ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bush administration

Reply
Old 30th October 2006, 10:08 AM   #1
geggy
Muse
 
geggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 530
question about bush admin "incompetence"

This probably belongs in the political forum but this is sort of relate to the notion of "intelligence failure" by the bush administration in preventing the 9/11 attack which in my opinion, is absurd.

If you think the bush administration is so incompetence then how did they come to win two elections in a row (and get away with it)?

Even if they did win these two elections honestly and fairly (yeah right), doesn't it show the true intelligent level of the voters in this country?
geggy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 10:12 AM   #2
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,260
This is democracy. We live in an age of television.

When you put the two together, you realize that ability to do the job has nothing to do with electability. It comes down to nicer hair. Who looks better on TV. thats how Kennedy beat Nixon.

And the fact that the opposing party can't mount anything close to a decent campaign helps.
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 10:16 AM   #3
Arkan_Wolfshade
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,158
Originally Posted by geggy View Post
This probably belongs in the political forum but this is sort of relate to the notion of "intelligence failure" by the bush administration in preventing the 9/11 attack which in my opinion, is absurd.

If you think the bush administration is so incompetence then how did they come to win two elections in a row (and get away with it)?

Even if they did win these two elections honestly and fairly (yeah right), doesn't it show the true intelligent level of the voters in this country?
You're right; it belongs in the Politics subforum.
Arkan_Wolfshade is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 10:20 AM   #4
defaultdotxbe
Drunken Shikigami
 
defaultdotxbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,474
Originally Posted by geggy View Post
This probably belongs in the political forum but this is sort of relate to the notion of "intelligence failure" by the bush administration in preventing the 9/11 attack which in my opinion, is absurd.

If you think the bush administration is so incompetence then how did they come to win two elections in a row (and get away with it)?

Even if they did win these two elections honestly and fairly (yeah right), doesn't it show the true intelligent level of the voters in this country?
so let me get this straight, your saying the notion of LIHOI is flawed because the bush admin was clever enough to steal two elections? lol, your standards of evidence are getting worse every day

and to answer your last question:
Quote:
doesn't it show the true intelligent level of the voters in this country?
yes, yes it does
__________________
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein
defaultdotxbe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 10:44 AM   #5
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,134
I think the issue of the intelligence of the president is an interesting one, but since there doesn't seem to be a good non-ambiguous answer to exactly what intelligence is there may not be a non-ambigous objective answer to the question.

Having said that, the nature of the Bush presidency is unusual, I think, to the degree that it has been defined by others beside Bush. Why is that? Bush seems to be a non-curious individual without strong commitments to any ideology. The ideology of the Bush administration seems to be driven by Rove and Cheney and perhaps some others that fit in with Cheney's ideas. Bush at times just seems he's along for the ride.

I agree that the fact that Bush was able to get elected implies some kind of intelligence, but the key to Bush's election may not be his own intelligence, which seems below average, but rather the skill, intelligence and ruthlessness of Rove.
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 10:54 AM   #6
Spindrift
Under-appreciated Sardonic Sniper
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 15,989
Originally Posted by geggy View Post
This probably belongs in the political forum but this is sort of relate to the notion of "intelligence failure" by the bush administration in preventing the 9/11 attack which in my opinion, is absurd.

If you think the bush administration is so incompetence then how did they come to win two elections in a row (and get away with it)?

Even if they did win these two elections honestly and fairly (yeah right), doesn't it show the true intelligent level of the voters in this country?
Being good at one thing does not imply expertise in another area.

The Cheney/Rove team knows how to run and win elections for GWB.

Just because one can win an election doesn't in any way imply the ability to actually perform the job to which one is elected.
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 11:06 AM   #7
PerryLogan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 980
What's the problem? Stealing is a much simpler thing than hoaxing. Dumping Democratic registrations in the trash is easier than fooling (or cowing) all the structural engineers in the world. Only Reptoids could do that.

Last edited by PerryLogan; 30th October 2006 at 11:09 AM.
PerryLogan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 11:10 AM   #8
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,260
There are also instances of "politically minded" citizens taking matters into their own hands and doing things without consent or knowledge of the larger pary they think they represent.
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 11:17 AM   #9
PerryLogan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 980
So the true mastermind of 9/11 is the guy who falls asleep at public functions and shot his friend in the face. Interesting...
PerryLogan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 11:53 AM   #10
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,329
What is it about politics?

