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Old 6th May 2020, 02:43 PM   #3121
ynot
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I saw an invisible dragon in my garage last year.
“I’m God” it said in a voice I couldn’t hear.
I saw the invisible dragon again today.
I wish that invisible dragon would go away.

ETA - More like original . . .

As I looked in my garage last year.
I saw an invisible dragon that wasn’t there.
It wasn't there again today.
I wish that invisible dragon would go away.
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Old 6th May 2020, 02:53 PM   #3122
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Interesting article pgwenthold which shows how the Catholic Church has dug a hole for itself, with this transformation of a wafer into there actual body of Christ nonsense. Take away Jesus in a bag!?
Only 14.95+shipping for a pack of 50!

http://www.celebratecommunion.com/pr...box-of-50.html
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Old 6th May 2020, 03:02 PM   #3123
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Only 14.95+shipping for a pack of 50!

http://www.celebratecommunion.com/pr...box-of-50.html

Ha, ha.

There is absolutely nothing that someone will not be prepared to exploit.
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Old 6th May 2020, 03:05 PM   #3124
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There is no God in any religion who is undetectable. We know this because some Gods create the Earth in 7 days, some vomited the universe, some are prolific interveners in moral affairs, etc. no God, in any religious tome, is completely silent, invisible and undetectable.

The Abrahmic God is present and working in everyday life. Even Jews believe this. Jews and Christians alike pray to him and hope he answers. They used to sacrifice animals to him in hopes he would look favorably on their harvest or whatever. This all implies that he is able to manifest in a visible and recognizable way.

There are some religions which sidestep the whole God issue and replace it with other spiritual ideas.

But there is no religion (that I know of) that worships a God that no one has ever, in human history, seen or interacted with . . . a god who is invisible, undetectable and apparently uninterested in making its presence known in any way.
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Old 6th May 2020, 03:08 PM   #3125
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But there is no religion (that I know of) that worships a God that no one has ever, in human history, seen or interacted with . . . a god who is invisible, undetectable and apparently uninterested in making its presence known in any way.
Yeah we pointed that out like 40 pages ago and Psion still hasn't addressed it.
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Old 6th May 2020, 03:10 PM   #3126
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Aristotle's law of immutability states that for god to be perfect he cannot have done anything at all. Also, as Aristotle's writing was the basis of most christian writing through the centuries from what I hear so the law has to be credible in a religious sense. As far as religions go, I can add, its kind of like making the argument that for a religion to be credible it has to have a way to sustain itself. On the other hand doing religious stuff for money makes takes away from the idea that religion is credible. Of course god himself doesn't really care if he is seen as credible or not by the monkeys.
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Old 6th May 2020, 03:10 PM   #3127
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Sort of like a dragon in the garage, that when you want to see it turns out to be invisible?

Exactly the same but totally different. Apparently.
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Old 6th May 2020, 03:39 PM   #3128
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
There is no God in any religion who is undetectable. We know this because some Gods create the Earth in 7 days, some vomited the universe, some are prolific interveners in moral affairs, etc. no God, in any religious tome, is completely silent, invisible and undetectable.

The Abrahmic God is present and working in everyday life. Even Jews believe this. Jews and Christians alike pray to him and hope he answers. They used to sacrifice animals to him in hopes he would look favorably on their harvest or whatever. This all implies that he is able to manifest in a visible and recognizable way.

There are some religions which sidestep the whole God issue and replace it with other spiritual ideas.

But there is no religion (that I know of) that worships a God that no one has ever, in human history, seen or interacted with . . . a god who is invisible, undetectable and apparently uninterested in making its presence known in any way.

The Abrahamic God has evolved over time and in many ways is unrecognisable compared to His former self.

In the beginning (well man's beginning), He would stroll around The Garden of Eden and talk to Adam and Eve. He got somewhat shy after this and hid behind a burning bush, or just boomed His voice down from the clouds. For a time He would only talk to single men (no women of course), and then He just hid completely.

Maybe this is an approach God has found works. When He was more visible and did impressive stuff, like parting the seas and feeding His "Chosen People" in the desert, they thumbed their noses at Him and made a Golden Calf.

Now folk in their billions believe in Him, when He talks to no-one and does bugger all. He is on a winner.
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Old 6th May 2020, 05:10 PM   #3129
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
One Jesus to go, please.
Would you like fries with that?
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Old 6th May 2020, 05:29 PM   #3130
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But if we are talking about the Abrahmic God and testing whether prayers to him have an effect, some prayers get answered (proof he exists!) and some don’t (proof he exists and has a different plan!). Thus, any scientific test would not produce consistent results but the results would be explained away by reference to a divine plan.
Not so much "divine plan" as "lack of faith" which any scientific test implies.

