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4th July 2019, 02:53 PM | #1 |
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
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Republicans mired in death cult
Some of the language in the article tends toward the inflammatory, but it's pretty accurate overall. I grew up in Evangelical Christian communities in the '70s and '80s, and was involved in them through most of the '90s, before I finally saw them for what they were (the old JREF forum was very helpful in that regard, although I'd already begun to discard the theology by that point). My parents were (and are) staunch Republicans as well, and I saw a lot of what is described in the article close up (although, again, I had started to discard GOP politics and was involved in libertarianism before it was taken over, first by Randroids then the alt.right, which itself is closely tied to the death cults).
Apocalypse Now: Why Republicans Are Destroying the World Excerpt:
Quote:
This is not hyperbole. I went to these churches, and this is exactly the sort of stuff that is being preached. And I'm not talking the little little backwoods hicktown one-room churches of the stereotype; these were the huge megachurches ranging from tens of thousands to millions of members who all collaborate and conspire together to spread this doctrine of hate and self-indulgence. Starting with the Assemblies of God, and graduating to the hardcore Evangelical televangelists like Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Casey Treat, Kenneth Copeland, and on and on. These were the founders of the church networks that my family and I belonged to, and the backbone of the Evangelical believer base that elected Trump and his cronies, that elected the undisguised racists in federal and state government, and tried to elect a dead pimp in Nevada and a child molester in Alabama. Excerpt:
Quote:
The theology of Dispensationalism is complicated, but can be effectively summed up as G-D making different rules for different times, and as we are now in the end times, believers are no longer bound by the rules of love and compassion as they once were, but by a more elitist, militaristic separatist theology. A theology that dovetails very nicely with existing racist and anti-Semitic worldviews. Excerpt:
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The author's explanation of the history of Dispensationalism is, while sensationalist in its wording, essentially correct, and very details. I highly recommend reading it. The upshot of it all is that that religious worldview, starting in Nixon's time, rapidly came to define the politics of the Republican party. Not going to quote from the rest of the article, since it's hard to do so in the sort of "sound bite" form that is so popular here and elsewhere. It gets very detailed in the progression from Dispensationalist theologians, to the believers in this theology taking over leadership of the GOP, and their efforts to implement this worldview world-wide. |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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4th July 2019, 03:12 PM | #2 |
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I'd say America is going to resemble Brazil more and more in the decades to come, who have an evangelical fascist as President BTW.
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4th July 2019, 03:32 PM | #3 |
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That's a long article, and it's going to take me a while to read it all. But the thing that continues to amaze me is that the evangelical rank-and-file believe whole-heartedly that Trump is one of them. He's no more a Christian than I am, and certainly not of that sort. Evangelical leadership, of course, can see that; but are happy to use him to further their own ends just as he uses them to further his.
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4th July 2019, 03:40 PM | #4 |
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Yeah, the reaction of the Evangelical rank-and-file to Trump is... complicated. Some fully accept him as a sort of quasi-messiah, and those tend to be of the more racist, anti-LGBTQ sort. Some do not necessarily buy into his claim to be Christian; but still support him because they believe that he is "chosen by God", and therefore "serves God's purpose" and should not be questioned, even if the man himself doesn't come up to their exacting moral standards (my mother is one of these).
Quote:
Given that the bulk of the Evangelical leadership these days are mere con artists, they are more than willing to accept Trump as one of them. |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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4th July 2019, 03:52 PM | #5 |
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
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Unfortunately, helping these sons-of-bitches get to heaven faster isn't legal. But I'd be quite happy if they'd all drop dead so the rest of us can get on with ensuring a long future for mankind.
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Being the victim of genocidal atrocities does not give you free reign to commit your own genocidal atrocities. When Republican politicians were young, they were the kids who watched James Bond movies and said "I want to grow up to be just like [insert name of villain here]." |
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4th July 2019, 04:35 PM | #8 |
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4th July 2019, 05:09 PM | #9 |
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I think it was around the early presidency of Bush Jr. where I learned of this stuff. Christian conservatives backing the US's support/protection of Israel because they needed the Jews to control that region in order for the Rapture to come. While insane, I shrugged it off because almost all politicians, especially those claiming religious beliefs, end up being the biggest hypocrites. They seem to use religion and single issue votes to build a support base of the most easily duped public, rather than actually hold moralistic beliefs. I suspect many Republicans and even Democrats who claim to be religious, are actually atheists/agnostics who believe in Capitalism above all else. Of all the politicians, who don't openly identify as atheist/agnostic (which is few if any), Trump is the fakest religious person of them all.
