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Tags 1st amendment issues , aclu

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Old 8th March 2019, 01:45 PM   #41
lionking
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It looks like the ACLU is concerned that their donors and other groups with people who contribute to certain causes but the organization has other causes they work on, revealing the donors could make it look like uninvolved people donated to said causes when they really donated to other causes.

The ACLU no doubt is afraid they will lose donors. It's always about the money, even when it's the ACLU.

Could be solved by some tweaking of the bill and perhaps some different record keeping on donors to political groups. I fail to see how the 1st Amendment protects your right to donate secretly.
Bingo. Correct on all counts.
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Old 8th March 2019, 03:21 PM   #42
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I'm guessing the AOC graffiti thread lost traction pretty quickly, meaning its time for TBD to roll out another distraction to avoid discussing pesky things like a deficit going through the roof.
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Old 8th March 2019, 03:22 PM   #43
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And gutting the First Amendment? Seriously?

Sounds like TBD read the headline and imagined a whole story around it.
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Old 8th March 2019, 05:01 PM   #44
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Sad thread.
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Old 8th March 2019, 05:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
That is the core of the problem: you're a ******* no-claimer.

You fail to make a claim and support it with citations and reasoned argument. Much like any of the left-over 9/11 Truthers I run into on Facebook
wrong, for pete' sake read the damn headline.

The fact that I did not make a specific claim does not mean I did not mean I did not make any claim.

Pathetic
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Old 8th March 2019, 05:38 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm sort of glad that the opening post is the opening post -- free of topic drift and what have you -- so I can get on a fog-free soapbox for a moment...

The OP is finely distilled example of a particular style of posting that I hold in low regard. I don't object to the insults directed at a group of people per se. Nor do I object to citing a third party opinion about the measure. What's objectionable is the lack of a citation to the text in question. And even then, a mere link doesn't cut it. I want to see a quote of the precise text that is considered objectionable, without having to click through a series of Bacon-esque links. It's a recipe for non-communicative posturing.

"The measure doesn't say that."
"Yes it does, you didn't read it".
"Yes I did and...". Etc.

By default, I trust the ACLU more than I trust the Democrats. I won't be surprised if, once I read up, that I agree with the OP/ACLU. Still, I don't think it's a lot to ask that when someone claims that text T is objectionable, that T be quoted.

ADD: Funny enough, I composed this before there were any replies to the OP. See what I mean?
But at least there's a takeaway -- the weaseling in the OP is a fairly reliable indicator that BS is being foisted.
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Old 8th March 2019, 05:43 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
But at least there's a takeaway -- the weaseling in the OP is a fairly reliable indicator that BS is being foisted.
weaseling? Do you not know what that word means?

No surprise to see the dedicated leftists defending this bill.

sheep.
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Old 8th March 2019, 06:23 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Could be solved by some tweaking of the bill and perhaps some different record keeping on donors to political groups. I fail to see how the 1st Amendment protects your right to donate secretly.

I'd like to see the voter protection stuff stripped of the campaign finance stuff and passed by the House. Then the Republican Senate can explain exactly what they have against laws that make it easier for people to register to vote.

I'd like to know, though TBD will never answer, whether he believes that the first section of the bill should be law.
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Old 8th March 2019, 07:52 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong, for pete' sake read the damn headline.

The fact that I did not make a specific claim does not mean I did not mean I did not make any claim.

Pathetic
Pitiful.
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Old 8th March 2019, 08:41 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I'd like to see the voter protection stuff stripped of the campaign finance stuff and passed by the House. Then the Republican Senate can explain exactly what they have against laws that make it easier for people to register to vote....
Agree.
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Old 8th March 2019, 09:07 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
HR 1 of the new Congress is as outrageous an attack on the First Amendment as one will every see.

It bears the Orwellian name of "For the People Act." With an insipid name like that you are sure to know it is a total scam.

Even the ACLU felt compelled to weigh in:

"If enacted, they would violate the First Amendment rights of American citizens and public interest organizations. Unless those provisions are fixed, we will oppose H.R. 1 and recommend that members of Congress vote against it."

-the ACLU

The leftist grifters in the House are the greatest threat to fundamental human rights of speech and association in the United States today.
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but would it hurt you to actually provide some sort of information about what the bill actually does?

Now I know that, whatever it is, the ACLU is against it. That doesn't really tell me much. I mean, I understand that it is probably bad if the ACLU is against it on those grounds, but....what is it?


