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Old 23rd August 2017, 04:11 PM   #1481
The Sparrow
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
....

- Anyway, I then suggested that if we were able to duplicate the brain --
and the self along with it, while the first brain was still living -- the self would be looking out two sets of eyes. I was still trying to make sure that we were all talking about the same experience.
- My conclusion is that the self to which most of us are referring would be occupying -- received by -- two different brains, and be looking out two sets of eyes.......
What a truly bizarre thing to posit.

Besides WANTING it to be true, have you any, you know, evidence that the brain is a radio? And why have we wasted 1000 posts since the last time you said the brain is a radio?

Oh well, at least you sort of answered the question about dual observers and now we know what current unfalsifiable you are clinging to.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 04:12 PM   #1482
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I was trying to make sure that we were talking about the same thing/process as we discussed the "self."
It isn't a thing so we aren't referring to the same thing. Are you talking about the process?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 04:16 PM   #1483
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I was trying to make sure that we were talking about the same thing/process as we discussed the "self." [ SNIP!]
You keep saying this year after year after year, but nobody agrees with you.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 04:55 PM   #1484
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I was trying to make sure that we were talking about the same thing/process as we discussed the "self."

Why do you use the phrase "thing/process"?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 05:05 PM   #1485
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Why do you use the phrase "thing/process"?
It facilitates the equivocation.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 05:13 PM   #1486
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I was trying to make sure that we were talking about the same thing/process as we discussed the "self."
Bull. Please stop treating us like we're stupid Jabba. You are trying to play with and massage the language into tricking someone to make some surface level agreement or concession to your nonsense so you can go back to this mythological "Neutral Audience" and use it as proof that your "Patented Debate Method" defeated a bunch of big mean skeptics.

*Very slowly in the vain hope it will sink in* We're not here to help you write the dialog for your self insert fan fiction Jabba.

You have an obsessive, pathological need (far, far beyond the simple and understandable universal human desire to just be right) to create a some elaborate fantasy world for yourself where you are demonstrably right about this mishmash of religious nothing you've latched onto and you are expecting us to help you by letting you direct us as if we were actors in a skit.

We will not do it. We know what you are doing and what you are trying to do.

I've said it before Jabba if this idea of a... story where you beat the big mean skeptics is so bloody important to you, just make the whole thing up and lie to yourself that it is true. It would actually be more intellectually honest and socially polite than the stupid game you are clumsy trying to play with us here.

Quote:
I'd better leave it at that -- for now, at least.
WHY!? What in you repeating the same rambling nonsense for the 245 billionth time requires a rest period for either you or us?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 05:13 PM   #1487
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When someone says they conclude the brain is a radio, I believe 'conclude' means some sort of evidence has been analysed and studied to lead one to that conclusion.

Jabba, we all eagerly await you presenting evidence that the brain is a radio, receiving the transmission of your soul..............from somewhere.

We are also curious of the science behind you saying that cloning a brain would result in the soul being picked up by 2 receivers. This would seem to imply that the physical substance of the brain, you know, its particular combination of chemicals and matter, cause it to be tuned into receive a particular soul broadcast, and that soul only.

I'd also like to hear the process how this happens.
So are there like 100 billion souls in waiting, then, randomly, a brain comes into existence that is tuned (ahead of time???) to pick up a particular soul ?

Was that particular brain biology targetted already to that frequency of soul? How does this all work? Is it random? So some souls never have the luck of being tuned into by a brain? Do other souls get picked up multiple times. When someone is reincarnated, is that because the new body's brain is identical to the old body's brain and therefore can tune into the same soul? How is it that the brain is identical but the rest of the body is not?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 05:41 PM   #1488
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
How do you expect him to win the debate unless he can lay out all the ground rules and instruct his critics what points they'll be defending? It's almost like you don't want the playwright to control the plot of the play and designate how each of the characters in it are going to behave?
I knew we should have ask for final script approval before agreeing to these roles.

I never thought we'd have a thread that required stunt doubles.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 05:43 PM   #1489
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I was trying to make sure that we were talking about the same thing/process as we discussed the "self."