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4th July 2019, 05:45 PM | #10 |
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I am guessing that, like most people, if he has any religious convictions (who knows?) they are probably based on the church that he grew up in. In his case, they would be based on the cult of positive thinking of Norman Vincent Pearle. I'm assuming that such convictions (if they exist) would be very different from those of the folk referred to in the OP's article.
Mainly, he's a conman (and the Christian Right doesn't care). |
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4th July 2019, 06:31 PM | #11 |
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It's certainly nothing I'm hearing for the first time.
But for a country with so many end-times fantasists, we really don't have much stomach for full-blown war. The public soured on Iraq pretty quickly. Does anyone think another Vietnam would be tolerated in this era? I don't, and I hope I'm right. |
4th July 2019, 06:34 PM | #12 |
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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4th July 2019, 06:57 PM | #13 |
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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5th July 2019, 01:17 AM | #14 |
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This article sums up why Trumpists shouldn't be pandered to in an effort to win them over, nor should they be treated as a viable alternative. They need to be repressed and shut out of politics through any means necessary. These people will destroy the world if able.
Democrats need to win back the Presidency in 2020, but that won't be enough. They also need to win locally in the states and districts and then abuse gerrymandering like the GOP has in order to completely shut the Trumpists out of any possibility of gaining power. SCOTUS has said they won't do anything about political gerrymandering, so Democrats and other patriots need to step up to the plate. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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5th July 2019, 07:20 AM | #15 |
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If they could see they were being manipulated by a charismatic leader for their own goals then they wouldn't be evangelicals.
Trump is just another old testament God to them. And, as you noted, despite the fact that Trump can't walk past a church without bursting into flames he's gotten them within walking distance of turning America into a theocracy. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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7th July 2019, 01:08 PM | #16 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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Here is a much more sensible analysis of why evangelicals support Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...cal-supporters
The rapture nonsense is a handy red herring to cover the overt racism and misogyny. I'm sure some believe it, but probably fewer than believe Obama is actually an alien lizard. |
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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7th July 2019, 04:23 PM | #17 |
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I'm guessing you actually didn't read the article in the OP, because the highlighted bit is actually a very large part of its point, although it's not quite accurate. Dominionist Christianity has always been extremely racist and misogynist; but that's doesn't mean that the rank and file are not also True Believers. Having grown up in those churches, I can say that the membership, at least, are very much believers in the Rapture and the End Times, and all the nonsense surrounding it. That doesn't make the racism and misogyny and other forms of bigotry any less potent, that's been a profound part of any politicized form of Christianity in this nation, going back to well-before its most blatant manifestation in Confederate states' religious propaganda. |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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7th July 2019, 04:34 PM | #18 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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You guessed wrong, and it's not the first time I've seen the premise, and while it highlights the racism and misogyny, your thread concentrates on the rapture. They believe in it, but the number who actually think trump is part of that endgame is vanishingly small, and completely irrelevant.
What I find most amusing is that the same story in reverse went around a few years ago as why ISIS rose so quickly. It was bollocks then as well. |
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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7th July 2019, 05:41 PM | #19 |
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Five bucks says that when the Whore of Babylon shows up she'll be in the witness stand with a stack of Trump's credit card receipts.
