Merged The Electric Comet Theory Part III/SAFIRE

jonesdave116 · Aug 3, 2017

Are we able to call "consolidated materials" ROCK?

Call them whatever you like. What is the density of 67P? What size hole did the Tempel 1 impactor make in this consolidated material? What size would it have been if it had been granite? Or sandstone? Et boring cetera.

Sol88 · Aug 3, 2017

Well, we've known for years that the ones at Hartley 2 were CO2 gas. Eh?

the dust removal by a gas drag force is not a plausible physical mechanism. The sublimation of not only water ice, but also of super-volatile ice (i.e., CO) is unable to remove dust grains for illumination conditions corresponding to 1.3 AU.

Meh

jonesdave116 · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88 said:
Looks like you've got yourself a conundrum!

Sorry, where is the conundrum? Stop writing complete nonsense, and actually SPELL OUT what you are saying, so that we do not have to try and guess what is going on in your befuddled mind!

Sol88 · Aug 3, 2017

Really?

DIRTY SNOWBALL MODEL:

Comets are composed of undifferentiated “protoplanetary debris” -- dust and ices left over from the formation of the solar system billions of years ago.

Radiant heat from the Sun sublimates the ices. The vapor expands around the nucleus to form the coma and is swept back by the solar wind to form the tail.

Over repeated passages around the Sun, solar heat vaporizes surface ice and leaves a “rind” of dust.

Where heat penetrates the surface of a blackened, shallow crust, pockets of gas form. Where the pressure breaks through the surface, energetic jets form.

ELECTRIC COMET MODEL:

Comets are debris produced during violent electrical interactions of planets and moons in an earlier phase of solar system history. Comets are similar to asteroids, and their composition varies. Most comets should be homogeneous -- their interiors will have the same composition as their surfaces. They are simply “asteroids on eccentric orbits.”

Comets follow their elongated paths within a weak electrical field centered on the Sun. In approaching the Sun, a charge imbalance develops between the nucleus and the higher voltage and charge density near the Sun. Growing electrical stresses initiate discharges and the formation of a glowing plasma sheath, appearing as the coma and tail.

The observed jets of comets are electric arc discharges to the nucleus, producing “electrical discharge machining” (EDM) of the surface. The excavated material is accelerated into space along the jets’ observed filamentary arcs.

Intermittent and wandering arcs erode the surface and burn it black, leaving the distinctive scarring patterns of electric discharges.

The jets' explode from cometary nuclei at supersonic speeds and retain their coherent structure for hundreds of thousands of miles. The collimation of such jets is a well-documented attribute of plasma discharge.

The tails of comets reveal well-defined filaments extending up to tens of millions of miles without dissipating in the vacuum of space. This “violation” of neutral gas behavior in a vacuum is to be expected of a plasma discharge within the ambient electric field of the Sun.

It is the electric force that holds the spherical cometary coma in place as the comet races around the Sun. The diameter of the visible coma will often reach millions of miles. And the visible coma is surrounded by an even larger and more “improbable” spherical envelope of fluorescing hydrogen visible in ultraviolet light.

The primary distinction between comet and asteroid surfaces is that electrical arcing and “electrostatic cleaning” of the comet nucleus will leave little or no dust or debris on the surface during the active phase, even if a shallow layer of dust may be attracted back to the nucleus electrostatically as the comet becomes dormant in its retreat to more remote regions.

DIRTY SNOWBALL MODEL is ALL the mainstream has!

So please JD116, tell me which model, as in the MAINSTREAM model, I should be comparing the ELECTRIC COMET model too!

Tusenfem said the Dirty Snowball model is a hang over from Whipple and is not correct, so what do YOU have?

jonesdave116 · Aug 3, 2017

List of unanswered questions, just from the last few posts:
What was the white stuff around Hartley 2?
Why were Wally's electrical jets composed of cold CO₂?
What was the size of the crater at Tempel 1? Is that consistent with rock?
Why didn't MIRO or CONSERT detect any rock?
Why was no EDM (lol) detected?

You might want to try and answer those, because whatever argument you are making is killed stone dead by the answers to them.

jonesdave116 · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88 said:
Really?

DIRTY SNOWBALL MODEL is ALL the mainstream has!

Jesus H. Christ. And it is backed up by a LOT of evidence. You, on the other hand, have an unscientific load of hogwash. With ZERO evidence to back it up. Guess which one we all prefer?

