Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by 3point14

That's utter bobbins. Of course it can be a reasonable comparison. You simply can't know until you look at each case.

One day some facist will gather an army, march across a continent, gas a people and be compared to Hitler and someone, somwhere would still claim you can't do it cos 'Godwin!'.

Utter bollocks. If people are acting like nazis in the 30's then comparison to nazi's in the 30 is appropriate.

Godwin never said you couldn't compare anybody or anything to the Nazis. He just pointed out that the longer a thread went on the odds of someone comparing someone or something to the Nazis approached 100%.

It is, of course, a bit of a slap at those making the comparison because it points out how routine and reflexive it is. And I've never felt that those making the comparisons are really trying to overstate the evil of whatever they oppose, or understate the evil of Hitler and his goons. Rather they are trying to puff themselves up as the current equivalent of the White Rose Society, brave souls speaking out fearlessly in the face of terrible repression.

And having to hear that you're Godwinning the thread is a little milder punishment than what the White Rose folks got.

[dann]

One of the arguments that critics of capitalism always hear from conservatives and other fans of capitalism is that they themselves depend on capitalism: Yes, but you yourself live in a house built by capitalists, you wear clothes manufactured by capitalists, and you eat food grown and processed by capitalists, so you should be ashamed of yourself for not being more grateful to capitalism!
(It’s pretty obvious that capitalists are not the ones who lay bricks, pour cement, sit at the sowing machines or till the fields and feed the pigs, much the same way as kings don’t build any fortresses and bishops don’t build any churches, but let that go for now. Bertolt Brecht already pointed out the obvious lie.)

There is also the variation of this tale that xjx338 is particularly fond of: The poor workers don’t just work for their employers, they work for you!
In the pandemic, it goes like this:

Originally Posted by xjx388

You have food because people risk their lives to produce it, ship it and sell it to you in a grocery store. You have medical care because people risk exposure to the disease in order to test and treat you. Your ability to type out messages to me across the world is provided courtesy of the evil Capitalist system you seem to despise and blame for all the world’s ills.
Medical workers, grocery store workers, meat packers, etc are necessary in any system and they can’t not be around other people. Society can’t afford for them to stay home, Capitalist or not. Unless your fantasy utopia world has robots to do everything we need. They are there because they have to be. Those people who are forced to produce for the rest of society will exist in any system, Capitalist or not.

So when the production of food in 2020 turns into something that may kill the workers, and a similar thing happens to hospital staff not protected by proper PPE, the workers suddenly aren’t working for their employers, they are working for me, personally. But everybody knows that when I have to pay for their services, they are not the ones who cash in my check. Their employers are, obviously:

Originally Posted by dann

That is the favourite argument of all capitalists, isn't it? It's the one where you say to yourselves, 'We got them now - because they aren't living on an isolated island in the middle of nowhere. And yet it does nothing but reveal the cynicism of your way of thinking:

Yes, people actually risk their lives to produce food! Is that a good thing? No, it bloody isn't! People shouldn't have to risk their lives in meat plants without proper protection against the virus, but the capitalist economy forces them to do so. They depend on the money to pay the rent and feed their children, so they can't refuse.

Yes, people in the health-care industry "risk exposure to the disease" because they are forced to work without proper protective gear. Is that a good thing? Take a look at the anti-anti-lockdown protestors in the clip from The Daily Show!

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I AGREE

You didn't, did you? No, I didn't expect you to because you are the one who wants them to expose themselves to the disease because it serves your purpose. You are the one who wants them to be self-sacrificing cannon-fodder in the pandemic. I'm not, and unlike you I don't consider the way they are treated to be an argument for the system that treats them this way.

No, they are there because they can't afford not to be. And my "fantasy utopia world" (which has always been yours, by the way, because I prefer to think about conditions in the real world and leave it to you to indulge in your fantasies) doesn't have "robots to do everything we need." It has workers’ protection because it doesn't want them to die in the line of duty the way your version of the ideal world demands.

No, they aren't "forced" to produce and cater to the whimsies of the hilariously rich. You confuse the conditions in your favourite society with the obvious necessity of having to produce food in order to live. That one is a given, but there is no reason to confuse it with the despicable conditions people are doing it under in your part of the world.

So how does xjx388 respond to this? He is obviously not used to hearing sensible arguments against his flights of fancy. He ignores the fact that employers do nothing to protect workers from the virus and simply insists on the (extremely obvious) fact that people can’t live without food as if this necessity also requires that they work without proper protection. Instead he pretends that I have suggested that people should “remain locked up in their dwelling units until the virus dies out”, as if that has anything at all to do with the lack of proper PPE in both hospitals and meat plants:

Originally Posted by xjx388

It's not the capitalist economy, it's the people's need for food and desire for meat in particular. Plain and simple. That is true in any system. Even if they didn't depend on the income because they got a UBI, we would still need people to work in meat plants, in grocery distribution centers, in prepared food dispensaries and everywhere else. There is no system that can afford to (financially, emotionally and sustainably) force it's people to remain locked up in their dwelling units until the virus dies out. Even the most successful countries right now in the real world haven't done that and will not do that. The virus isn't going anywhere.

There you go again, trying to paint me as some kind of sadistic monster. It's ridiculous.So are you locked away in your home without a need to get food or supplies? I doubt it. I guess you are part of the problem too.

