Killtown's new "smoking gun" for flight 93, debunked

[Anti-sophist]

I am posting this for educational purposes as it is a "new" theory and I spent some time debunking it (like 9 minutes). You may run into it.

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/12...ned-after.html

In it he has a photo I had never seen from WTAE showing the impact area apparently without the fire damage or raging fire in the "trees" section.



His conclusion is because he cannot see the "massive damage" in the trees, that this photo must have been taken before the fires were even set. In it, we see no smoke or raging fire, so his conclusion is obviously that this chopper was the first to get there, before the fires in the forest were even set. His timeline, then, would require this photo to have been taken very soon after the alleged impact, before the fires were set, and then well before the aerials and other photos taken on the 12th and afterwards.

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.

[Orphia Nay]

Good debunking, Anti-sophist, and thanks for the heads-up.

(ETA: The link to the original pic doesn't work for me. )

[babazaroni]

Originally Posted by Anti-sophist

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.

Nice detective work. Of course Killtown will claim the url has been altered.

Killtown tries to compare a far away shot with one taken close and more or less above the burn area and since he thinks they don't look alike, it supports his theory.

Here is the first response:

Quote:

Now THAT'S a great find! And it makes sense. I bet they burned the forest as part of the cover-up-- perhaps to keep people out of the forest until they had planted enough flight 93 appropriate stuff?

[Brainster]

Were helicopters allowed up in the air on 9/12?

[Bell]

And ofcourse the Action News chopter was up and in the air over Shanksville well before the 'alleged plane crash' happened

[Gravy]

Yeah, Killtown thinks that a news helicopter made it to the remote site before the people who were a few hundred yards away, or the first responders who were down the road.

On his website he has numerous photos of the smoking crater and forest. What a freakishly stupid person he is.

[babazaroni]

From this photo:



Killtown claims a trajectory for a device that was supposed to cause fire damage at the impact zone, can be seen. However, he neglects to see that the area next to the burned forest is also burned. This lines up with the aircraft approach shown below:

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by Anti-sophist

I am posting this for educational purposes as it is a "new" theory and I spent some time debunking it (like 9 minutes). You may run into it.

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/12...ned-after.html

In it he has a photo I had never seen from WTAE showing the impact area apparently without the fire damage or raging fire in the "trees" section.

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger...erial-wtae.png

His conclusion is because he cannot see the "massive damage" in the trees, that this photo must have been taken before the fires were even set. In it, we see no smoke or raging fire, so his conclusion is obviously that this chopper was the first to get there, before the fires in the forest were even set. His timeline, then, would require this photo to have been taken very soon after the alleged impact, before the fires were set, and then well before the aerials and other photos taken on the 12th and afterwards.

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.

Not quite since the 12th could simply be the date the jpeg was loaded on the website.
However in order for this helicopter to be there before any fire was set it would have to have arrived before the fire dept, which would be before the explosion and smoke. How far away from Shankesville is the home town for WTAE? Obviously they would only be in the area before the crash if this were a normal area for them to patrol. It would require them to be in the area when the false (according to killclown) aircraft flew over. This means that the pilot, the reporter, the cameraman and others employed by WTAE are all in-on-it(not that such a thing would bother KT, the more people involved the better). On 9/11/01 at about the time of the crash all aircraft were grounded thus if this was taken shortly after the crash(when fires would still be burning heavily) they would be disobeying the grounding order(very, very bad). thus it is pretty obvious that the date stamp is indeed the date the picture was taken, well after the fires were out.

Furthermore the shadow of the reporter's head illustrates that the sun would be in a position to have the fire area in shadow thus masking the blackened area.

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Were helicopters allowed up in the air on 9/12?

Good point.
It was made nation wide for all civilian aircraft at 9:25 on Sept 11.

I found two different dates for the lifting order, Sept 13 and Sept 14 BUT I seem to recall that it was lifted first for helicopters which could mean that they were in the air on Sept 12.

