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Old 1st February 2019, 01:11 AM   #1601
Darat
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Maybe you would prefer it if the forum only had a load of atheists congratulating each other on how clever they are ?
Nah, just prefer some evidence for your hideous belief system that tells the 12 year old it is good that she has been repeatedly raped by soldiers and then set on fire as it means she is spiritually evolving.
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Old 1st February 2019, 04:39 AM   #1602
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Science is not wrong. It simply knows nothing about the spirit world.

Consciousness remains a mystery, in spite of outlandish claims by the likes of Daniel Dennett, who has to admit his ideas are just theories.
More unsubstantiated rubbish. And you still don't know what "theory" means in a scientific context.
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Old 1st February 2019, 04:51 AM   #1603
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I cant be bothered reading through the last 40 odd pages, but why do I get the distinct impression this thread has been goind round and round and round and round and round and.........
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Old 1st February 2019, 04:58 AM   #1604
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Originally Posted by philkensebben View Post
I cant be bothered reading through the last 40 odd pages, but why do I get the distinct impression this thread has been goind round and round and round and round and round and.........
Because you are psychic!
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Old 1st February 2019, 05:24 AM   #1605
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nah, just prefer some evidence for your hideous belief system that tells the 12 year old it is good that she has been repeatedly raped by soldiers and then set on fire as it means she is spiritually evolving.
There you go again, dragging down my thread with horrible things.

I have never said we should cause people to suffer, I have said actions have karmic consequences.
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Old 1st February 2019, 05:31 AM   #1606
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Therein, right there, lies the root of all the nonsense you spout.



Yet you can have no experience of this. This is simply the product of your brain. You've dreamt it up, or you are so extremely gullible that you've just accepted what you've been told by charlatans, liars, fraudsters, and your fellow deluded.
It is my experience not all mediums are frauds, and I attended many trance lectures by famous mediums. I think they are now all dead but there is some of their teachings available on the internet.

I went to 'White Eagle lodge' the medium there was Grace Cook
I studied under Ursula Roberts, and was in her healing class.
I attended trance lectures by Ivy Northage.

All of them said similar things about reincarnation and karma.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 1st February 2019, 05:36 AM   #1607
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The placebo effect is not proof of the existence of a spirit world. I can't believe this needs to be pointed out on a sceptics forum.
I did not know about the chakras until I saw a picture in a book and recognised them as the places I felt fire flowing. I subsequently found there are minor chakras in the palms of the hands and you can direct energy though them. Spiritualist healers do this, and eventually I was able to channel energy through my own minor chakras, and I could feel the benefit.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 1st February 2019, 05:39 AM   #1608
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is my experience not all mediums are frauds,
With your belief that you are right about most things, you are not in any position to pass such judgement.


Quote:
and I attended many trance lectures by famous mediums. I think they are now all dead but there is some of their teachings available on the internet.

I went to 'White Eagle lodge' the medium there was Grace Cook
I studied under Ursula Roberts, and was in her healing class.
I attended trance lectures by Ivy Northage.
So what? All you are doing is demonstrating that you are gullible, and that there are fraudsters on the planet.

Quote:
All of them said similar things about reincarnation and karma.
All of them are wrong. All of them are liars or delusional.
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Old 1st February 2019, 05:55 AM   #1609
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post


All of them are wrong. All of them are liars or delusional.
You don't know that, its just your belief.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 1st February 2019, 06:43 AM   #1610
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You don't know that, its just your belief.
Indeed not. It is the null hypothesis. The default position until or unless evidence arises which contradicts it. Have you any idea why no such evidence has ever been found, despite centuries of looking?
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Old 1st February 2019, 07:56 AM   #1611
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Indeed not. It is the null hypothesis. The default position until or unless evidence arises which contradicts it. Have you any idea why no such evidence has ever been found, despite centuries of looking?
This world is a meeting ground of evolved and less evolved souls. It is by our interactions with one another we spiritually evolve. We act, and face the karmic consequences. If there was absolute proof of God and the afterlife we would be constrained by fear of those consequences.