And so where in the world has worker protection that will guarantee that the virus cannot be spread? Nowhere, because that's impossible.

So why be concerned about PPE to protect workers from infections? It’s no use, “because that’s impossible.”
Which it isn’t, of course! But in xjx388's imaginary reality, it just can't be done, it's a law of nature, apparently.

Originally Posted by dann

Oh, isn’t that nice?! It's the “people's need for food and desire for meat” that's the problem. You deftly ignore that I wrote that “people shouldn't have to risk their lives in meat plants without proper protection against the virus but the capitalist economy forces them to do so.” People’s need for food doesn’t force anybody to work without proper PPE in a pandemic. People’s poverty combined with their employers’ greed and indifference to the plight of their employees does that. It has nothing at all to do with people’s unwillingness to “remain locked up in their dwellings” and you are fully aware that it hasn’t.

What a Trumpian load of …

No, of course I’m not. In Denmark nobody (except inmates) was locked away, and we could all go out and buy food – if we had the money to do so. And no, I’m not part of the problem because I’m not the one who makes workers work without PPE – in hospitals or in meat plants. You, on the other hand, is the one who pretends that the need for food is the driving force behind despicable working conditions, which makes you the problem. People who need to eat aren’t.

No, it’s not. And by pretending that it is, you also pretend that sub-standard working conditions are something that is unavoidable: humans!

And what is xjx388’s response to this? Does he have anything resembling an argument?

Originally Posted by xjx388

Oh, dann...still repeating the same stuff.

You yourself have made the case that it isn’t Capitalism that’s the problem. The spread of coronavirus is down to normal human activity and the ability and desire of people to implement restrictions on that activity. That’s it.

Bottom line: Stupidity is responsible for the spread of Covid-19.

What people like xjx388 fail to realize (because they do their utmost to deny the fact) is that the stupidity that is responsible for the spread of Covid-19 is a result of capitalism. When your only concern is the bottom line and not your employees’ lives and health, you have them work in conditions that have nothing at all to do with “normal human activity and the ability and desire of people to implement restrictions on that activity.”

In other words, when people work too many hours, much too close and ill-equipped with PPE to protect themselves (and indirectly their families) from getting infected by the virus, it’s because of their own “desire.”

Xjx388 knows that this is a lie, and he doesn’t care.

Lies kill!

[dann]

Apropos of “normal human activity and the ability and desire of people to implement restrictions on that activity”:

Quote:

No other advanced nation denies healthcare and work protections, or loosens lockdown while fatalities mount.
(…)
American workplaces are also more dangerous. Even before Covid-19 ripped through meatpackers and warehouses, fatality rates were higher among American workers than European.
Even before the pandemic robbed Americans of their jobs and incomes, average wage growth in the US had lagged behind average wage growth in most other advanced countries. Since 1980, American workers’ share of total national income has declined more than in any other rich nation.
Under Trump, American exceptionalism means poverty, misery and death - (The Guardian, May 10, 2020)

Texas reported its highest hospitalization rates since the coronavirus began but officials have no plans to halt reopening plans (Business Insider, June 13, 2020)

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by dann

One of the arguments that critics of capitalism always hear from conservatives and other fans of capitalism is that they themselves depend on capitalism: Yes, but you yourself live in a house built by capitalists, you wear clothes manufactured by capitalists, and you eat food grown and processed by capitalists, so you should be ashamed of yourself for not being more grateful to capitalism!
(It’s pretty obvious that capitalists are not the ones who lay bricks, pour cement, sit at the sowing machines or till the fields and feed the pigs, much the same way as kings don’t build any fortresses and bishops don’t build any churches, but let that go for now. Bertolt Brecht already pointed out the obvious lie.)

There is also the variation of this tale that xjx338 is particularly fond of: The poor workers don’t just work for their employers, they work for you!
In the pandemic, it goes like this:




So when the production of food in 2020 turns into something that may kill the workers, and a similar thing happens to hospital staff not protected by proper PPE, the workers suddenly aren’t working for their employers, they are working for me, personally. But everybody knows that when I have to pay for their services, they are not the ones who cash in my check. Their employers are, obviously:




So how does xjx388 respond to this? He is obviously not used to hearing sensible arguments against his flights of fancy. He ignores the fact that employers do nothing to protect workers from the virus and simply insists on the (extremely obvious) fact that people can’t live without food as if this necessity also requires that they work without proper protection. Instead he pretends that I have suggested that people should “remain locked up in their dwelling units until the virus dies out”, as if that has anything at all to do with the lack of proper PPE in both hospitals and meat plants:




So why be concerned about PPE to protect workers from infections? It’s no use, “because that’s impossible.”
Which it isn’t, of course! But in xjx388's imaginary reality, it just can't be done, it's a law of nature, apparently.




And what is xjx388’s response to this? Does he have anything resembling an argument?




What people like xjx388 fail to realize (because they do their utmost to deny the fact) is that the stupidity that is responsible for the spread of Covid-19 is a result of capitalism. When your only concern is the bottom line and not your employees’ lives and health, you have them work in conditions that have nothing at all to do with “normal human activity and the ability and desire of people to implement restrictions on that activity.”