Sol88 · Aug 3, 2017

jonesdave116 said:
Jesus H. Christ. And it is backed up by a LOT of evidence. You, on the other hand, have an unscientific load of hogwash. With ZERO evidence to back it up. Guess which one we all prefer?

So Tusenfem is wrong?

Ok

Go ahead and tell me which model the mainstream are now using...

jonesdave116 · Aug 3, 2017

Comets follow their elongated paths within a weak electrical field centered on the Sun.

Really? Evidence, please.

They are simply “asteroids on eccentric orbits.”

Wrong. Check out the density of asteroids v. comets.

Growing electrical stresses initiate discharges....

Never seen. Where are they?

The observed jets of comets are electric arc discharges to the nucleus...

Wrong. They are dust and gas. As observed and measured.

Intermittent and wandering arcs erode the surface and burn it black...

Really? Evidence please. Two years of in-situ observation failed to show any such thing. Pure woo.

The jets' explode from cometary nuclei at supersonic speeds....

Really? Interesting use of the word 'supersonic'. The part of the jets that you can see, i.e. the dust, is going about 20 m/s.

The tails of comets reveal well-defined filaments extending up to tens of millions of miles without dissipating in the vacuum of space. This “violation” of neutral gas behavior in a vacuum is to be expected of a plasma discharge within the ambient electric field of the Sun.

So wrong that it's not even wrong! That would be dust, for the most part.

And the visible coma is surrounded by an even larger and more “improbable” spherical envelope of fluorescing hydrogen visible in ultraviolet light.

Lol. More inane nonsense. What is so improbable about it? Who wrote this crap? A couple of 13 year olds after a glue sniffing session? I quote some bloke called Alfven:

"As a different interpretation of the Lyman-alpha emission from comets, Lai proposed [21] thermalization and recombination of solar protons at collision with the cometary dust in the coma and tail, followed by diffusion and excitation of hydrogen in the observed Lyman-alpha halo. This view might seem to be contraindicated by the fact that roughly matching amounts of oxygen are deduced from observed OH emission. Most workers would take this as a support for the concept of water molecules as the source for both dissociated hydrogen and hydroxyl radicals."

ASTEROID AND COMET EXPLORATION
Arrhenius, G., Alfven, H., Fitzgerald, R., 1973
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730018994.pdf

The primary distinction between comet and asteroid surfaces is that electrical arcing and “electrostatic cleaning” of the comet nucleus will leave little or no dust or debris on the surface during the active phase.....

Wrong. Lots of dust, as seen, and collected.

So, all in all, a complete bunch of rubbish, yes?

jonesdave116 · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88 said:
So Tusenfem is wrong?

Ok

Go ahead and tell me which model the mainstream are now using...

Again, your post makes zero sense. SPELL OUT what you are on about. I am not psychic.

ETA: OK, so you're still prattling on about the 'dirty snowball', yes? That has changed in the 60 some years since Whipple coined the term. Eh?

EETA: I'm not 100% sure that Whipple did coin the term. It may have been adopted by others, possibly the media, based on his model. Which, by the way, is a hell of a lot closer to reality than the garbage dreamed up by T & T. Despite the fact that they had over 50 more years of observations to base their rubbish on than Whipple had!

jonesdave116 · Aug 3, 2017

SIMULATION OF THE ELECTROSTATIC CHARGING OF PHILAE ON 67P/CHURYUMOV-GERASIMENKO AND OF ITS INTERACTION WITH THE DUSTS.

You seem to be missing the point. According to Wally and his mate, there shouldn't be ANY dust around to do anything, when the comet is active:

The primary distinction between comet and asteroid surfaces is that electrical arcing and “electrostatic cleaning” of the comet nucleus will leave little or no dust or debris on the surface during the active phase.....

tusenfem · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88 said:
So Tusenfem is wrong?

Ok

Go ahead and tell me which model the mainstream are now using...

i am always rght and that idiocy from ec is not even wrong
will comment later, today i celebrate one more rounding of tne non-electrical sun

ferd burfle · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88 said:
DIRTY SNOWBALL MODEL is ALL the mainstream has!

Sol, you cling to this strawman like a little kid clutching a security blanket. I'd like you to give it up but then all you'd be left with is taunts.

But the lurkers see who brings evidence and who doesn't. Heck, the EC fails right out of the box based on bulk density data alone. Until you bring a real explanation for that (not that bogus electrical nonsense) there's really no need to get into anything more.

