ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 27th March 2019, 07:20 PM   #41
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,422
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The irony of this is, everyone but me seems to want NASA to do more manned space missions. But as soon as the Trump administration announces such an intention, everyone turns into a manned space curmudgeon.

Figure it out, people.
Who's everybody? I sure as hell don't. And I know you know that as I have posted many times that I believe in a concentrating resources more in applied sciences and advancing our technological prowess.

Manned missions with the present state of technology is an enormous waste of money. They accomplish little science. I'd much rather we invest that money into molten salt nuclear reactors. Experiment with liquid fuel reactors. Funnel it into the National Research laboratories.

That said, there are people that disagree with me.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 07:39 PM   #42
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,422
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the moon in five years is ridiculous, but could not disagree more with your total disdain for the space program.
I suggest your read about all the spinoffs we got from the Apollo program.
Yes they did. And it's not that I have a disdain for the space program, because I don't. I just strongly believe there are science goals that need to be accomplished much much more.
I'm very familiar with some of the spin-offs from Apollo. You're talking to someone who grew up on Apollo and Gemini. I remember very well when 3 Astronauts burned alive on the launch pad. I watched live the lunar landing on July 20, 1969. (The date is etched forever in my brain because I had a poster hanging over my childhood bed with a picture that showed the lunar surface and earth on the horizon, the date and Neil's first words as he stepped onto the moon) I remember holding my breath as they called out the distances before touchdown.

But history offers very little insight of spinoffs from a future lunar landing. Solve the energy problem and the CO2 problem and I'll get a hell of a lot more excited about manned space exploration.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 07:57 PM   #43
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 5,422
The USA is perfectly capable of doing many sciencey things all at once: environment, energy AND space.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 07:59 PM   #44
thines
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 73
Waste of money.

Yes - we certainly capable of doing many sciency things at once. Like energy research, solving pollution problems, cancer research and seeing how much energy can be generated by burning 80 tons of hundred dollar bills. But there's no logical reason to waste money on a program that will return very little in the way of new knowledge just because we can do it.
thines is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 08:14 PM   #45
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,422
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The USA is perfectly capable of doing many sciencey things all at once: environment, energy AND space.
Yes, and its capable of providing universal healthcare and rebuilding our infrastructure and much much more. But priorities are always made. You can't have it all. At least not at the same time. There is a limited budget. Republicans remind us of that all the time. That is unless they're pushing for another tax break.

I'm not against space. But I am against manned space missions at this point. They offer very little bang for the buck. And we have very little money invested in developing a new generation of nuclear reactors. Do that first and come back to me afterward for money to go to the moon.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 08:25 PM   #46
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 5,422
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yes, and its capable of providing universal healthcare and rebuilding our infrastructure and much much more. But priorities are always made. You can't have it all. At least not at the same time. There is a limited budget. Republicans remind us of that all the time. That is unless they're pushing for another tax break.

I'm not against space. But I am against manned space missions at this point. They offer very little bang for the buck. And we have very little money invested in developing a new generation of nuclear reactors. Do that first and come back to me afterward for money to go to the moon.
They cancelled the manned Apollo flights to the moon in 1972 because "that was a thing we have done now and it is too expensive". Are there any different reasons now that would be different and more compelling to resume a program like that? Some reasons better than sending a whole bunch of cheaper, really smart droids like are being sent to Mars now?


Yes, I thought so too.

However revisiting the Moon is not the only space program. I think it is quite conceivable that a lot of much more profitable space-based programs should receive higher priority than that. But that does not mean "no space programs because Trump!"
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 08:26 PM   #47
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,670
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not against space. But I am against manned space missions at this point. They offer very little bang for the buck.

But consider how boring (and short!) The Martian would have been starring WALL-E instead of Matt Damon:

"BRING HIM HOME!"

'Why the hell would we do that? Leave that rust bucket there for ever!'
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 27th March 2019 at 08:27 PM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 08:30 PM   #48
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 30,492
Who the hell needs the moon anyway? Blow it up!
__________________
"Shemp, you are the one fixed point in an ever-changing universe." - Beady
"I don't want to live in a world without shemp." - Quarky
"Real name? Xavier Jorge Gladdius Horatio McShrimp. No wonder he goes by shemp." - wasapi
"...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 08:33 PM   #49
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 5,422
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Who the hell needs the moon anyway? Blow it up!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblivion_(2013_film)
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 08:40 PM   #50
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,422
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
They cancelled the manned Apollo flights to the moon in 1972 because "that was a thing we have done now and it is too expensive". Are there any different reasons now that would be different and more compelling to resume a program like that? Some reasons better than sending a whole bunch of cheaper, really smart droids like are being sent to Mars now?