I know, I know, I'm too lazy to look it up. Right? Well, sort of. What I mean is that I probably will look it up, but I don't like threads that make me do work just to find out what the thread is about. THe fact that the ACLU is denouncing something Democratic is enough to pique my curiosity, but still.
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Old 8th March 2019, 09:18 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Thanks TBD. I didn't actually expect you to misrepresent the issue so badly.
You must be new here.
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Old 8th March 2019, 09:40 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

Missed the reference to the ACLU's objections, did ya?


If we accept that "what they said!" qualifies as an argument the fact that you clearly have no idea what their position is means confirms my assessment that you have no idea what your own argument is.
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Old 8th March 2019, 09:47 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I know, I know, I'm too lazy to look it up. Right? Well, sort of. What I mean is that I probably will look it up, but I don't like threads that make me do work just to find out what the thread is about.

Don't blame yourself if you look it up and still don't understand it. The bill is insanely long, as it seeks to overhaul the entire Voter Rights Act, address gerrymandering, provide a voluntary system for campaign matching funds, overturn Citizens United, and broaden the requirements for reporting dark money in campaign spending.

Not only that, but so far the only links in this thread are to partisan opinion pieces that decry the bill in the broadest terms without specifying exactly what about the bill they're for or against. In fact, they fail to explain how the bill's provisions would "chill" free speech. They just declare it.

And add to that the fact that the ACLU's position has been badly misrepresented. In fact, the ACLU supports the majority of the bill - including all of the voter registration stuff.

It looks like the main objection from Conservatives is to the FEC reporting requirements. In that, they're confusing the freedom to speak with the freedom to be anonymous. They're also discounting entirely the strong interest the public has in knowing who is supporting a candidate or cause, as it's useful information in casting an informed vote.

But it's all a mess because the Conservatives who are against the bill refuse to speak plainly. That makes it pretty hard to counter their arguments. It's like writing that the Standard Model of Particle Physics has a number missing and then forcing people to guess where in all those pages of equations the mistake might be.
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Old 8th March 2019, 09:51 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
The portions that seem to most offend him don't really stop anyone from speaking. They just impose requirements on identifying the speaker.
TBD can't actually tell us what portions offend him and why. Hence my contention he doesn't even know what his own argument is. All he really seems to know is that he is supposed to be outraged even if he has no idea what or why.
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Old 8th March 2019, 10:30 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I'd like to see the voter protection stuff stripped of the campaign finance stuff and passed by the House. Then the Republican Senate can explain exactly what they have against laws that make it easier for people to register to vote.

I'd like to know, though TBD will never answer, whether he believes that the first section of the bill should be law.
zoinks, loss leader, gotta thing about TBD? Where the **** did you get the idea that I would never answer?

Nothing in this ******* abortion of a bill, this disgusting wreck of idiocy that panders to people that have literally no idea what they are talking about should become law, and yes, loss leader that includes all those things you think can be surgically sliced off and saved.

You pretend the pandering leftist idiots will strip off something from the bill and think that they are going to TOTALLY OWN the Republicans who will have to explain something that is literally never going to happen because the rat ******* who wrote this abomination will never ever do that. Will you call out the Democrats and demand that they strip it out? Or are you just hypothetically owning the Republicans?

Say loss leader, I answered!

Sorry the For The People Act is such a third semester abortion, although I fully understand it if that appeals to leftists.

Last edited by The Big Dog; 8th March 2019 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 9th March 2019, 03:15 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Missed the reference to the ACLU's objections, did ya? or the article I linked to from the Free speech society.



The Big Dog does evidence, the leftists don't bother to read it.
Already sorted. Just a lie.
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Old 9th March 2019, 03:19 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
weaseling? Do you not know what that word means?



No surprise to see the dedicated leftists defending this bill.



sheep.
Baaaaaa
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Old 9th March 2019, 03:31 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sheep.
Yup. You're down to the level of 9/11 Truthers.
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Old 9th March 2019, 04:35 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's really interesting to see the difference between the (general) tribal reactions here.

When Republicans do something considered wrong, the leftists on this website get outraged and angry. When Liberals do something considered wrong, the rightists dance and laugh. It's almost as if they're happy to see the other side be as dirty as their own, rather than genuinely being angry by the actions.
I don't know what happened to the real value based, sincere conservatives. I have actually a lot of respect for people who are honest but just happen to hold different values from me about the role of government. But they've been replaced by trolls who value "owning the libs" more than anything else. I even see posters here who were more thoughtfully conservative drifting over to the trolling side bit by bit.

Meanwhile on the left, everything is outrage and anger.