[Alt+F4]

Why doesn't Killtown just get in touch with the TV news crew and ask them when the photograph was taken?

Oh never mind, the conspiracy liars don't go beyond Google.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

Furthermore the shadow of the reporter's head illustrates that the sun would be in a position to have the fire area in shadow thus masking the blackened area.

I agree. All I can see of the trees is a fuzzy black blob, with no details. Not surprising with the general quality of that picture.

Of course, this would have come from a video, right? Does anyone know where that video could be found? It might show a better angle on the trees as the helicopter moves around. I'm not suggesting that Killtown cherry-picked this image, but we have to allow for the possibility that Killtown cherry-picked this image

[uk_dave]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Why doesn't Killtown just get in touch with the TV news crew and ask them when the photograph was taken?

Oh never mind, the conspiracy liars don't go beyond Google.

Because the obvious response he would get from the TV station would be:

"Awwww how cute! So, what did santa bring you little boy?"

[Mancman]

How does Killtown even manage to breathe?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

(edit: D'oh. I can't post links yet, but I believe citing my sources is important, so I had to mangle them slightly. Sorry. )

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

How far away from Shankesville is the home town for WTAE?

WTAE is a local news channel in my area. They're based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

According to Google Maps it's about an 80 mile drive from Pittsburgh to Shanksville. Probably about 70 miles as the crow flies.

Beyond that, though, the man seen in that image is not a reporter; it's then-Governor of Pennsylvania, Tom Ridge¹. The first time he visited the site, according to an article dated September 19th², seems to be September 20, 2001:

Quote:

Attorney General John Ashcroft is scheduled to visit the crash site with FBI Director Robert Mueller and Gov. Tom Ridge on Thursday.

...although I may be wrong about that. Finding past articles on their site is a real pain.

--
¹ According to the alternate text attached to the exact same image in a slideshow on WTAE's website: html.thepittsburghchannel.com/sh/slideshow/_auto/sh1364s13.html (Note: There's also some pictures of debris that I haven't seen before.)

² thepittsburghchannel.com/news/966339/detail.html

[uk_dave]

Killtown throws a paddy...........

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=1876

can we all say "ahhhhhhhhh"?

[TC329]

let me take a moment while you're being all smug and conceited, and since Killtown himself is unable to defend himself, to tell you that you are incorrect when you state he claims this was taken on the 11th. He claims it was taken on the 12th and shows no damage to that area.

Don't bother shooting the messenger............

Originally Posted by Anti-sophist

I am posting this for educational purposes as it is a "new" theory and I spent some time debunking it (like 9 minutes). You may run into it.

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/12...ned-after.html

In it he has a photo I had never seen from WTAE showing the impact area apparently without the fire damage or raging fire in the "trees" section.

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger...erial-wtae.png

His conclusion is because he cannot see the "massive damage" in the trees, that this photo must have been taken before the fires were even set. In it, we see no smoke or raging fire, so his conclusion is obviously that this chopper was the first to get there, before the fires in the forest were even set. His timeline, then, would require this photo to have been taken very soon after the alleged impact, before the fires were set, and then well before the aerials and other photos taken on the 12th and afterwards.

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by TC329

let me take a moment while you're being all smug and conceited, and since Killtown himself is unable to defend himself, to tell you that you are incorrect when you state he claims this was taken on the 11th. He claims it was taken on the 12th and shows no damage to that area.

Killtown is one of the worst photographic interpreters on the planet.

-Gumboot

[Anti-sophist]

Killtown never made the claim the photo was taken on the 11th. I made that conclusion based upon all the other evidence that that would have to be the date of the photo given Killtown's theory. If the arial shots were taken on the 12th, after the fire, and this photo was taken before the fire, the only logical time would be on the 11th... that's the only way the facts would fit his timeline. Killtown, however, blew my mind, instead, by MOVING every other piece of evidence to make the timeline fit. He now claims all those aerial photos taken on the 12th were actually taken at a later date.

