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28th August 2021, 02:18 AM | #2841 |
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Remember the German guy who breached the pilots' cockpit and brought down an entire plane? It seems obvious to me that there should not be any unauthorised personnel in a ship's bridge. The fact that in this case there was a sudden sinking lasting barely half hour then anyone seen in the bridge in my mind becomes a suspect at a crime scene. The JAIC should have treated the whole thing as an initial crime scene but they did not and went straight in for Swedish PM Carl Bildt's 'bow fell off' conclusion.
The unknown tattooed guy on the bridge may well be innocuous and a crew member after all. However, it was never investigated. Why not? |
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28th August 2021, 03:37 AM | #2842 |
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28th August 2021, 03:37 AM | #2843 |
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28th August 2021, 03:38 AM | #2844 |
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28th August 2021, 03:39 AM | #2845 |
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Because it isn't important. Do you think there are only ever the same few people on a bridge?
Crew come and go from the bridge all the time, making reports or performing duties. If a ship is in trouble then various crew members would be coming and going as part of their duty. |
28th August 2021, 04:39 AM | #2846 |
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28th August 2021, 05:25 AM | #2847 |
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Oh good. Off we go again. Look: Arikas, in that quote you provided, 1) talks about the damage to the side of the hull (the damage you seem to be insinuating came from a colliding vessel or a torpedo or some other unsubstantiated crap) then 2) points out that this damage (the damage he's talking about in (1) above) correlates in its geometry (ie size, shape) with the rock outcrop which is right next to this damaged part of the hull. It doesn't take a genius to work out that the only reasonable inference to take from Arikas' statement is that it was the rock outcrop which caused the damage to the side of the hull. (the precise area of damage which you insinuate was caused by your batguano conspiracy theories) Let me know if you'd like any further clarification. |
28th August 2021, 05:35 AM | #2848 |
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Is there truly no end to your ignorant posts? The "German guy" who "brought down an entire plane" was in fact the aircraft's First Officer (a position which is usually colloquially referred to in the media as "co-pilot"). He was a member of the flight crew. He waited until the Captain - his senior colleague pilot on the flight deck - went to use the bathroom, then locked him out of the cockpit and flew the aircraft into the ground. |
28th August 2021, 05:52 AM | #2849 |
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28th August 2021, 05:55 AM | #2850 |
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She claimed she learned about the "anti-gravity machine" from her science teacher, and seemed to think that it was common knowledge. The best I could figure was that she'd seen a video shot aboard the Vomit Comet during a high school class and had only half paid attention to it, and thought that they were in some device on the ground that was able to negate gravity.
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28th August 2021, 05:58 AM | #2851 |
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28th August 2021, 07:08 AM | #2852 |
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28th August 2021, 07:41 AM | #2853 |
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Probably no good reason to investigate it, certainly no reason to think that he was involved in a hijacking of the bridge.
The idea that the bridge might have been hijacked is your fantasy and is not just a "current news item", no matter how much you twist and turn and refuse to take responsibility for your inane ideas. You've thrown out ideas of hijacked bridges, accidental collisions with escorting British subs, accidental collisions with spying Russian subs, revenge seeking rogue KGB agents, the sinking being caused by explosives planted on the ship, nine crew members mysteriously disappearing after the sinking, a NATO naval exercise suspiciously not getting involved in a rescue effort, a submarine torpedoing the Estonia... I can't even remember all the nutty mutually exclusive ideas you've bombarded the thread with. Your wild-eyed speculation about rogue KGB agents seeking revenge, or unidentified people hijacking the bridge, or submarines surreptitiously torpedoing the ship, or Russian spy submarines accidentally sinking the ship and other arrant nonsense are straight up conspiracy theory lunacy, no matter how much you claim otherwise. |
28th August 2021, 07:53 AM | #2854 |
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"Penetrating damage" is an English phrase, not an Estonian phrase.
Quote:
Yes, a coroner examining a body with a large, apparently penetrating injury can make some general observations and inferences about what kind of thing might have happened. But without more context and further examination, it would be irresponsible of someone else to think that the coroner supports "KGB narwhal attack" as the cause of death. |
28th August 2021, 08:17 AM | #2855 |
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This is an eminently bad example because the kinetic-molecular theory of gases states that static pressure of a contained gas is exactly the sum of collisions of moving gas molecules with the container. But the point everyone's trying to make with it is clear and correct: static loading and dynamic loading are very different kinds of things.