It honestly feels a bit like the Morlocks and Eloi. The left and right are both drifting towards their least productive extremes, creating new species which can't interact in any meaningful way.
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Old 9th March 2019, 04:47 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I don't know what happened to the real value based, sincere conservatives. I have actually a lot of respect for people who are honest but just happen to hold different values from me about the role of government. But they've been replaced by trolls who value "owning the libs" more than anything else. I even see posters here who were more thoughtfully conservative drifting over to the trolling side bit by bit.

Meanwhile on the left, everything is outrage and anger.

It honestly feels a bit like the Morlocks and Eloi. The left and right are both drifting towards their least productive extremes, creating new species which can't interact in any meaningful way.
You do realise that in Europe your "left" would seem to be very centrist. You really don't have serious left wing politics in the USA. Even Bernie Sanders and AOC are only advocating for policies Western Europe has espoused for decades. That doesn't sound like outrage and anger to me. It seems like a political philosophy. Just because it is in competition with a political philosophy on the right which seems to be dominated now by an extreme faction like Trump Supporters, the remnants of the Tea Party, the Koch Brothers and their ilk, White Supremacists and Fundamental Christians doesn't make progressive positions extreme.
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Old 9th March 2019, 05:25 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
You do realise that in Europe your "left" would seem to be very centrist. You really don't have serious left wing politics in the USA. Even Bernie Sanders and AOC are only advocating for policies Western Europe has espoused for decades. That doesn't sound like outrage and anger to me. It seems like a political philosophy. Just because it is in competition with a political philosophy on the right which seems to be dominated now by an extreme faction like Trump Supporters, the remnants of the Tea Party, the Koch Brothers and their ilk, White Supremacists and Fundamental Christians doesn't make progressive positions extreme.
I didn't say American left wing positions were extreme or far to the left on a global scale. I'm referring more to the social trends I see in people who identify as the left here. And I myself identify as the left here. I'm talking about the conversations among the population, not the policies of officials. That's a whole other issue.
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Old 9th March 2019, 07:20 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
You do realise that in Europe your "left" would seem to be very centrist. You really don't have serious left wing politics in the USA. Even Bernie Sanders and AOC are only advocating for policies Western Europe has espoused for decades. That doesn't sound like outrage and anger to me. It seems like a political philosophy. Just because it is in competition with a political philosophy on the right which seems to be dominated now by an extreme faction like Trump Supporters, the remnants of the Tea Party, the Koch Brothers and their ilk, White Supremacists and Fundamental Christians doesn't make progressive positions extreme.
The Sanders medicare fo all plan is to the left of Western Europe....everything covered, no copays, no private insurance allowed.
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Old 9th March 2019, 07:50 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
zoinks, loss leader, gotta thing about TBD? Where the **** did you get the idea that I would never answer?

Nothing in this ******* abortion of a bill, this disgusting wreck of idiocy that panders to people that have literally no idea what they are talking about should become law, and yes, loss leader that includes all those things you think can be surgically sliced off and saved.

You pretend the pandering leftist idiots will strip off something from the bill and think that they are going to TOTALLY OWN the Republicans who will have to explain something that is literally never going to happen because the rat ******* who wrote this abomination will never ever do that. Will you call out the Democrats and demand that they strip it out? Or are you just hypothetically owning the Republicans?

Say loss leader, I answered!

Sorry the For The People Act is such a third semester abortion, although I fully understand it if that appeals to leftists.
Another post by TBD that just wildly attacks without a SHRED of SPECIFICITY.

The reason the bill won't pass is simply because
Republicans aren't interested in democracy.
They're NOT interested in ending gerrymandering.
They're NOT interested in transparency.
They're NOT interested in an informed electorate

And they are certainly NOT interested in fair elections.
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Old 9th March 2019, 07:53 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
That is the core of the problem: you're a ******* no-claimer.

You fail to make a claim and support it with citations and reasoned argument. Much like any of the left-over 9/11 Truthers I run into on Facebook
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yup. You're down to the level of 9/11 Truthers.
Anything about the For the People Act, or just going to obsess about the big dog?

Type truther again.
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Old 9th March 2019, 08:01 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
weaseling? Do you not know what that word means?
I use it to mean playing loose with the facts using evasive techniques such as extreme vagueness, indirect citations, unsupported conclusions, etc. As your posts here amply demonstrate.

Fixed it for you:
Quote:
sheeple.
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Old 9th March 2019, 08:02 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Anything about the For the People Act...?
...
Of course not. Why should I?

You have not made a specific, falsifiable claim about it
You have not cited any evidence to support such a claim
You have not advanced a reasoned argument.

