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Old 9th May 2018, 05:13 PM   #1521
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And my point is when people start trying to put those differences into action, people are going to have a "big" problem with it.

Everything a biological man who identifies/is/lives as a woman gets to do differently because of that distinction is something that can be used with exact equal validity to argue that cis-men shouldn't be able to do that because it's a "woman" thing.

Again I just don't think "bringing the gender differences back" is really a genie people are as willing to let out of the bottle as they are claiming to be.

Everybody has this perfect little fantasy world in their heads where all these distinctions the separate the cis from the trans only get used in that context and nowhere else.

And again because this is just such a 180 from how we were being told things "had" to be a few years ago. Applying a bunch of attributes to the genders used to be a bad thing. "The" bad thing in fact when it came to gender roles. Men and women having to do or be things beyond basic immutable facts of biology used to be bad. Now it's all the cards have been thrown back on the table.

You aren't even pretending to try to understand what is being said now.

What proscribed 'actions' exactly do you think are being argued for?


Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Of course they are, they are indicators as to someone's sex. For the same reason that a resumé from someone named Abdullah will be discriminated against because it is an indicator of ethnicity. Now how about you support your claim instead of boring us with obvious and irrelevant trivialities?

Already did, click the links. They cite their sources too.

And the facts I cited are not irrelevant; they negate your argument.
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Old 9th May 2018, 05:17 PM   #1522
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Already did, click the links. They cite their sources too.
I have, here is what your source says:
Quote:
Two versions of the resume were produced that varied in only one, very significant, detail: the name at the top. One applicant was named Jennifer and the other John.
The resume did hence not include the applicant divulging their gender so there's no basis for assuming that to be the determinant factor, all that was varied was whether the name correlates with males or females. So I repeat: how about you support your claim?

Quote:
And the facts I cited are not irrelevant; they negate your argument.
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Old 9th May 2018, 05:21 PM   #1523
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I have, here is what your source says:


The resume did hence not include the applicant divulging their gender so there's no basis for assuming that to be the determinant factor, all that was varied was whether the name correlates with males or females. So I repeat: how about you support your claim?




That wasn't my only cite, that wasn't the only study from that cite, and your objection that it would be solved by not being allowed to disclose one's gender is completely negated by even female sounding names being discriminated against as well.
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Old 9th May 2018, 05:29 PM   #1524
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The question was what they have in common, the answer has to do with how they move through society.
I question the premise of someone who can move through society as a man, choosing to move through society as a woman instead.
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Old 9th May 2018, 05:33 PM   #1525
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That wasn't my only cite, that wasn't the only study from that cite
Feel free to quote something. Until then your claim stands unsupported.

Quote:
your objection that it would be solved by not being allowed to disclose one's gender is completely negated by even female sounding names being discriminated against as well.
My actual objection is that your claim is stupid because if it really were their so-called gender identity that is the basis for this discrimination then simply not saying "I identify as X" during an interview would eliminate the discrimination. The patently obvious, of course, is that the basis for this discrimination is sex (it's called sexism for a reason) and that a man would still be more likely to get the job even if he never divulges his gender identity during the interview but merely based on his sex (or what is assumed to be his sex as determined by considering a name which strongly correlates with the male sex).

You've also ignored my other point. Until you provide a better definition, gender is the social and cultural differences associated with being male or female. As such, being either kept out of or pulled into tech or arts fields based on being male or female is an instance of gender, so why would you deny both men and women their gender?
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Old 9th May 2018, 05:54 PM   #1526
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I question the premise of someone who can move through society as a man, choosing to move through society as a woman instead.
Why do you assume it is a premise (i.e. a matter of fact) rather than a question of value? I assume that you mind the gap between fact and value, yeah? #mindthegap
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Old 9th May 2018, 06:01 PM   #1527
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Your definition of premise is wildly different from mine.
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Old 9th May 2018, 06:19 PM   #1528
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Your definition of premise is wildly different from mine.
Thanks for clearing that right up.
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Old 9th May 2018, 06:19 PM   #1529
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Feel free to quote something. Until then your claim stands unsupported.

