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Tags timed out , mdc , healing , challenge application

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Old 4th October 2005, 09:48 AM   #1
KRAMER
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BICH BA DO, QiGong Master

Dear Sir,

My name is Bich Ba Do, President of Taman Bio-Electromagnetic Energy Healing Institute, Inc.

I would like to apply for the status of claimant of One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge.

A. Personal Information.
Male, Born in Vietnam 1942.
Settled in USA as refugee.
Working as pharmacist since 1968.
8 years experience in Energy Medicine as Medical QiGong Master.
Therapeutic Touch Practitioner.
Member of ABMP (Associated Bodywork and Massage Professionals).

B. Supernatural Claims.
I can emit healing energy thru my fingers or palms to reduce or to clear all kinds of PAIN: Carpal Tunnell Syndrome, Migraine Headache, Arthritis, Cancer, Fibromyalgia, body (neck, back, shoulders, nerves etc) even pain not responding to conventional treatments (painkillers, surgeries from Western Medicine, herbal, Acupuncture from Oriental Medicine, Massage from Alternative Medicine).

C. Test Proposal

1. 100% safe for claimant and participants who feel only warm or tingling when I put my hands above pain areas from one inch to few feet away or just light touch with my fingers.

2. No special equipments or location required; can be in living room where participants can sitcomfortable on couch, in meeting room where all people can sit around the table, even at workplace or in restaurants.

3. Judging: the amount of pains reduced by scale 1 to 10 which participants can tell immediately after few seconds to few minutes but not more than half an hour. The claimant also has ability to know approximately how much pain reduced by the same scale.

4. Participants can be mix or match: example five cases of Migraine headache, five cases of Carpal Tunnel syndrome or mixing two cases Migraines 2 cases back's pain, one case of shoulder's pain, etc..

It is my honor to accept your challenge I am waiting for 8 years and I look forward to your reply.

Sincerely Yours,
Bich Ba Do Rph TTP

p.s. I have hearing loss 55 years ago which has worsened recently but I still work with people who come for my help when all other means failed.
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Old 4th October 2005, 10:26 AM   #2
KRAMER
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Dear Mr. Bich Ba Do,

Thank you for submitting an application for the JREF One Million Dollar Challenge. Your paranormal claim has been accepted.

Regarding your test protocol, it is not entirely clear to us exactly how you propose to demonstrate your claim. Can you please be
more specific?

As it would be difficult to predict when a test subject will be experiencing pain (being possible that some migraine sufferes will not actually have a migraine headache on the day of the test), we cannot guarantee that a test involving persons suffering from pain could be properly conducted unless administered under laboratory conditions. This would be both costly and time consuming.

I would now ask you the following question: does the test have to incorporate people who are suffering from pain? Is it not possible to test for the "warm or tingling" sensation by using persons not suffering from any pain at all? This would simplify the test enormously.

We would propose to you a Double-Blind test in which the test subject is isolated from the knowledge of who is standing behind them - either you yourself practicing QiGong (Dr. "A"), or another test participant doing nothing at all (Dr. "B"). So, if the blinded individual can successfully tell us that they feel warmth or tingling when YOU are administering QiGong, you would pass the preliminary test. If, however, the test results show that there is no significant statistical difference between yourself and "Dr. B", this would constitute a failure.

Would a test protocol such as this be acceptable to you?
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Old 18th October 2005, 09:21 AM   #3
KRAMER
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Dear Mr. Kramer,

Thank you very much for accepting my application for the JREF one million dollar challenge. I am proud to accept your proposal of preliminary test. I don't want to burden you with any unnescessary information but I would like to present some details how Medical Qigong work so we can have clear and fair preliminary test and formal test.

Medical Qigong Doctors or Masters can emit Healing Energy from their fingers or palms to some areas of patients who can be suffered by any illness: pain, cancer, multiple sclerosis, parkinson etc.. for the purpose of restoring the energy flow and balancing energy field of the patients who only feel warm, tingling or the circulation of Healing Energy.

A. Preliminary test:
1. Location: test can be done at any regular places which make every body feel comfortable: meeting room, living room which should not be too cold, too windy.
2. I would like to have two test subjects dressing casually: T shirt is standard because materials from clothes absorb healing energy.
3. Test subjects can standing or sitting comfortablely on chair with hands on table, while practicing Medical Qigong I stand behind to put my palms close to test subject' shoulders or move around to put my fingers or palms above their hands.

Any of test subjects can tell that they feel either warm or tingling or circulation of Healing Energy on the areas of their bodies where I administering Qigong I would pass the preliminary test.

B. Formal test.
My Healing Energy goes beyond pain, I can help people with Cancer, Multiple Sclerosis, Fiibromyalgia, Parkinson back to their normal life, even when all other avenues failed. For this challenge I would like to focus on PAIN because when I emit Healing Energy they can tell you immediately within few seconds to few minutes that theii pain either reduced or cleared.
My Healing Energy not only cure patient's illness but also give them strenght they need the most so they can confidently get back to their life.
Most my patients were referred by Healthcare Practitioners, sometime they are Healthcare Practitioners themselves and I always work closely with them as you know I have been working as pharmacist since 1968.
i agree with you that test subjects may not have any pain at all on the day of test but there are a lot of people who still suffer pain because they can't tolerate side effects of pain medications or pain medications do not help at all, some examples:

1.After seven knee surgeries pain still there.
2. Some pain so severe that even the strongest drugs do not help: bone cancer 3.a fibromyalgia patient was so scare to loose her job because her pain
medications made her drownsiness all days
4.the back pain get worse after numerous local injections and acupunctures 5.Liver and kidney are already damaged could not take pain medicines FORMAL TEST PROPOSAL

A.Location: any living room, meeting room where people can sit comfortable on couch or chair.

B.From three to five test subjects whose suffered pain that not helped by all conventional treatments ( cancer even terminal , carpal tunnel syndrom, arthritis, back pain, fibromyalgia, migrraine headache etc...)

C. Test subjects with normal indoor dressing sit around table or on couch.
While administering Medical Qigong I either sit next or move around test subjects.

D.Nothing involved just Healing Energy emitting from my Fingers or Palms.
Depend the nature, the severity and the duration of pain, the test subjects can tell you within few seconds to few minutes but not more than half hour that their pain reduced or cleared.

E. If any of test subjects have their pain reduced I pass the test.
I will try my best for your challenge , sucess or failure always give my more opportunities to learn , to improve my ability in helping others.

Sincerely, Bich Ba Do RPh TTP

P.S. With your permison Mr Jerome Whacks, my fellow Pharmacist, also my classmate will go with me to help my communication bercause of my hearing loss. If you or any others interesting in Medical Qigong please feel free to ask I will be happy to answer.
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Old 18th October 2005, 09:29 AM   #4
KRAMER
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Hello Sir,

Thank you for your reply.

To repeat our position once more, please understand that the JREF has no interest whatsoever in your theories or opinions regarding how QiGong works. We are interested solely in your demonstration, so please refrain from further explanations during the protocol negotiations stage of the Challenge. We are also not interested in the other claims you have put forth in this email, such as helping cancer patients or Parkinson's Disease sufferers.

Please focus your attention on the preliminary test as I have outlined it to you in my previous email. Also, we do not discuss the "final" test prior to a successful demonstration of the preliminary test.

Upon reading your response to my previous email, I see that we do have some problems understanding each other, and in understanding what would constitute an acceptable test of QiGong. Let's try to approach the issues one by one.

1- You say you must "move around" the subject. If this is the case, the subjects would be need to be blindfolded during the test, and the "substitute" (meaning the "healer" who will NOT be practicing QiGong on the subjects) would also walk around the subjects similarly. The point here is to insure that the subject will not be able to decipher any difference between yourself and the "substitute". Similarly, if you are a smoker, the subject would be able to smell you, so if this is the case, both yourself and the "alternate" may be asked to wear identical colognes during the test. Again, the goal here is to insure that the subjects will have no indication of who is standing next to them. The subjects must be isolated in every way from both yourself, and the "alternate". In order for the test to be truly Double-Blinded, this is how it must be done.

2- You yourself are free to chose the pain sufferer(s) for your test. You may bring five (5) subjects if you wish, for mutliple test runs, or you may bring only one (1) subject, but please understand that if you chose to bring only one subject for the test, about twenty (20) test runs would be required.

3- You state in your email the following: "If any of test subjects have their pain reduced I pass the test."

This statement indicates that you may not fully understand the nature of the test as I proposed it to you. Do you understand that the test requires that the subject correctly tells us that they feel a reduction in pain ONLY WHEN IT IS YOU PRACTICING QiGONG ON THEM?

Allow me to re-state our requirements for this test, as follows. If a statistical analysis of the subject's answers tells us that they feel a reduction in pain when the "alternate" is standing beside them, or that they feel no reduction in pain when YOU are standing beside them, or if the results reflected CHANCE results, this would constitute a failure.

A successful test would be a statistically significant number of test runs in which the subject correctly identifies YOU as the agent of pain relief.

4- Regarding your request for us to allow Mt. Jerome Whacks to accompany you to the test, we agree to this, but we will not allow him to be involved in the actual test in any way whatsoever. He will only be allowed to facilitate communication between yourself and the investigative team. You will NOT be permitted to communicate with the test subjects during the test,in any way, and neither will Mr. Whacks.

Another statement you offered in this email gives us concern: "...success or failure always give me more opportunities to learn, to improve my ability in helping others."

Sir, please understand that the purpose of the JREF Paranormal Challenge is NOT to help applicants improve their "skills", or to refine your perceived abilities, or to assist you in working harder to make your QiGong powers stronger. Please do not use the JREF in this fashion.

Our resources are quite limited, and we can only test claims in which genuine paranormal powers are concientiously claimed. If you only THINK you possess this power, please withdraw your application until you are fully confident of your claim, and of your ability to demonstrate it.

The sole purpose of the JREF Challenge test is to decipher fact from fiction, and the question at hand is a very simple one: Does QiGong exist, or does it NOT? The proposed test will answer this question quite conclusively.

To date, no test of QiGong (either by the JREF or any other reputable group) has shown that it exists anywhere but within the mind of the practitioner/believer. Should you demonstrate your claim successfully during the JREF preliminary test, you would be the first person ever to do so, and you would then proceed to the final, formal test.

It is our hope, however, that if you fail, you will begin to look more closely at your beliefs, and accept the significance and strength of a negative test result.

In conclusion, I now ask you if you have ever conducted any type of Double-Blind test on yourself and your QiGong powers.

If not, I suggest that you do so PRIOR to submitting your claim to the JREF preliminary test. Please try to be absolutely certain that you can pass the test BEFORE we proceed. Too many applicants insist on being tested based solely upon their beliefs, and this has ALWAYS resulted in failure.

We ask that you be certain that you can actually pass this proposed test before we contact the JREF colleagues in your area, and before we determine a test date and location. This is not a requirement, but merely a suggestion. Please let us know what you decide to do.

Once we know that you are understanding of (and agreeing to) the specifics of the test protocol as I have outlined it here, we will put you in direct contact with a qualified investigator in your area. Please also understand that the entire test procedure will be videotaped, and that the test results will be fully documented on the JREF website upon its completion.

-Kramer, JREF
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Old 31st October 2005, 11:35 AM   #5
KRAMER
Former challenge facilitator
 
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Posts: 1,434
Dear Sir,

It has been two weeks since I last sent you an email regarding your claim.

I received no response, which brings me to the assumption that the test protocol I outlined is unacceptable to you. Am I correct in that assumption?

Do you intend to pursue your Challenge application, or would you now like to withdraw it? I look forward to your speedy reply.
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Old 4th November 2005, 11:19 AM   #6
KRAMER
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Dear Kramer,

I am sorry for not replying your proposal soon enough, because last two weeks I travelled to other states and I apologize for your concern about my word " success or failure..." it is a sincere express of my respect to your organisation and it only means what ever the outcome of the test my mental stability will never change.

Thank you very much for making very clear of the preliminary test:

*The purpose of the preliminary test is: DOES QIGONG EXIST ?
* How it be conducted : TRULY DOUBLED-BLINDED.

In my previous e-mail ( 10/18/05 ) I did accept you proposal for preliminary test with only a minor suggestion that: "Myself and Subtitute can move around". I never smoke or drink in my life but for the integrity of the test I am willing to wear the same cologne of the SUBTITUTE if required.

A. Test subjects: it does'nt matter that test subjects has any pain, it can be any person.

B. Qigong can be detected by " WARM OR TINGLING SENSATION" or even by its CIRCULATION.

C. In doubled-blinded test ,if the test subjects ( blinfedfold ) can tell investigators that they feel warmth or tingling or circulation of energy while I am adminstering Qigong on them, then I pass the preliminary test.

D. Mr Jerome Whacks only help me to communicate with investigators if needed, he absolutely has nothing to do with the test.

At any time, I never think about withdrawing my claim , six years ago some one suggested that I should apply to be a claimant of your challenge, but decided to wait until now to positively meet your challenge and my paranormal power is a real and helpfull one.

Sincerely yours,
Bich Ba Do
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Old 4th November 2005, 11:30 AM   #7
KRAMER
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Dear Sir,

Thank you for your reply. At this point, we would like you to contact our associates at PhACT in Philadelphia. We entrust them with the final negotiations and refinement of your test protocol, and with conducting that actual test. Please "cc" me on all correspondence you share with them.

We still need to agree to what would constitute a successful test. In your initial claim letter, you stated that you were able to "reduce pain", and made several references to conditions involving symptoms of pain. However in this most recent email, you made only a passing reference to pain, and you now state that a "warm & tingling sensation" will constitute a successful test.

Obviously, we need to discuss this further. You may feel free to negotiate these points with our associates at PhACT.

Also, please be patient. Most often, it can take several weeks (or even months) to arrange for a proper test. We beg your understanding in this regard.

Please contact Mr. Bob Glickman at his email address, as follows: r.glickman@comcast.net

I have already emailed him to say that you will be contacting him shortly.

Good Luck with your test, sir.
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Old 10th November 2005, 07:17 AM   #8
KRAMER
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From our associate at PhACT, Eric Krieg

Dear Bich Ba Do,

I am Eric Krieg of PhACT, the Philadelphia Association for Critical Thinking.
I personally would love to be part of a test of your abilities. You seem open to a fair test where our side would simply want to make sure that conventional means of detection wouldn't be used. The other people running PhACT and I would have to sign off on the procedures - and you too, in advance.

A few quesitons come to mind early: Are you open and accepting of all the terms of the Randi million dollar prize test?

Would it be OK for us to supply subjects to try to sense tingling? Could the subjects be blind folded? Could we pick whether you do either the real thing or fake motions, in case they can detect motion behind them?

We would be deciding and signaling you which to do, the real or the fake. We would want to agree to terms that woudl be OK for you to make sure you have the best chance but also tight enough to make sure we don't accidentally get false results. About 20 trials per person would give a one in a million chance of getting all right just by chance. Of course I would expect less accuracy for victory on your part. I personally would be willing to agree ahead of time to pay your way to meet my friend Randi in FL, if you do very well. Please think about what conditions you need to operate, we wouldn't want to have distractions that could mess you up.

Also, consider maybe making a brief appearance at our next meeting Saturday at 2pm - maybe we could have you speak for about 5 minutes.