In other words, when people work too many hours, much too close and ill-equipped with PPE to protect themselves (and indirectly their families) from getting infected by the virus, it’s because of their own “desire.”

Xjx388 knows that this is a lie, and he doesn’t care.

Lies kill!

Pure sophistry. On and on, over and over.

And punctuated with ad homs; bolded, italicized and ridiculous.

You mentioned something about how I am not used to “sensible arguments,” somewhere in there. And this is supposed to be sensible? It’s pure emotion and rhetoric. Unfortunately, I’m all too used to this kind of content-free rant.

[dann]

In the OP of this thread, I described how the coronavirus spread from Ischgl, Austria, where the tourism industry hand in hand with local health authorities would not acknowledge an outbreak that they had been warned about by health authorities in Iceland, who were alarmed by the number of Icelanders returning with the virus. So the affluent visitors from Iceland and other Nordic countries who wouldn't give up their winter skiing in the Alps returned more or less unaware to infect their compatriots back home.

It was also apparent what was going on when Florida continued to deny that hordes of spring breakers would contribute to the pandemic because of the effect they would have on the tourism industry.

And we can see that Florida has learned nothing at all from their experience with Covid-19 so far. Instead of doing their utmost to hammer down the virus, they prefer to hammer down the flow of information that might make some potential tourists to the Sunshine State consider if it might not be better to postpone the trip till next year or whenever the virus has been conquered.
For the sake of business, Florida thinks it's better that nobody is made aware of the facts:

Quote:

Rebekah Jones was fired last month from her job at the Florida Department of Health, where she helped create a data portal about the state's COVID-19 cases. Now, she has created a dashboard of her own.
(...)
Jones says she was originally tasked with building essentially the same type of dashboard for the health department's website in her role as a geographic information system manager — until it became clear what the results would show.
"When I went to show them what the report card would say for each county, among other things, they asked me to delete the report card because it showed that no counties, pretty much, were ready for reopening," she says. "And they didn't want to draw attention to that."
Fired Florida Data Scientist Launches A Coronavirus Dashboard Of Her Own (NPR, June 14, 2020)

So who exactly makes decisions like this, and why do they do it? Are they evil dictators in a repressive regime, who get off on watching as many of their subjects as possible get ill and die? Or is it simply a question of business as usual: Tourists bring in money, so we wouldn't want to warn them off. And if science disagrees, science doesn't have a job anymore.
(The nursing home industry probably also isn't happy with free and accurate information about this.)

MSNBC (May 20, 2020):
Florida Scientist Says She Was Ousted After Refusing To Manipulate State’s COVID-19 Data

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I AGREE

[dann]

Reopening up in the middle of an outbreak that was only half-way through the proces of being hammered down

Quote:

In Texas, where total cases have shot up by one-third in the last two weeks, Republican Gov. Greg Abbott is moving ahead with plans to let virtually all businesses keep expanding capacity by the end of this week.
Quarantine fatigue: Governors reject new lockdowns as virus cases spike -
State officials, reluctant to damage reopening economies, contend they are better equipped for a new wave of cases. (Politico, June 10, 2020)

Quote:

Renewed spread, in a country that seems committed to reopening its economy to alleviate the financial pain of the lockdowns, could put the US on a dangerous path.
“In the face of increasing numbers of case counts, the continued relaxation will only provide more opportunity for community transmission,” William Hanage, an epidemiologist at Harvard University, told me. “The virus is getting highways along which to transmit.”
Covid-19 U.S. cases update: Texas, Arizona, Florida (Vox, June 12, 2020)

Coronavirus Cases Spike Across Sunbelt as Economy Lurches into Motion (NYT, June 14, 2020)

Quote:

Texas has again hit a new high for patients hospitalized for the coronavirus, with Sunday’s 2,287 reported cases marking a third straight day the state set a new record for hospitalizations, after the past few days brought a record surge in new cases just over two full weeks after Memorial Day.
(...)
Though hospitalizations have continued to rise, the state is still far from reaching its health care capacity, reporting 14,660 beds available as of Sunday. However, officials in Houston are warning that cushion may not last much longer with how rapid the coronavirus seems to be spreading, as they look to potentially refit NRG Stadium into a temporary hospital.
“I’m growing increasingly concerned that we may be approaching the precipice of a disaster,” Harris County Judge Lina Hidalgo said Thursday.
Texas Coronavirus Spike Continues: 3rd Straight Day Breaking Hospitalization Record (Forbes, June 14, 2020)

It is worth remembering that hospitalizations don't spike immediately. Their numbers reflect the transmission of infections 1-2-3 weeks ago, and some of these states are in the process of reopening even more parts of society: "Republican Gov. Greg Abbott has shown no signs of slowing down the state’s aggressive approach."

[dann]

Quote:

Vice President Mike Pence encouraged governors on Monday to adopt the administration’s explanation that a rise in testing was a reason behind new coronavirus outbreaks, even though testing data has shown that such a claim is misleading.

“I would just encourage you all, as we talk about these things, to make sure and continue to explain to your citizens the magnitude of increase in testing,” Mr. Pence said on a call with governors, audio of which was obtained by The New York Times. “And that in most of the cases where we are seeing some marginal rise in number, that’s more a result of the extraordinary work you’re doing.”