"Two versions of the resume were produced that varied in only one, very significant, detail: the name at the top. One applicant was named Jennifer and the other John."

Notice the only difference is the name. Not the gender identity nor the sex. Just the name.

Quote:
My actual objection is that your claim is stupid because if it really were their so-called gender identity that is the basis for this discrimination then simply not saying "I identify as X" during an interview would eliminate the discrimination.
No, it wouldn't. There is no reason to believe that, as it simply does not follow from any of the real world data.


Quote:
The patently obvious, of course, is that the basis for this discrimination is sex (it's called sexism for a reason) and that a man would still be more likely to get the job even if he never divulges his gender identity during the interview but merely based on his sex (or what is assumed to be his sex as determined by considering a name which strongly correlates with the male sex).

You've also ignored my other point. Until you provide a better definition, gender is the social and cultural differences associated with being male or female. As such, being either kept out of or pulled into tech or arts fields based on being male or female is an instance of gender, so why would you deny both men and women their gender?

And gender identity? What is your definition of that? Why does your semantic gymnastics mean anything here?

You too are taking my claims to mean something they don't mean. There is no evidence that being discriminated against in STEM hiring is a validating part of gender identity nor necessary for gender on even an abstract level. By your wording, fighting against any sexism is in fact denying gender. This indicates a fatal flaw with your definitions, not with anyone else's.
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Old 9th May 2018, 06:24 PM   #1530
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Thought that was pretty obvious

They aren't
That's your assertion. Not everybody agrees with it. I don't agree with it.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post

So chucking "cis" in has no real purpose
Except when it does? I find the term very useful when I'm talking about trans issues.
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Old 9th May 2018, 06:37 PM   #1531
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Thanks for clearing that right up.
It was always clear to me.
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Old 9th May 2018, 06:41 PM   #1532
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It was always clear to me.
At least one of us knows what you mean by "premise" so that's good, I suppose.
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Old 9th May 2018, 07:17 PM   #1533
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Honest, no snark, no ulterior motive question.

Do you really see transgenderism as an easier sell than neutral gender roles to the old farts who think women belong barefoot, pregnant and in gingham in the kitchen and that men should fights the wars and work in the fields?

I'm not clear as to how that is even the least bit relevant to what I wrote.

But to answer that totally unrelated question anyway; I think "easier" is a pointless question, because neither one would be palatable to them in any fashion. They would be equally unsalable to that cohort.
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Old 9th May 2018, 07:37 PM   #1534
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I question the premise of someone who can move through society as a man, choosing to move through society as a woman instead.

Are you saying that you don't think it happens? Or are you saying that those who are doing it aren't "choosing" to?

One of the more reasonable arguments against homosexuality being a "choice", back before medical research demonstrated that it isn't, and even the most tolerant of societies made it a criminal act which was punished by prison as well as ostracism, and the worst punished it with death, was that it was very unlikely that the same relative percentage of gays would turn up in all of those different societies, regardless of the damage it did to their families, careers, and odds of imprisonment or execution. That they would choose to take that path.

And they were right. It isn't a choice.

It is clear that transgenderism happens, and people do make just that change in lifestyle and status, and it isn't even a particularly recent phenomenon, with more than a few societies accommodating it without much difficulty or angst. So you can't be questioning the premise that it happens.

I can only conclude that you question the premise that it is a "choice".