You thus lost your own debate by default by not getting it started properly. Again, very much like every 9/11 Truther does on Facebook these days.
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Old 9th March 2019, 08:06 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you think you could substantiate some of your threads and posts with, you know, information?
Why change the habit of a lifetime?
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Old 9th March 2019, 12:09 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I even see posters here who were more thoughtfully conservative drifting over to the trolling side bit by bit.
They were only 'thoughtfully conservative' when they didn't have to defend the indefensible. But now their partisanship is laid bare and 'trolling' is all they have left.

Quote:
Meanwhile on the left, everything is outrage and anger.
Not true. The left is still quite willing to discuss things 'thoughtfully' - even with those who don't deserve it (this thread is a perfect example).

Quote:
It honestly feels a bit like the Morlocks and Eloi. The left and right are both drifting towards their least productive extremes, creating new species which can't interact in any meaningful way.
Nonsense. The right has shifted to least productive extremes, dragging the left along with it. The reason the 'left' can't interact with them in any meaningful way is that no rational person could reach that far.

And in case you hadn't noticed, it's not just 'the left' who are having trouble reaching them. Many conservatives are wondering what the hell happened to their party, and are having to make hard decisions about where their loyalties lie. But of course that just means they are no longer on 'the right'. Because 'thoughtful conservative' is now an oxymoron.
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Old 9th March 2019, 12:19 PM   #70
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Ha ha very funny. Lobby groups will just need to spend more to counteract any slight change the Democrats achieve.

Voters are not the group that holds most of the power in the US. Have not been for decades. Monsanto writes the farm bill. Insurance companies wrote Obamacare.
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Old 9th March 2019, 01:25 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The Sanders medicare fo all plan is to the left of Western Europe....everything covered, no copays, no private insurance allowed.
That's interesting given Medicare has monthly premiums and copays.
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Old 9th March 2019, 01:38 PM   #72
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Yay

Thank goodness I can now get my daily infusion of Russian trolling here rather than having to go over to reddit or Quora.
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Old 9th March 2019, 01:53 PM   #73
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
They were only 'thoughtfully conservative' when they didn't have to defend the indefensible. But now their partisanship is laid bare and 'trolling' is all they have left.

Not true. The left is still quite willing to discuss things 'thoughtfully' - even with those who don't deserve it (this thread is a perfect example).

Nonsense. The right has shifted to least productive extremes, dragging the left along with it. The reason the 'left' can't interact with them in any meaningful way is that no rational person could reach that far.

And in case you hadn't noticed, it's not just 'the left' who are having trouble reaching them. Many conservatives are wondering what the hell happened to their party, and are having to make hard decisions about where their loyalties lie. But of course that just means they are no longer on 'the right'. Because 'thoughtful conservative' is now an oxymoron.

That is one completely biased way of looking at it.

Another biased way would be that Dems have lost their minds, are complaining about everything, including things that never happened like rampant racism and a rise in white supremacy that is actually worth worrying about. Talk about fear-mongering.

The right have to deal with an increasingly hysterical left. Everything is a social crisis. Fingerpointing, name calling, physical attacks on conservatives (Berkeley a few weeks ago, never mentioned here). The left have worked themselves into a frenzy.

Note the above by the way - the attack at Berkeley a few weeks ago that nobody here mentioned. Conservatives aren't the ones starting all the OMG threads. We are mainly discussing your outrage in your threads.

I say "we" but I'm really not that conservative, I just think a lot of liberals are stupid so I disagree with them.

They want illegals to vote (yes they do, they already do in SF), and on and on and on.

Now you have AOC and other radicals being voted in. AOC isn't so frightening on her own, it's the fact that she and others like her got elected by Americans. That is scary to me.

The left have turned this young generation into a bunch of worthless douches that embrace socialist ideas, don't want to work or move out of their parents house.

So we can both be biased and say the other side is bad. Both sides are bad. Not sure how to end this post. People are generally equally stupid so it's hard to say which is worse. Probably neither.

Trumps election unhinged a lot of people.
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Old 9th March 2019, 02:23 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
That is one completely biased way of looking at it.

Another biased way would be that Dems have lost their minds, are complaining about everything, including things that never happened like rampant racism and a rise in white supremacy that is actually worth worrying about. Talk about fear-mongering.

The right have to deal with an increasingly hysterical left. Everything is a social crisis. Fingerpointing, name calling, physical attacks on conservatives (Berkeley a few weeks ago, never mentioned here). The left have worked themselves into a frenzy.

Note the above by the way - the attack at Berkeley a few weeks ago that nobody here mentioned. Conservatives aren't the ones starting all the OMG threads. We are mainly discussing your outrage in your threads.

