a viable mechanism. What is supplying the EMF for these galaxy spanning currents? God? Off topic, anyway.

And as for Thornhill's nonsense in the link, it is just that; nonsense. Evidence-free nonsense, at that. Interlaced with obfuscation, lies and misunderstandings. As pointed out many times.

Yah JD116, charge differential!!! :D follow the dominoes.

As for any discharges, even in the broadest terms of what an electrical discharge is, why don't we ask Tusenfem and the RPC cabal??

plasma waves? Beam like particle showers, plasma "boundaries", "Singing" comet....
 
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Here's a doozy from the Woomeister-General (I guess I have been right all along in saying that the electric comet died on July 4 2005):



As it didn't strike rock, and as it splashed out a shed load of ice, then it's only fair to turn the quote around, and say that under those circumstances, the electric comet was finished. And they were left without an explanation for where all that ice came from, and why the resulting crater was far too large to have been due to impacting a rock. Which is why they will never address, nor report, those inconvenient facts. Still, why would you when you've still got a bunch of unsold books and DVDs to shift?

EDIT: Just to add:


Whoops.That's not gone well, has it?
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/arch/041229predictions-comets.htm

YOU (Mainstream) can "see" ice in the retreating cliffs on Tempel 1, we (the Electric Universe mob) see the same effect as we see on Io making cliffs and scarps not cart before the horse as mainstream have it. That the jets are produced from them...Are fractured cliffs the source of cometary dust jets ? Insights from OSIRIS/Rosetta at 67P

:whistling:
 
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Yah JD116, charge differential!!! :D follow the dominoes.
v

What about the "charge differential", what do you mean, what are you implying here? The difference between positive sunlit and negative dark side, the total charge, the non-existing solar electric field, what is it Sol?

As for any discharges, even in the broadest terms of what an electrical discharge is, why don't we ask Tusenfem and the RPC cabal??

There are no discharges, if there would the they would be measured, which they are not. Discharges give off a very specific signature. So, why don't YOU show what you mean with discharges.

Oh, wait ... we now have to take the "broadest of terms" whatever that means.

plasma waves? Beam like particle showers, plasma "boundaries", "Singing" comet....

Plasma waves are not discharges, plasma boundaries are not discharges, singing comet is not a discharge, beam like particle showers are not discharges. Unless you can come up with some real theory, your word salat does not make any sense (as usual), and in the end you are only writing up this nonsense, because you like to irritate people, knowing full well that mainstream has to reply to your childish complaints in order for science not to enter into a post-truth era.

Because that's all there is for the electric comet, it is completely "post-truth" (interestingly already before this term was invented). It is all unbased on any fact or physics, there is only "we have this idea" and "we feel like it should be like this" and if the actual data do not show this, we will just make our own interpretation about what is written.

This last point was clear when Sol was conveniently misreading about the collimated jets coming out of the comet and merging (which is a hydrodynamic phenomenon, and yes you will have to learn some physics for that), which were superimposed on a general background dust. Quote from JD's post: "The three-dimensional dust tracing analysis shows that photographed jets are often a conjunction of multiple aligned jet structures on top of a non-collimated, homogeneously released dust background."

Or looking at the image that Sol posted from part of Tom's paper (by the way, here is the correct link: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2015P&SS..119...24N , although looking at it it does not seem to be that paper, okay I found it, it is Mendis et al. 1981: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1981ApJ...249..787M), which states that for large distances d > 5 AU (i.e. outside of Jupiter's orbit) the cometary ions are negligible. Indeed they are, because a century of experience has shown us that comets start to become active only after they cross Jupiter's orbit, as then the solar irradiation is getting strong enough to let ices evaporate. But of course the solar wind, which has then free access to the surface of the comet has both positive and negative particles. There will be a little implantation of these, but mostly there will be sputtering. This means that particles will be knocked off, which can be ions and electrons. The solar UV will kick out electrons from the surface, which can stick to the dark side of the comet. Interestingly, but not surprisingly, Sol left out the (3 pages of) calculations ...

It is oh so easy to make up fantastic beast and to think you know where to find them, but it takes time and effort to become Newt Scamander.
 
Yah JD116, charge differential!!! :D follow the dominoes.

As for any discharges, even in the broadest terms of what an electrical discharge is, why don't we ask Tusenfem and the RPC cabal??

plasma waves? Beam like particle showers, plasma "boundaries", "Singing" comet....

As Tusenfem pointed out, they are not discharges. And, as Tom Bridgman said some time ago:

Electric Universe supporters now rely on a very ambiguous use of term 'discharge'. EU basically wants to call anything that involves the motion of charges as a 'discharge', a definition so broad as to be technically useless. If moving charges is all that is required, chemical reactions, which alter electron orbital configurations, could also be called a 'discharge' process.
http://dealingwithcreationisminastr.../11/electric-comets-failures-of-electric.html

And I think we, as well as you, know precisely what T & T meant when they were talking about discharges:

The observed jets of comets are electric arc discharges to the nucleus, producing “electrical discharge machining” (EDM) of the surface. The excavated material is accelerated into space along the jets’ observed filamentary arcs.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/pdf/ElectricComet.pdf

One assumes that these 'electric arc discharges' are the most prominent, collimated jets, yes? Which, as I've pointed out, are the same 'brightness' as the nucleus, at best. That is, a surface that reflects ~6% of the incident light.
Summer fireworks on comet 67P
Vincent, J.-B., et al.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1609.07743.pdf

So, that particular claim seems to be due to the fact that certain woo peddlers don't understand that those images have been 'stretched' (i.e. the contrast has been altered). In other words, your whole 'discharge' house of cards is built upon pareidolia, and an inability to do a little bit of research.
 
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