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Tags val mcclatchey , flight 93 , photo , 911 conspiracy theory

View Poll Results: Is the plume in this photo from Flight 93 crashing?
Yes. 129 90.85%
No. 13 9.15%
Voters: 142. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 16th August 2006, 09:50 AM   #481
CurtC
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Originally Posted by c0rbin View Post
Of course I don't wish to stifle discussion...especially not on this board, but I must ask who benefits from this discussion?
Well, most of us here enjoy this kind of thing, so we benefit.

Other than that, I think it would be satisfying if we manage to take the air out of his argument, so that even he realizes that he gains nothing by trying to make it. I was able to accomplish that to some degree with Sun Zoo over at LC, and his argument that photos of flight 175 proved that the plane could not have been a 767-200, therefore must have been a different flight/plane. I think he still argues that it was different, but I haven't seen him say that the photo proves it anymore.

Of course, Killtown's web page has 200 crappy arguments, so even if we make him abandon this one, we still have 199 more of these to look forward to.
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Old 16th August 2006, 09:52 AM   #482
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Pardalis, I doubt I have the "expertise" to satisfy you, so you probably shouldn't participate in this discussion anymore.
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Old 16th August 2006, 09:53 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
Pardalis, I doubt I have the "expertise" to satisfy you, so you probably shouldn't participate in this discussion anymore.
Then why should anyone bother with your claim?
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Old 16th August 2006, 09:54 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Then why should anyone bother with your claim?
They don't. I haven't forced anybody to participate on this thread.

So ba-bye!

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Old 16th August 2006, 09:54 AM   #485
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Killtown, wouldn't you want to corroborate your "findings" with the proper authorities in the field?
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Old 16th August 2006, 09:57 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Killtown, wouldn't you want to corroborate your "findings" with the proper authorities in the field?
I'm not "qualified" enough for you, so ba-bye, thanks for playing!
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Old 16th August 2006, 09:59 AM   #487
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You didn't answer my question.

If you are after the truth, wouldn't you want to ask the proper experts' opinion?
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Old 16th August 2006, 09:59 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
Good, so apologize for calling me a "boy" and I'll respond to your questions.
No. Quit whining and grow a thick skin. You want to delve in hot button topics, learn to deal with the heat.

You estimate the size of the cloud at the hole, as shown in the photograph to be 2200 feet across. That's 600 meters. I posted a mathematical equation showing that 600 meters is possible, 1000 meters is even reasonable.

Do you have anything besides your own opinion that the cloud is just too big to be believable, or is that the best you have?

Answer it, don't answer it. Doesn't matter much to me. If you do then we all get to finally see your hand. If you don't, someone else on here will press you and you'll have to come up with something. Hurry up, boy! Start a-cipherin'!
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:00 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
4) the plume looks like it's traveling straight up, thereby NOT affected by much wind
How the heck can you determine which way the plume is travelling by a still photo?
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:01 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
4) the plume looks like it's traveling straight up, thereby NOT affected by much wind
The other points have been pretty well addressed already, so I'll take this one. How can you tell it's travelling straight up? A plume drifting in the wind would, at any snapshot in time, look like that, but over time it would simply appear farther and farther downwind. That seems to be what we're seeing in this photo.
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:05 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Buckwheatjones View Post
No.
Ok, ba-bye, thanks for playing!
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:07 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
How the heck can you determine which way the plume is travelling by a still photo?
Which plume does NOT look like it's affected by wind:

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Old 16th August 2006, 10:07 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
Ok, ba-bye, thanks for playing!
oh, lookee!
Baby is taking his ball and going home...
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:10 AM   #494
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Killtown, wouldn't you want to corroborate your findings with the proper authorities in the fields of physics, geomatics, meteorology, and the like?

Are you really interested in finding out what that plume of smoke is?

Are you willing to have your theory be falsified scientifically, as any theory should be?