And I would agree with that.
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Old 9th May 2018, 07:43 PM   #1535
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
At least one of us knows what you mean by "premise" so that's good, I suppose.
I guess? I don't know if this is the right way to use the word, but this has been how I've always understood it: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/premise

I can see how thinking a premise was a matter of fact would be very confusing, if everybody else generally uses it to mean an assumption that supports a conclusion. Now that you know what I mean by it, do you want to take another stab at a rebuttal?
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Old 9th May 2018, 07:49 PM   #1536
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I question the (proposition supporting or helping to support a conclusion) of someone who can move through society as a man, choosing to move through society as a woman instead.
Which proposition is that, exactly?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Now that you know what I mean by it, do you want to take another stab at a rebuttal?
Just as soon as I detect an argument, that is, premises leading to a clearly defined conclusion, preferably in a logical manner.
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Old 9th May 2018, 08:25 PM   #1537
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which proposition is that, exactly?
You don't remember what we were talking about just a few posts upthread? You have more problems here than I care to try to solve. Good luck!
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Old 9th May 2018, 08:35 PM   #1538
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That some men go trans so they can move through society as women.
It is trivially easy to find examples of such individuals on the internet.

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Old 9th May 2018, 08:41 PM   #1539
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
In that case, yes they are.

Are you sure you understand the objection he is making? He's saying that the differences can't both be important and unimportant while leaving out the key detail of 'important for what'. He's also over-simplifying the clustering of tendencies into 'can identify by'.

I'll show how odd this reasoning and these accusations are. Take the fact that women tend to be significantly shorter than men. Now, someone says this justifies women being hired for programing at a significantly reduced rate to men. You would, rightfully, object that this not only isn't related to programing skill but that there are women who are tall and men who are short. That someone then says that you can't have it both that men are taller than women and that sometimes they are not, and if you can't identify who is a man and who is a woman solely on their height, it must not be a sexually dimorphic trait even though it obviously is. They say that this difference must not matter if it doesn't matter for hiring differences for men and women.

Throw into this something strange about accounting for this tendency in places where it does matter is thus hypocritical, and you have something approaching Joe's argument about progressives and women.
His argument is subtle, but it's coherent.

I'll try it from this angle. Suppose we know each other, and you know I am a man, but then one day I reveal that I am actually a trans-man. Would you treat me differently? No? I assume not. After all, a man's a man, right? The fact that I'm a trans-man instead of a cis-man means nothing to you, right?

So far so good.

Now, though, let's go with a different scenario. We've known each other a long time, but suppose I inform you that you have been mistaken all this time. Oh, sure I have facial hair and a baritone voice and I pee standing up (we work in the same office so you've seen me at the urinal), but it turns out that's all a lie. I self identify as a woman. I've stayed "in the closet" all this time because I didn't think I could "pass", so I just hid my true identity, but now, I want the world to know the truth. I am a woman. I tell the whole office.

By the way, I've worn customarily male clothing all my life and it is comfortable, so I'm going to keep doing that. Now, uhhhh, question. I need to pee. Which bathroom should I use?

Everyone thought I was a man until yesterday, and I look and act exactly the same, but if I go into the men's room, now you know there's a woman in the men's room. That's awkward, isn't it? So, obviously, the ladies room. No problem there. Of course, I'm wearing men's pants, and a man's shirt. I don't have any makeup. I've got 5 oclock shadow, and if anyone happens to peak through the stall door they'll see men's underwear or.......man parts. But I'm a woman, so it shouldn't bother them, should it?

Well, this part calls for speculation, but, being my friend, I'll bet you might offer up some advice. Put on some makeup. Wear a skirt. Shave real close. Act a little girly. If I do those things, the other women would accept me, right? Oh, sure, the bigoted ones won't, but that's their problem, not mine.

What Joe is getting at is that, in the case of trans-people, in order to be accepted as their self-identified gender, they must take on the socially imposed requirements of that gender. Furthermore, if they do that, everyone is expected to accept them at their word for what gender they are, despite the objective evidence available to observers while they change into their swimsuit. The social affectations, such as wearing female swimwear, is more important than the bulge that is visible while wearing it. Suddenly, the affectations imposed by society have become the defining trait of the gender.

That's a bit different from my take on the subject, and I might not be explaining his point very clearly, because I'm trying to find a way to describe it after his own words didn't get through to you, but the gist of it is that we are using the social gender cues as if they were definitive characteristics, but only for trans-people.

