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Tags donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:41 AM   #721
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
First of all, they are not concentration camps in the usual use of the word. If they are concentration camps, then every nation on Earth has them - they are called jails and prisons.

Second, detention for pending asylee cases is more than just "not illegal" it is, as I cited, mandated by statute.
However, even if that is true, recent cases suggest that the conditions under which people are held, especially children separated from their families, are worse than prisons, and that even if the holding is legal, the manner of holding is not only illegal but contrary to previous court judgments. In a case now before the courts in Texas, where children are held in a windowless warehouse, the government is alleging that the requirement of "safe and sanitary" conditions does not require them to provide bedding, soap or tooth paste.

https://www.courthousenews.com/feds-...-without-soap/
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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:52 AM   #722
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Meanwhile, obstructing a federal investigation into election tampering is a "process crime."

Anyone hoping for a flash of reason to suddenly take hold (or for Republicans to work with a centrist on this issue), I have bad news for you...
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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:53 AM   #723
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Please point out the line item in the budget for the Zyklon B.
Concentration camps started in 1933.


You're thinking of death camps.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:56 AM   #724
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
The allegation related to the simple existence of the detention facilities and was not related to allegations of substandard conditions.
The facilities referred to are not providing what the law requires them to provide.

You can keep changing some aspect of your objection, it makes no difference. The detention centers, as they currently exist, are illegal.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:57 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
This violates the legally mandated process for dealing with asylum applicants. As I said, you can't just stroll up to the port, yell asylum, and then expect to get released and get a hearing date. There is an interview. The whole process takes time.



So no, that is not an alternative.
The AG has the discretionary power to make such adjustments.

They can detain, yes, but they can also release with a hearing date.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:03 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Nice strawman there. No one has accused the administration of creating death camps.
But "death camps" are the equivalent of "concentration camps" in the usual use of the word. I've never seen anyone correct the use of "concentration camps" when a mention is made of the Soviets liberating Auschwitz.

Again, if the US is running :concentration camps" then so is every other nation on Earth and the term no longer has any negative meaning.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:04 AM   #727
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Jesus Christ someone dust off the "technically speaking" award and give it to Grizzly so we can move on.

And no even beyond that your excuse is B.S. "Every country in the world" is not keeping children in cages for months.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:12 AM   #728
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The facilities referred to are not providing what the law requires them to provide.

You can keep changing some aspect of your objection, it makes no difference. The detention centers, as they currently exist, are illegal.
My objection is the same as it has always been. Detention facilities for asylee claimants are not unlawful, and detention of those claimants is not only lawful but mandatory.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The AG has the discretionary power to make such adjustments.

They can detain, yes, but they can also release with a hearing date.
Remember that class you had yesterday on statutory citation? Well the lessons you started to learn (but did not master) continue to apply.

But let me do your work for you. You appear to be confusing the initial determination of whether or not the applicant has a credible fear with the process that follows if it is determined that he does have a credible fear. Detention is mandatory until a determination of credible fear has been made. If there is a credible fear, the applicant can be released pending a decision on his claim. If there is not a credible fear, the applicant shall be removed. The support for this is in 8 USC 1225, like my initial citation.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:13 AM   #729
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Christ someone dust off the "technically speaking" award and give it to Grizzly so we can move on.

And no even beyond that your excuse is B.S. "Every country in the world" is not keeping children in cages for months.
Fine. Release them into the desert. Not sure how that is better, but you're the boss.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:27 AM   #730
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
My objection is the same as it has always been. Detention facilities for asylee claimants are not unlawful, and detention of those claimants is not only lawful but mandatory.


Remember that class you had yesterday on statutory citation? Well the lessons you started to learn (but did not master) continue to apply.

But let me do your work for you. You appear to be confusing the initial determination of whether or not the applicant has a credible fear with the process that follows if it is determined that he does have a credible fear. Detention is mandatory until a determination of credible fear has been made. If there is a credible fear, the applicant can be released pending a decision on his claim. If there is not a credible fear, the applicant shall be removed. The support for this is in 8 USC 1225, like my initial citation.
Can you please cite specifically where it says they must be detained? Your cites are generic.

It's something like B iv, but it's hard keeping track on the link you sent.

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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:34 AM   #731
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
My objection is the same as it has always been. Detention facilities for asylee claimants are not unlawful, and detention of those claimants is not only lawful but mandatory.
Wrong and wrong.





Quote:
Remember that class you had yesterday on statutory citation? Well the lessons you started to learn (but did not master) continue to apply.
There was no class, I learned no lesson from you.

The adjustments are in TITLE 8. This was part of the amendments made in 1991 to the 1986 law. Prior to that, Reagan operated such policies by executive order (which Obama was accused of, but nope it's actually the law as it stands).



Quote:
But let me do your work for you. You appear to be confusing the initial determination of whether or not the applicant has a credible fear with the process that follows if it is determined that he does have a credible fear. Detention is mandatory until a determination of credible fear has been made. If there is a credible fear, the applicant can be released pending a decision on his claim. If there is not a credible fear, the applicant shall be removed. The support for this is in 8 USC 1225, like my initial citation.
I'm not confusing anything, you're just incapable of admitting you're wrong or engaging in the subject matter without smug insults and bluster.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:34 AM   #732
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Can you please cite specifically where it says they must be detained? Your cites are generic.

It's something like B iv, but it's hard keeping track on the link you sent.
I already quoted the exact words of the statute two pages ago.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:45 AM   #733
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
I already quoted the exact words of the statute two pages ago.
That isn't going to stop me from asking for the specific sub heading.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:59 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Fine. Release them into the desert. Not sure how that is better, but you're the boss.
Or we could treat them with basic levels of human dignity and respect. Crazy concept I know.

Listen, since I can already sense you salivating at the either/or strawman you're gonna use, we're not talking about the immigration/asylum/refugee process being unpleasant or boring or tedious or whatever.

If this was just a case of long wait times, endless boring waiting rooms that smell of stale coffee and impatience, stuffy and half competent bureaucrats wanting every form filled out again and all the other charming attributes that come along with dealing with the US government and anybody of any political stripe was trying to make some sort of huge human rights deal out of that, my eye roll would be so hard you could use it a cheap energy source.

Stuffing kids in cages, have ******* 4 years old defend themselves in court, and having people literally die in custody from lack of basic amenities is none of that. It's inexcusable.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 09:02 AM   #735
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Stuffing kids in cages, have ******* 4 years old defend themselves in court, and having people literally die in custody from lack of basic amenities is none of that. It's inexcusable.
What? Even if those kids, or perhaps their parents, committed misdemeanors?

Can we throw toddlers into cages if they aren’t white? That’s okay, right?
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Old 23rd June 2019, 09:33 AM   #736
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Coddle the damned kids with soap and next thing you know they're going to want flush toilets. What's next? Windows? No stopping the slide if you let it start.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 09:41 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
If you need me to cite where the right to due process comes from, then you don't belong in this conversation.
What process is due in this case?
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Old 23rd June 2019, 09:55 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
What? Even if those kids, or perhaps their parents, committed misdemeanors?

Can we throw toddlers into cages if they aren’t white? That’s okay, right?
They already do that in Australia, and in Europe, they're content to let the Mediterranean take in all the kids, and their parents. I mean, if you wanted America to be more like the developed world, your wish has been granted.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 10:22 AM   #739
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
But "death camps" are the equivalent of "concentration camps" in the usual use of the word. I've never seen anyone correct the use of "concentration camps" when a mention is made of the Soviets liberating Auschwitz.