Or do you want to hold on to your unprofessional layman analysis as the Gospel?
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:11 AM   #495
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I wonder how long it would have taken one of us, with the exact same posting style, no answers or brief, snippy answers to questions that just beg for more questions instead of proper debating, and attitude as killtown, to be banned at LC.

Kind of telling, don't you think?
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:12 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
Ok, ba-bye, thanks for playing!
Man alive, you are childish.
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:13 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Killtown, wouldn't you want to corroborate your findings with the proper authorities in the fields of physics, geomatics, meteorology, and the like?

Are you really interested in finding out what that plume of smoke is?

Are you willing to have your theory be falsified scientifically, as any theory should be?
If he was really after the truth he sure would.
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:14 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
Which plume does NOT look like it's affected by wind:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7...parison3.1.jpg
Better question: In which photo can you not see the source of the plume?
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:16 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
I'm not "qualified" enough for you, so ba-bye, thanks for playing!
Do you acknowledge that you don't have the necessary credentials and expertise to call Ms Val McClatchey's picture "a fraud"?
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:24 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Man alive, you are childish.
Be easy on him, he's just a boy.
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:27 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
oh, lookee!
Baby is taking his ball and going home...
You know, I think we've all been duped. At first we made a blanket assumption that we're dealing with a grown-up. But after reading the "buh-bye!" thing, it's evident we've got a 6th grade girl on the line.
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:28 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
Better question: In which photo can you not see the source of the plume?
What do you mean "source"? As in what caused the plumes? Why would that matter?
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:33 AM   #503
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Killtown, please answer my question:

Do you acknowledge that you don't have the necessary credentials and expertise to call Ms Val McClatchey's picture "a fraud"?
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:34 AM   #504
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Val's House where picture was taken: VH - 40 03 00.29 N, 78 52 28.16 W
Red Barn in picture (south tip of roof): RB - 40 3 0.44 N, 78 52 34.39 W
White Barn in picture (north tip of roof): WB - 40 2 58.22 N, 78 52 42 W
Crash site: CS - 40 3 3 N, 78 54 13 W

Distance from VH to RB: 148 meters V1
Distance from VH to WB: 334 meters V2
Distance from VH to CS: 2421 meters V3
Distance from RB to CS: 2335 meters V4
Distance from WB to CS: 2158 meters V5
Distance from RB to WB: 193 meters V6

Can someone who remembers their trig tell me the height of the triangle VH-RB-WB so we can confirm the Google Earth value of 32 meters?
Also, please confirm height from WB-RB-CS is 74 meters.

Yes, I'm going somewhere with this, just need some more math savvy people's input to get there.
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:42 AM   #505
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Arkan_Wolfshade, I afraid I can't help you with your above question, but I just wanted to know if you think my diagram is accurate if we hypothesize that my explosion sizes are accurate?
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:43 AM   #506
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Killtown, do you acknowledge that you don't have the necessary credentials and expertise to call Ms Val McClatchey's picture "a fraud"?
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:49 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
What do you mean "source"? As in what caused the plumes? Why would that matter?
Now which plumes are being affected by wind?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg plume-comparison31a.jpg (80.8 KB, 18 views)
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Old 16th August 2006, 10:50 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
Arkan_Wolfshade, I afraid I can't help you with your above question, but I just wanted to know if you think my diagram is accurate if we hypothesize that my explosion sizes are accurate?
I am unable to give you an answer at this time, as I am still researching methods for estimating sizes of objects, given known refences points, in a photograph. My above query is related to this, in part.
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:00 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
Apologize for calling my thoughts on the matter "rubbish," and I'll answer your questions.

They were shown to be false. You have not denied this.

A false argument is a rubbish one. The arguments have been rubbished.


I apologise if you find having your arguments countered upsetting. But I cannot apologise for calling a rubbish argument a rubbish argument.

Please answer the questions...
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:05 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
Which plume does NOT look like it's affected by wind:

-snip-
Which way is the wind blowing in each of the photos?