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Old 9th May 2018, 09:38 PM   #1540
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
What Joe is getting at is that, in the case of trans-people, in order to be accepted as their self-identified gender, they must take on the socially imposed requirements of that gender. Furthermore, if they do that, everyone is expected to accept them at their word for what gender they are, despite the objective evidence available to observers while they change into their swimsuit. The social affectations, such as wearing female swimwear, is more important than the bulge that is visible while wearing it. Suddenly, the affectations imposed by society have become the defining trait of the gender.

Except I already explained my exact objection to that reasoning many pages back, in response to Joe directly. Several others had the same objection.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No paradox. Society treats genders differently. That's the truth. To acknowledge that truth simply doesn't have the implications you're making. It doesn't mean you are endorsing that treatment. If you think through what I'm saying about treating women as women, does that endorse any specific treatment of women? Is that prescribing having women not wear pants? Of course not.

And those biological differences do exist, and they exist in varying degrees with trans people too.

EDIT: Maybe this is more clear, when I say, 'treat women as women', that means that once we treat women and men equally outside of biological differences, that would still be treating women as women. Nothing about that means not also changing how we treat women, just not to exclude trans women.
The thing is, I've lived through your hypothetical. It does in fact involve discussions about what social expectations, connotations, and privileges are associated with their gender identity. This, inevitably, includes many, many, MANY exasperated acknowledgments that these are overwhelmingly capricious and arbitrary. It's never an endorsement of it. Deciding what elements of that gender the person will now avail themselves of now that they are at liberty (or should be) to do so, with cost/benefit analysis.

This isn't actually all that different from what gender conventions we all choose to buck or follow are arrived at. I have long hair. Down to my ass long hair. I shave my body. Our society says these are womans' conventions, but I follow them despite being a cis man. Many women don't wear makeup or shave their bodies at all, despite those being something society expect of women. Does a trans woman shaving her body and having long hair mean she's endorsing that gender convention, while mine does not? No, like most modern feminists I recognize that women don't have to reject these things just because they are bull conventions.

Now, like I said, I shave my body and have very long hair. I take some **** for that. If it were bothering me that I was getting **** for those things, would you be endorsing society enforcing those gender expectations by identifying those gender expectations? Of course not. It is no different with trans men or trans women.

One large disconnect here is that you, and maybe Joe think I and others are saying it is important that trans women conform to gender expectations, where that doesn't seem to be the case at all. Another is that you think we're arguing that conforming to these gender expectations is what makes one a woman, but that's also not the case.
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Old 9th May 2018, 09:38 PM   #1541
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It is trivially easy to find examples of such individuals on the internet.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1f2e663d76.jpg
And I question their premise. I think they should question it, too.
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Old 9th May 2018, 10:23 PM   #1542
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post



Except when it does? I find the term very useful when I'm talking about trans issues.


I would like to leave cis in the chemistry world, I can live with trans as it is.

You can call me a gynephilic instead of a cis-male.

It's harder to make a slur out of a multisyllabic word.

I'll address anyone in the manner they prefer.
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Old 10th May 2018, 02:16 AM   #1543
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I note that Mycroft insists on calling me."cis" although I have repeatedly told him I find this grossly offensive. And yet if I refer to an obviously male person (who isn't here and can't hear me) as "he", cue a flurry of outraged "How dare you misgenger this incredibly marginalised victim!"

Some serious double standards going on here.
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Old 10th May 2018, 02:41 AM   #1544
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I note that Mycroft insists on calling me."cis" although I have repeatedly told him I find this grossly offensive. And yet if I refer to an obviously male person (who isn't here and can't hear me) as "he", cue a flurry of outraged "How dare you misgenger this incredibly marginalised victim!"

Some serious double standards going on here.
I think their theory is that trans people have a right to be offended by being called things they are sensitive about and must be accommodated by everyone, while every one else doesn't have the right to be offended by being called things they are sensitive about and must be just being precious, irrational and stubborn.

They haven't said transphobic yet, but it is only a matter of time.
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Old 10th May 2018, 03:27 AM   #1545
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Oh, I think they have.