That depends. Is this argument/recap of the musical episode of "Once Upon A Time" really your best try/description of your wife?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 05:45 PM   #1490
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
That depends. Is this argument/recap of the musical episode of "Once Upon A Time" really your best try/description of your wife?
--LL, good question. I need a nap.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:38 PM   #1491
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I've said it before Jabba if this idea of a... story where you beat the big mean skeptics is so bloody important to you, just make the whole thing up and lie to yourself that it is true. It would actually be more intellectually honest and socially polite than the stupid game you are clumsy trying to play with us here.
It'd also save a lot of time for everyone, jabba included.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:47 PM   #1492
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
It facilitates the equivocation.
You beat me to it.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 09:16 PM   #1493
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
When someone says they conclude the brain is a radio, I believe 'conclude' means some sort of evidence has been analysed and studied to lead one to that conclusion.

Jabba, we all eagerly await you presenting evidence that the brain is a radio, receiving the transmission of your soul..............from somewhere.

We are also curious of the science behind you saying that cloning a brain would result in the soul being picked up by 2 receivers. This would seem to imply that the physical substance of the brain, you know, its particular combination of chemicals and matter, cause it to be tuned into receive a particular soul broadcast, and that soul only.

Jabba probably realizes that this can't possibly be true, which is why he is constantly dodging the question regarding whether or not identical twins are one soul peering at the world through two sets of eyes.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 09:31 PM   #1494
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Jabba probably realizes that this can't possibly be true, which is why he is constantly dodging the question regarding whether or not identical twins are one soul peering at the world through two sets of eyes.
I'd like to hear that too.

I can ask my twin daughters if it's true.
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Old 24th August 2017, 05:41 AM   #1495
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
How would this look if H was the hypothesis that you have an immortal "self"?
Mojo,
- P(~H|E)=1.00
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Old 24th August 2017, 05:46 AM   #1496
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
How would this look if H was the hypothesis that you have an immortal "self"?
Mojo,
- P(~H|E)=1.00

That means that since you exist, the hypothesis that you have an immortal "self" is wrong.
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:07 AM   #1497
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That means that since you exist, the hypothesis that you have an immortal "self" is wrong.
I don't think it says anything whatsoever about an immortal "self", actually. All Jabba's ever even tried to prove is that the materialist hypothesis is highly unlikely given that he exists. He's never even scratched the surface of why ~H necessarily has anything to do with immortality, so far as I can recall.

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Old 24th August 2017, 06:12 AM   #1498
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I was trying to make sure that we were talking about the same thing/process as we discussed the "self." First, I said that it's the thing/process that reincarnationists think comes back to life. I'm pretty sure that we all know what that experience is -- we just disagree with each other about its nature.

- From http://www.dictionary.com/browse/self:
Philosophy.
the ego; that which knows, remembers, desires, suffers, etc., as contrasted with that known, remembered, etc.

the uniting principle, as a soul, underlying all subjective experience.
- (Note that the dictionary version doesn't just say "soul" -- it says, "as a soul.")

- Anyway, I then suggested that if we were able to duplicate the brain --
and the self along with it, while the first brain was still living -- the self would be looking out two sets of eyes. I was still trying to make sure that we were all talking about the same experience.
- My conclusion is that the self to which most of us are referring would be occupying -- received by -- two different brains, and be looking out two sets of eyes...
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
My question is: how did you reach that conclusion?
- Try a new word. The same "PERCEIVER" would be in both brains.
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:14 AM   #1499
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Try a new word. The same "PERCEIVER" would be in both brains.
You're not talking about H anymore. Have you given up on demonstrating that H is unlikely? You're all over the place.

And you haven't answered my previous question. Stop ignoring the hard points.
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:15 AM   #1500
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Try a new word. The same "PERCEIVER" would be in both brains.
The word isn't the issue.

What led you to the conclusion that one thing would be in two places at once?
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:16 AM   #1501
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Try a new word. The same "PERCEIVER" would be in both brains.
This is really simple. Let's say I have my buddy Jim sitting next to me. I use my cloning machine to produce a perfect copy of him, molecule for molecule. We'll call the two individuals Jim1 and Jim2.