I say "we" but I'm really not that conservative, I just think a lot of liberals are stupid so I disagree with them.

They want illegals to vote (yes they do, they already do in SF), and on and on and on.

Now you have AOC and other radicals being voted in. AOC isn't so frightening on her own, it's the fact that she and others like her got elected by Americans. That is scary to me.

The left have turned this young generation into a bunch of worthless douches that embrace socialist ideas, don't want to work or move out of their parents house.

So we can both be biased and say the other side is bad. Both sides are bad. Not sure how to end this post. People are generally equally stupid so it's hard to say which is worse. Probably neither.

Trumps election unhinged a lot of people.
TOTAL UNADULTERATED BULL. I love it when right wingers pretend to be something they're NOT.
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Old 9th March 2019, 02:59 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post


Trumps election unhinged a lot of people.
The only thing you got right in your own biased comment. The problem for you is that the people it unhinged were in the GOP and on the right of American politics.
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Old 9th March 2019, 02:59 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's interesting given Medicare has monthly premiums and copays.
I have a similar reaction to ideas to allow everyone to buy into Medicare. The feds Pat over 800 month for every person to be on an advantage plan. Who are these people that should buy into that?
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Old 9th March 2019, 04:19 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Don't blame yourself if you look it up and still don't understand it. The bill is insanely long, as it seeks to overhaul the entire Voter Rights Act, address gerrymandering, provide a voluntary system for campaign matching funds, overturn Citizens United, and broaden the requirements for reporting dark money in campaign spending.
A slightly disturbing failure to rank the issues and take them from the top, each with its own neat, clean, and easily presentable bill. This is the worst kind of committee-product.

Quote:
Not only that, but so far the only links in this thread are to partisan opinion pieces that decry the bill in the broadest terms without specifying exactly what about the bill they're for or against. In fact, they fail to explain how the bill's provisions would "chill" free speech. They just declare it.
To heck with chill, it'll gut the First Amendment. You know, the amendment the right will never forgive for making the Second Amendment first of the losers. The one which protects the Fake Hoaxmake ... Newselist people, bad people, very bad people, from the righteous wrath of President Trump, the elected President Trump, they're the puppets ... what was it now?


Quote:
And add to that the fact that the ACLU's position has been badly misrepresented. In fact, the ACLU supports the majority of the bill - including all of the voter registration stuff.
Yeah, but the other stuff simply guts the First Amendment. That's terminal, gutting. Gelding you can walk away from (metaphorically), but not a gutting. Turns out you really need all that tubing.


The rising hysteria of the right is a pleasure to watch.
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Old 9th March 2019, 09:58 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
You do realise that in Europe your "left" would seem to be very centrist. You really don't have serious left wing politics in the USA. Even Bernie Sanders and AOC are only advocating for policies Western Europe has espoused for decades. That doesn't sound like outrage and anger to me. It seems like a political philosophy. Just because it is in competition with a political philosophy on the right which seems to be dominated now by an extreme faction like Trump Supporters, the remnants of the Tea Party, the Koch Brothers and their ilk, White Supremacists and Fundamental Christians doesn't make progressive positions extreme.
Thank you.
I may quote this in another message board.
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Old 9th March 2019, 11:16 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
zoinks, loss leader, gotta thing about TBD? Where the **** did you get the idea that I would never answer?

Nothing in this ******* abortion of a bill, this disgusting wreck of idiocy that panders to people that have literally no idea what they are talking about should become law, and yes, loss leader that includes all those things you think can be surgically sliced off and saved.

You pretend the pandering leftist idiots will strip off something from the bill and think that they are going to TOTALLY OWN the Republicans who will have to explain something that is literally never going to happen because the rat ******* who wrote this abomination will never ever do that. Will you call out the Democrats and demand that they strip it out? Or are you just hypothetically owning the Republicans?

Say loss leader, I answered!

Sorry the For The People Act is such a third semester abortion, although I fully understand it if that appeals to leftists.
So.....nothing about what the bill actually does, and why you don't like it?

I understand that you think it's bad, but what is it?


ETA: And, I did read up a little on the bill. Campaign finance reform, I guess. The news story I read didn't have anything in it which out to involve the end of the first amendment as we know it, but maybe I missed something. Besides, the article I read was from the mainstream media, and those folks can't be trusted.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 9th March 2019 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 10th March 2019, 05:56 AM   #80
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So.....nothing about what the bill actually does, and why you don't like it?

I understand that you think it's bad, but what is it?
It's an "abortion", a "disgusting wreck of idiocy", the product of "pandering leftist idiots", what more do you need to know?


The right's rising hysteria is a treat to watch.
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