Materialists......

The argument is not from a universal to a particular.
That is right but the Socrates argument is. And you asked for the difference between the logical structure of your argument and the Socrates argument and I told you.

Do you accept now that the logical structure of an argument from universals to particulars is different to the logical structure of yours (the very thing you asked me to show you)?
It is from the possibility of zombies to the falsity of physicalism.
That is right - a quite different logical structure from the Socrates argument
LW's example was to demonstrate to you the difference between assuming your conclusion and not assuming your conclusion. Apparently, you missed the point.
No, I answered your question directly - you could not tell the difference between the logical structure of your argument and the logical structure of the Socrates argument and apparently thought your logic lecturer would not be able to tell the difference either.

So now are you clear on the difference in logical structure????

The Socrates argument is a classic MP arguing from universals to particulars, yours is not.
 
Last edited:
LW posted:

LW posted:
Consider this final example that is perhaps THE standard example of valid reasoning:

(a) All men are mortal.
(b) Socrates is a man.

And the conclusion that we get is "Socrates is mortal". Have we now committed the fallacy of assuming our conclusion? By the reasoning you used above, we have. Because if we add the sentence:

(c) Nothing is mortal

to the set we get an inconsistency.

So.......

--------------------
(a) P-zombies are physically identical to humans but mindless.
(b) Humans have minds.

And the conclusion that we get is "minds are non-physical". Have we now committed the fallacy of assuming our conclusion? By the reasoning you used above, we have. Because if we add the sentence:

(c) Everything is physical.

to the set we get an inconsistency.
-------------------------------------

Do you see a logical difference? I don't. Neither would my logic lecturer. ;)

Geoff
Robin said:
They don't appear to be anything like each other
Geoff said:
What is the difference between them, in logical structure?
Now I have already pointed out that the Socrates argument is from universals to particulars and yours is not. Please let your logic lecturer and LW know about this.

Another difference is that the conclusion of the Socrates argument follows from the argument – a feature that used to be considered quite important.

The conclusion that follows from your argument is “human minds are not physical”.

Now this brings us to a third major difference and the one which you, LW and your logic lecturer appear to have completely missed.

If you add the negation of the conclusion to the premise of the Socrates argument you do not get an inconsistency.

This is important because if you do, then the conclusion follows directly from the premise – otherwise known as assuming your conclusion.


If you add the negation of the conclusion “human minds are non-physical” to the premise of your argument you get an inconsistency. In other words your conclusion follows from your premise and (b) is completely superfluous.

Again it used to be thought important that the conclusion did not follow from the premise or any of the definitions.

Oh and by the way:
(a) P-zombies are physically identical to humans but noseless.
(b) Humans have noses.

And the conclusion that we get is "noses are non-physical". Have we now committed the fallacy of assuming our conclusion? By the reasoning you used above, we have. Because if we add the sentence:

(c) Everything is physical.

to the set we get an inconsistency.
 

It was a good thing that my internet connection at home is down. Since otherwise I might have posted stuff that I might have regretted. I have lots to say about that paper but before I write it in detail I have to familiarize myself better with K and M (I borrowed Blackburn et. al.'s Modal logic from library for that), and I probably can't do that today. And if they don't fix the internet connection (it came up for a short while in the morning but went out again), I won't be posting before monday.

But the short version:

The paper can be summarized as: "I think that zombies are possible. Therefore computationalism is dead."

And unfortunately this is far more accurate summary than it should be.
 
[latex]$P_1$: $\forall p\forall a ( A(a) \land P(a) \land Z(p) \rightarrow H(p, a))$[/latex]


[latex]$P_2:$ $\forall p (Z(p) \rightarrow \neg H(p, c))$[/latex]

[latex]$P_0$: $A(c)$[/latex]



[latex]$P_0$: $A(c)$ \\
$P_1$: $\forall p\forall a ( A(a) \land P(a) \land Z(p) \rightarrow H(p, a))$\\
$P_2:$ $\forall p (Z(p) \rightarrow \neg H(p, c))$ \\
$C$: $\neg \neg P(c)$[/latex]
As a matter of interest, is there a link to somewhere that teaches you how to type this sort of stuff?
 