Again, others other than just me would have to sign on for the final protocol.

Eric Krieg
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Old 10th November 2005, 07:20 AM   #9
KRAMER
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A reply to Eric Krieg, from BICH BA DO

Thank you for your e-mail. I have been in Philadelphia more than 30 years and my business, Bernabei's pharmacy, located right in Italian Market and just few blocks away from Liberty Bell. I am very familiar with PhACT, in fact while I was working at my store some day July 1997, I came across an article in Philadelphia Inquirer about the test for any Therapeutic Touch practictioner who can recognize the wrists of Capral Tunnel Syndrom and the healthy one. You know only one Therapeutic Touch practioner from California shown up and she failed. It was so interesting that made me get into the Energy medecine's field, honestly if this test will be offered again I love to take it.

I will try my best to answer of yours questions.

1. As I am an applicant of the Randi million dollar challenge I have an obligation to accept of all the terms required. .

2. For the integrity of the test and for my paranormal powers the test subjects should be invited by your organisation.

3. Mr Kramer in his last e-mail reminded me about my initial claim " PAIN REDUCE" which I always stand for but if you also want me to show that Qigong is real by having test subjects recognize my Healing Energy by the warm or tingling sensation or the flow of Energy whiile I am administrating I will.

4. The test should be doubled-blinded with the test subjects blinded-folded as requested by Mr Kramer but if you come up with any other test proprosal which satisfies Mr. Kramer I will work with you on it.

5. I didn't understand completely your suggestion "... real thing or fake motion... " please more specific.

It is my honor to go to your next meeting November 19/2005, since I lost most of my hearing two years ago I would like to go with my friend Mr.
Jerome Whacks who help me in communication and please accept my apologize for any inconveniences which may cause because of my hearing impairement.

Sincerely,
Bich Ba Do
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Old 14th November 2005, 11:15 AM   #10
KRAMER
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from Eric Krieg (PhAct), and the reply from Bich Ba Do

Bob Glickman, who was on this dialog, Randi and I were part of that test.
We would be glad to repeat that test for you or anyone. I'm open for you to induce tingling. But could you stand behind someone and on our cue either make tingling or with near the same net motions, not induce. I'm just thinking that someone could detect air motions if you are flailing your hands.

We'd love to have you show up to the meeting. Let me know in advance
if I should introduce you and if you'd be open to say a few words of
introduction. We have a speaker, but I'd love for people to meet you.

Could we continue dialog about test conditions with a more complete
list of people interested?

-Eric Krieg

================================================== =======

Dear Sir,

I will do my best to work with you to have a test protocol which has no room for any chances and mistakes and I would welcome any people who show interest in test conditions and they can input their ideas so we can have the best test which will satisfy all parties.

1.in your last proposal it seems to me that "myself" stand behind blinded-folded test subject either induce or not at all my Healing Energy with the same net motions and the tingling sensation is the proof. Am I correct ?

2. Do you come up with any test proposal for my claim " PAIN REDUCE" ? Pain is the most burden in our society now to the level that some countries(
Netherland) and one of our state, Oregon, have to make the law to ask Medical Doctor who suppose to save life to help in assisted-suicide.

3. The test for Therapeutic Touch Practitioner I can take it any time with your convenience when you want to repeat.

Please accept my apologize because an emergency of family matte, I have to travel to California for one week, I could not attend your board meeting this Saturday November/19/2005 I hope I can make it to your next meeting.

Bich Ba Do
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Old 4th January 2006, 11:18 AM   #11
KRAMER
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Posts: 1,434
From Kramer to Erik, and back again

Hey Erik,

I rec'd cc's of your initial correspondence with BICH BA DO about 8 weeks ago, but nothing since. Has he vanished already?

KRAMER, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

================================================== ===

Kramer,

I followed him up about 2 weeks ago. The ball is clearly in his court.

These people have a way of fading once they really ponder what a proper test would be.

I'll follow Bich up again.

- Eric Krieg
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