Do you deny the possibility that in picture 1 the wind may be blowing towards you? Or away from you? And you would not see the plume bending to one side?

Please, please answer as I am genuinely trying to understand how you can fail to grasp this point. Please say if this is wilful obtuseness and we can move on...
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:14 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
Now which plumes are being affected by wind?
Those pics are enlightening. In comparison to the overlaid pic (2nd one) we can see that Val's pic is showing a plume that is asymmetric. Assuming, for sake of argument, that the plume formed in a symmetric manner initially and is being deformed by wind we would see the plume stretching in a SE direction from the crash. This is consistent with what we see in the pic given that the direction of the picture is WNW.
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:17 AM   #512
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
Now which plumes are being affected by wind?
Hey, thanks for that photoshop pic! Now I'm MORE convinced than ever Val's plume is an ordnance plume! I even put it on my blog...

(scroll to bottom)
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/07...ce-blasts.html


Not to get back on topic, I posted that clip to compare the Val plume with the known jet crash plume that IS being affected by wind. But I guess we'd have to start debating what caused the plumes in the first place to debate this clip, so I guess my clip is invalid for this thread.
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:19 AM   #513
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Originally Posted by Dr Richard View Post
They were shown to be false. You have not denied this.

A false argument is a rubbish one. The arguments have been rubbished.


I apologise if you find having your arguments countered upsetting. But I cannot apologise for calling a rubbish argument a rubbish argument.

Please answer the questions...
Funny, I take "rubbish" to mean something else. What is the standard definition of "rubbish" if you don't mind me asking?
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:21 AM   #514
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
I am unable to give you an answer at this time, as I am still researching methods for estimating sizes of objects, given known refences points, in a photograph. My above query is related to this, in part.
Let's just hypothesize that UA 93's exlosion/smoke plume was the diameter I've chosen on my diagram at the time of Val's pic. Is my diagram accurate?
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:24 AM   #515
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
I just wanted to know if you think my diagram is accurate if we hypothesize that my explosion sizes are accurate?
How can we hypothesize that your measurements are accurate when your haven't shown your "science" to have any credibility?
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:26 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
Funny, I take "rubbish" to mean something else. What is the standard definition of "rubbish" if you don't mind me asking?
Let me suggest, to aid in your understanding of a colloquialism, that the message being sent is this:

the assessment of your approach to analysis and argument in this case is being compared to garbage, which is an apt comparison in that if your analysis were thrown into a trash heap, said disposition would not result in any loss of understanding, or enlightenment, regarding the various questions surrounding the 9-11 event being discussed. The gentleman is finding your argument of low to no value, due to the weaknesses in structure and lack of rigor, not you personally, as I read his comments.

DR
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:28 AM   #517
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Let me make sure that I understand the point of this thread. You're attempting to determine whether or not a woman is selling a faked picture showing a smoke plume from flight 93? Who cares?

As to the claim that this was a smoke plume from ordnance, where are the witnesses in the area that heard this additional mystery exposion? Certainly someone would have heard it, seen an additional smoke plume, found it, etc...
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:34 AM   #518
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Thanks again mortimer!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...howtopic=10738
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:37 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
Can someone who remembers their trig tell me the height of the triangle VH-RB-WB so we can confirm the Google Earth value of 32 meters?
Also, please confirm height from WB-RB-CS is 74 meters.
This better be worth it. Doing it numerically by hand, I get 32.7 meters and 74.6 meters respectively for your triangle heights.
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:38 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by Killtown View Post
Hey, thanks for that photoshop pic! Now I'm MORE convinced than ever Val's plume is an ordnance plume! I even put it on my blog...
Tell me, are we supposed to believe that this "ordnance plume" shifted 90 degrees?

Shouldn't an ordnance plume be a different color?

Oh, and do you acknowledge that you don't have the necessary credentials and expertise to call Ms Val McClatchey's picture "a fraud"?
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