Now I have already pointed out that the Socrates argument is from universals to particulars and yours is not. Please let your logic lecturer and LW know about this.

The structure of an argument is relevant only if you use syllogisms. And there hasn't been any good reason to use syllogisms after Hilbert presented his axioms for predicate logic. And now that there are symbolic proof procedures that work by breaking down the structure of an arbitrary formula (such as Smullyan-style semantic tableaux), there is no real reason to use axiom proofs, either, except for trivial toy problems.

What is relevant is that there is a set of formulas S. They may be completely arbitrarty sentences having completely arbitrary structures as long as they are well-formed formulas. That set entails a set of concequences Cn(S). And by definition, Cn(S) contains all those formulas that are true in all models of S.

In case of the flawed zombie formalization the set P was:

[latex]$P_1$: $\forall x . ( T(X) \rightarrow S(X) )$ \\
$P_2$ $\neg S(c)$[/latex]

In the case of Socrates the set S is:

[latex]$S_1$: man$(s)$ \\
$S_2$: $\forall x . ( $man$(x) \rightarrow $mortal$(x))$[/latex]

Note that symbolic logic doesn't care what you call those formulas: you may call them definitions, premises, assumptions, or even blue-globs-of-skrbl. What matters is that there exists a set of well-formed formulas.

In the case of set P, we can prove (using any sufficiently powerful sound proof system) that neg T(c) is in Cn(P). And in the case of set S, we can prove (using any sufficiently powerful sound proof system) that mortal(s) is in Cn(S). And in case of both sets, we can prove that they are consistent.

On the other hand, we have also sets of M and M' of formulas:

[latex]$M$: $\forall x . T(C)$ \\
$M'$: $\forall x . \neg $mortal$(x)$[/latex]

When we put P and M together we get an inconsistent set (and we can prove it inconsistent using any sufficiently powerful sound proof system). When we put S and M' together we get an inconsistent set.

The situation is the same.

Another difference is that the conclusion of the Socrates argument follows from the argument – a feature that used to be considered quite important.

The conclusion that follows from your argument is “human minds are not physical”.

Careful here. You always have to be extremely careful when you try to apply logical arguments to the Real WorldTM.

This is because to apply logic, you have to formalize your problem. [Note: I use formalize in the sense of: "express it using a formal language", not in the more restricted "write it down as a syllogisms"]. When you prove things, you prove that they hold in the formal system. This is an extremely crucial point.

Your results apply to the Real World only if you have done the formalization correctly. So what you get out is: "If I didn't make any errors in formalization, then this result holds." This is the best thing that you can ever hope to achieve with logic.

In practice, it is not possible to model anything completely. [And I'm not certain that it could be done in theory] You have to abstract things and hope that you don't throw out anything relevant.

The p-zombie arguments are abstracted to the extreme. The paper that Geoff posted reduced the whole question of minds into only four statements (well, they have five but they ignore one completely and could have left it out). By sheer accidence this is exactly the same number of formulas that I needed to model the game of Sudoku. So they reduce the whole complexity of brains and minds down to a level of a simple puzzle game. I see no reason to suppose that the formalization corresponds to reality.

So, the conclusion [of the M-logic based p-zombie argument from the paper that Geoff linked to] when translated back to natural language is: "If you can accurately model the problem of human consciousness using only four statements, two of which are not actually formalized at all and presented only in natural language, then consciousness is not physical".

Now this brings us to a third major difference and the one which you, LW and your logic lecturer appear to have completely missed.

If you add the negation of the conclusion to the premise of the Socrates argument you do not get an inconsistency.


I certainly missed that one.

Let's see, the conclusion was (using the previous syntax) mortal(s). So let's add neg mortal(s) to S to see what we get:

[latex]$S_1$: man$(s)$ \\
$S_2$: $\forall x . ( $man$(x) \rightarrow $mortal$(x))$ \\
$C: $\neg$ mortal$(s)$ \\
$N_1$: man$(s) \rightarrow $ mortal$(s)$ [instantiating $S_2$] \\
$N_2$: mortal$(s)$ [MP $S_1$, $N_1$]
[/latex]

Do you have an explanation why having both $C$ and $N_2$ among the conclusions is not an inconsistency? [Espcially given that one perfectly good way to define inconsistency is "Set P is inconsistent iff for some formula f, Cn(P) contains both f and neg f".]

