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Tags divorce issues , mental health issues

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Old 23rd February 2020, 11:37 PM   #1
cullennz
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Aus. Expert says men should have mandatory mental assessment after divorces

And maybe monitored

Bit left field nutty

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/...baxter-murder/

Quote:

Expert suggests men exiting relationships should receive assessments

A call to carry out mandatory mental health checks on all newly divorced or separated men.

It comes after Hannah Clarke and her three children were murdered by the children's father, Rowan Baxter, in Brisbane last week.

It has been revealed that*Clarke fought to keep Baxter away from her family. Australian media has reported that domestic violence orders against Baxter were continually watered down until he was allowed within just 20 metres of her.

That's despite him stalking her daily...and kidnapping their four year old daughter on Boxing Day.

He killed his three children and their mother by torching their car on Wednesday, in what's been described as an act of domestic terrorism.

Australian National Research Organisation for women's safety chief executive Heather Nancarrow told Mike Hosking transitioning out of relationships is not always easy, and assessments could be a solution to avoid further tragedy.*

"To those who are then assessed as posing a threat to the safety of women and children or others, including themselves, would then be offered help in the form of intensive supervision and ongoing monitoring."

She says there's a number of people who could offer the services.

"It could be people in the existing mental health system, it could be potentially child protection officers. It really is an idea that's still forming."

She says that she is looking to assemble a group of other professionals to discuss the idea in greater detail.

Nancarrow says that one of the ways that this could occur is that family members, friends or colleagues who are concerned about someone's wellbeing as they transition out of a relationship could ask for help.*
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Old 23rd February 2020, 11:48 PM   #2
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I think men should have a mental assessment before marriage.
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Old 24th February 2020, 12:21 AM   #3
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Job security for the profession. I was required to attend mandatory classes for how to mentally handle a divorce with someone I hadn't seen or talked to in a year.

They wanted me to pay for the privilege too. I was already single in life and she had a new guy.

Blanket solutions to spotty problems at its best here. Not good.
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Old 24th February 2020, 02:33 PM   #4
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For starters, is there any evidence Rowan Baxter would fail any such checks? If not then mental health checks would be pointless.
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Old 24th February 2020, 02:42 PM   #5
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The state should probably do mental health checks and monitoring of men who -
- get fired from their job
- lose their home to fire or flood
- are the victim of a robbery
- get turned down for a date
- owe taxes at the end of the year (instead of getting a return)
- lose their entire bankroll on one spin of the roulette wheel

Really, the state should just put all men on psych monitoring all the time anyway. Forget the draft: On your 18th birthday you should have to register for your ankle monitor and monthly check-ups. Because you're a man.

We should probably do the same for women, but they're the weaker sex, so we can save money by just letting the men deal with whatever angry women happen to cross their paths. And then give them extra treatments afterwards, of course. Because they're men.
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Old 24th February 2020, 11:31 PM   #6
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What a horrible story.

The idea of requiring all men getting a divorce to undergo mandatory mental health checks is a ridiculous idea.

However, something more should have been done to protect this woman and her children in this case.

https://nypost.com/2020/02/23/killer...heater-family/
https://nypost.com/2020/02/20/ex-rug...parents-claim/

Difficult to say exactly what, but this guy had a restraining order. I don't see how a "mental health check" would have made any difference. (What happens if you fail this mental health check? Anything?) Short of preemptively throwing the man in prison, I don't see much that can be done. If he violated a restraining order, that might be grounds to do something, but it isn't easy to stop an enraged abuser who's out for revenge before he strikes. Should she have gone to a shelter for abused women where she could get protection?

What action or policy could have prevented this? The idea in the OP wouldn't have prevented it, it would only be a completely pointless and unnecessary exercise for the vast majority of men or women going through a divorce, and probably wouldn't even make a difference in the few cases where the man really is an abuser.
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Old 24th February 2020, 11:44 PM   #7
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I think having regular mental health check-ups should be as normal as having physicals.
And of course, it should be done around the time when some damage might have occurred.

The actual question is: who gets to have access to the results?
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Old 25th February 2020, 01:04 AM   #8
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Denmark enacted legislation that requires counselling for couples seeking a divorce, not just men.
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Old 25th February 2020, 02:24 AM   #9
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I have to say that in the days and weeks immediately following my divorce, I would have found any intrusive and extensive questioning particularly unwelcome. I didn't welcome it from family or friends. I'm fairly sure any court-mandated counselling would not have found me a cooperative subject.
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Old 25th February 2020, 02:41 AM   #10
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Old 25th February 2020, 05:56 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by curious cat View Post
I think men should have a mental assessment before marriage.
I think women should have a mental assessment yearly
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:04 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I think women should have a mental assessment yearly
Monthly.
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:48 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Denmark enacted legislation that requires counselling for couples* seeking a divorce, not just men.
*Couples with children. If no children are involved there's no counselling required.

Not that I approve of this legislation. The purpose is of course to try to preempt that the children get caught in a conflict between parents. This is a noble purpose but I think it's too late if it already got to the point of divorce.

We also got rid of the possibility to get divorced directly without separation. Now if children are involved a 6 month separation period is mandatory. Again I think this is silly.

My ex-wife and I got divorced before this legislation. 6 months of separation would no doubt have aggravated the relationship. We are doing fine now.

Re the OP I'm wondering what happens if the man fails this mental assessment? Should he be thrown in jail just because?
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Old 26th February 2020, 04:58 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I think women should have a mental assessment yearly
AND for all the same circumstances proposed for men. Plus after giving birth- ever heard of the heinoius things women do when suffering from post partem depression?
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Old 26th February 2020, 05:02 PM   #15
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We are should probably require that women undergo cpunswlinf the moment they get pregnant... Actually, before they get pregnant.

Probably we should round up every male once a year, and anyone who says they have a girlfriend we should track her down and make sure she's properly cared for by the Mental Health Police.

---

ETA: Yes, autocorrect screwed up big time. No, I'm not going to fix it.

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Old 26th February 2020, 05:10 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I think women should have a mental assessment yearly
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Monthly.
Misogynistic jokes on page one of a thread about a woman who was burnt to death with her young kids by her husband.
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Old 26th February 2020, 05:14 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Misogynistic jokes on page one of a thread about a woman who was burnt to death with her young kids by her husband.
Surely you understand that the proposed remedy is misanthropic, and demands a misogynistic reductio ad absurdum for a rebuttal. Sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, right?
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Old 26th February 2020, 06:04 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Surely you understand that the proposed remedy is misanthropic, and demands a misogynistic reductio ad absurdum for a rebuttal. Sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, right?
Staying with the Latin, tu quoque.
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Old 26th February 2020, 06:16 PM   #19
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Maybe it's misandric, even.
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Old 26th February 2020, 06:50 PM   #20
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Again this is another one of those articles that could do with a boomer trigger warning. We see them again and again held up as nutty leftwing academic ideas in contrast to a commonsense every man thinking.

What we have in the article are people looking at a terrible tragedy, in the context of a wider domestic violence problem where on average a woman a week in Australia is murdered by a current or former partner, and examining ways to prevent this. This is an extreme problem we are dealing with. The idea that “one of the ways that this could occur is that family members, friends or colleagues who are concerned about someone's wellbeing as they transition out of a relationship could ask for help” is very reasonable in this light.

But here we are again in the anti intellectual culture wars with a story of this type framed hyperbolically by/for a reactionary audience.

https://www.whiteribbon.org.au/under...ce-statistics/

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Old 26th February 2020, 07:31 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Misogynistic jokes on page one of a thread about a woman who was burnt to death with her young kids by her husband.
Not to be pedantic, but that isn't actually the topic of the thread. It's this proposal for "mandatory mental health checks on all newly divorced or separated men".
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Old 26th February 2020, 07:41 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Not to be pedantic, but that isn't actually the topic of the thread. It's this proposal for "mandatory mental health checks on all newly divorced or separated men".
The fact that Hannah Clarke was horrifically burnt to death along with children Aaliyah, six, Laianah, four, and Trey, three kind of looms large in this story.
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Old 26th February 2020, 08:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The fact that Hannah Clarke was horrifically burnt to death along with children Aaliyah, six, Laianah, four, and Trey, three kind of looms large in this story.
I concede that you have a point. In post #6 I tried to take the issue seriously and give a thoughtful response. Others chose to make jokes about it.

The problem as I see it is that this was a murder-suicide, and those seem particularly difficult to prevent. A mere restraining order cannot deter a man willing to take his own life in order to get revenge. In cases where the man cares about his own future, and is thinking rationally, it could be an effective deterrent. I just don't think it would have made a difference in this case. The problem is that the justice system didn't respond effectively to earlier crimes by the offender. He kidnapped one of the children late last year.
Quote:
'He kidnapped (one of the kids) on Boxing Day and took her interstate for four days until the police got her back,' Mrs Clarke said.
So why didn't the police arrest him at that point? If he was arrested, why was he released? This could have been prevented in other ways if the police and the justice system hadn't released him after earlier. They gave him a restraining order which said he can't come within 20 meters of her, but that obviously didn't prevent him from murdering her and the children.

I agree that more should have been done, just not this idea that treats all men as needing an intervention.
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Old 26th February 2020, 08:47 PM   #24
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Do Domestic Violence Restraining Orders Ever Really Work? (Psychology Today)

Quote:
Problem One: Restraining orders work really well for good rule followers in general, and for those who fear the consequences of violating the order in particular. Sadly, most dv suspects have already proven they are not good rule followers and don’t always fear the police, arrest, jail, prison, or even death by their own hands or via the police. Someone who says, “If I can’t have you, no one else will,” and means it, is not often deterred by papers, even when they are handed to them through the screen of a patrol car or betwixt the bars at jail.
So they do work in some cases, but usually only for men who behave at least rationally, and who fear the consequences if they are caught violating the order. It won't work for the man so consumed with rage that he is willing to murder his own children and take his own life so that he can get revenge on his ex-wife. I think the solution needs to be focused on identifying those men before they act, or at an earlier stage of stalking behavior.
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Old 26th February 2020, 09:34 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Surely you understand that the proposed remedy is misanthropic, and demands a misogynistic reductio ad absurdum for a rebuttal. Sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, right?
If women murdered their ex's at a similar rate to men then you might have a point, however until that point, showing how silly the idea is doesn't need to result in misogyny.
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Old 26th February 2020, 09:39 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Do Domestic Violence Restraining Orders Ever Really Work? (Psychology Today)



So they do work in some cases, but usually only for men who behave at least rationally, and who fear the consequences if they are caught violating the order. It won't work for the man so consumed with rage that he is willing to murder his own children and take his own life so that he can get revenge on his ex-wife. I think the solution needs to be focused on identifying those men before they act, or at an earlier stage of stalking behavior.
This is the issue, people need to face serious consequences for breaking Restraining Orders. Restraining Orders need to be considered a due process court order, break one and you go to jail, you go straight to jail, and you stay there until the Judge decides to let you out. They might still not work on the suicidal killer, but most of them don't get there as a first step. If they get locked up for the first offence of breaking the court order, then it might never get to the point of a murder/suicide.
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Old 26th February 2020, 09:52 PM   #27
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As a divorce attorney, this is absolutely nuts.

First of all, many couples who divorce have actually been separated for some time (even those living in the same house and sharing the same bed). Second of all, it's sexist. Men running away from an alcoholic probably number the same as women leaving a similar substance abuser - the same for adultery. And the sexism doesn't end there. What about homosexual marriages?

Forcing a divorcing couple to seek counseling together, something that's floated about occasionally, will mean putting one spouse in a room with his/her abuser. It will give that abuser one more chance to exploit that power dynamic.

The only time that divorcing spouses should be given mental health counseling, together or independently, is to help them co-parent children - and that's only if the relationship did not involve abuse and if they each agree to it voluntarily. I've seen couples who I absolutely thought would fight to the death over a paperclip come out of such voluntary programs and be respectful and communicative in a way that let them each keep good, strong relationships with their children.

I do agree with the liberal granting of orders of protection including taking away a significant other's firearms and placing an automatic hold if they try to acquire one. Those cases should move swiftly through the justice system so that the spouse under order has a fast lane to have his/her rights restored.
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Old 27th February 2020, 02:14 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Misogynistic jokes on page one of a thread about a woman who was burnt to death with her young kids by her husband.
So it's not just me.
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Old 27th February 2020, 05:34 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Misogynistic jokes on page one of a thread about a woman who was burnt to death with her young kids by her husband.
I think I prefer joke misogyny to serious misandry.
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Old 27th February 2020, 06:32 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Misogynistic jokes on page one of a thread about a woman who was burnt to death with her young kids by her husband.
"I demand to be offended!"
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Old 27th February 2020, 07:42 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Again this is another one of those articles that could do with a boomer trigger warning. We see them again and again held up as nutty leftwing academic ideas in contrast to a commonsense every man thinking.

What we have in the article are people looking at a terrible tragedy, in the context of a wider domestic violence problem where on average a woman a week in Australia is murdered by a current or former partner, and examining ways to prevent this.

In 2017 there were 40,032 divorces in Australia (https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/blog...australia.html)

This, with my dodgy maths and accepting your 52 women a year statistic above give a rate of just under 0.0013%

Would you consider the inconvenience and the expense worth it at that rate?
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
In 2017 there were 40,032 divorces in Australia (https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/blog...australia.html)

This, with my dodgy maths and accepting your 52 women a year statistic above give a rate of just under 0.0013%
Your math is dodgy. The fraction is 0.0013. The percentage is 0.13%.

Quote:
Would you consider the inconvenience and the expense worth it at that rate?
I don't think the fundamental problem with forced counseling is "inconvenience", but no, probably not worth it to my mind.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:01 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your math is dodgy. The fraction is 0.0013. The percentage is 0.13%.
Goddamnit. Yes. that'll teach me to do it in a hurry. Thank you.



Quote:
I don't think the fundamental problem with forced counseling is "inconvenience", but no, probably not worth it to my mind.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:30 AM   #34
Wirelight
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Is this because women don't kill their kids? Or, in this current War on Men, do we just pretend it doesn't happen?

The hypocrisy and double standards are astounding. And because I believe in mens rights, I think every child born in the west should have a paternity test to see who the father REALLY is. Funny how the media doesn't dare bring up what all the DNA/genetic testing companies already know.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:41 AM   #35
BobTheCoward
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I agree. This should happen.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:51 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Staying with the Latin, tu quoque.
It's explicitly not a tu quoque. A tu quoque would be absurd. Just like the proposal as such is absurd. It's a bigoted, sexist stereotype, like saying women shouldn't be president because of PMS.

If you see my reductio as absurd and offensive, then you're halfway to understanding why the original serious proposal is also absurd and offensive.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:54 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If women murdered their ex's at a similar rate to men then you might have a point, however until that point, showing how silly the idea is doesn't need to result in misogyny.
It doesn't result in misogyny. It rejects misanthropy on the same grounds that we reject misogyny.

You're basically making the Schroedinger's Rapist argument. Except instead of making it as a guideline for how women should protect themselves around men, you're making it to justify government-mandated medical treatments. Because #notallmenbutwhyriskit
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Old 27th February 2020, 11:08 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Wirelight View Post
Is this because women don't kill their kids?

In the only case in my career where children were murdered, it was the wife who asphyxiated herself with her two children in her car. I had one case where the man murdered the wife (after she let an order of protection expire). I had two where the man committed suicide.

But these were the vast minority of my 17 year caseload.
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Old 27th February 2020, 12:06 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I agree. This should happen.
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Old 27th February 2020, 12:07 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
And that is funny why?
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