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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7th July 2019, 05:55 PM | #20 |
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7th July 2019, 06:24 PM | #21 |
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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8th July 2019, 07:07 AM | #22 |
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You mean irrelevant aside from the fact that they got him elected? In 2016 white Evangelical voters turned out in record numbers, over 80% of registered white Evangelical voters numbering in the millions turned out to vote, up from an average of around 60%. White Evangelicals constitute over a quarter (26%) of American voters. That is far from irrelevant, that is a huge political force. And they voted almost exclusively for Trump. I'm also guessing that you haven't spent much of your life in Evangelical churches, or have substantial numbers of family in those churches. Your problem here is that you think that their racism and misogyny can be separated from their "End Times" beliefs. They can't, they are part and parcel of the same thing -- a broad, "chosen people" elitism that goes well beyond anything supported in Scripture. It's the same elitism that was used by Confederacy supporters to justify slavery, with a strong milleniallist component that has been incorporated over the last century. Mix elitism with millenialism, throw in a politician willing to actively pander to that worldview, and you have a recipe for a great deal of irrationality and cognitive dissonance. It was painfully evident during the 2016 campaign to anyone whose head wasn't firmly lodged under a very large rock. Millenialism was very much in evidence in Evangelical voting to anyone familiar enough with the community. It informed nearly all of their reasons for supporting Trump and the other far-right candidates; from climate change, to control of the Supreme Court. |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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8th July 2019, 08:37 AM | #23 |
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The state of "new conservative" / evangelical / Republican America has often been compared to the Five Stages of Grief:
- plenty of under-educated / rural Americans simply refuse to accept that their idea of the American Dream doesn't exist anymore, if it ever had. - those who realize that are angered by it, and will vote for a Trump or similar to spread their anger far any wide - then there are those who are depressed by the fact of their changing prospects, and turn to drugs - professionals who have long ago seen the demographic reversal have bargained by hacking the judicial, educational and political system via gerrymandering and groups like The Federalist Society, in effect safeguarding outsized influence in a country in which their support keeps shrinking. - very few have accepted the new realities, but are waiting for the rest of the GOP leadership to die off so that an actual re-orientation of US conservatism can happen. |
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8th July 2019, 11:12 AM | #24 | ||
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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8th July 2019, 01:03 PM | #25 |
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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8th July 2019, 05:57 PM | #26 |
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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8th July 2019, 06:27 PM | #27 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Uh, yeah, it's the topic of the thread. It's also important.
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9th July 2019, 01:19 PM | #28 |
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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9th July 2019, 02:09 PM | #29 |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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9th July 2019, 06:39 PM | #30 |
Nasty Woman
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9th July 2019, 07:11 PM | #31 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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9th July 2019, 08:16 PM | #32 |
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9th July 2019, 08:40 PM | #33 |
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The "rapture" is not a cult at all. It's not an organisation of any kind, loose or otherwise.
The "rapture" is the event where believers are bodily taken in to Heaven. Various churches believe in it to varying degrees, mostly on the evangelical side. If you wanted to reeeeeealy stretch the definition of "cult", you could say that some of these churches may be described as cults, but you cannot - you absolutely cannot - say that the rapture itself is a cult, any more than you can say that a car crash is a school. |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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9th July 2019, 08:59 PM | #34 |
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Con-artist Preachers make money off making people fear the coming Rapture - which sounds like the core Cult business to me.
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9th July 2019, 09:07 PM | #35 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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9th July 2019, 09:14 PM | #36 |
Maledictorian
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that sounds more like kidnapping/extortion than a necessary component of a Cult.
I would put "disregard all information not coming from me" and "break contact with everyone who disagrees with me" as the defining features of a Cult, both behavior End-Time predictors are known for. |
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“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
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9th July 2019, 09:24 PM | #37 |
Observer of Phenomena
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Those are indeed other features of a cult, as given in the link I provided a couple of posts ago which of course you read. There's also the idea of a "secret" teaching that isn't shared with non-members, an us-vs-them doctrine, inaccountability to external or secular authorities, and others.
There isn't a clear demarcation line that sets a cult aside from just a branch of a religion, but a lot of people define pretty much any religion as a cult, and that's both inaccurate and misleading. |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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9th July 2019, 10:25 PM | #38 |
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Awesome country you've got over there.
I'm sure this will work out just fine. |
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Your grandchildren will be brown, trans, and Islamo-Communist. |
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9th July 2019, 10:33 PM | #39 |
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9th July 2019, 11:03 PM | #40 |
Observer of Phenomena
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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