I almost can't read this thread because of the liberal - and in some cases apparently deliberately provocative - use of the offensive term "cis". Also because of the mollycoddling of the autogynaephile bullies, and the handwaving away of their macho bullying as just a tiny minority who can be ignored.

Nobody is disputing that there are decent, respectful trans people who simply want to get on with their lives. However there are also militant autogynaephile activists who are running an organised campaign to bully and marginalise women who won't give in to them. I will not be instructed to give in to the bullies just because some trans people aren't bullies.
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Old 10th May 2018, 03:37 AM   #1546
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
"Two versions of the resume were produced that varied in only one, very significant, detail: the name at the top. One applicant was named Jennifer and the other John."

Notice the only difference is the name. Not the gender identity nor the sex. Just the name.
And so your claim remains unsupported.

Quote:
No, it wouldn't. There is no reason to believe that, as it simply does not follow from any of the real world data.
Yes exactly, there's no reason to believe your claim as it simply does not follow from any of the real world data. The concept of "gender bias" (as per your source) is nonsensical anyway, gender is the bias associated with sex in society, a bias more commonly known as sexism.

Quote:
And gender identity? What is your definition of that?
My definition of gender identity? An ideological belief held by some people who have internalized a certain hierarchical social construct (gender) a bit too much. What is your definition?

Quote:
Why does your semantic gymnastics mean anything here?
Semantic gymnastics has got to be the most ironic accusation. You mean that your arguments fall apart the moment words are actually pinned down to a definition.

Quote:
You too are taking my claims to mean something they don't mean. There is no evidence that being discriminated against in STEM hiring is a validating part of gender identity nor necessary for gender on even an abstract level.
How about you give your definition of gender then if it isn't the usual definition? Because by the usual definition, gender being the social and cultural differences associated with having a certain sex in society, being discriminated for/against in STEM based on one's sex is a perfect example of gender. You can find plenty more examples of gender in my list of questions to Rolfe earlier in the thread.

Quote:
By your wording, fighting against any sexism is in fact denying gender. This indicates a fatal flaw with your definitions, not with anyone else's.
I've just used the common dictionary definition of gender. It's not my fault that your ideology doesn't hold up to scrutiny. And yes, fighting against sexism is fighting against gender, have you ever even read any feminist literature? Outside of the recent pomo nonsense that is, I can recommend you some de Beauvoir or Kollontai here.
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Old 10th May 2018, 03:38 AM   #1547
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Do you really see transgenderism as an easier sell than neutral gender roles to the old farts who think women belong barefoot, pregnant and in gingham in the kitchen and that men should fights the wars and work in the fields?
I don't think anyone is trans as a marketing position so why is that relevant?
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Old 10th May 2018, 03:39 AM   #1548
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And I question their premise. I think they should question it, too.
The premise that a human male is the "female they are"? Yes, quite a questionable premise. Observably false as well.
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Old 10th May 2018, 04:30 AM   #1549
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Interesting article.

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/di...sgender-issue/

Here's another one.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...round-be-found
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Old 10th May 2018, 04:35 AM   #1550
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The premise that a human male is the "female they are"? Yes, quite a questionable premise. Observably false as well.
Whom are you quoting?
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Old 10th May 2018, 04:37 AM   #1551
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Except I already explained my exact objection to that reasoning many pages back, in response to Joe directly. Several others had the same objection.
What? You have already explained your objection and he still disagrees with you? Well, no wonder you're frustrated. Surely such differences can only be explained by

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
what turns out to be straw-men, over simplifications, and false-dichotomies.

Or, maybe, you just have different priorities.

The irony is that I think your underlying philosophical positions are quite close.
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Old 10th May 2018, 05:07 AM   #1552
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And I question their premise. I think they should question it, too.
You question whether she sincerely wants to be accepted as a woman?