Yes, I thought so too.

However revisiting the Moon is not the only space program. I think it is quite conceivable that a lot of much more profitable space-based programs should receive higher priority than that. But that does not mean "no space programs because Trump!"
You know what else they cancelled in the early 70s? The liquid fuel molten salt thorium reactor experiment. Despite how successful it had been. If it hadn't been cut who's to say that the world's energy problems wouldn't be solved by now. That's the kind of potential it has.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 08:42 PM   #51
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,422
Originally Posted by dann View Post
But consider how boring (and short!) The Martian would have been starring WALL-E instead of Matt Damon:

"BRING HIM HOME!"

'Why the hell would we do that? Leave that rust bucket there for ever!'
Great movies. Both of them.

But If You ask conservatives about The Martian, the would probably say "leave him there".
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 08:46 PM   #52
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,172
Without a larger plan, going to the moon is pretty pointless.
Building a test Space Elevator on it would be worthwhile endeavor - and feasible.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 08:47 PM   #53
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 5,422
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You know what else they cancelled in the early 70s? The liquid fuel molten salt thorium reactor experiment. Despite how successful it had been. If it hadn't been cut who's to say that the world's energy problems wouldn't be solved by now. That's the kind of potential it has.
I totally agree. But the reasons why molten salt reactor research went quiet were a lot different than the reasons for the space race going quiet.

But none of that detracts from my point: The USA is perfectly capable of doing more than one science experiment at a time.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 09:02 PM   #54
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,422
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I totally agree. But the reasons why molten salt reactor research went quiet were a lot different than the reasons for the space race going quiet.

But none of that detracts from my point: The USA is perfectly capable of doing more than one science experiment at a time.
I didn't say it wasn't. But I'm damn annoyed at how little is invested in solving the energy problem. For example, it's estimated that the US government has invested approximately since 1994 150 billion dollars solving the energy problem. We have spent more on NASA then that. Now tell me that makes sense. Where is the sense of urgency? If CO2 is really the problem they say it is, wtf are we doing?

Also, space exploration didn't go quiet. There were space shuttles, (I have a relative who died on the Challenger) the Hubble, the rover missions to Mars, the James Webb telescope and more.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 27th March 2019 at 09:18 PM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 09:15 PM   #55
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,422
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Without a larger plan, going to the moon is pretty pointless.
Building a test Space Elevator on it would be worthwhile endeavor - and feasible.
Everything I've read suggest that with present materials, the space elevator idea is not feasible. That it might be with some breakthroughs.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 09:18 PM   #56
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 5,422
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I didn't say it wasn't. But I'm damn annoyed at how little is invested in solving the energy problem. For example, it's estimated that the US government has invested approximately since 1994 150 billion dollars solving the energy problem. We have spent more on NASA then that. Now tell me that makes sense. Where is the sense of urgency? If CO2 is really the problem they say it is, wtf are we doing?
Yep, totally agree. Just that you get numpties who say that CO2 is a good thing - it makes drinks fizzy so what harm could it do!
Quote:
“It’s CO2 we are talking about: it’s what turns water into soda water, its what makes chardonnay into champagne,” he said derisively, before claiming that the consensus view among the world’s scientists that the planet was warming was wrong.
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...-party-members


Quote:
Also, space exploration didn't go quiet. There were space shuttles, (I have a relative who died on the Challenger) the Hubble. The rover missions to Mars, the James Webb telescope and more.
I meant that we have been no higher than LEO since the last Apollo mission.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 09:19 PM   #57
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,172
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Everything I've read suggest that with present materials, the space elevator idea is not feasible. That it might be with some breakthroughs.
Not on Earth - but it is on the Moon, because gravity is so low and the tether would be quite short.
Also, the consequences of failure would be minimal.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 09:22 PM   #58
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 26,448
Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
The Selenites will pay for it.
A hit. A palpable hit.

Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Okay, are we starting a pool on when Trump proclaims, "No one knew going to the Moon could be so complicated!"
Pffft. Who cares about that. I want to know when he pulls out his we’ve-already-built-lots-of-the-wall schtick by saying “a lot of our astronauts are already on the way.”
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

Last edited by Ladewig; 27th March 2019 at 09:23 PM.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 09:28 PM   #59
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,422
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Yep, totally agree. Just that you get numpties who say that CO2 is a good thing - it makes drinks fizzy so what harm could it do!
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...-party-members


I meant that we have been no higher than LEO since the last Apollo mission.
Which is true. But putting humans into space doesnt really make much sense outside of the pub it gets. Which is its real value. It sparks the imagination and I dont want to discount the value of that. It inspires people to go into the sciences.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 09:29 PM   #60
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,422
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Not on Earth - but it is on the Moon, because gravity is so low and the tether would be quite short.
Also, the consequences of failure would be minimal.

That sounds cool. But it also sounds super expensive. How many missions to the moon would that require? Just transporting the cable for the elevator let alone the equipment seems impossible.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 27th March 2019 at 09:33 PM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2019, 10:16 PM   #61
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I didn't say it wasn't. But I'm damn annoyed at how little is invested in solving the energy problem. For example, it's estimated that the US government has invested approximately since 1994 150 billion dollars solving the energy problem. We have spent more on NASA then that. Now tell me that makes sense. Where is the sense of urgency? If CO2 is really the problem they say it is, wtf are we doing?
Use less energy. Much less. Energy problem solved.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 01:00 AM   #62
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,985
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Someone should suggest Trump think bigger. Which planet's the biggest? Jupiter! Who's the most important man in history? Trump! Therefore Trump should have NASA send him to Jupiter! Within six months. Let's work together to make this happen! I've been wary of Trump before now but I really think I'd come to love him once he's striding around the surface of Jupiter, being great.
"The Marching Morons" comes to mind.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 01:18 AM   #63
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 31,023
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Which is true. But putting humans into space doesnt really make much sense outside of the pub it gets.

They tried opening a pub there, but it wasn’t a success.

No atmosphere.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 01:22 AM   #64
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 31,023
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Pffft. Who cares about that. I want to know when he pulls out his we’ve-already-built-lots-of-the-wall schtick by saying “a lot of our astronauts are already on the way.”

“We have to get them to the moon to stop the migrant caravan that’s on its way there. National emergency!”
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 01:54 AM   #65
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 12,323
If they were planning to set up an ice-mining operation on the moon, I'd be on board. Just sending some people to go for a walk? Not very interesting.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 02:02 AM   #66
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,172
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If they were planning to set up an ice-mining operation on the moon, I'd be on board. Just sending some people to go for a walk? Not very interesting.
right.
Send it back to earth, bottle it and sell it as Moon WaterTM.
Quick way to finance Mars colonization.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 02:19 AM   #67
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 12,323
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
right.
Send it back to earth, bottle it and sell it as Moon WaterTM.
Quick way to finance Mars colonization.
Perfect! I was thinking of using either solar or nuclear power to split it into hydrogen and oxygen for use as rocket fuel, but your idea is even better.

Once we get to Mars we can start mining it for rocks that can be used to build houses on earth, in order to fund the real goal of going to Jupiter get helium for helium balloons.

(does Jupiter have any helium?)
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 03:26 AM   #68
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,401
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The USA is perfectly capable of doing many sciencey things all at once: environment, energy AND space.
Sure, but not with republican in any control of the government. The energy industry overrides the first two off the bat to start with.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 04:19 AM   #69
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 17,988
I will just say that if the Trump administration doesn't think the government has enough money to fund the Special Olympics, then it absolutely cannot afford manned space missions.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 05:24 AM   #70
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,111
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
NASA seems to super excited about it. You should check out their Moon to Mars web page.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The irony of this is, everyone but me seems to want NASA to do more manned space missions. But as soon as the Trump administration announces such an intention, everyone turns into a manned space curmudgeon.

Figure it out, people.

It's a bit like the negotiations with North Korea, actually. I approve of the basic concept, but have no faith in Trump's ability to actually carry it out, and doing a bad job of it will be worse than just doing nothing at all, and waiting for someone competent to take on the job.

Do you really think Trump understands even 1% of what would be needed to make this happen at all, let alone in just five years? When they're slashing education budgets to pay for their trillion dollar tax cuts, do you really think they're going to pony up the hundred billion dollars or so this will take?

The first time some nerd tries to tell him they really do need thousands of ground personnel to put three guys on the Moon, you know he's going to go off on a rant, and fire everybody.



Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Who the hell needs the moon anyway? Blow it up!
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Should have gone with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdT2HqoV198

__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 05:25 AM   #71
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,067
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I will just say that if the Trump administration doesn't think the government has enough money to fund the Special Olympics, then it absolutely cannot afford manned space missions.
The principle seems to be that there's plenty of money available for any project that hurts people, but none for any project that helps people. So we must figure out who we're hurting by going to the moon again. Then the expense will be justifiable.

I don't see why repeating an achievement we did sixty years ago is particularly urgent or worthy of pride, but I guess history lauds the second trip up the same mountain by the same person who climbed it first, right?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 05:30 AM   #72
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,160
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
His colorful orange complexion will fit right in with that landscape.
He might end up eating the damned thing.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward



Last edited by Belz...; 28th March 2019 at 07:12 AM.
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 05:47 AM   #73
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,620
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the moon in five years is ridiculous, but could not disagree more with your total disdain for the space program.
I suggest your read about all the spinoffs we got from the Apollo program.
Apple, certainly, made a lot of money out of the space program, I understand.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 06:08 AM   #74
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,620
A space elevator on the moon is so much less useful than one on earth. SSTO-ing off the moon is super easy compared to doing so off earth so there's less to be gained.


So, in some far future:

There's a fully reusable LEO crew vehicle - Something like the X37B on top of something like a falcon heavy.

There's an automated mining station on the moon pulling H2O out of the ground and turning it into H and O2 for rocket fuel.

There's an orbital dockyard in a high LEO orbit building stuff to go to the moon and mars.

There's a refueling waypoint, at L1 (I may have the wrong L point here), serviced by the lunar fueling station.

So, at this point large things can be built in orbit, with Big, dumb rockets only used to ship up the big parts. There's a bundle of fuel available that doesn't have to be exploded out of Earth's gravity well and there's a waypoint to hang out at while you're waiting for your transfer window.


All this is fairly optimistic but not, at least, physically impossible.

None of it needs people though.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 28th March 2019 at 06:11 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 06:16 AM   #75
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,172
A moon elevator would still be massively useful.
Just to learn how to build an operate one for starters.

But once the Moon starts producing fuel, not having to waste it on starting and landing will pay off.
There is a rather comprehensive Wiki article about it.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 06:22 AM   #76
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,111
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't see why repeating an achievement we did sixty years ago is particularly urgent or worthy of pride, but I guess history lauds the second trip up the same mountain by the same person who climbed it first, right?

It's a perfect, fail-proof plan for Trump: Do the same thing we did earlier, just Bigger! And Better! And with "Trump!" painted on the side! And all the interiors decorated with tacky gold leaf!

I'm reminded of a quote that was alleged to have been written in someone's annual review: "He sets low personal standards and then consistently fails to achieve them." He's planning to do what we've already done, but will likely screw it up anyways.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 06:28 AM   #77
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,620
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A moon elevator would still be massively useful.
I would posit that the usefulness of a space elevator diminishes relative to the mass of the body one is trying to leave.


Quote:
Just to learn how to build an operate one for starters.
I don't think a space elevator on Earth is ever going to happen. There are just too many issues to overcome.

One on Mars might be useful. I think I remember reading that current materials tech might be able to cope with the tension. I also think I remember reading that Phobos would be below the height of the elevator.


Quote:
But once the Moon starts producing fuel, not having to waste it on starting and landing will pay off.
If the fuel's right there, it's less of a waste and there's less incentive to come up with another solution.

Quote:
There is a rather comprehensive Wiki article about it.

I shall have a read.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 06:35 AM   #78
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,721
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post


I meant that we have been no higher than LEO since the last Apollo mission.
Sending a couple of individual humans - a tiny fraction of humanity - somewhere isn't the ultimate in being there, in my opinion.

If putting Neil Armstrong on the moon entitles you to claim "we" have been there, then so does every probe sent anywhere in the solar system.

Humans are tool users. Our tools extend our reach and our grasp. Where our tools go, we go.

And humans are abstract thinkers. A dog lacks the imagination to say "we dogs have been to space." Only the individual dogs who actually went to space have been there.

I think that insisting it only counts if an individual human goes there, overlooks what humanity is, and ignores what makes human exploration significant.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 06:55 AM   #79
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,721
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Not on Earth - but it is on the Moon, because gravity is so low and the tether would be quite short.

Also, the consequences of failure would be minimal.
Unless your destination is the Moon , once you're off Earth, the Moon is a wasteful delay on your journey.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 06:59 AM   #80
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,160
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Use less energy. Much less. Energy problem solved.
Good luck with that plan.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:33 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.