As usual, Killtown's argument has now taken a turn for the bizarre. He also thinks this photo "clearly" shows no damage, and thus "clearly" was taken before the fire. I've asked Killtown, since he believes the evidence is so clear, to take this smoking gun to the media. If it's as clear as he says it is, it blows the case wide open. He has yet to do this, as far as I know.

In KT's new theory, the "bomb" went off in the field on the 11th (I guess?). At some point on the 12th, a helicopter photographed the area. The fire was then set. Some time later, aerials were taken and backdated to the 12th. He considers this theory "better".

[rjh01]

Killtown is changing his story. He has not, however changed his blog.

Quote:

To me, it looks unmistakable that the forest section seen in WTAE’s chopper photo and the above video of the scene on the day of the attack looks no where as near as damaged as seen in all the other aerials taken after 9/11 which suggests the forest was further lit on fire to give the illusion that there was more damage to the scene since the perps botched the crash scene up so bad on 9/11.

This is taken from Killtown's blog (link in post 1). I am having difficulty interpreting the above to read that he claims that the photo was taken on any other day other than on 11 September. The bolding is in the original.


Now who is 'dumb?'

[Anti-sophist]

A more up-to-date version of his "story" can be found here:
http://colboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=...=asc&start=210

He has taken a quick trip from "not claiming it was taken on 9/11" which he posted on LC and the other guy repeated here, and now is back towards the original claim of it being taken on 9/11.

The basic reasoning, of course, is the theory becomes totally ridiculous if we assume it was taken on 9/12. I explain it in more detail to KT in that thread, and I think he realizes that. However, last time I thought I had talk some sense in KT by proving that tail sections don't always survive plane crashes, he decided to claim I was wrong and the F4 video was a psyops.

[jaydeehess]

It boggles the mind..........


So if it shows the area prior to any destruction and this is photographed after the 11th then is the entire town of Shankesville in on the cover-up? Those who heard or saw anything and reported that it occured on the 11th would have to have been coerced somehow to declare that it occured on the 11th rather than afterward while knowing that the world press would be desending on their town shortly.

Kt gets deeper into the mud with every convoluted procalamtion.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

Good point.
It was made nation wide for all civilian aircraft at 9:25 on Sept 11.

I found two different dates for the lifting order, Sept 13 and Sept 14 BUT I seem to recall that it was lifted first for helicopters which could mean that they were in the air on Sept 12.

I have not caught up all the way on this tread; but;

I flew on 9/12 and 9/13 but I was military.

The police flew! I do not see why law enforcement could not use any asset and fly on 9/12.

The police followed up on my flight at an FBO when I got gas. I was flying a light aircraft.

The CAP flew blood products all over the US, since commercial flights were grounded and could not do the vital service. (Civil Air Patrol)

You would have to check up the other flights; but as I said a small police plane flew in after I gased up to make sure I was good to go and it helps I had my military flight plan etc.

[babazaroni]

Thanks Cl1mh4224rd and welcome to the forum. Here is your post with the links fixed.

Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd

(edit: D'oh. I can't post links yet, but I believe citing my sources is important, so I had to mangle them slightly. Sorry. )

Quote:

How far away from Shankesville is the home town for WTAE?

WTAE is a local news channel in my area. They're based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

According to Google Maps it's about an 80 mile drive from Pittsburgh to Shanksville. Probably about 70 miles as the crow flies.

Beyond that, though, the man seen in that image is not a reporter; it's then-Governor of Pennsylvania, Tom Ridge¹. The first time he visited the site, according to an article dated September 19th², seems to be September 20, 2001:

Quote:

Attorney General John Ashcroft is scheduled to visit the crash site with FBI Director Robert Mueller and Gov. Tom Ridge on Thursday.

...although I may be wrong about that. Finding past articles on their site is a real pain.