Oh and by the way:

See above for my comment on accuracy of formalizations: garbage in, garbage out.
 
So now are you clear on the difference in logical structure????

The Socrates argument is a classic MP arguing from universals to particulars, yours is not.

With respect to "assuming your conclusion", the structure was exactly the same. I am amazed that you still don't understand this. In both cases there is a logically valid argument. In both cases you can introduce an additional statement which causes a contradiction. In neither case can one be accused of assuming ones conclusion by the person who wishes to introduce the extra statement ("everything is physical" or "nothing is mortal"). The truth is that it is the person attempting to introduce the extra statement who is attempting to get away with assuming his conclusion and not the person who supplied the original argument. In other words, your attempt to demonstrate I was assuming my conclusion not only failed, but failed because you were assuming your conclusion. LW correctly pointed out that if you wanted to challenge it then you need to challenge the assumption/premise/argument "zombies are possible" NOT accuse me of assuming my conclusion. I explained this to you at the time, and you told me to defer to my lecturers because you were sure you were right. But you were wrong.
 
It was a good thing that my internet connection at home is down. Since otherwise I might have posted stuff that I might have regretted. I have lots to say about that paper but before I write it in detail I have to familiarize myself better with K and M (I borrowed Blackburn et. al.'s Modal logic from library for that), and I probably can't do that today. And if they don't fix the internet connection (it came up for a short while in the morning but went out again), I won't be posting before monday.

No hurry, this thread will still be rolling along when I go back to Uni in October. :D

But the short version:

The paper can be summarized as: "I think that zombies are possible. Therefore computationalism is dead."

And unfortunately this is far more accurate summary than it should be.

OK, I look forward to the detailed critique. For the first time in a long time, there is actual philosophy happening on this board.
 
The conclusion that follows from your argument is “human minds are not physical”.

Now this brings us to a third major difference and the one which you, LW and your logic lecturer appear to have completely missed.

If you add the negation of the conclusion to the premise of the Socrates argument you do not get an inconsistency.

This is important because if you do, then the conclusion follows directly from the premise – otherwise known as assuming your conclusion.

OK, let's add the negation of the conclusion to the socrates argument:

(premise) Everything is mortal.
(a) All men are mortal.
(b) Socrates is a man.

And the conclusion that we get is "Socrates is mortal". Have we now committed the fallacy of assuming our conclusion? By the reasoning you used above, we have. Because if we add the sentence:

(c) Nothing is mortal

So you are saying there is no contradiction between "Everything is mortal" and "Socrates is mortal". You are correct, there isn't. So what?

If you add the negation of the conclusion “human minds are non-physical” to the premise of your argument you get an inconsistency. In other words your conclusion follows from your premise and (b) is completely superfluous.

(premise) Minds are physical.
(a) P-zombies are physically identical to humans but mindless.
(b) Humans have minds.

And the conclusion that we get is "minds are non-physical". Have we now committed the fallacy of assuming our conclusion? By the reasoning you used above, we have. Because if we add the sentence:

(c) Everything is physical.

So you are now saying that if you assume your conclusion (minds are physical), then you get a contradiction.

But Robin, all you are doing is experimenting with different ways of assuming your conclusion. Neither the zombie argument nor the socrates argument actually do this.

Again it used to be thought important that the conclusion did not follow from the premise or any of the definitions.

And it doesn't in either the zombie or socrates examples. It only does so IF you ADD the conclusion as a premise, like you keep trying to do but LW and myself do not.

Oh and by the way:

(a) P-zombies are physically identical to humans but noseless.
(b) Humans have noses.

And the conclusion that we get is "noses are non-physical". Have we now committed the fallacy of assuming our conclusion? By the reasoning you used above, we have. Because if we add the sentence:

(c) Everything is physical.

to the set we get an inconsistency.

Yes, but with (a) and (b) we STILL have not assumed our conclusion!!! It is a perfectly valid argument. It just isn't sound because one of the premises is clearly wrong because if p-zombies are physically identical to humans then they clearly do have noses. Similarly, you should have challenged the premise "zombies are possible", NOT accused me of assuming my conclusion.
 
Yes, but with (a) and (b) we STILL have not assumed our conclusion!!! It is a perfectly valid argument. It just isn't sound because one of the premises is clearly wrong because if p-zombies are physically identical to humans then they clearly do have noses. Similarly, you should have challenged the premise "zombies are possible", NOT accused me of assuming my conclusion.

"It just isn't sound because one of the premises is clearly wrong because if p-zombies are physically identical to humans then they clearly do have MINDS."
 
So what you are saying boils down to:

Assume minds are non-physical, even though there is no evidence for this besides the rather ill-defined concept of mind having non-physical connotations.

Therefore p-zombies are possible.

Therefore materialism is false.

Which in turn reduces to: Assume minds are non-physical. Therefore materialism is false/wrong.

However, playing with words does not make minds non-physical or physical. So you're going to need some decent evidence to base your assumption on. If that evidence is impossible, then by all means continue with your wordplay, but don't make the mistake of thinking it means anything about anything.
 
So in other words the idea that somehow a complete model of quantum physics will yield some sort of answer is silly. And, by the way, the observer's role in a lot of quantum physics seems to be incidental and there's some pretty good models in place to eliminate that role altogether. It's just math. If they could make a good mathematical model involving the fat content of KFC buckets O' chicken they'd use it all the same but there's no reason to get all philosophical about the role of chicken weight. It's a model of convenience.

Very good post, Jaguar.
 
Corrolation does not equal causation, but enough of it done under stringent scientific conditions sure does strongly indicate it. Why is conciousness somehow immune to it?

That is not correct. When you talk about "causation", you are refering to empirical, physical causation. In such cases, there is a cause (X) and an effect (Y). X always precedes Y. But in the case of brains and minds, do you think this law holds? Do you think that the brain processes that supposedly "cause" minds temporally precede the mental experiences the supposedly cause? Or do you think they occur simultaneously?

That is why correlation really does not equal causation. Minds and brains are simultaneuously phenomena. If you are seeing a red flower then the brain processes associated with your experience is occuring at exactly the same moment as the experience itself.

What reason is there to believe there's more unless there's evidence that there IS more to it, or we somehow establish a p-zombie or something like that?

Because we can already see that this situation is different to normal causation, for a whole series of interconnected reasons. When we try to compare consciousness to a physical process, the analogy breaks down - and not just because of the non-existence of a time lag.

Your question, as I have also said before, is the same as "why does the universe exist at all, and why does it behave with the specific rules it has rather than some other set of rules?.

Sure, there is a profound connection between the question "Why do minds exist at all?" and "Why does anything exist at all?" for the simple reason that if there were no mental experiences of a Universe, then nothing would be able to wonder why there was a Universe.

It's still perfectly valid to say "brains cause conciousness" in the same way that "electromagnetic waves cause light". (And on further look it is more accurate in both cases to say one IS the other, even though you can think of both as two seperate ideas.)

Yes, but what do you mean by "light"? Do you mean "the experience of seeing light"? Because if so, you're stuck with exactly the same problem. What is "unexperienced/unobserved light"? Answer: a disturbance in an electro-magnetic field.

I mean yeesh, what are you trying to say? Yes conciousness is great, I like it, and I'd rather not be without it, but it's not above science as something that can be studied. Can we observe it?

We can observe precisely one instance of consciousness: our own. These observations can only ever be subjective. Nobody else can share our observation if our own consciousness in order to objectify components of it.

Can we make testable predictions about it? Again, the answer seems to be yes. Can it affect the real world, and can the real world affect it? Seems that way to me.

Then it really does sound like you are advocating mental causality, the very idea of which causes MAJOR problems for scientists of mind.

How is it immune to science then? You did in fact directly claim not just that conciousness is "hard to study" but that is it literally IMPOSSIBLE for the scientific method to ever study, immunity from the method because it has "nothing to do" with the method in it's very nature.

That is correct. Science can only work with second-hand reports of conscious experiences. It can go no further. This puts it in a different category to any other sort of phenomena. Science will NEVER be able to tell us whether I see red the same way you do.

And oh yes, what is it about quantum mechanics that makes it "not physics" anyway?

QM is physics, it just isn't like the physics that went before it because it directly raises questions about metaphysics. This is exactly because it involves concepts like observers. Previous physical theories were materialistic. QM isn't.

Even if you did have some new field of study that said "oh, it's this particular wave form collapse that makes things aware of themselves", would that actually be satisfactory?

It would if you had empirical evidence: See Penrose.

I can see some future philosopher say "no! All you did was CORROLATE the two! You are still not even a centimeter closer to actually explaining conciousness. Why? Because I can think of your quantum waves as seperate from conciousness! We need a new field of study to find out what ACTUALLY does it and science as it is just can't do it.". All you are doing is substituting existing physics for some hopeful new physics.

For the record, that is exactly what the eliminativists are doing. Churchland calls it "Playing the futures market."

I'm really not sure what sort of distribusion curve you'd even expect to find.

I think you'd find very rare instances of very unlikely events and uncommon instances of unlikely events.

Something that corrolates entirely with human awareness and only seems to happen within the confines of an ape skull?

There is a new movement in cognitive science challenging that conception of consciousness. It is called "The Extended Mind" theory.

The following is a joint paper by Chalmer and Andy Clark, who until recently was Proffesor of Cognitive Science and the University at which I study Cognitive Science:

http://consc.net/papers/extended.html


And lastly, I have to say that everything I've read about how the brain operates does not in fact say it is a "quantum machine". I've yet to read anything about quantum events determining if a neuron fires.

See Penrose.

Perhaps you've read more than that though? Everything I've read says that while the scale a brain operates on is smaller than our visual resolution, it is still epically larger than the scale at which quantum interactions matter. The brain seems to operate on the same scale (relative to quantum mechanics) that my computer operates at, so the expectation that it would be effected by quantum irregularities in any meaningful way is about as likely as it affecting my computer in any meaningful way.

Again, see Penrose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR
 
Not in reality. For similarly inductive reasons that one provides cumulative empirical evidence against the actual possibility of zombies, you could argue that we would never actually find such fossils.

So far, so good.

No. But this is not a valid comparison to the p-zombie argument. I understand why you are asking these questions, but they are not relevant in the way that you think they are. You are assuming that the consciousness problem is no different to a normal empirical problem. That is not an assumption I will allow to stand. Therefore, the comparison fails anyway.

Oh, I see. You won't allow it to stand.

Tell you what, why don't we just forget about empirical evidence altogether and go on learning about the universe through introspection, religion and woo. Perhaps THAT'll work better. Otherwise, I advide we stick with what we can actually verify.

No. The zombie question straddles the objective/subjective split. The questions you are raising about evolution are purely objective/empirical. In effect, you are still assuming your conclusion. Your comparison only works if consciousness is physical.

No, because I didn't say it DOES or DOESN'T invalidate evolution. I said it wouldn't because of mere possibility. It does only if you actually find the fossil.
 
Well part of Crick's point was that, until we do this and see if there's any indication of what might be going on, it's all pointless philosophyzing.

Sorry, that doesn't work. If we can already see a conceptual problem, then deferring to science is not a valid response.

Perhaps I phrased it badly. These building blocks might be aspects of "out there" physics we haven't discovered or realized yet, and not necessarily something separate.

I think is prevented by the conceptual problems.
 
So now are you clear on the difference in logical structure????

The Socrates argument is a classic MP arguing from universals to particulars, yours is not.

Robin, what you are saying is true, but it is also completely irrelevant. You are still missing the point. It was a demonstration about assuming ones conclusion. Logically, the structure of the mistake you are making about the zombies is indentical to the mistake made by a person who claims that the socrates argument is invalid because you can add (c).
 
"It just isn't sound because one of the premises is clearly wrong because if p-zombies are physically identical to humans then they clearly do have MINDS."

You're getting there, but this is still wrong. It's a better response, in that it does not falsely accuse the zombist of assuming his conclusion. But it fails because you cannot claim that minds are clearly physical in the same way that you can claim that noses are physical. There is no argument about noses. Everybody agrees they are physical. But claiming that it is "clear that minds are physical" is plain false. You might want to claim that empirical evidence leads you to believe they "must be" physical, somehow - but that is a far cry from "minds are obviously physical."

The correct response to the argument is to deny one of the premises, but not the way you have done it.
 

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