Why is it people who disagree with the choice of president are utterly unable to accept the simple truth that MOST of their fellow citizens simply don't agree with them? Why must this be explained by "stealing elections" or claims that everyone else is stupid?

Why is it people only want democracy when their chosen party wins?

Hypocritical much?

The people of the USA spoke. They wanted the Republicans. That has nothing to do with competence or lackthereof in the Republican camp. It has to do with the desires and wants of the citizens of the United States.

Also, I believe much of the incompetence charge is levelled, not at the administration, but at the broader US Government - specifically the CIA and FBI. And the incompetence occured, not just during the Republican Administration, but over a decade and more.

Personally, I don't believe the government was incompetent. Wait. Let me rephrase that. All governments are incompetent to some degree. I do not believe incompetence explains 9/11 happening. I believe the government departments were powerless to prevent it.

I believe the very nature of the USA, the freedoms that its citizens enjoy, the emphasis on fair trial, the willingness to allow foreigners to enter, and so forth, was what allowed 9/11 to happen, and made it unavoidable.

-Gumboot
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 11:56 AM   #11
Pardalis
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 25,817
291
Pardalis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 12:09 PM   #12
boloboffin
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,988
Gumboot -

Do you hear railings about how Reagan stole the elections? Or Bush 41?

George W. Bush should not have been sworn in as President in 2001. It all came down to Florida, and the Florida vote was improper on many different levels, from the disenfranchising of African-American voters, to poorly designed ballots, to having the chairperson of the Bush2000 campaign in Florida also overseeing the elections...

An objective recount of all ballots (including overvotes where a person was marked AND written in) would have had Gore winning by the same kind of margin that he won the popular vote. (How about that, Gumboot? Most people in American WANTED Gore to be their president. Most people in America DID agree with us.) More voters in Florida voted for Gore than Bush. Gore should have been the certified winner of Florida's electoral votes, and he should have been our President.

I'm not getting involved in what Gore asked for, or anything like that. If all the votes had been counted properly, Gore would have been sworn in that January. And I cannot say that the 9/11 attack might not have occured, but I will state my opinion that Gore would have responded to the Cole attack when the FBI/CIA signed off on Al-Qaeda sponsorship in February, and that he would have taken things like the Aug 6 PDB a hell of a lot more seriously.
boloboffin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 12:13 PM   #13
PerryLogan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 980
Incompetence is relevant to the conspiracy issue, so it's only fair to point out that a significant number of historians are already rating this administration as the worst in American history.

This suggests Gumboot may be mistaken--as does a look at the Clinton administrations' excellent record against terrorism (it's on my webpage).

More importantly, the opinion of the historians, and the adminstration's unparalleled track record of cataclysmic failure, suggest these guys could not have engineered and brought off the trickiest hoax ever--fooling everyone in the world except a few weird white guys.

Incompetence is what best explains 9/11. If these guys had set out to do 9/11, 9/11 would most certainly not have happened.

Last edited by PerryLogan; 30th October 2006 at 12:16 PM.
PerryLogan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 01:24 PM   #14
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,348
Originally Posted by boloboffin View Post
Gumboot -

Do you hear railings about how Reagan stole the elections? Or Bush 41?

George W. Bush should not have been sworn in as President in 2001. It all came down to Florida, and the Florida vote was improper on many different levels, from the disenfranchising of African-American voters, to poorly designed ballots, to having the chairperson of the Bush2000 campaign in Florida also overseeing the elections...

An objective recount of all ballots (including overvotes where a person was marked AND written in) would have had Gore winning by the same kind of margin that he won the popular vote. (How about that, Gumboot? Most people in American WANTED Gore to be their president. Most people in America DID agree with us.) More voters in Florida voted for Gore than Bush. Gore should have been the certified winner of Florida's electoral votes, and he should have been our President.