Again, if the US is running :concentration camps" then so is every other nation on Earth and the term no longer has any negative meaning.
Then you're not well educated on the topic. Even the Nazis drew a distinction between the two. You're simply trying to create a false equivalency between the two as a means to avoid facing reality. The stupid bitch in the Whitehouse and his treasonous thugs are running concentration camps. While not death camps (though deaths have occurred to no great concern of those running them) they still are concentration camps.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 12:22 PM   #740
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It's only a "Concentration Camp" if it comes from the German providence of Kozentrant. Otherwise it's "Sparkling Detention Center."
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Old 23rd June 2019, 12:28 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Then you're not well educated on the topic. Even the Nazis drew a distinction between the two. You're simply trying to create a false equivalency between the two as a means to avoid facing reality. The stupid bitch in the Whitehouse and his treasonous thugs are running concentration camps. While not death camps (though deaths have occurred to no great concern of those running them) they still are concentration camps.
By that standard, the Wise and Mature and Civilised European Union is running concentration camps in North Africa, and Australia is running similar facilities in Manus Island.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 12:31 PM   #742
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
By that standard, the Wise and Mature and Civilised European Union is running concentration camps in North Africa, and Australia is running similar facilities in Manus Island.
Oh well that makes it okay then.

"But da librusl luuuurve the EU and everything they do has to be okay with them!" is stupid even by "gotcha" standards, and this coming from someone who is on record as finding the American's left continued genuflection of Europe growing stale a long time ago.

As some point I'd like the world's last remaining superpower to start judging itself based on what the right thing to do is.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 12:33 PM   #743
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's only a "Concentration Camp" if it comes from the German providence of Kozentrant. Otherwise it's "Sparkling Detention Center."
just beautiful ...


nominated

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Old 23rd June 2019, 04:02 PM   #744
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
But "death camps" are the equivalent of "concentration camps" in the usual use of the word. I've never seen anyone correct the use of "concentration camps" when a mention is made of the Soviets liberating Auschwitz.

Again, if the US is running :concentration camps" then so is every other nation on Earth and the term no longer has any negative meaning.
I think you're mistaken in the order of things and how a subset works. A death camp is a kind of concentration camp, but a concentration camp is not a kind of death camp. The term predates the Nazi era death camps by many years and wars.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 04:30 PM   #745
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
By that standard, the Wise and Mature and Civilised European Union is running concentration camps in North Africa, and Australia is running similar facilities in Manus Island.
If International Law were real, and crimes against humanity were a true thing, Australia would have been conquered, occupied, and completely restructured by now.

Nobody is gonna do mass exterminations in the Information age. Nowadays it's all about having a remote desert island for stashing undesirables. The US has to make do with detention camps.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 05:03 PM   #746
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
First of all, they are not concentration camps in the usual use of the word. If they are concentration camps, then every nation on Earth has them - they are called jails and prisons.
Firstly, yes they are, since crossing the border in search of asylum is not illegal, which means that none of these detainees is even suspected of a crime, let alone guilty of one.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 05:04 PM   #747
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
By that standard, the Wise and Mature and Civilised European Union is running concentration camps in North Africa, and Australia is running similar facilities in Manus Island.
In fact they are, particularly as to what Australia is doing. We can enforce our immigration laws and not sacrifice our humanity in the process. There are things we can do in between what the Stupid Bitch in Chief is doing and open borders.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:24 PM   #748
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That isn't going to stop me from asking for the specific sub heading.
It should, because the specific citation was there also.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:32 PM   #749
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Stuffing kids in cages,
I believe they are only "stuffed" there for up to three weeks. Then they are released when arrangements for their care have been made.

Quote:
and having people literally die in custody from lack of basic amenities
Who has died "from lack of basic amenities?"
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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:34 PM   #750
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Then you're not well educated on the topic.
Please provide evidence of people being corrected on this in normal, non-academic conversation.

Quote:
stupid bitch in the Whitehouse and his treasonous thugs are running concentration camps. While not death camps (though deaths have occurred to no great concern of those running them) they still are concentration camps.
Fine, then every nation on Earth has concentration camps.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:37 PM   #751
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Firstly, yes they are, since crossing the border in search of asylum is not illegal, which means that none of these detainees is even suspected of a crime, let alone guilty of one.
Illegally crossing the border (such as crossing at a place other than a port of entry, which thousands are doing) to claim asylum is, in fact, illegal. Presenting yourself at a port of entry in order to claim asylum is not illegal, but there is still a process to endure, which takes time and manpower.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:54 PM   #752
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
But "death camps" are the equivalent of "concentration camps" in the usual use of the word.
Only if you are historically impaired. All Death Camps are Concentration Camps. While not all Concentration Camps are Death Camps.

The now-being-reused Japanese Internment Camps were decidedly Concentration Camps, they were a very bad for the US to use. But only a handful of hysterics declare them to be death camps.

Quote:
I've never seen anyone correct the use of "concentration camps" when a mention is made of the Soviets liberating Auschwitz.
Then you haven't been looking very hard.

Quote:
Again, if the US is running :concentration camps" then so is every other nation on Earth and the term no longer has any negative meaning.
Not even wrong.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 06:59 PM   #753
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
I believe they are only "stuffed" there for up to three weeks. Then they are released when arrangements for their care have been made.
I'm trying to find a way within the MA to honestly relay my opinion of a person for whom when they are informed children are being kept in cages their response is "Yeah but only for up to three weeks."

I will continue to do so.


Quote:
Who has died "from lack of basic amenities?"
Don't play dumb.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 07:04 PM   #754
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm trying to find a way within the MA to honestly relay my opinion of a person for whom when they are informed children are being kept in cages their response is "Yeah but only for up to three weeks."

I will continue to do so.
I am reminded of one Bush II defender on this board who stated that the since the New Orleans citizens in the Superdome in the Katrina aftermath only went without fresh water and food for ‘only a few days’ that Bush & Brownie’s efforts should have been lauded.

Cruelty seems to be the point.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:00 PM   #755
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Illegally crossing the border (such as crossing at a place other than a port of entry, which thousands are doing) to claim asylum is, in fact, illegal. Presenting yourself at a port of entry in order to claim asylum is not illegal, but there is still a process to endure, which takes time and manpower.
I'd like to see your evidence that the majority or even a reasonable bulk of the populations of these concentration camps who were seeking asylum, crossed at a place other than a port of entry. Because it was certainly my impression otherwise; that the vast overwhelming majority of these asylum claimants crossed at ports of entry and surrendered immediately to the Border Patrol, considering that was the whole point of their journey.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:02 PM   #756
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
The now-being-reused Japanese Internment Camps were decidedly Concentration Camps, they were a very bad for the US to use.
Indeed; and remember that these particular concentration camps are the ones which Reagan famously apologized for and said we must never allow to happen again.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:26 PM   #757
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The arguments that racists use to justify Trump's concentration camps are amazing.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 10:48 PM   #758
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The Trump Reich apologists don't seem to care that their country is becoming even more of a pariah among the developed nations. Newer and long-standing matters that amaze and concern:

The breaking of treaties (the Iran nuclear deal being the best example); the tariff shenanigans; the pissing off of allies; the pandering to despots, the corralling of non-criminal people into camps; the grotesque proportion of citizenry in prisons; the lack of affordable health care for all; the mindlessly fetishistic love of guns; the general retreat into isolationism (except when rattling sabers).

We see too many remnants of an unevolved society that has not yet sloughed off the frontiersman's conquering grasp, the slave owner's subjugation, and the Cold War-induced irrational fear of anything "social."
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Old 24th June 2019, 01:40 AM   #759
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
By that standard, the Wise and Mature and Civilised European Union is running concentration camps in North Africa, and Australia is running similar facilities in Manus Island.
I'm less well versed on the EU camps you mention but, yeah, Australia has been running a very large concentration camp for a number of years now. And it has pissed off a lot of people including myself.
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Old 24th June 2019, 03:18 AM   #760
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Please provide evidence of people being corrected on this in normal, non-academic conversation.


Fine, then every nation on Earth has concentration camps.
Wow, your supply of straw must be massive to create all those strawmen. Certainly nearly every nation has prisons run to varying degrees of human rights standards. They don't all run concentration camps.

Careful you don't hyperextend your elbow when you go to the rally and salute your Trumpenfureher.
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