I whisper a secret in Jim1's ear. Does Jim2 know the secret?
I put a blindfold on Jim1. Can he see, since Jim2's eyes are open?
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:23 AM   #1502
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Try a new word. The same "PERCEIVER" would be in both brains.
Your reasoning is to play word games?
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:26 AM   #1503
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
This is really simple. Let's say I have my buddy Jim sitting next to me. I use my cloning machine to produce a perfect copy of him, molecule for molecule. We'll call the two individuals Jim1 and Jim2.

I whisper a secret in Jim1's ear. Does Jim2 know the secret?
I put a blindfold on Jim1. Can he see, since Jim2's eyes are open?
I'm thinking that if Jim2 gets on a spaceship, we've got the makings of an instantaneous interstellar communicator here.

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Old 24th August 2017, 06:36 AM   #1504
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- Anyway, for now, for me, "perceiver" seems like the best word for describing, for pointing out, the "self."
- My claim is that H and ~H are referring to the same experience of "self" -- they just claim different models -- which is what the debate is about, and what the formula addresses.
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:40 AM   #1505
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway, for now, for me, "perceiver" seems like the best word for describing, for pointing out, the "self."
You can call it the "banana" if you want. It's still the same damned concept.

Quote:
- My claim is that H and ~H are referring to the same experience of "self" -- they just claim different models -- which is what the debate is about, and what the formula addresses.
We've known that since the very beginning of this thread. You're telling us nothing new. Stop going back to square one and move along! Stop defining terms, picking words and axioms, and seeking to agree on the starting conditions of the debate after five years. Get on with your demonstration.
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:47 AM   #1506
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway, for now, for me, "perceiver" seems like the best word for describing, for pointing out, the "self."

- My claim is that H and ~H are referring to the same experience of "self" -- they just claim different models -- which is what the debate is about, and what the formula addresses.

Except that your version of the formula doesn't do that.

You assume the soul/thing/perceiver in both H and ~H.

You cannot figure P(E/H) with any assumptions that aren't in H to start with.

That's what you are doing, and it makes the output of your formula utterly nonsensical.
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:49 AM   #1507
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway, for now, for me, "perceiver" seems like the best word for describing, for pointing out, the "self."
- My claim is that H and ~H are referring to the same experience of "self" -- they just claim different models -- which is what the debate is about, and what the formula addresses.
So they're both referring to a process? Ok, proceed from there.
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:51 AM   #1508
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway, for now, for me, "perceiver" seems like the best word for describing, for pointing out, the "self."
See if you can pile some more ambiguity in that statement. There's a still a glimmer of meaning in it.

You can make up whatever you want for your theory. However, in materialism -- the model you say you're trying to refute -- self-awareness is a property of a functioning brain. There is no need to make up new words to describe that. The words your critics are using work just fine. Kindly adhere to their terminology when talking about their model.

Quote:
My claim is that H and ~H are referring to the same experience of "self" -- they just claim different models -- which is what the debate is about, and what the formula addresses.
Good. Now here's a list of what's wrong with your argument and how you're misusing the formula. Please, for each of these fatal flaws in your proof, write a few sentences describing how you plan to fix your proof so that it doesn't commit these errors.
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:53 AM   #1509
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway, for now, for me, "perceiver" seems like the best word for describing, for pointing out, the "self."
- My claim is that H and ~H are referring to the same experience of "self" -- they just claim different models -- which is what the debate is about, and what the formula addresses.
So in the formula, H is a model where the "perceiver" cannot be in two places at once, right?
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Old 24th August 2017, 06:59 AM   #1510
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
So in the formula, H is a model where the "perceiver" cannot be in two places at once, right?
Which, let's not forget, does not include alternative non-materialist hypotheses in which the "perceiver" cannot be in two places at once - or, of course, non-materialist hypotheses in which each "perceiver" has only one finite term of existence at most. The latter would all have to be included in ~H, which is yet another fatal flaw of this approach.