He added: “But also encourage people with the news that we are safely reopening the country. That, as we speak today, because people are going back to hospitals and elective surgery and getting ordinary care, hospitalization rates may be going up. But according to our most current information, hospitalizations for coronavirus are going down across the country.”
Pence Misleadingly Blames Coronavirus Spikes on Rise in Testing (NYT, June 15, 2020)

The irony is that this tribute to workers as cannon fodder in the war on Covid-19 and to senior citizens as sacrificial lambs on the altar of business will probably do the hospitality industry (as well as the hospital industry) much more harm than good.

Quote:

Cash-starved states are forced to make massive job cuts. Reopenings for some restaurants and bars are short-lived amid new infections.
Pence Tells Governors to Repeat Misleading Claim on Outbreaks (NYT, June 16, 2020)

Pence encourages state governors to lie to their citizens about spikes in Covid-19 infections (DailyKos, June 16, 2020)
Mike Pence reportedly urged governors to reiterate a misleading claim that coronavirus infection spikes are due to increased testing (Business Insider, June 16, 2020)

What a devout Christian! What a liar! The real 'Killer Mike'!

[dann]

And this is what it looks like when implemented in real life:

Quote:

Austin-area officials recommended Monday that businesses further limit operations.
But an order from Gov. Greg Abbott doesn't let them enforce those suggestions.

For the fourth day in a row Monday, Texas reported record highs in hospitalizations from the new coronavirus. The Texas Department of State Health Services reported that there are 2,326 patients with COVID-19 in Texas hospitals — the highest number to date.
Local Texas officials can recommend precautions as coronavirus cases rise. But they can't enforce many of them. (Texas Tribune, June 15, 2020)

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Oh, dann...still repeating the same stuff.

You yourself have made the case that it isn’t Capitalism that’s the problem. The spread of coronavirus is down to normal human activity and the ability and desire of people to implement restrictions on that activity. That’s it.

Bottom line: Stupidity is responsible for the spread of Covid-19.

Bottom line is undeniably correct.

The only basis for singling out capitalism is that almost all relevant governments are capital friendly. Which makes blaming this virus on that unremarkable, because at that point pretty much anything could be blamed on capitalism.

Which maybe I'm down with, but singling this event out when the actual triggering causes really aren't all that unique to capitalism seems boring.

[dann]

Boring, maybe, but the actual cause is obviously (very short-term) business concerns:
How do we please Wall Street and local business owners?
That Trump's motive is to improve his chances of getting reelected doesn't change that fact.

I wouldn't call it boring that Texas and other states are now letting thousands get infected and, probably, killed by the virus, but maybe it is boring to you.

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by dann

Boring, maybe, but the actual cause is obviously (very short-term) business concerns:
How do we please Wall Street and local business owners?
That Trump's motive is to improve his chances of getting reelected doesn't change that fact.

I wouldn't call it boring that Texas and other states are now letting thousands get infected and, probably, killed by the virus, but maybe it is boring to you.

What is going on isn't boring.

As an abstract point in a philosophical discussion it is a bit tired. I'm all for blaming capitalism for quite a few things, but this has more to do with leaders being short sighted cowards.

Capitalism is not being served by their actions as their lack of resolve wasted the shutdown. The economic damage this will create when things have to be shut down again and/or large parts of the workforce are temporarily or permanently incapacitated will be way worse than had they sucked it up, ramped up stimulus spending to individuals, and very carefully reopened knowing they may have to shut it down again.

A non-capitalist system could have very well done all of this for different reasons. Weak leadership transcends economic systems.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Suddenly

What is going on isn't boring.

As an abstract point in a philosophical discussion it is a bit tired. I'm all for blaming capitalism for quite a few things, but this has more to do with leaders being short sighted cowards.

But you fail to notice that their short-sightedness is due to their interests in keeping the capitalist economy going - at all costs. And so is their cowardice: They don't fear the wrath of their populations. They fear the wrath of Wall Street.

Quote:

Capitalism is not being served by their actions as their lack of resolve wasted the shutdown. The economic damage this will create when things have to be shut down again and/or large parts of the workforce are temporarily or permanently incapacitated will be way worse than had they sucked it up, ramped up stimulus spending to individuals, and very carefully reopened knowing they may have to shut it down again.

That the short-sighted business interests aren't served successfully doesn't make their interest in serving them any less obvious. Trying to keep the whole machinery of capitalism running while neglecting protection of the workforce is as capitalist as it gets. The irony is that it will also hurt the businesses so much more to deny what is happening as well as what is going to happen. Businesses don't have the patience for careful reopening.

Quote:

A non-capitalist system could have very well done all of this for different reasons. Weak leadership transcends economic systems.

A non-capitalist system might have made errors when fighting the virus for different reasons. And leaders making wrong decisions probably transcends economic systems, but I don't think that their reasons for doing so do. This thread discusses how capitalism and its beneficiaries have spread the virus.

The only (not entirely, but still to some extent) non-capitalist system that I am familiar with has done quite well, 7 deaths per million, in particular when you consider how weak their economy is, and they are now planning the careful reopening that you mention:
Cuba plans cautious reopening to tourists (Jakarta Post, June 12, 2020)

Their neighboring countries, on the other hand, in the south as well as in the north:
Texas coronavirus hospitalizations surge 11% in a single day (CNBC, June 17, 2020)

MSNBC (June 17, 2020):
Infection Rates, Hospitalizations Rise As States Begin Reopening

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I AGREE

[dann]

And it's the same pattern in Third-World countries:

Quote:

When it arrived in the unforgiving industrial towns of central Mexico, the sand-swept sprawl of northern Nigeria and the mazes of metal shanties in India’s commercial capital, Mumbai, COVID-19 went by another name.
People called it a “rich man’s disease.”