In this world the truth is not self evident, we have to discover it for ourselves. By trial and error we evolve. In higher realms the spirits say the presence of a God is obvious. But in higher realms there is no pressure on us, and we cannot grow spiritually.

It takes the struggles of this world to force changes in the soul. Therefore souls choose to reincarnate until they reach a state of grace in a final lifetime, after which they continue on as immortals.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 1st February 2019 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:15 AM   #1612
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
This world is a meeting ground of evolved and less evolved souls.
Utter piffle

Quote:
It is by our interactions with one another we spiritually evolve.
Individuals don't evolve.


Quote:
We act, and face the karmic consequences.
Rubbish.

Quote:
If there was absolute proof of God and the afterlife we would be constrained by fear of those consequences.
If there were flying unicorns farting stardust........

Quote:
In this world the truth is not self evident, we have to discover it for ourselves.
No we don't. We can look up the accumulated discoveries of hundreds of years of human quest for knowledge. We don't need to reinvent the periodic table or trigonometry every generation.

Quote:
By trial and error we evolve.
No we don't. See above.

Quote:
In higher realms the spirits say the presence of a God is obvious.
You have no evidence for this. We have huge amounts of evidence that you are gullible, rendering your assertions worthless.


Quote:
But in higher realms there is no pressure on us, and we cannot grow spiritually.
Meaningless.

Quote:
It takes the struggles of this world to force changes in the soul.
There is no evidence for the existence of the soul.

Quote:
Therefore souls choose to reincarnate until they reach a state of grace in a final lifetime, after which they continue on as immortals.
See above. Demonstrate the existence of souls, then we'll take some notice of the rest of your "wisdom" on the matter.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:17 AM   #1613
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Science is not wrong. It simply knows nothing about the spirit world.
It also knows nothing about Hogwarts, the Force, Smaug and the purple Teletubby.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:19 AM   #1614
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You don't know that, its just your belief.
I love how woo-woo believers have to drag down everybody to their own intellectual level when it becomes clear that they can't support their claims with anything that could ever convince someone who doesn't already accept.
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Old 1st February 2019, 09:38 AM   #1615
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You can assume I am lying, but I am not. Therefore there must be another explanation.
Well that's me convinced, a liar would never say that

Not an accusation that you're a liar, just pointing out that it's a wholly unconvincing argument.
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Old 1st February 2019, 10:39 AM   #1616
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I love how woo-woo believers have to drag down everybody to their own intellectual level when it becomes clear that they can't support their claims with anything that could ever convince someone who doesn't already accept.
MikeG said of mediums "All of them are wrong. All of them are liars or delusional. "

No matter what his intellectual level he cannot state this as a fact, its just his opinion.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 1st February 2019, 10:45 AM   #1617
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Utter piffle
Prove it

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Individuals don't evolve.
I said they 'spiritually' evolve. Experience makes us wiser. Hard experience forces changes in us.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 1st February 2019, 11:11 AM   #1618
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There you go again, dragging down my thread with horrible things.

I have never said we should cause people to suffer, I have said actions have karmic consequences.
You have clearly stated any times that people suffer so that they will spiritually evolve, that you dont like the consequences of your belief system is your problem not mine. Thankfully my belief system does not hold that suffering is good.
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Old 1st February 2019, 11:12 AM   #1619
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is my experience not all mediums are frauds, and I attended many trance lectures by famous mediums. I think they are now all dead but there is some of their teachings available on the internet.

I went to 'White Eagle lodge' the medium there was Grace Cook
I studied under Ursula Roberts, and was in her healing class.
I attended trance lectures by Ivy Northage.

All of them said similar things about reincarnation and karma.
Scientologists all say similar things about Xemu.
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Old 1st February 2019, 11:17 AM   #1620
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
This world is a meeting ground of evolved and less evolved souls. It is by our interactions with one another we spiritually evolve. We act, and face the karmic consequences. If there was absolute proof of God and the afterlife we would be constrained by fear of those consequences.