I'm not getting involved in what Gore asked for, or anything like that. If all the votes had been counted properly, Gore would have been sworn in that January. And I cannot say that the 9/11 attack might not have occured, but I will state my opinion that Gore would have responded to the Cole attack when the FBI/CIA signed off on Al-Qaeda sponsorship in February, and that he would have taken things like the Aug 6 PDB a hell of a lot more seriously.
if Gore was president he would have moved to space, and taken the choosen people, just those who helped him invent the internet

Gore, he would have raised taxes on California and blamed California for 9/11.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 01:26 PM   #15
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,260
OK ok, I think it has to go to the politics board now.
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 01:33 PM   #16
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,368
Originally Posted by Donal View Post
OK ok, I think it has to go to the politics board now.
Do you really believe they want all these 911-iraq threads?
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 01:52 PM   #17
boloboffin
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,988
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
if Gore was president he would have moved to space, and taken the choosen people, just those who helped him invent the internet

Gore, he would have raised taxes on California and blamed California for 9/11.
Put. Down. The Bong.
boloboffin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 01:55 PM   #18
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,348
ok
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 01:57 PM   #19
boloboffin
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,988
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
ok
hehe
boloboffin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 02:11 PM   #20
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,260
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Do you really believe they want all these 911-iraq threads?

Its turning into a Dems vs Reps. I know they have plenty of those in there, but thats where they belong. Besides, its dizzying enough dealing with the CTists. I can't handle the cheerleading coming from both sides of the poltical spectrum.
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 03:07 PM   #21
bjb
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,079
Originally Posted by geggy View Post
If you think the bush administration is so incompetence then how did they come to win two elections in a row (and get away with it)?
Good question! You have to realize the election campaign is a different group of people from the Bush administration. A few weeks ago on the Daily Show, Jon Stewart brought up this subject by pointed out that the Republicans are good at winning elections but bad at running the country. Ed Gillespie, who ran the campaign, was the guest and while this was a compliment to his campaign management, he still had to defend the Bush administration.

Go to the Comedy Central website and search for Ed Gillespie. The interview is in two parts.


Originally Posted by geggy View Post
Even if they did win these two elections honestly and fairly (yeah right), doesn't it show the true intelligent level of the voters in this country?
If you take the time to read elsewhere in the JREF forum, and read James Randi's commentaries, you will see that there is plenty of deluded thinking going on in this world. Most people will agree that believing in elves and faries is pretty bizarre, but you will find a few people who honestly believe in such nonsense. More common nonsense beliefs include dowsing, psychics, remote viewing, etc. These can easily be shown to be false and that their believers are deluding themselves. Once you realize how people convince themselves of all sorts of nonsense, it isn't too difficult to see why so many people believed the lies told during the presidental campaign and voted for George Bush.

Of course, once you see how people like to delude themselves, it becomes very easy to see how some people fall for every conspiracy theory that comes along. Conspiracy theories, political beliefs, etc. may not be paranormal in nature, but it is all part of the same irrational thinking that leads to paranormal beliefs. It is *not* a matter of intelligence but a matter of emotional vs. rational thought.
bjb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 03:20 PM   #22
DanKirby
Scholar
 
DanKirby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by boloboffin View Post
Most people in American WANTED Gore to be their president. Most people in America DID agree with us.)
Slight correction. MORE people voted for Gore, but not "most". "Most" means a majority of the total votes, which Gore did not have (it was something like 49%-48%, as I recall).
DanKirby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 03:20 PM   #23
Retrograde
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just downstream from the Big Tree
Posts: 618
Quote:
If you think the bush administration is so incompetence then how did they come to win two elections in a row (and get away with it)?
People can be very competent at things they care about (gaining power, enriching political cronies, enriching themselves) while being not so competent at things they don't care about (ensuring the safety of the populace, figuring out how to run a country after you've "liberated" it). I'm sure that even you are much better at some things than at others - I know I am.

Quote:
Even if they did win these two elections honestly and fairly (yeah right), doesn't it show the true intelligent level of the voters in this country?
Yeah, about half of them are below average I'd like to see a civics test for voters, but that's not PC right now.
Retrograde is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2006, 03:21 PM   #24
hellaeon
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,490
[derail]
Oliver who is that in your avatar?
[/derail]
hellaeon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2006, 09:13 AM   #25
firecoins
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 3,206
Originally Posted by geggy View Post
This probably belongs in the political forum but this is sort of relate to the notion of "intelligence failure" by the bush administration in preventing the 9/11 attack which in my opinion, is absurd.?
Well the intelligence failures were in part Bush's fault, they extended years if not decades prior to his election. The Soviet Union infiltrated every part of the US gov't during the Cold War.
firecoins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:32 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.