--
¹ According to the alternate text attached to the exact same image in a slideshow on WTAE's website: http://html.thepittsburghchannel.com...sh1364s13.html (Note: There's also some pictures of debris that I haven't seen before.)

² http://thepittsburghchannel.com/news/966339/detail.html

[Orphia Nay]

Thanks Cl1mh4224rd for the heads-up about that being Tom Ridge.
Here's what I have just found:

http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...rashnat2p2.asp

Quote:

Day of Terror: Outside tiny Shanksville, a fourth deadly stroke

Wednesday, September 12, 2001
[...]
Yesterday, the priority of the FBI and state troopers was to protect the scene.
[...]
Gov. Tom Ridge arrived about 6:15 p.m., flying over the crash scene in a National Guard helicopter before being briefed on the ground by state police.

[rjh01]

Is there any point in continuing with this thread? Or starting any thread where Killtown has raised any issues. I think his credibility has just gone out the window. That is, if he had any to start with.

[defaultdotxbe]

Originally Posted by rjh01

Is there any point in continuing with this thread? Or starting any thread where Killtown has raised any issues. I think his credibility has just gone out the window. That is, if he had any to start with.

i dont think KTs credibility is capable of goign out the window, as far as im concerned it was never in the building to begin with

[Free Thinkr]

I am now dumber for having considered Killtown's "theory" for the brief moment required to dismiss it as ridiculous.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Originally Posted by orphia nay

Thanks Cl1mh4224rd for the heads-up about that being Tom Ridge.
Here's what I have just found:

post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp

Ahh, there we go. Thanks.

It's a little unclear to me, though, on which day he actually flew over the crash site; the 11th or the 12th. Either way, though, Killtown's claim makes even less sense. It implies now that it had been either 8 or 32 hours after the crash before "They" set the trees on fire. Slackers.

[Minadin]

It sounds to me like it might have been at around 6pm on the 11th, when Gov. Ridge visited, based on the newspaper story. All of the other events the writer cited happened on the 11th, and stories are usually published early in the morning on the day they are dated. But, that doesn't mean that he didn't visit by helicopter on the 12th as well, so the photograph could have been taken then. Either way, it doesn't seem to matter.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd

Ahh, there we go. Thanks.

It's a little unclear to me, though, on which day he actually flew over the crash site; the 11th or the 12th. Either way, though, Killtown's claim makes even less sense. It implies now that it had been either 8 or 32 hours after the crash before "They" set the trees on fire. Slackers.

Even Killtown isn't sure:

Quote:

Now look at this WTAE photo taken from a National Guard helicotper with PA's Gov. Tom Ridge on board that was taken after 6 p.m. on what looks like 9/11. See if you can see the extent of forest damage as in the above aerial or the proceeding aerials

And in an article dated Sept. 12th, we have this:

Quote:

There were 20 FBI agents on hand yesterday, and another 30 were expected last night. The contingent of 100 state troopers was expected to swell to 150. They planned to spend last night spaced out along the crash perimeter within each other's eyesight to ward off curiosity seekers and prevent anyone from tampering with evidence.

Two curiosity seekers were arrested for trying to get through the perimeter, one of them aboard an all-terrain vehicle.

Also on hand were officials from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency, the Federal Aviation Administration and United Airlines. A team from the National Transportation Safety Board was en route.

Gov. Tom Ridge arrived about 6:15 p.m., flying over the crash scene in a National Guard helicopter before being briefed on the ground by state police.

So I'd say it was taken on the 11th, barring a more definitive statement from those involved.

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Horatius

Even Killtown isn't sure:




And in an article dated Sept. 12th, we have this:



So I'd say it was taken on the 11th, barring a more definitive statement from those involved.

Er, Horatius, that was the article I posted. I found it on the net, but it is actually in Killtown's blog, I see.

But, yes, I thought it was pretty clear that it states Ridge visited after 6.15pm on the 11th, and the article went to press later that night. It was written to be read on the 12th.