In this world the truth is not self evident, we have to discover it for ourselves. By trial and error we evolve. In higher realms the spirits say the presence of a God is obvious. But in higher realms there is no pressure on us, and we cannot grow spiritually.

It takes the struggles of this world to force changes in the soul.
Therefore souls choose to reincarnate until they reach a state of grace in a final lifetime, after which they continue on as immortals.
Just to point out again that you are saying that it is neccessary for the 12 year old to be repeatedly raped by solders and then set on fire, not only that but she chose to experience that suffering.

Horrible, disgusting and stomach churning beliefs.
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Old 1st February 2019, 11:29 AM   #1621
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I am older and more experienced than I was decades ago.
Probably not much wiser but more cautious and aware of the pitfalls of poor thinking.

Is that my spirit evolving or just getting tired of getting kicked by stupidity?

I do not want to destroy your healing or the base of your faith. It would serve no purpose.

But it seems like I did what you did without mediums and chakras at all. Just me drifting through life trying to not kill myself by stupidity.

All of us 30 and older that can still walk and breathe have succeeded no matter our faith or lack thereof.
Most didn't call the Chaman Julio that had his show on TV at 3 this morning. Very few even know he exists.

There is a mundane explication to your healing if you want it.
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Old 1st February 2019, 11:44 AM   #1622
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I love how woo-woo believers have to drag down everybody to their own intellectual level when it becomes clear that they can't support their claims with anything that could ever convince someone who doesn't already accept.
I like to envision the scientific understanding of he universe as a huge, 50,000 piece jigsaw puzzle, it's incomplete, but we've got big sections together, and lots of them have connected together, we put together the chemistry bit, and when we got the medicine bit right it joined together, along with biology and evolution, the electrical bit grew out into the electronic bit (that makes these woo woo posts possible) while the physics bit started from levers and pendulums and wound up at the building blocks of matter, and amazingly joined up with the electronics and the chemistry. Astronomy started at looking at the stars and progressed to understanding what they're made of and how they work, and wonder of wonders, it joins right in seamlessly with physics and chemistry and electronics.

Yes, the jigsaw isn't complete, there are still gaps, but we can see the overall picture and we have seen enough pieces now that we know they're tiny, delicately formed, carefully cut and beautifully printed in incredible resolution on a fine, indestructible backing.

Then people come along, with spiritualism, crystal healing, homeopathy, ghosts, gods and all these other imaginary ideas that are like 1/4 inch thick plywood farm animal cutouts from a baby's farmyard shape sorter and insist that because the jigsaw isn't finished we can't prove they don't fit in.
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Old 1st February 2019, 11:53 AM   #1623
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Prove it
Sorry, that's your job. You made the claim. I am merely saying your unsupported claim is piffle.

Quote:
I said they 'spiritually' evolve.
Yes, but they're words that don't mean anything.

Quote:
Experience makes us wiser. Hard experience forces changes in us.
At least, we can agree on something. What do you think you are going to learn from your hard experience in this thread?
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:00 PM   #1624
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just to point out again that you are saying that it is neccessary for the 12 year old to be repeatedly raped by solders and then set on fire, not only that but she chose to experience that suffering.

Horrible, disgusting and stomach churning beliefs.
Thanks for your cheerful input. Are you referring to an actual event, or just dredging up the worst things you can imagine to throw at me? Last time you dragged my thread down to a discussion about Hitler and abused babies.

In any case the human soul who chooses to reincarnate in order to progress is unlikely to be able to see future events in their forthcoming incarnation.

The only thing they know is they are not yet evolved enough to rise to the highest levels of the spirit world, so they need to come back.
If terrible things happen to them unjustly , then they will be compensated in future lives.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:09 PM   #1625
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You have clearly stated any times that people suffer so that they will spiritually evolve, that you dont like the consequences of your belief system is your problem not mine. Thankfully my belief system does not hold that suffering is good.
You have a belief system, I am surprised. Would that be that you think the universe is a meaningless chaotic accident, and life came about by chance?