Pandemics throughout history have been associated with the underprivileged, but in many developing countries the coronavirus was a high-class import — carried in by travelers returning from business trips in China, studies in Europe, ski vacations in the Rockies.

As infections initially concentrated in better neighborhoods, many poor and working-class people believed the disease wouldn’t touch them, as if something terrible but rarefied. The misperception was fed by elites, including the governor of Mexico’s Puebla state, Luis Miguel Barbosa, who said in March: “If you’re rich, you’re at risk, but if you’re poor, you’re not. The poor, we’re immune.”

By now it is clear that COVID-19 spares no one and disproportionately harms the hungry, the forgotten and those with preexisting illnesses and substandard healthcare.
How coronavirus — a ‘rich man’s disease’ — infected the poor (L.A.Times, May 8, 2020)

'But don't you see?! They're all humans!'

[dann]

Quote:

Reporting that Cuba would join debates of the 43rd session of the United Nations Human Rights Council (HRC), he (Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodríguez Parrilla) called for a fight against discrimination based on skin color or ethnic origin, and noted “In the U.S. 22.2% of COVID-19 fatalities are African Americans, although they are 12.7% of the population."
The pandemic has exacerbated social inequalities and shown the shortcomings of a system in which the poor and minorities are left unprotected, the Foreign Minister stated.
Racism and police violence are not the fault of the system. They are the system! (Granma.cu, June , 2020)

There is a very conspicuous difference between the pandemic task force in Cuba and the one in the USA. In fact, you just have to look at photos to notice it:
Saving lives continues to be the priority during recovery period (Granma.cu, June 18, 2020)
Pence Criticized for Photo in Arlington Office Without Masks, Social Distancing (NBC, June 11, 2020)

[Roboramma]

Originally Posted by dann

And it's the same pattern in Third-World countries:




'But don't you see?! They're all humans!'

Do you think that if rich Mexicans would stop going to Europe to study, or taking business trips to China, the poor in Mexico would be better off?

The thing that I think they should have done differently is being more careful about coming back: either staying in those places because they knew that there was a risk that they were already infected, or at least doing a long self-quarantine on arrival back in Mexico.

But while the rich taking business trips to China or traveling to Europe to study do increase the risk of pandemic spreads back to Mexico, on the whole I think those activities are a net positive for the country, so I wouldn't want them to stop them entirely. A more cautious approach (perhaps imposed at the border) to return would make sense to me. Do you agree?

The article also mentions ski trips to the rockies. Those are less "net good for the whole country", but some sort of border pandemic control seems like the way to mitigate the threat posed by tourism. It would be possible to give everyone entering the country a covid test, at their own expense, for instance. I had to get one when I returned to China. And I've heard that it's even necessary to get tested in order to travel within China (at least, it was necessary for a friend of mine, who was turned away from a hotel until he went to a hospital and got a test).

[dann]

Originally Posted by Roboramma

Do you think that if rich Mexicans would stop going to Europe to study, or taking business trips to China, the poor in Mexico would be better off?

In general, probably not, Covid-19-wise, yes.

Quote:

The thing that I think they should have done differently is being more careful about coming back: either staying in those places because they knew that there was a risk that they were already infected, or at least doing a long self-quarantine on arrival back in Mexico.

What?! Would you expect them to actually self-quarantine? Without cooks, servants, cleaners or nannies? You can't be serious!
They didn't, and there have been several examples of this throughout the thread. Self-quarantining is alright for poor people. You can't expect the rich to obey the same rules. In the UK and Sweden, Even epidemiologists don't obey their own rules. It doesn't hurt anybody if they don't go by the rules, does it?! The rules obviously apply to ordinary people, not to those who count.

Quote:

But while the rich taking business trips to China or traveling to Europe to study do increase the risk of pandemic spreads back to Mexico, on the whole I think those activities are a net positive for the country, so I wouldn't want them to stop them entirely. A more cautious approach (perhaps imposed at the border) to return would make sense to me. Do you agree?

In the first paragraph, you distinguished between poor and rich Mexicans. Now you talking about the country instead, and since the country usually means the people in a country that count, i.e. rich people, the power elite, you may be right when talking about a net positive: The rich would have to give up one of their many privileges if they couldn't take business trips, study and party abroad. The rich even seem to imagine that a virus can't possibly harm them, and to some extent they're right, of course. Once it really gets going it tends to kill poor people.

Quote:

The article also mentions ski trips to the rockies. Those are less "net good for the whole country", but some sort of border pandemic control seems like the way to mitigate the threat posed by tourism. It would be possible to give everyone entering the country a covid test, at their own expense, for instance. I had to get one when I returned to China. And I've heard that it's even necessary to get tested in order to travel within China (at least, it was necessary for a friend of mine, who was turned away from a hotel until he went to a hospital and got a test).