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Old 24th August 2017, 07:04 AM   #1511
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway, for now, for me, "perceiver" seems like the best word for describing, for pointing out, the "self."
- My claim is that H and ~H are referring to the same experience of "self" -- they just claim different models -- which is what the debate is about, and what the formula addresses.

Just use the word soul. Everyone knows what you mean, and that you are simply begging the question. Desperately casting about for a sciencey sounding word doesn't help your argument.
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Old 24th August 2017, 07:25 AM   #1512
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Was that particular brain biology targetted already to that frequency of soul? How does this all work? Is it random? So some souls never have the luck of being tuned into by a brain? Do other souls get picked up multiple times. When someone is reincarnated, is that because the new body's brain is identical to the old body's brain and therefore can tune into the same soul? How is it that the brain is identical but the rest of the body is not?
No, it's worse than that:

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- What I really think/suspect is that consciousness exists and is infinitely divisible.
- I think that for all the reasons I've already given. One of those reasons is that there are many more selves now than there used to be. In other words, Napoleon might currently exist in more than one person.
Which explains why I'm seeing my computer out of one eye and a cafe in Paris out of the other. I'm tuned into part of someone else's soul.
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Old 24th August 2017, 07:26 AM   #1513
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Feels like I've spent my whole life on this discussion.
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Old 24th August 2017, 07:31 AM   #1514
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway, for now, for me, "perceiver" seems like the best word for describing, for pointing out, the "self."
- My claim is that H and ~H are referring to the same experience of "self" -- they just claim different models -- which is what the debate is about, and what the formula addresses.
No, the debate is about you claiming to be able to prove immortality via Bayesian statistics. Since you have shown that the materialistic model is far more likely than your made up model, you have lost. Badly.
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Old 24th August 2017, 07:34 AM   #1515
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
No, the debate is about you claiming to be able to prove immortality via Bayesian statistics. Since you have shown that the materialistic model is far more likely than your made up model, you have lost. Badly.
Thing is, it doesn't matter how unlikely H is. ~H is not a single hypothesis, and without the ability to distinguish its constituents jabba is unable to determine their likelihood relative to H, and cannot draw any conclusion.

No matter how jabba handles this his methods and definitions defeat his claims without us having to lift a finger.
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Old 24th August 2017, 07:43 AM   #1516
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Thing is, it doesn't matter how unlikely H is. ~H is not a single hypothesis, and without the ability to distinguish its constituents jabba is unable to determine their likelihood relative to H, and cannot draw any conclusion.

No matter how jabba handles this his methods and definitions defeat his claims without us having to lift a finger.
Sure, but now that he's admitted that his H has nothing to do with the scientific model, he's just arguing against his own straw man. At this point (yes, yes, at any point!) any other discussion with him is pointless.
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Old 24th August 2017, 08:31 AM   #1517
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
So in the formula, H is a model where the "perceiver" cannot be in two places at once, right?
- Yes.
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Old 24th August 2017, 08:51 AM   #1518
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Try a new word. The same "PERCEIVER" would be in both brains.
No. You don't get to rename your nonsense again in the same sad, transparent attempt to get us to agree with it.

Stop renaming your nonsense Jabba.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Feels like I've spent my whole life on this discussion.
The far future. A family is sitting in their living room around a roaring fire. The father is in his chair, smoking a pipe and sipping brandy. The mother rocks in her chair, doing needlepoint. Their young son sits on the floor, carefully writing line after line in a notebook, a look of dedicated concentration on his face. The grandfather clock ticks off the seconds in time with the soft squeak of mother's rocking chair and the constant scratch-scratch of the boy's pencil on his notebook.

"Father" the boy says finally "I have finished my homework. I've given 3 examples that counter Jabba's subnetted argument #2,456, and shown my work."

He shows his notebook to his father who smiles. "Very well done son. This is excellent work. Now go wash up before bed." The father stands up, stretching his legs, tousles the boy's hair and walks over to fireplace, brandy in hand.

"Yes father" the boy says and he turns to go to bed.... but stops.

"Father..." he says slowly. "One of my classmates at recess today told me something and... I don't believe him. He said that school used to have topics other than Jabba's Immortality Theorem...."

Instantly the room stops as if even the atom are scared to move. The temperature in the room seems to drop ten degrees. Mother's rocking chair stops with one last squeak. The needlepoint drops to mother's lap, immediately forgotten as a soft gasp, half fear and half shock escapes her lips. At the fireplace father's face has gone ashen and pale, his eyes locked in a thousand yard stare. The brandy glass, forgotten, slides from his fingers and falls, shattering as it strikes the stone edge of the fireplace.

For a second, a second that lasts far longer than it has any right to, nobody speaks. Nobody moves. The grandfather clocks ticks out a second. The boy is afraid and confused, he's never seen his parents react in such a way.

"Father... did I say something wrong?" the boy manages, forcing the words into the silence.

The father gulps once, his Adam's apple bobbing, and than again. Finally he forces a smile to his lips, a smile that fools no one, and speaks.

"No my son. I had just hoped... well I just hoped I would have a few more years before you asked that question. Come son, sit down. I believe it is time we had a talk."

"No!" The mother's words are out of her mouth before she can stop them. "He is not old enough, he will not understand!"

The husband reaches over and brushes a strand of hair away from his wive's eyes. He looks at her, lovingly. "He has to learn the truth somehow my wife. Best he learn it from us."

The wife says nothing, but nods. She takes her husbands hand and squeezes it. The look into each other's eyes. They share a moment they both need right now.

The father walks over, takes two glasses from his liquor cabinet and pours a full glass and downs it to calm his nerves, than pours half glass of brandy for himself, far more than he would ever drink on a normal night even without the glass he already had, and a second tiny serving. He hands his son the second glass. The boy looks at it.

"Go on. If you're man enough to understand what I'm about to tell you than you deserve your first man's drink. Sit down son we will be up for a while. For it is time I told you about what happened. What life was like... in the before time."

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Thing is, it doesn't matter how unlikely H is. ~H is not a single hypothesis, and without the ability to distinguish its constituents jabba is unable to determine their likelihood relative to H, and cannot draw any conclusion.
We really do need to stop entertaining these "equations." There as much nonsense as anything else he's saying and just another form of word games.
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Last edited by JoeBentley; 24th August 2017 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 24th August 2017, 09:18 AM   #1519
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
The far future. A family is sitting in their living room around a roaring fire. The father is in his chair, smoking a pipe and sipping brandy. The mother rocks in her chair, doing needlepoint. Their young son sits on the floor, carefully writing line after line in a notebook, a look of dedicated concentration on his face. The grandfather clock ticks off the seconds in time with the soft squeak of mother's rocking chair and the constant scratch-scratch of the boy's pencil on his notebook.

"Father" the boy says finally "I have finished my homework. I've given 3 examples that counter Jabba's subnetted argument #2,456, and shown my work."

He shows his notebook to his father who smiles. "Very well done son. This is excellent work. Now go wash up before bed." The father stands up, stretching his legs, tousles the boy's hair and walks over to fireplace, brandy in hand.

"Yes father" the boy says and he turns to go to bed.... but stops.

"Father..." he says slowly. "One of my classmates at recess today told me something and... I don't believe him. He said that school used to have topics other than Jabba's Immortality Theorem...."

Instantly the room stops as if even the atom are scared to move. The temperature in the room seems to drop ten degrees. Mother's rocking chair stops with one last squeak. The needlepoint drops to mother's lap, immediately forgotten as a soft gasp, half fear and half shock escapes her lips. At the fireplace father's face has gone ashen and pale, his eyes locked in a thousand yard stare. The brandy glass, forgotten, slides from his fingers and falls, shattering as it strikes the stone edge of the fireplace.

For a second, a second that lasts far longer than it has any right to, nobody speaks. Nobody moves. The grandfather clocks ticks out a second. The boy is afraid and confused, he's never seen his parents react in such a way.

"Father... did I say something wrong?" the boy manages, forcing the words into the silence.

The father gulps once, his Adam's apple bobbing, and than again. Finally he forces a smile to his lips, a smile that fools no one, and speaks.

"No my son. I had just hoped... well I just hoped I would have a few more years before you asked that question. Come son, sit down. I believe it is time we had a talk."

"No!" The mother's words are out of her mouth before she can stop them. "He is not old enough, he will not understand!"

The husband reaches over and brushes a strand of hair away from his wive's eyes. He looks at her, lovingly. "He has to learn the truth somehow my wife. Best he learn it from us."

The wife says nothing, but nods. She takes her husbands hand and squeezes it. The look into each other's eyes. They share a moment the both need right now.

The father walks over, takes two glasses from his liquor cabinet and pours a full glass and downs it to calm his nerves, than pours half glass of brandy for himself, far more than he would ever drink on a normal night even without the glass he already had, and a second tiny serving. He hands his son the second glass. The boy looks at it.

"Go on. If you're man enough to understand what I'm about to tell you than you deserve your first man's drink. Sit down son we will be up for a while. For it is time I told you about what happened. What life was like... in the before time."
I love you.
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Old 24th August 2017, 10:15 AM   #1520
jond
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
The far future. A family is sitting in their living room around a roaring fire. The father is in his chair, smoking a pipe and sipping brandy. The mother rocks in her chair, doing needlepoint. Their young son sits on the floor, carefully writing line after line in a notebook, a look of dedicated concentration on his face. The grandfather clock ticks off the seconds in time with the soft squeak of mother's rocking chair and the constant scratch-scratch of the boy's pencil on his notebook.

"Father" the boy says finally "I have finished my homework. I've given 3 examples that counter Jabba's subnetted argument #2,456, and shown my work."

He shows his notebook to his father who smiles. "Very well done son. This is excellent work. Now go wash up before bed." The father stands up, stretching his legs, tousles the boy's hair and walks over to fireplace, brandy in hand.

"Yes father" the boy says and he turns to go to bed.... but stops.

"Father..." he says slowly. "One of my classmates at recess today told me something and... I don't believe him. He said that school used to have topics other than Jabba's Immortality Theorem...."

Instantly the room stops as if even the atom are scared to move. The temperature in the room seems to drop ten degrees. Mother's rocking chair stops with one last squeak. The needlepoint drops to mother's lap, immediately forgotten as a soft gasp, half fear and half shock escapes her lips. At the fireplace father's face has gone ashen and pale, his eyes locked in a thousand yard stare. The brandy glass, forgotten, slides from his fingers and falls, shattering as it strikes the stone edge of the fireplace.

For a second, a second that lasts far longer than it has any right to, nobody speaks. Nobody moves. The grandfather clocks ticks out a second. The boy is afraid and confused, he's never seen his parents react in such a way.

"Father... did I say something wrong?" the boy manages, forcing the words into the silence.

The father gulps once, his Adam's apple bobbing, and than again. Finally he forces a smile to his lips, a smile that fools no one, and speaks.

"No my son. I had just hoped... well I just hoped I would have a few more years before you asked that question. Come son, sit down. I believe it is time we had a talk."

"No!" The mother's words are out of her mouth before she can stop them. "He is not old enough, he will not understand!"

The husband reaches over and brushes a strand of hair away from his wive's eyes. He looks at her, lovingly. "He has to learn the truth somehow my wife. Best he learn it from us."

The wife says nothing, but nods. She takes her husbands hand and squeezes it. The look into each other's eyes. They share a moment they both need right now.

The father walks over, takes two glasses from his liquor cabinet and pours a full glass and downs it to calm his nerves, than pours half glass of brandy for himself, far more than he would ever drink on a normal night even without the glass he already had, and a second tiny serving. He hands his son the second glass. The boy looks at it.

"Go on. If you're man enough to understand what I'm about to tell you than you deserve your first man's drink. Sit down son we will be up for a while. For it is time I told you about what happened. What life was like... in the before time."
Bravo!!!
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