The fact is that life is full of suffering, but as I have said it forces growth.
In the animal world predator and prey both evolve in the struggle for survival.
Individuals get eaten, but the species as a whole keeps evolving.

The present amazing range of animals is evidence the natural order works well.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:14 PM   #1626
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
......If terrible things happen to them unjustly , then they will be compensated in future lives.
Oh that's alright then. Great.

Tell me, what is the moral case against torture?
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:18 PM   #1627
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
At least, we can agree on something. What do you think you are going to learn from your hard experience in this thread?
I do not find this thread too hard, a bit taxing maybe. I found fighting for my sanity and defying psychiatrists who wrote me off as incurable when I was 22 years old hard. But I am now 72 and have survived.

I say I survived because I am right about the spirit world, and spiritual healing helped correct the damage mental suffering caused to my etheric body. Thus reducing my negative experiences.

In my experience psychiatrists usually know nothing about such things and regard people like me as hallucinated and delusional. Good job I did not listen to them.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:21 PM   #1628
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Oh that's alright then. Great.

Tell me, what is the moral case against torture?
I am not quite sure what you mean by that, but-

Torture is obviously cruel and wrong, it will also come back on the torturer in the form of bad karma.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:23 PM   #1629
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
.....Torture is obviously cruel and wrong, it will also come back on the torturer in the form of bad karma.
Really? But the torturer is actually doing the person a favour in the long run, by your logic.
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:41 PM   #1630
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I am older and more experienced than I was decades ago.
Probably not much wiser but more cautious and aware of the pitfalls of poor thinking.

Is that my spirit evolving or just getting tired of getting kicked by stupidity?

I do not want to destroy your healing or the base of your faith. It would serve no purpose.

But it seems like I did what you did without mediums and chakras at all. Just me drifting through life trying to not kill myself by stupidity.

All of us 30 and older that can still walk and breathe have succeeded no matter our faith or lack thereof.
Most didn't call the Chaman Julio that had his show on TV at 3 this morning. Very few even know he exists.

There is a mundane explication to your healing if you want it.
I believe the current state of the world is that we are learning to use our reason and intellect. This is the intended plan and mental development is taking place, at least in the western world. The fact this rational thinking produces atheists does not matter one bit. Atheists are fulfilling the purpose of their incarnation, and they do not have to believe in anything.

What my experience has taught me is not really just faith, I consider my views to be more like knowledge. But knowledge of the occult more than science.
I am however qualified in electronics and microprocessor technology.

I am happy to hear your views on healing.
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:49 PM   #1631
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Really? But the torturer is actually doing the person a favour in the long run, by your logic.
That's one way of looking at it, but its kind of twisting things
Like I have said, we are mixed together in this world. The spiritual and the unevolved meet and interact. This struggle forces growth. I don't really think torturers are doing anyone a favour, they are just doing bad things because they are spiritually ignorant. Those that are tortured may learn to forgive them, and in doing so will spiritually advance. There is opportunity for advancement even in bad things.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:02 PM   #1632
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
More unsubstantiated rubbish. And you still don't know what "theory" means in a scientific context.
Dennett says, in the preface to consciousness explained.

"I think I can sketch an outline of the solution, a theory of consciousness that gives answers ( or shows how to find the answers)"

And

" I am sure there are still plenty of mistakes in the theory I will offer here"

So what is his theory worth ? He is not claiming to be certain.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:26 PM   #1633
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I see how you healed yourself. A young you didn't fit well in the world of your parents and that world seen you as the misfit, and reacted.

As time passed and with it the world of the past you learned to conform some and found a place in a more spirituality based group.
There you became normal, thus healed. No more an oddity among another normal.

And there you matured and became functional in other areas. In society also probably.

But it was you that made the choices and changes based on the influences around you.

That doesn't make a spirit world real to all of us, nor karma or chakras or whatever.

It was the tool, the guidance you needed to become 'healed' of a scarred youth. For that it has deep value to you.