There is no such thing as "net good for the whole country."
Testing as many as possible and, in the case of travel between countries or regions, both when leaving and returning, and quarantining when in doubt would help prevent the virus from spreading.
It wasn't done when people returned from the Alps or the Rockies.

[dann]

Steven Reed of Montgomery, Alabama. Great guy, my kind of mayor! He is even able to acknowledge the mistakes he has made and do whatever he can to correct them now.

MSNBC (June 19, 2020):
'They'll Understand In The Long Run': Mayor Issues Mask Order

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I AGREE

Quote:

Right now, 70 percent of new cases of Covid-19 are black. 90 percent of those on ventilators are people that are black as well. And so, when we think about that this is not one event here or there. This is an issue that is really impacting the black community disproportionately. And I think in part that is because nationally one in six workers who are on the front line is black, and se see that a lot here as well. I would say more than one in six. Those are people who are working in grocery stores, they are working in our pharmacies, they are working in our retail shops, they are working on public transit. They are having to publicly interface with people who are not wearing a mask, who may be unknowingly spreading this virus. And that is unfortunate because whether that someone has it or not, we know that they can spread it to someone who is susceptible to it, and I think that’s driving up the numbers.

[dann]

Meanwhile in Germany (and Denmark)

At this point, we know from several outbreaks in the USA that working in a slaughterhouse or meat plant is like going to a super-spreader event. Recently, we have been told about conditions in Germany:

Quote:

Senest Europas største slagteri Tönnies i byen Rheda-Wiedenbrück, hvor mere end 1000 medarbejdere er konstateret smittet, og alle 6500 medarbejdere samt familier er i karantæne.
Men det er hverken på grund af smitte fra dyr eller dårlig hygiejne, at det er gået så galt.
(…)
Man skal derimod kigge mod, hvem der er ansat på slagterierne – og hvordan de er ansat, siger Peter K. Embarek.
- Det er tit lavtlønnede medarbejdere, der bor i samme lejligheder eller sovesale. Tætte miljøer, hvor risikoen for smitte er høj, siger han.
Ifølge Fagbladet 3F er langt hovedparten af medarbejdere på tyske slagterier østeuropæere, der er ansat hos underleverandører – såkaldte kolonnearbejdere. Deres arbejds- og leveforhold har ifølge fagbladet været udsat for kritik i årevis. Blandt andet fordi de bor på sovesale og transporteres til slagterierne i minibusser.
(…)
- Vi ved desværre, at det er en sektor, hvor man ikke har været så hurtige til at adoptere forholdsreglerne under covid-19, fordi de har haft travlt under hele pandemien. Alle andre brancher har været under lockdown og har ændret arbejdsmetoder, men her har de skullet producere. De har haft et helt andet pres, siger Peter K. Embarek.
(…)
Men i Danmark har vi meget høje hygiejnestandarder og har indtil videre været forskånet. I Tyskland går man i stedet efter laveste fællesnævner, og det er formentlig årsagen, siger Ole Wehlast, der er forbundsformand i NNF, til TV 2.
Hvorfor er tusindvis af slagteriarbejdere pludselig smittet med covid-19? (TV2.dk, June 22, 2020)

Translation: Most recently Europe's largest slaughterhouse Tönnies in the city of Rheda-Wiedenbrück, where more than 1,000 employees are infected, and all 6500 employees as well as families have been quarantined.
But the reason why things went so bad is neither because of transmission of infection from animals nor poor hygiene.
(...)
On the contrary, you have to look at who is employed at the slaughterhouses - and how they are employed, says Peter K. Embarek.
- Often, low-paid employees live in the same apartments or dormitories. Environments where people are close to each other and the risk of infection is high, he says.
According to the trade-union magazine 3F, the vast majority of employees at German slaughterhouses are Eastern Europeans employed by subcontractors - so-called column workers. Their working and living conditions have been subject to criticism for years. In part because they live in dormitories and are transported to the slaughterhouses in minibuses.
(...)
- Unfortunately, we know that this is a sector where they have not been fast to take measures during the covid-19 pandemic as they have been busy throughout the pandemic. All other industries have been under lockdown and have changed working methods, but here they have had to produce. They have had a completely different pressure, says Peter K. Embarek.
(...)
But in Denmark we have very high standards of hygiene and so far we have been spared. In Germany, the lowest common denominator is used instead, which is probably the reason, says Ole Wehlast, NNF's chairman, to TV 2.
Why are thousands of slaughterhouse workers suddenly infected with covid-19?

But the "very high standards" in Denmark also mean that the Danish meat-packing industry buys slaughterhouses in Germany, so they can transport cattle to be slaughtered and processed in Germany where the lax rules makes it cheaper: Some of the Eastern European immigrant workers in Germany are now working in slaughterhouses owned by Danish companies under conditions that are illegal in Denmark.
The problem with unacceptable working conditions has simply been exported to Denmark's EU neighbor Germany.

[Darat]

I think the latest First Dog on the Moon may be appropriate for this thread:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...firstdog_email

[3point14]

Originally Posted by dann

In the first paragraph, you distinguished between poor and rich Mexicans. Now you talking about the country instead, and since the country usually means the people in a country that count, i.e. rich people, the power elite, you may be right when talking about a net positive: The rich would have to give up one of their many privileges if they couldn't take business trips, study and party abroad.