Structural engineers are laboring diligently to preserve Frank Lloyd Wright's famous house Fallingwater, which he infamously designed in about an hour after hearing that the client was on his way to see Lloyd Wright's progress. Sadly after many years, the cantilevered steel beams are "hogging," threatening the integrity of the building. That's persistent static loading, involving only the building's dead weight (which means almost the exact opposite in architecture as it does in seafaring). Yes, the same result could have been obtained by dropping giant heavy weights onto the structure when it was freshly built. But that's not what happened. A ship sitting on its side (or nearly upside down) on an uneven surface is subject to the same sort of problem, just from static loading. And the result will be buckling and tearing. There was posted plenty of photographic evidence of this happening to ships on the surface (because sagging and hogging occur there too), with very similar results to what we see on Estonia. Certainly I haven't ruled out a penetrating injury. But to me there are two points of evidence that make stress fracture the best hypothesis for Evertsson's hole: the lack of coating transfer or damage, and the buckle in the indented portion of the hole. If that were a penetrating injury it would have been more likely to tear at that point. But since I don't get to inspect the hole close up, and others do, what those others have to say is more important than what I have to say. |
28th August 2021, 08:33 AM | #2856 |
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Indeed, after lecturing us about the importance of respecting context in quotations, Vixen largely ignores the context of Arikas' statement in which he clearly opines that the damage occurred on the seabed, not on the surface. Of course it doesn't rule out that it could have occurred on the surface, but to continue trying to cite the witness as sustaining authority for the surface-collision hypothesis is completely wrong. The witness here clearly makes a case for a different specific cause.
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28th August 2021, 02:17 PM | #2857 |
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What they and you are overlooking is that Estonia was not a conventional RORO design. It was a variant called a RORORO (roll-on/roll-off/roll-over), which has a much more limited operational envelope. Specifically, by international admiralty law, when your boat is a RORORO you may only proceed gently down the stream. If you go cruising merrily, merrily, merrily into stormy ocean waters, you'll soon find your life turning into nothing besides a nightmare. These are nautical facts (so well known there's even a mnemonic rhyme sung by children) which, unlike a RORORO, cannot be overturned. |
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28th August 2021, 03:14 PM | #2858 |
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29th August 2021, 01:01 AM | #2859 |
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So we've gone from phantom submarines to a hijacking? Seems to me that at least one of the survivors would have said something considering you'd need at least 20 guys if you hope to get control of a ship that size. It's not like an airplane where 1 guy with a shoebox he claims is a bomb can dictate what the pilots do next. You need to control the bridge, access to the bridge, the engine room, and you need to round up the *checks notes* 909 passengers and crew to hold them in a central location or locations. And if you're successful and take control of the ship, then what? Hold it for ransom? In an region where the SBS, US Navy SEALS, and Spetznaz can and will show up and ruin your day? All this because some guy go a new tattoo? |
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29th August 2021, 12:15 PM | #2860 | |||
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The JAIC Report says:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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So, we see from the above, of the five Swedish helicopters to arrive, according to JAIC, the first didn't even leave until 2:50am. ( The Q97 Super Puma.) According to the JAIC 'Hero' Q64, Kenneth Svensson, in the Boeing Kawasaki, didn't even arrive until 5:52am - the second to last Swedish helicopters out of six - whereupon he had to be immediately rescued by Ollie Moberg in the Y74 Boeing Kawasaki, that arrived at twenty to seven in the morning.
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8. Y68 9. O95 These three helicopter arrived after the other six. In the JAIC scenario, we have Kenneth Svensson rescuing three people, of whom two died. He helps Ollie Moberg rescue a further six and takes them from Finnish mainland island of Uto to Turku, which is not a rescue from the sea but straightforward transportation of victims from place of nearest rescue to the nearest hospital. Uto, was were the rescued and the dead were taken from the Mariella to be transferred to hospital. So of the first six Swedish helicopters to arrive, Svensson is fifth, doesn't arrive until 5:52 and has to be rescued himself by Y74, Ollie Moberg. Yet in that day's Aftonbladet, journalist, Sven Anders Eriksson, for a Swedish national newspaper, on 28 September 1994, Svensson is hailed a hero who rescued
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According to the JAIC, the first Swedish helicopter didn't arrive until 3:50. But wait, listen to the live radio communications between the ships in the area. At circa 18:43, the message very clearly states that 'the Swedish helicopter will be here in ten minutes'.
At circa 23:00 (after the May Day from Tammes) the Mariella and Symphony confirm their helicopter decks are ready. So Svensson got a medal ostensibly for saving just one person's life, if the JAIC is to be believed, in its long convoluted story about how Y64, Svensson and Y74 Moberg, somehow shared the survivors between them. With Y74 not even arriving until eighteen minutes to seven in the morning and Y64 not even there until eight minutes to six, some five hours after Estonia vanished beneath the waves. Whom do we believe, Aftonbladet or the JAIC? |
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29th August 2021, 12:24 PM | #2861 | |||
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If you watch this interview with the Captain of the nearby M/S Viking Mariella, Jan-Tore Thörnroos, he explains, he immediately jumped out of bed to run to his bridge as soon as there was an alert from his crew.
I am guessing Captain Andresson would have done the same. According to Rockwater divers, he was seen with a bullet through his head, as reported by former head of the JAIC, Andi Meister. |
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29th August 2021, 12:29 PM | #2862 |
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Wrong. The 22 meters x 4 metre deformation is a separate one. If you read the Baltic News it lumps the sentence 'geological match' with this whereas the ERR Posti has it as a separate paragraph. These are likely both from the same news agency, which are well-known for avoidance of stating anything controversial.