It's a path many of us took. Just change the details. For me a term in the military was the maturing point and finding others on the fringes of popular society that are a more diverse and forgiving lot than the 'normal' folks. It gave me the confidence to get back into other areas again.
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:53 PM   #1634
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Dennett says, in the preface to consciousness explained.

"I think I can sketch an outline of the solution, a theory of consciousness that gives answers ( or shows how to find the answers)"

And

" I am sure there are still plenty of mistakes in the theory I will offer here"

So what is his theory worth ? He is not claiming to be certain.
More than yours apparently.

ETA: His is about connecting up some of the puzzle pieces and trying to fit them to the other completed parts of the picture. Yours is a plywood sheep.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:02 PM   #1635
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
More than yours apparently.
I am entirely certain Dennett is completely wrong. As Descartes said , we are the ghost in the machine. Obviously if the spirit survives the death of the body consciousness must have another vehicle to survive. The occult teaches we have several bodies. The soul body, the mental body and the astral body, and the etheric counterpart. The etheric body is not an actual body but a shell that channels consciousness down from the mental world into the physical body.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

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Old 1st February 2019, 02:20 PM   #1636
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Uh huh, you know more about the theory of the mind than Dennett, I'm sure you know more about ISIS than the generals and have the bigliest and best words too.

Plywood Sheep.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:24 PM   #1637
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
...if....


Since you can't prove your "if" the rest is just 'made up stuff'.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:47 PM   #1638
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Thor 2 said "So as well as literally hearing voices (female ones) as described in your other post, you now actually feel heat as part of your spiritual experience. Lots of material for our amateur shrink arthwollipot to work with here. "

I have said, somewhere in the depths of this, or another thread, that the first thing that put me on to a study of spiritualism and the occult was that I used to have feelings like fire flowing through various parts of my body. I also felt other things like cobwebs floating over my skin that were sensitive to sudden sounds.

One day I was looking in a book called ' alternative London' and I saw a picture of a yogi with the seven main chakras marked on it. I immediately recognised these places as the locations I felt the fire flowing through me. I then embarked on a search for information about this and an attempt to understand it.

I soon found asking psychiatrists about it was a waste of breath, and was dangerous, as they just increased my medication.

So I went to a spiritualist church in about 1972, and after that to the spiritualist association in London where I attended lots of trance lectures, and a healing class run by the late medium Ursula Roberts.

Eventually I was told the cause of my feelings was that my etheric body was loose, and my chakras were miss aligned. I had a lot of spiritual healing and after some years I was cured. I was then able to stop medication, and study to become an electronic engineer.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The healing worked but the medication did not.

I really am glad you seem to have found comfort in your healed state. As long as you just confine your proselytizing to posting on forums like this, I don't see any harm in it. If you drag someone else who is in need of psychiatric help off to the medium instead, then I have an issue with it.

It seems obvious you were quite young when you originally suffered from your complaint, and this brings to mind a friend of mine who was in his late teens, when diagnosed as schizophrenic, and also suffered from epileptic seizure. He was cured by medical science.

If you are comfortable in your mind now it would seem unlikely that you would be inclined toward self harm. It occurs to me the self harm was one of the main tenets arthwollipot suggested as indicative of insanity. You seem to be in the clear here in spite of his diagnosis. Must beat him around the head with this.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:51 PM   #1639
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
If you drag someone else who is in need of psychiatric help off to the medium instead, then I have an issue with it.
Mmmmm, you might not want to read this thread from the beginning. (Not exactly this, but pretty close...)
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Old 1st February 2019, 04:27 PM   #1640
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am entirely certain Dennett is completely wrong. As Descartes said , we are the ghost in the machine. Obviously if the spirit survives the death of the body consciousness must have another vehicle to survive. The occult teaches we have several bodies. The soul body, the mental body and the astral body, and the etheric counterpart. The etheric body is not an actual body but a shell that channels consciousness down from the mental world into the physical body.

Only Descartes didn't say. Ghost in the machine was a description by Gilbert Ryle, who was a critic of Cartesian mind-body dualism.
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