Nooo, from all those money making exercises and jollies abroad, something definitely trickles down...

Honest.

[dann]

Yes, the melting glaciers, if you happen to live near one.
It was alway clear that a Mega MAGA church preacher with a private jet or two probably emits more CO₂ than the rest of his congregation combined.
By the way, it's pretty hot in Scandinavia, too. Hourly foreast for Copenhagen 30 degrees Celsius right now.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by dann

Yes, the melting glaciers, if you happen to live near one.
It was alway clear that a Mega MAGA church preacher with a private jet or two probably emits more CO₂ than the rest of his congregation combined.
By the way, it's pretty hot in Scandinavia, too. Hourly foreast for Copenhagen 30 degrees Celsius right now.

We're screwed, is the conclusion.

Those with the power to solve the problem are those that profit most and suffer least from it. They are the sons, daughters and proteges of the people that have raped the planet and profitted from it for the last 100 years and more.

These are the people who changed the name of the thing to 'climate change' because 'global warming' was too scary and accurate a desciption of the problem.

They won't change. They'll just buy property in the northern lattitudes and watch the world burn.

[dann]

They are not the people "with the power to solve the problem."
That is like saying that Hitler was the guy with the power to stop WW2.
They and their power are the problem, which is why we need to take it away from them.


ETA: Trump still appears to woo Greenland!

[3point14]

Originally Posted by dann

They are not the people "with the power to solve the problem."
That is like saying that Hitler was the guy with the power to stop WW2.
They and their power are the problem, which is why we need to take it away from them.

I don't think that's possible. The system moves too slowly and there are too many confounding factors.

Global warming has been theorised about for over a hundred years. My entire lifetime it's been an issue that has been described as literally threatening our civilisation. All that time, carbon emissions have risen.

Observing past behaviour, I can't see how future behaviour is going to be any different.

[dann]

The reasons why meat plants spread the virus:

Quote:

"People have to stand close to each other and shout to make themselves heard ... you have people working long shifts close to each other, all those things magnify the risk of infection," he said.
(...)
Factory floors packed with workers standing shoulder to shoulder aren't unique to the food processing industry. What is unique though, is that unlike car assembly lines and plane factories, these plants remained opened for business, even when social distancing wasn't possible.
(...)
A large proportion of workers in the industry are often foreign-born and come from a number of countries. More than two-thirds of the 75,000 workers employed in meat processing in the UK are migrant workers from elsewhere in Europe, according to the British Meat Processing Association. In the US, immigrants make nearly 30% of all meat-packing plants workers. In Germany, it's around a third.
Paddy McNaught, the regional officer for the labor union Unite in Wales, said workers in the industry often don't receive sick pay, another factor that could lead to outbreaks. "So when you're in a situation like this, when you're on low pay, you have very little spare income, you're more likely to take a risk and go to work when you have a temperature, rather than take the time off and isolate for 14 days," he said. The industry must ensure workers have enough protection to be able to take time off without suffering financially, he added.
Why meat processing plants have become Covid-19 hotbeds (CNN, June 27, 2020)

[Roboramma]

Originally Posted by 3point14

Nooo, from all those money making exercises and jollies abroad, something definitely trickles down...

Honest.

I honestly find the idea that it doesn't so alien as not to really be worth engaging with. Global trade really is good for everyone, but if you disagree I think we're so far apart that it would take a long conversation to even get to the root of that disagreement, and there's little hope of going beyond it.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by dann

They are not the people "with the power to solve the problem."
That is like saying that Hitler was the guy with the power to stop WW2.
They and their power are the problem, which is why we need to take it away from them.


ETA: Trump still appears to woo Greenland!

Trump and a Godwin double.

Uber impressive

[Mader Levap]

Originally Posted by Roboramma

I honestly find the idea that it doesn't so alien as not to really be worth engaging with.

There is no "trickle down". It is made up crap designed to cause commoners and proles tolerate and put up with abuse of those richer than them.

Capitalism is inherently abusive. In itself is not that big problem - there are ways to deal with it to manage it down to acceptable level - but free market advocates and other delusional morons usually also advocate against those measures.

[dann]

Trickle-down economics:
Cochabamba Water War (Wikipedia)
Leasing the Rain – The world is running out of fresh water, and the fight to control it has begun (New Yorker, April 1, 2002)
Who will bring water to the Bolivian poor? (NYT, Dec. 15, 2005)

But let's return to covid capitalism, please. A Swedish example:

Quote:

According to the Swedish Public Health Agency, almost 50 percent of the 4,814 coronavirus deaths have occurred in care homes. And with 5.29 deaths per million, the country has one of the highest per-capita death rates in the world according to the scientific online publication Ourworldindata.com.
"If you are middle class if you have a good housing situation and if you have a job that allows you to work from home, you are likely in good health and these are all class-related," says Westeson from Amnesty international.
Coronavirus: Can Sweden do more to protect the Somali community? (TRT World, June 12, 2020)

[dann]

One more from Sweden:

Quote:

Lågt valdeltagande, hög arbetslöshet och utbredd trångboddhet präglar flera utsatta förorter.
Där finns även högst andel smittade av covid-19.
Smittan sprids mest och snabbast i Sveriges fattigaste områden, visar Expressens kartläggning av 130 postnummer.
I överklassområden som Djursholm och Östermalm är det näst intill smittfritt.
(…)
Siffrorna avslöjar en avgrundsdjup skillnad mellan rika och fattiga områden i huvudstadsregionen.
Det är i de fattigaste och mest trångbodda förorterna som covid-19 fått hårdast fäste och flest vårdats på sjukhus.
Corona härjar bland fattiga – rika klarar sig (Expressen.se, June 28, 2020)

Translation:
Low participation in elections, high unemployment and general overcrowding characterize several vulnerable suburbs.
That is also where you find the highest number of Covid-19 infections.
The infection spreads the most and the fastest in Sweden’s poor areas, according to Expressen’s mapping of 130 postal-code areas.
Upper-class areas like Djursholm and Östermalm are almost free from contagion.
(…)
The numbers reveal an abysmal difference between rich and poor areas in the region of the capital.
Covid-19 has the tightest grip on the poorest and most overcrowded suburbs and those are also the areas with most hospitalizations.
Corona rages among the poor – the rich can cope

[3point14]

Originally Posted by Roboramma

I honestly find the idea that it doesn't so alien as not to really be worth engaging with. Global trade really is good for everyone,

Everyone? Why? I mean, I can get kiwi fruit in december,t that's an upside. It comes from god knows where and the transport of it is responsible for carbon emissions worldwide, but I can get a kiwi fruit...

The guys that grow coffee or tea or chocolate or any number of other things would disagreewith you.

The many places where biological diversity has been knackered due to the effect of global trade would disagree with you.

Global trade may be good for the stock markets, but that's no indication. The world is on it's arse, people aren't working but the market's are going up and traders are making money, so I really don't think that's an indication at all.

Everyone? No, not everyone and I think that's a ludicrous suggestion.

Quote:

but if you disagree I think we're so far apart that it would take a long conversation to even get to the root of that disagreement, and there's little hope of going beyond it.

You're right here.

[dann]

Quote:

After telling the Fijian parliament last week that his vision for a "post-Covid society" included a gradual resumption of its travel sector, Prime Minister Josaia "Frank" Voreqe Bainimarama has offered an open invitation to billionaires wishing to visit the country.

In a frank statement on Twitter earlier this week, he wrote: "So, say you're a billionaire looking to fly your own jet, rent your own island, and invest millions of dollars in Fiji in the process -- if you've taken all the necessary health precautions and borne all associated costs, you may have a new home to escape the pandemic in paradise."

The country's Attorney General, Aiyaz Sayed-Khaiyum, confirmed on Thursday that a group of high-net-worth individuals had been given permission to travel to Fiji.

Speaking during a national budget consultation, Sayed-Khaiyum said that around 30 individuals from "a very well-known company" would soon arrive in the country by private aircraft, before taking a seaplane to their final destination, where they would stay for three months.
Fiji markets itself as retreat for billionaires during pandemic (CNN, June 28, 2020)

Maybe I should add that they have only invited humans. So far, not a single reptilian has received the kind offer.
I also really, really hope that they will be going to their "final destination".

[dann]

I think that John Oliver's 9th episode in his series about the coronavirus,
Evictions,
is the appropriate contrast to the story about the billionaires on pandemic vacation in Fiji:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I think it is also in order to remind some people that tenants and homeless people are actually humans, too, even though they aren't always treated as such.

Coronavirus: Why US is expecting an 'avalanche' of evictions (BBC, June 19, 2020)

Hmmm, on the one hand, billionaires going to pre-mortem Paradise in Fiji, leaving their first, second and third homes behind, and on the other hand, tenants being evicted from their flats because they can't pay the rent.

May I suggest a solution to the problem?

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by dann

I think that John Oliver's 9th episode in his series about the coronavirus,
Evictions,
is the appropriate contrast to the story about the billionaires on pandemic vacation in Fiji:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I think it is also in order to remind some people that tenants and homeless people are actually humans, too, even though they aren't always treated as such.

Coronavirus: Why US is expecting an 'avalanche' of evictions (BBC, June 19, 2020)

Hmmm, on the one hand, billionaires going to pre-mortem Paradise in Fiji, leaving their first, second and third homes behind, and on the other hand, tenants being evicted from their flats because they can't pay the rent.

May I suggest a solution to the problem?

Please do. We’ve been kind of waiting for that show to drop.

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by dann

May I suggest a solution to the problem?

Apparently not. I have it on good authority (yours, from page 3) that that's a strawman.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Please do. We’ve been kind of waiting for that show to drop.

I meant “shoe” but I think my error is actually better.

[Mader Levap]

Originally Posted by dann

May I suggest a solution to the problem?

Capitalism with human face?

Oh, and you won't get rid of capitalism in some form any time soon. Get over it.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

Capitalism with human face?

Oh, and you won't get rid of capitalism in some form any time soon. Get over it.

I don't think there are too many people* that want to get rid of capitalism in it's entirety I can't see any way that could even begin to happen.

I think some people want to treat capitalism as a the tool it is not the religion it's become.


*I don't deny that there are some.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

Capitalism with human face?

Oh, and you won't get rid of capitalism in some form any time soon. Get over it.

And due to capitalism, we also don't get rid of coronavirus any time soon.
Get over it?!

[dann]

Originally Posted by 3point14

I don't deny that there are some.

Count me in.