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Old 10th May 2018, 06:21 AM   #1553
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post

If we took a random sample from the population, then we'd have almost perfect accuracy in using chromosomal results to predict whether they are male or female, but we'd be doing no better than chance in using brain scans..
Your own link says:

Quote:
If a neuroscientist was given someone’s brain without their body or any additional information, they would still probably be able to guess if it had belonged to a man or a woman.
So, there might be a little something there to lady-brains vs man-brains.
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Old 10th May 2018, 06:28 AM   #1554
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh, I think they have.

I almost can't read this thread because of the liberal - and in some cases apparently deliberately provocative - use of the offensive term "cis". Also because of the mollycoddling of the autogynaephile bullies, and the handwaving away of their macho bullying as just a tiny minority who can be ignored.

Nobody is disputing that there are decent, respectful trans people who simply want to get on with their lives. However there are also militant autogynaephile activists who are running an organised campaign to bully and marginalise women who won't give in to them. I will not be instructed to give in to the bullies just because some trans people aren't bullies.

I think I see the problem.

So, imagine I'm World Dictator. People come to me and say, "O great World Dictator, we are sorely vexed. Because many of us do not want our bits to be seen by others when we use public rest rooms, bathing, and changing facilities."

I reply, "O my people, be not vexed." (I pronounce it with two syllables, "vex ed." Thus demonstrating the proper demeanor for a World Dictator.) "For I decree that wherever such facilities are provided, there shall be provisions for the reasonable concealment of the private bits of those using the facilities for their intended purpose, from others who are also using the same facilities for their intended purpose. No more shall bathrooms consist merely of toilets or urinals or shower heads sitting out on the sidewalk or lined up against one side of the lobby or classroom or restaurant. There shall be surrounding walls. There shall be individual stalls. There shall be doors on the stalls. All these shall be opaque. The law shall mandate their use, so that genitals and bottoms and verily even boobies shall be concealed "

All is well for a short while, but soon, more people come to me and say, "Oh great dictator, thou hast erred. For we find concealing our genitals in every single case whilst using changing, bathing, and bathroom facilities to be a great trial. We don't care if others see our genitals, and we find the need for enough separate rooms or stalls for everyone to be an insurmountable expense, resulting in long queues for the use of the ones available. Furthermore, should need overcome us when concealment is unavailable, we fear prosecution for illegally exposing our bits."

I have to think on this for a while, but eventually I reach a resolution and declaim, "Though it break with previous precedent, I hereby decree that the voluntarily exposure of genitals or bottoms or boobies, in the course of using toilet, bathing, or changing facilities for their intended purposes, shall not be a crime or a tort, regardless of who is subjected to the sight. That is, though everyone has the right to reasonable accommodation to conceal their own bits from casual view, no one has the right to be protected from the sight of anyone else's bits, regardless of said bits' shape. That means that for efficiency and expedience, facilities without individual stalls or other concealing closures can and shall also be provided. By the way, 'no one' means no one. Teach thy children what adult humans look like, and move on."

"But Wise One," some cry, "Thou hast really screwed the pooch this time. For thou hast unwittingly given license to exhibitionists and other perverts, to aggrieve others by flaunting their genitalita unnecessarily for disconcerting effect, or by making lewd gestures, or by uttering sexually harassing commentary, or by engaging in unseemly public autoerotic behavior."

"Wrong-O Bong-O, my loyal subjects," I graciously reply. "Do any of those foul actions constitute using the toilet, changing, or bathing facilities for their intended purposes? I think not. Nor do the police, who shall be ever vigilant against such nasty deeds, which after all are already inscribed as crimes upon our Books of Law."

At that, my beloved people shuffle away, muttering amongst themselves, because they're not really sure they like this course of events, fair and efficient as it might be. The loudest mutterers meet in secret, and finally they appoint a representative to approach me and present their case. The representative is a sweet and modest girl, in the earliest bud of womanhood.

"Oh Mighty One, you seem to have misconstrued what we desired," she says, blushing. "No, not through any fault of yours, of course! It must be that we explained our needs poorly. See, what each of us was actually hoping for was to be able, whilst in the surroundings of closed specialized facilities for bathing, changing, or toileting, to be able to freely display our own private goodies to others whom we deem sufficiently alike to ourselves to permit such sharing, whilst also guaranteeing the concealment of said goodies from all other others whom we deem disgustingly different. Because, well, that would be the ideal balance between comfort and convenience, for me personally. I mean, for all of us—um, personally."