I understand that whenever prayers have been subjected to scientific/statistical experiments, the null hypothesis has won out every time. This is why churches usually say things like "you must have faith when you pray" and why I used the term "scientifically undetectable". Paradoxically, according to the others here, the "need for faith" is apparently taught by churches but "scientifically undetectable" is not.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It’s hard for me to concede that there is something that created and affects the physical universe but is always non-physical and undetectable.
If you insert "always" in that statement as I did then you are right.

If you mean that you find it hard to believe that any god has the ability to render himself "non-physical and undetectable" when he chooses then fair enough. But that property follows tautologically if we assume a god like creator (unless he created a "closed" system).

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Every cause in the universe is scientifically detectable. It follow that this is also true for the first cause (BB, or whatever). “Ah but what caused the Big Bang?” seems to be an irrelevant question, unless we are writing a What-If comic for Marvel in the 60’s.
Why irrelevant? I know that lawyers say "don't ask any questions that you don't already know the answer to" but science operates on a different basis.
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Old 6th May 2020, 05:31 PM   #3131
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, that means God is not invisible then
If by "invisible" you mean "always invisible to all people all of the time" then yes.
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Old 6th May 2020, 05:48 PM   #3132
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If by "invisible" you mean "always invisible to all people all of the time" then yes.
80 pages to get to "A God that can only be seen when he wants to."

Stunning. Simply stunning. Jabba would be proud.
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:03 PM   #3133
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If by "invisible" you mean "always invisible to all people all of the time" then yes.
More dishonesty. That is not what I mean at all, and you know it!

You said: "AFAIK the churches teach that God hides from those he chooses to hide from and reveals himself (in one form or another - usually indirectly) to those he chooses to reveal himself to".
(my hilites)

I said: "Well, that means God is not invisible then"

When I did so, I was referring only to the highlighted part, the part where you said God "reveals himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to" - these are your words - words that mean you are now saying that God is visible, (ergo, you are saying he is NOT invisible). This runs exactly counter to what you have been claiming for over 3100 posts.

You're slipping psionl0. You have told so many lies that you are now having trouble keeping them straight.
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:03 PM   #3134
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What are you trying to prove? That I chose the "wrong" word or that the churches teach that everybody can see/observe/detect/interact directly with God?
My church definitely taught that everybody could see/observe/detect/interact directly with God - if they chose to. That was the whole point of evangelism - to give as many people as possible the chance to make that choice and be "saved".
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:05 PM   #3135
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
80 pages to get to "A God that can only be seen when he wants to."

Stunning. Simply stunning. Jabba would be proud.
You could have stopped on page 8 of the other thread if that was all you are interested in.
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:07 PM   #3136
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
More dishonesty. That is not what I mean at all, and you know it!
I have no idea what you mean. "Visible" when not "invisible" and vice versa is so trivially true that I don't understand why you want to make a court case out of it.
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:11 PM   #3137
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
My church definitely taught that everybody could see/observe/detect/interact directly with God - if they chose to. That was the whole point of evangelism - to give as many people as possible the chance to make that choice and be "saved".
When you add that qualifier it changes the meaning of that sentence. Without those words, it would imply that God is subject to scientific testing.
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:15 PM   #3138
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
When you add that qualifier it changes the meaning of that sentence. Without those words, it would imply that God is subject to scientific testing.
Again, "scientific testing" is something that you added to your original claim when that claim became untenable. We all know that God is not subject to scientific testing because God doesn't exist. But there are believers - and I knew some - who would say that yes, God is subject to scientific testing.
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:18 PM   #3139
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Would you like fries with that?
A friend of mine used to refer to some comedian who talked about communion being a brownie, and the joke was "Body of Christ." "With or without nuts"
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:32 PM   #3140
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have no idea what you mean.
More lies. You know perfectly well what I mean.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
"Visible" when not "invisible" and vice versa is so trivially true that I don't understand why you want to make a court case out of it.
You're trying to play silly word games now.... no-one is fooled.

For over 3000 posts you have been claiming that a God which has two attributes...

1. Is the creator of the universe
2. Is invisible

...applies to the vast majority of Gods taught by the world's religions.

It has been shown to you multiple times by multiple posters with overwhelming piles of documentary and anecdotal evidence, with reference links and sources, that this is completely wrong.

Your inference was clearly that this pGod (named by Darat but made up by you) is invisible to everyone at all times. As Arth noted, "scientific testing" is something that you added to your original claim when that claim became untenable. Now, in yet another blatant and obvious moving of the goalposts, you are adjusting the claim to say that this God is invisible to everyone except those he chooses to reveal himself to. This is not a trivial change, it is seismic shift; one that you have been forced into making since your previous revised position has become untenable again.

You seem to keep forgetting, that some of us are onto your game - we have seen it all before.
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:24 PM   #3141
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You could have stopped on page 8 of the other thread if that was all you are interested in.
At this point I'm interested in why anyone with waste the mental energy building a skyscraper of excuses, special pleadings, and out right lies so high, all to defend something they claim they only believe in the barest possibility of and the explanation they land on is "Because Magic because I said so."

You've made up a God that religious people can see (and so you don't pitch a hissy fit and run screaming down another sidestreet of discussion I mean "see" in the loss, metaphorical sense of "Are able to be aware of its existence through some means") but science can't. Gods out there but he only gives believers whatever the code is to see him. That's insanity built on lies built on stupidity built on pointlessness.

Why, exactly, did you have to start a call-out thread and spend 80 pages performing the most dishonest argumentatives since Jabba to just invoke magic?

Congratulations you've written War and Peace just to get us back to "Because of Faith."

Why not just start with "Because faith, now shut up and stop asking me?" That's where you started, that's where you've been this entire discussion, nobody, not even you I suspect, has ever been under any illusions you were every anywhere else. Why the act? Why the passion play?

I'm seriously it's the same problem I had with Jabba. He obviously just had a religious style, faith based belief in the afterlife and souls and "not dying" but he had to craft this entire extended fictional universe and draft us all into as unwilling participants to maintain this illusion he needed were his beliefs were this logical, mathematically proven facts he had "masterfully debated" into existence so what he had wasn't just some mere faith, oh no that wasn't good enough, but an actual well thought out, even proven idea.

If you're comfortable with "Because God is Magic" why bother with "A thousand excuses, special pleadings, lies, hissy fits, pearl clutchings, all the stations of the Cross... therefore because God is Magic." It's Magic, you don't have to explain it because explaining it doesn't work.

Seriously after 80 pages we've talked you into the "Invoke Faith" corner all because you were so butt hurt over the use of just one simple metaphor in reference to the God that you still sit there and claim not to actually functionally believe that you just had to start a thread to scream into heavens about and assume your position up on the cross so the big evil atheist could poke you with spears and make you wear your crown of thorns. Does this sound sane to you?

I mean you won't answer, I'll be lucky to get something that isn't a simple, direct, outright lie, but maybe someone can fill in the blanks here.
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:42 PM   #3142
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
For over 3000 posts you have been claiming that a God which has two attributes...

1. Is the creator of the universe
2. Is invisible

...applies to the vast majority of Gods taught by the world's religions.Abrahamic God as taught by the major Abrahamic religions.
ftfy.

You created a strawman so that you could claim that the stated existence of a slew of non-creator minor gods falsifies my claim.

As for the "invisible" bit, look at some of the silly nonsense used to argue against it. According to the teachings of the churches :
- God became man (Jesus) and walked on the earth for a while.
- When you look at a wafer, you are looking at the "body and blood of Jesus" therefore God is visible. ()
- God appeared to historical figures in the bible.

Even with the latter argument, it turns out that the appearance is invariably indirect (but that still counts as "visible" apparently).

At best, all that can be demonstrated is that God may interact with some individuals some of the time and that is something I never denied. Your thousands of posts have been dedicated to nit-picking select words to make it appear that I have stated something completely different.
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:54 PM   #3143
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
At this point I'm interested in why anyone with waste the mental energy building a skyscraper of excuses, special pleadings, and out right lies so high, all to defend something they claim they only believe in the barest possibility of and the explanation they land on is "Because Magic because I said so."
Assuming that I have done what you say (I have not) an equally valid counter would be "why waste the mental energy denying even the barest possibility of a creator and attacking anybody who is not equally as vehement in their denials"? Surely "lack of belief" would mean that you don't have a belief on whether the universe was created, existed eternally, sprung into existence spontaneously or was created by "random forces" etc.

"I don't believe you" is a perfectly valid response to any claim given without evidence. "I know it is 100% FALSE! and you are INSANE!!!!!!" is not if you don't have any evidence of your own.
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:56 PM   #3144
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Are gods like "invisible dragons in the garage"?

Christians will be not be amused to learn that God becoming man in the form of Jesus and walking the earth was “silly nonsense.” Ditto for God appearing to people in the Bible.
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:03 PM   #3145
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Christians will be not be amused to learn that God becoming man in the form of Jesus and walking the earth was “silly nonsense.” Ditto for God appearing to people in the Bible.
Which post were you reading? In my post it is only "silly nonsense" if it is intended to "prove" that God is visible (all the time apparently). Whether the statements themselves are "silly nonsense" is a different matter.
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:13 PM   #3146
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Yes we're all aware you moved the goalposts from "God is invisible" to "God is invisible... all the time" about the same time "Evidence" because "Scientific Evidence."
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:31 PM   #3147
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
For over 3000 posts you have been claiming that a God which has two attributes...

1. Is the creator of the universe
2. Is invisible

...applies to the vast majority of Gods taught by the world's religions.Abrahamic God as taught by the major Abrahamic religions.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.

You created a strawman so that you could claim that the stated existence of a slew of non-creator minor gods falsifies my claim.
No matter how many accusations of strawman building you try to throw at me, none of them will stick - your posting record is there for all to see, and other posters are not only not stupid, they have good memories and remember what you posted earlier in the thread - that's why they keep reminding you!

Your claim about the God of Abraham, namely, that it is both a creator god and invisible, and that this is what the Abrahamic religions teach, is just plain wrong - demonstrably, certifiably and irrefutably wrong.
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:35 PM   #3148
arthwollipot
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Once again.

Ghosts don't exist.
Sure.
Unicorns don't exist.
Sure.
Space aliens visiting Earth and wanting to probe my anus don't exist.
Sure.
God doesn't exist.
You can't say that for certain.
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:58 PM   #3149
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The common phrase is "moving the goal posts", as seen here in wikipedia.
And here’s what it looks like.



I made this a few years back on JREF, feel free to reuse
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:05 PM   #3150
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Would you like fries with that?
Awwww stepped all over mine.

Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
One Jesus to go, please.
You want friars with that?
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:36 PM   #3151
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Originally Posted by MinnesotaBrant View Post
a grid is a closed system if we are in fact living in a grid, not a limitless universe. Are aliens subject to scientific testing? Its pretty apparent that they exist though possibly they might not even consider us sentient life to interact with. How do you feel about the subject? Are humans to be considered sentient life in your opinion? Possibly the universe is some kind of quantum computer with aliens writing the code.
In the complete absence of information, any theory is postulatable. As far as sentience goes, I think I am sentient but that could be because my brain is wired that way.
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:41 PM   #3152
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
In the complete absence of information, any theory is postulatable. As far as sentience goes, I think I am sentient but that could be because my brain is wired that way.
You could be just a brain in a jar. That way lies nothing but philosophical wankery. It makes more sense to assume that the universe is as it appears to be - real, objective, natural and godless.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:17 PM   #3153
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You could be just a brain in a jar. That way lies nothing but philosophical wankery. It makes more sense to assume that the universe is as it appears to be - real, objective, natural and godless.
It also appears to be non-relativistic and flat with the sun and stars orbiting it. The term "philosophical wankery" has also been know by other names such as "heresy".
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:21 PM   #3154
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It also appears to be non-relativistic and flat with the sun and stars orbiting it. The term "philosophical wankery" has also been know by other names such as "heresy".
Well that's why we do science, isn't it? To distinguish the real and the objective from false appearances.

As you know, you can't do a scientific test for God. Why do we not just classify it as a false appearance?
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Old 7th May 2020, 02:29 AM   #3155
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Which post were you reading? In my post it is only "silly nonsense" if it is intended to "prove" that God is visible (all the time apparently). Whether the statements themselves are "silly nonsense" is a different matter.


Semantic games don’t impress me. Jesus was a visible thing. God speaking to the prophets was a visible thing.
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Old 7th May 2020, 04:09 AM   #3156
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Semantic games don’t impress me. Jesus was a visible thing. God speaking to the prophets was a visible thing.
So why do you play them?
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Old 7th May 2020, 04:32 AM   #3157
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Old 7th May 2020, 04:55 AM   #3158
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
indeed!
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:42 AM   #3159
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I know the discussion has moved on from the "no religions claim that God is detectable" but I will just throw this out there

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...esus-in-a-bag/

A Catholic Cardinal says "The Lord is a person. No one would welcome the person he loves in a bag or otherwise in an unworthy way."
Is that like Prince Albert in a can?
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:46 AM   #3160
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