Reality Check · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88: A lie of "only ever had Whipples model" because models existed before Whipple

Sol88 said:
The mainstream only ever had Whipples model!

4 August 2017 Sol88: A lie of "only ever had Whipples model" because comet models existed before Whipple was born!
Fred Lawrence Whipple (November 5, 1906 – August 30, 2004) and astronomers have been writing about comets for centuries before his birth, e.g. Isaac Newton, Immanuel Kant (1775) and Friedrich Wilhelm Bessel (1836).

4 August 2017 Sol88: A lie of Whipple's model being a bust.
The Whipple model is that comets are made of ices and dust with ices dominating. And rocks (which will probably evoke a meaningless rant from Sol88), which are not important until they are left behind at the end of a comet's lifetime, e.g. to give meteor showers. What has changed is that we have seen the ice does not dominate as much as Whipple proposed over 60 years ago.

Reality Check · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88: A link to the ignorant and deluded Thunderbolts cult dogma about comets

Sol88 said:
LINK

4 August 2017 Sol88: A link to the ignorant and deluded Thunderbolts cult dogma about comets that has been debunked for 8 years in tis thread alone :jaw-dropp

!

4 August 2017 Sol88: Repeats his lie of a Michael F. A’Hearn quote stating that comets are rocks.

4 August 2017 Sol88: Cites again

eek

two papers about dust activity on comets made of ices and dust.
3 August 2017 Sol88: A lie about contradictions between comets of ices and dust and a paper on dust activity.[/URL

4 August 2017 Sol88: Quotes abysmally ignorant and deluded Thunderbolts cult lies.
There are no electric discharges on comet nuclei so no delusions of "electrical machining".
The vast cloud of dust from the comet does match the sublimating ices model, i.e. sublimating ices create dust jets that put dust into the coma. Which leads to:
4 August 2017 Sol88: Implies abysmal ignorance about the papers he cites which are not about dust jets.
[URL="https://arxiv.org/abs/1506.08545"]What drives the dust activity of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko? by B. Gundlach, J. Blum, H. U. Keller, Y. V. Skorov (June 2015)
Is near-surface ice the driver of dust activity on 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko by Skorov, Rezac, Hartogh and Keller (2017).
These papers have models of the interaction between a layer of dust and the underlying ices. The dust activity is dust lifting throughout the interface between the dust and ices.

Reality Check · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88: We can rule in your delusion about comets being rock leading to lies

Sol88 said:
Well you can rule out the struck thru explanations!

4 August 2017 Sol88: We can rule in your delusion about comets being rock leading to lies by altering a paper abstract.
Simulation of the electrostatic charging of Philae on 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko and of its interaction with the dusts

ROSETTA's probe Philae landed on a dust covered soil. This dust may be ejected from the ground through many mechanisms (other than spacecraft landing) : micro-meteorite impacts, electrostatic charging and soil outgassing. In any cases, the dust grains charge electrostatically in the ambient plasma and this charge impacts the dust interaction with the spacecraft, which is itself differentially charged due to its partial exposure to the solar UV light. Using the DUST addition to the Spacecraft-Plasma Interaction Software (SPIS) routinely used to compute the charge state of the spacecraft surfaces, we simulate the electrostatic charging of Philae as well as its dust environment. SPIS-DUST allows one to compute the electrostatic charging of the dust grains on the ground and in the plasma, and to model their ejection and their recollection by the probe. We simulated one cometary day of the Philae environment at different distances from the sun to observe the variation of the dust collection with Philae's local time.

All comets are made of a mixture of ices and dust. That mixture can emit dust through many mechanisms.

micro-meteorite impacts literally knocking dust grains out of the ices/dust mixture onto the surface.
electrostatic charging of the dust grains pushing them out of the ices/dust mixture onto the surface.
soil outgassing removing ices from the ices/dust mixture to leave the grains exposed on the surface.
soil outgassing pushing dust grains from the ices/dust mixture onto the surface.

Reality Check · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88: The delusion that "consolidated materials" means rock blasted from the Earth

Sol88 said:
Are we able to call "consolidated materials" ROCK?

Not to support your delusion that comets are ROCK with this ROCK blasted from the Earth turning the surface into a sea of lave in recent times.
4 August 2017 Sol88: The delusion that "consolidated materials" means rock blasted from the Earth to form comets in recent times.
Characterization of the Abydos landing site of Philae on comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko (PDF) uses the rational definition of "consolidated materials" in the context of comets - ices and dust that have consolidated into a cohesive material.