Fact is, Arikas has not yet committed himself as to what the cause of the hole, as found by Evertsson et al is. |
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29th August 2021, 12:36 PM | #2863 |
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Nope. According to Evertsson, there are no rocky protusions in the region the ships sank that could have caused that shape of deformation. In addition, it has been known of since Swedish Navy diver Hakan Berkman (_sp?) was part of an early team of divers reported it. He revealed his claim in 1999, and which was published in the Swedish national papers.
So, not caused by 26 years of 'wear and tear'. |
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29th August 2021, 12:40 PM | #2864 |
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Nope. I paraphrased Arikas as stating that a particular deformation seen by his ROV device on the starboard side must have been caused by an enormous impact.
Someone claimed his exact quote was 'by an enormous force' not impact. However, Arikas is an Estonian speaker and I doubt Estonian has a hundred and one different words for the same thing, as English does. So, in the above case, it is a correct use of synoym. We were not talking about Chemistry so you are simply dealing in sophistry with your example. |
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29th August 2021, 12:50 PM | #2865 |
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So do you think the Russian shooting down of a plane or poisoning its ex-spies and daughter in Salisbury is conspiracy theory. You think the cold war doesn't exist, even today? As I said, it is your prerogative to wait until Rupert Murdoch gives you the go ahead to believe something.
AFIAAC credible eye witnesses, who were actually there at the accident, have confirmed they experienced a series of explosions (two or three is the common claim) and/or a collision of such force that they thought the ship had crashed into something. These are 29 independent survivors out of just 137 (of whom 58 were crew). Both Sarah Hedrenius and Carl Oxberg saw the military vehicles board the vessel. Paul Barney is convinced of MI6 involvement as he is unable to obtain any transparency whatsoever under the Freedom of Information Act, despite this being a public accident occuring on public transport. Sweden did eventually, ten years later, admit it did use the Estonia to smuggle FSU military equipment. So just because you can't get your head around it, it doesn't mean it did not happen. Maybe you are not as sceptical as you think you are if you are waiting for Fox News to tell you what to think. |
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29th August 2021, 12:52 PM | #2866 |
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29th August 2021, 12:54 PM | #2867 |
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29th August 2021, 01:16 PM | #2868 | ||
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29th August 2021, 02:19 PM | #2869 |
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29th August 2021, 02:27 PM | #2870 |
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29th August 2021, 02:31 PM | #2871 |
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There is damage from at least four different sources:
Here's a summary of what Rene Arikas said:
Quote:
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29th August 2021, 02:33 PM | #2872 |
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Other conspiracies do exist =/= this conspiracy is real
A person doesn't believe your nonsense =/= that person is not a skeptic Shaming people into no longer questioning your premises by suggesting they need Rupert Murdoch's permission to say something = you demonstrating your character for everyone to see. |
29th August 2021, 02:34 PM | #2873 |
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29th August 2021, 02:35 PM | #2874 |
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29th August 2021, 02:38 PM | #2875 |
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There is a protruding outcrop, which is a long ridge and not a pointed rock. The bridge has come to rest on it. The vessel sank face forward so the hull would not have hit this ridge, although the stern may or may not have hit the moraine clay slope, which is formed of hard rock.
Quote:
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29th August 2021, 02:42 PM | #2876 |
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29th August 2021, 02:45 PM | #2877 |
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Evidence please. If you're going to announce - in the face of the very press report that you yourself provided here(!!) - that I'm wrong, then I'm going to want to see your working. Or is this nothing more than your own (mis)interpretation?
Quote:
Uhm this makes no logical sense at all. Firstly, how are you coming by the idea that if there's a paragraph separator in the text, this somehow means or implies that the thing being discussed in Para 2 must be different from the thing being discussed in Para 1? And secondly, what on earth does your last sentence above mean? What is - or is not - "controversial" here in your view, especially as it pertains to what you believe the original news agency report to have been? (Do you even have any evidence that this was indeed an instance of wire copy which was picked up by two different news media and re-reported slightly differently?)
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Fact is, Arikas - by virtue of the press report which you yourself provided here(!!) - has very clearly expressed his own opinion, by way of an obvious implication, as to how that hull damage came about. |
29th August 2021, 02:45 PM | #2878 |
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29th August 2021, 02:50 PM | #2879 |
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I am afraid that the person who writes about an unknown tattooed character on the bridge lying under a cabinet and Captain Andresson claimed to have been seen by a Rockwater diver with a bullet in his head is the former Head of the JAIC who resigned because he claimed the Swedish side were withholding and censoring information from him. For example, it only let them see an edited clip of what the outsourced Rockwater divers filmed. Your calling it 'wild-eyed nonsense' reflects on YOU. Because - hello? - the Treaty - an Act of government by three sovereign states - has been amended. Therefore it is not a conspiracy theory dreamt up by a Big Foot 9/11 truther.
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29th August 2021, 02:52 PM | #2880 |
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Exactly. It's clear as day that Arikas is giving his opinion that the hull damage he's just talked about - the only hull damage that's being talked about full stop - was caused by the rocky outcrop which is immediately adjacent to that part of the hull and which matched in size & shape to the damage observed on the hull. If there could ever be such a thing as an explicit implication, Arikas provided one here. |
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