"Ah, I see," I reply. "You want the impossible. Why, such an arrangement fails the moment a need arises for a father to assist his young daughter in using a public rest room, because no one would ever assort the father and the daughter into the same compatible genital-view-sharing group. Let alone the more complex cases of people with disabilities who require caretakers' assistance, or people with mixed or ambiguous gender identity. No, I'm sorry, child, but I have wisely spoken on the matter already."

"But... but...," she stammers tearfully, the prospect of returning news of her failure to the faction that sent her weighing heavily on her heart. "But it USED TO BE that way! We had boys rooms and girls rooms and that was..."

"It only ever seemed to be that way," I interrupt. I am, after all, World Dictator. "And what you are speaking of is known as 'privilege," to which I traditionally respond by requesting the speaker to 'check it.' There's a brochure on the rack by the door, which you can take on your way out."

Alas, I'm not World Dictator, so this will continue to be acrimoniously debated for the next fifty years instead.
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Old 10th May 2018, 06:39 AM   #1555
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You question whether she sincerely wants to be accepted as a woman?

No we question whether they literally are or that we have to conceptualize them in such a way in order to be decent and accepting people.

Yes wanting to be something is inarguable from a third person perspective. It's also completely pointless as a matter of identity or demographics.
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Old 10th May 2018, 06:48 AM   #1556
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No we question whether they literally are or that we have to conceptualize them in such a way in order to be decent and accepting people.
To be decent and accepting, you should treat transwomen just like you would treat women, for basically all everyday purposes. If you don't treat men and women any differently, ever, this shouldn't be a problem at all. If, however, you tend to point men to the men's section of the clothing store or to the men's bathroom, you should probably do that for transmen as well, if you are hoping to be seen as decently accepting of them.
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Old 10th May 2018, 07:10 AM   #1557
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Whom are you quoting?
The assertion in your picture about males (trans women) being the females (women) they are.
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Old 10th May 2018, 07:18 AM   #1558
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You question whether she sincerely wants to be accepted as a woman?

At this point you should probably just go back to my original post and remind yourself what premise I'm actually questioning.
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Old 10th May 2018, 07:21 AM   #1559
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Your own link says:



So, there might be a little something there to lady-brains vs man-brains.
Here's another one which says this:
Quote:
In other words, just by looking at the brain scan, or height, of someone plucked at random from the study, researchers would be hard pressed to say whether it came from a man or woman.
I remember reading an experiment where some neuroscientists were actually given brain scans and asked to classify them according to sex and they were basically doing no better than chance, but a quick google search didn't let me find it again so take it how you will.

Either way, the problem here is that significant doesn't imply informative. Let's assume that, for a particular feature, females are normally distributed with mean 10 and standard deviation 1 and males are normally distributed with mean 10.01 and standard deviation 1. If you look at enough people this difference in the mean will become significant, yet that doesn't mean that, when given the value of the feature for any individual, it is informative in letting you decide whether that individual is male or female. This is different for, say, using chromosomal results in determining the sex of an individual where it isn't just significant but also informative.

Furthermore, at some level it is obvious that male and female brains will differ, the neurons responsible for regulating the reproductive system, for example, must differ. But that's not really what we're talking about, we're talking about the brain as it pertains to gender.
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Old 10th May 2018, 07:36 AM   #1560
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If we consider the brain a vector of N features, which we'll consider random variables normally distributed with possibly differing means and standard deviations according to sex. Then it may well be perfectly true, when looking at a big enough sample, that each of these features has a statistically significant difference between the sexes but that still doesn't mean that an informative classification function exists on the set of brains (ie the set of such vectors of length N) classifying them as male or female. In other words, sexually dimorphic features may exist in the brain, in a certain statistical sense, but that doesn't mean there is such a thing as a male brain or a female brain.
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