Reality Check · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88: The insanity of labeling working solar physics as beating a dead horse

Sol88 said:
and just for s..ts n giggles

Ignorant parroting of the Thunderbolts cult dogma is never funny. This may be the "Sun is "not powered by thermonuclear reactions at the core" stupidity we saw in the EU2017 conference web page.

4 August 2017 Sol88: The insanity of labeling working solar physics as beating a dead horse after his 8 years of beating his dead, ignorant, deluded horse of comets are rock!

4 August 2017 Sol88: A lie by highlighting a phrase in a quote and ignoring that the entire article is about making sense of the heating of the solar corona.
New clue to solving the mystery of the Sun's hot atmosphere

The elemental composition of the Sun's hot atmosphere known as the 'corona' is strongly linked to the 11-year solar magnetic activity cycle, a team of scientists from UCL, George Mason University and Naval Research Laboratory has revealed for the first time.

The study, published in Nature Communications and funded by the NASA Hinode program, shows that an increase in magnetic activity goes hand in hand with an increase of certain elements, such as Iron, in the solar corona. It is thought that the results could have significant implications for understanding the process leading to the heating of the Sun's corona.

Reality Check · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88: The "stupid thing" is repeating a lie about a A’Hearn quote

Sol88 said:
Why would he say such a stupid thing?

4 August 2017 Sol88: The "stupid thing" is repeating a lie again about a A’Hearn quote being about your delusions that comets are rock.
For a start I will document the repeated lie yet again for everyone in the world to read for the lifetime of the Internet!
6 July 2017 Sol88: Makes an implied lie into an explicit lie. Michael F. A’Hearn never stated that comets are rocks as in your delusion.

The quote is Michael F. A’Hearn explicating stating that comets are made of ices and refractory (rock) material:

...envisioned cometary nuclei as mostly ice, although our understanding has been evolving more toward mostly rock, particularly for 67P/C-G for which refractory/volatile ratios as high as 6 have been cited

You are insulting Michael F. A’Hearn by implying that he is ignorant and deluded enough that comets are rocks.

Reality Check · Aug 3, 2017

Sol88: Denies the uselessness of his delusion that comets are rock

Sol88 said:
Looks like you've got yourself a conundrum!

4 August 2017 Sol88: Denies the uselessness of his delusion that comets are rocks by ignoring the question.

4 August 2017 Sol88: How is electric woo is turning granite, for instance, into fluffy dust with a density of ~ 1kg/m?
And
4 August 2017 Sol88: How is electric woo is turning granite, for instance, into fluffy dust that is not granite?
Stardust and Rosetta did not collect any grains of granite.
Stardust and Rosetta did not collect any grains of basalt.
Stardust and Rosetta did not collect any grains of limestone.
Stardust and Rosetta did not collect any grains of sandstone.

But we have deafening silence emphasizing the complete ignorance of science behind the comets are rocks delusion:
11 July 2017 Sol88: What did your comets are rocks delusion predict abut the observation of cold and warm electrons at 67P?
6 July 2017 Sol88: What does a rotating charged body do (so far a display of complete ignorance of basic electromagnetism!)?
7 July 2017 Sol88: What did your comets are rocks delusion predict about the impact of Rosetta on 67P?
27 July 2017 Sol88: Did the Stardust mission sample the subsurface composition of comet Wild 2?
27 July 2017 Sol88: Where is the EU prediction of subsurface composition in the "Subsurface composition" paragraph or linked web page?
27 July 2017 Sol88: What does a deluded denial of the formation of the Solar System have to do with the EU subsurface composition of comets

Dancing David · Aug 4, 2017

jonesdave116 said:
List of unanswered questions, just from the last few posts:
What was the white stuff around Hartley 2?
Why were Wally's electrical jets composed of cold CO₂?
What was the size of the crater at Tempel 1? Is that consistent with rock?
Why didn't MIRO or CONSERT detect any rock?
Why was no EDM (lol) detected?

You might want to try and answer those, because whatever argument you are making is killed stone dead by the answers to them.

Add to that the other questions Sol88 can't answer

1. Why don't Apollo bodies have comas?
2. Why do only five of the asteroid belt object shows comas, even though hundreds of other asteroid belt objects go through exactly the same space and orbits?

Merged The Electric Comet Theory Part III/SAFIRE

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