I've posted at Killtown's blog, but he makes so many bad judgements that I just haven't the time or inclination to address them all. I agree with Gravy - he is freakishly stupid.

[TC329]

I'm sorry, can you show me what it is you debunked and how you debunked it exactly?

The only thing I seem to conclude is that it is inconclusive to determine whether or not the trees are burnt and if they aren't you proved this pic was taken before the aerial showing them burnt and after the crash.

I think a bunch of adults came together just to concur they all believe Killtown to be "freakishly stupid" while slapping each others high-5's.


I happen to believe that the forest was burnt earlier, but I haven't seen anyone prove KT wrong so for now, I keep the option in my mind that this could be an entirely staged scene created later that night.

[rjh01]

It is up to KT to post evidence that the offical story is not 100% correct. He has attempted to do that by posting certain photos. However he cannot make up his mind when those photos were taken. Nor do the photos show what KT says they should show.

In short KT has provided no credible evidence.

I am sure others will say more.

[A W Smith]

I have witnessed the results of brush fires in forests immediately after they were extinguished and days afterward. In some fires that extinguish quickly for example an air fuel burst, the brush beneath the canopy will burn but the leaves in the canopy (if the trees are tall enough to escape the brush fire,)will remain for a day or two. Until the canopy dies off from the effects of fire on the lower tree trunks.

[Strider1974]

TC329 - This photo must be taken in context with all the other evidence from that time. Trying to interpret details of one photo out of context is nothing but hot air.
I suspect that KT has gone down this road deliberately. By removing the context and concentrating on a single frame he makes his arguments seem more persuasive

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Originally Posted by TC329

I'm sorry, can you show me what it is you debunked and how you debunked it exactly?

The only thing I seem to conclude is that it is inconclusive to determine whether or not the trees are burnt and if they aren't you proved this pic was taken before the aerial showing them burnt and after the crash.

I think a bunch of adults came together just to concur they all believe Killtown to be "freakishly stupid" while slapping each others high-5's.


I happen to believe that the forest was burnt earlier, but I haven't seen anyone prove KT wrong so for now, I keep the option in my mind that this could be an entirely staged scene created later that night.

Have you read the KT thread from the archive?

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by TC329

I think a bunch of adults came together just to concur they all believe Killtown to be "freakishly stupid" while slapping each others high-5's.

What you have to remember is, there's a lot of history with KT. Even if he's right about when this particular phot was taken, there's still a lot of other reasons to think he's "freakishly stupid".

[A W Smith]

all thats missing from this picture and others like it are his moms refrigerator magnets.

http://killtown.911review.org/images.../diagram_a.jpg

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by TC329

I'm sorry, can you show me what it is you debunked and how you debunked it exactly?

The only thing I seem to conclude is that it is inconclusive to determine whether or not the trees are burnt and if they aren't you proved this pic was taken before the aerial showing them burnt and after the crash.

I think a bunch of adults came together just to concur they all believe Killtown to be "freakishly stupid" while slapping each others high-5's.


I happen to believe that the forest was burnt earlier, but I haven't seen anyone prove KT wrong so for now, I keep the option in my mind that this could be an entirely staged scene created later that night.

It is thoroughly debunked in that KT reached the conclusion that this photo shows the forest unburned but with the crater already there. From there he determines that the forested area was burned sometime after the supposed crash.
The photo DOES NOT demonstrate that the forest is unburned and thus any conclusions that he arrives at that require the forest to be unburned at the time of this photo are simply not backed up by any evidence whatsoever.

He might as well have stated that this photo demonstrates that monkeys flew out of his butt. Perhaps they did but this photo bears not on such a claim.

[mortimer]

Killtown's latest analysis is classic, right up there with adding mph and ft:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=1924

Originally Posted by killtown @ LCF

Looks like it's coming down "nearly 90 degs" to me: