Skepticism and The Normal

Bubb, you can keep writing true = true, false = false and unknown = unknown for as long as you like, it's not really an argument given that also fish = fish.

flim flam, the law of identity is one of the foundations of western philosophy.

Yes these are three possible truth values in a trivalent logic system.

yes, thank you

However this appears to bear no relationship to how use them and, as many people have pointed out before, trivalent logic is not original.

who cares if it's not original? Did I ever claim I invented it? no. I simply am the founding developer of a system of online dialectic that uses a three value logic.

And we 'use' them naturally at a metalogical level.

As far as I can work out what you're thinking at all, the confusion seems to arise (yet again) from your bafflingly inconsistent and non-standard use of language.

Please stop confusing my definitions as you own misunderstanding.

Firstly the word "objectively". My best guess so far is that OS012 is a metalogical system that doesn't even try to ascribe truth values to statements but instead serves only to classify statements into three groups:

OS 012 is a metalogical system that presribes three truth values to IDEAS. IDeas get crunched and parsed into statements.

i) What you bizarrely call "objectively true", actually contains all objective statements to which we are currently capable of ascribing a truth value i.e., objective true statements "flimflam is a man", and objective false statements "George W. Bush is made of meringue"

An objective and true idea contains information that is mutually observable to be true to it's value relative to 0, 1, and 2.

ii) What you yet more bizarrely call "objectively false" actually contains statements that are *not objective* including subjective statements e.g., "Betty is foxier than Wilma"

Subjective ideas contain information that is soley resting on individual experience or expression, i.e. relating information to a unique experience held in the mind of a person.

iii) What you most bizarrely of all call "objectively mysterious" actually contains objective statements whose truth value is not yet know (but that still have a truth value) e.g., "tomorrow bubblefish will explode", and other unusual potentially unresolvable (paradoxical, metalinguistic) statements such as "this sentence is false"

Mysterious ideas are percieved and experienced as 'both true and fasle at once', meaning, when we percieve them, we cannot discern their truth or falsity for any certain value.

These are not "truth value" they are perhaps "levels of confirmability" or "levels of reference".

Is that reasonably close?

well, it's as close as saying 'the earth circles the sun' when describing the elliptical orbit in newtonian physics. see jimbob's arguments.

OS 012 distinguishes three limits to truth values in our perception of reality, i.e we percieve reality through our ideas. This is a logical assignment, not a hueristic. It is actual, mathematical, and reasonable.

Secondly the words "true" and "false" seem to mean something different to you than to everyone else.


true and false mean different things to EVERYBODY, that's the problem, we all have very private and relative understandings of those words.

To the best of my knowledge pretty much everyone uses them to refer to statements and uses them, basically, to mean "correct" and "incorrect".

exactly, and that is the cause of most confusion in discussion and conflict

"flimflam is a man" is true, "flimflam is a woman" is false.

says YOU! I want proof, send me a nudey;-)

You appear to tack them onto an adjective and use them to mean "having the property of" and "not having the property of". So "objectively true" for you actually seems to mean "objective" and "objectively false" seems to mean "not objective".

Your muddling things in your mind again.

Edit: here's a lovely example "Objectivly false statements are not objective statements, they are false objective statements"

If i say "The earth is ruled by repetians", is that not objectivly FALSE? Yet, would you honestly say that is an 'objective' statement?

Objective is a truth value, it relates to TRUTH. It only relates to false and mystery when the objective truth is that a statement is either FALSE or MYSTERIOUS.

You're confusing form with content.

I'd join my voice to Arkan's in beseeching to use language that is (i) standard, (ii) consistent and, (iii) within your linguistic capacity.

My usages of objective, subjective, and unknown are entirely consistant with logic and the dictionary. Your confused because I am applying, rigourously and conservativly, those values to higher order truths of meta reality, and you're muddling them in your mind when i do that.


BF
 
Sorry, I should have emphasized, evolutionairy 'game' theory. I think in biology it's called 'reciprocal altruism'
Reciprocal altruism is an idea in evolutionary psychology and it is the concept of "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" and deals with how chooses to act in an interaction, not of "tit for tat" which deals with how you respond to an interaction. see http://human-nature.com/articles/shermer.html for a synopsis.
 
Jonny5,

Are you honestly saying that when you originally said 'the intersection between James Randi and Mystery is deception' some 10, 15 pages ago to the question someone raised regarding what the third value has to do with Randi was a joke?

For some reason, I find that hard to accept, please clarify the humor for us non mathematicians.

Respectfully,
BF
 
Reciprocal altruism is an idea in evolutionary psychology and it is the concept of "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" and deals with how chooses to act in an interaction, not of "tit for tat" which deals with how you respond to an interaction. see http://human-nature.com/articles/shermer.html for a synopsis.

dude, get your facts straight, and stop swinging blindly trying to make ol bubblefish wrong so you can always be 'right' in your mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism

In evolutionary biology, reciprocal altruism is a form of altruism in which one organism provides a benefit to another in the expectation of future reciprocation. This is similar to the tit for tat strategy in game theory. It would only be expected to evolve in the presence of a mechanism to identify and punish "cheaters". A potential example of reciprocal altruism is blood-sharing in the vampire bat, in which bats feed regurgitated blood to those who have not collected much blood themselves knowing that they themselves may someday benefit from this same donation; cheaters are remembered by the colony and ousted from this collaboration.
 
Sorry, I should have emphasized, evolutionairy 'game' theory. I think in biology it's called 'reciprocal altruism'
"And with one bound he was free"
So we managed to go from 'Game Theory and Evolutionairy theory' to 'Evolutionary game theory' and on to thinking it maybe would have been better to have emphasized 'game' in one easy move. Brilliant.
I bet you look good on the dancefloor:jaw-dropp
 
dude, get your facts straight, and stop swinging blindly trying to make ol bubblefish wrong so you can always be 'right' in your mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism

Did you even read the article I linked?
Morality most likely evolved in these tiny bands of 100-200 people as a form of reciprocal altruism, or I’ll scratch your back if you’ll scratch mine. But as Lincoln noted, men are not angels. There are cheaters. Individuals defect from informal contracts. Reciprocal altruism, in the long run, only works when you know who will cooperate and who will defect. In these small groups cooperation is regulated through a complex feedback loop of communication between members of the community. (This also helps to explain why people in big cities can get away with being rude, inconsiderate, and uncooperative—they are anonymous and thus not subject to the normal checks and balances that come with knowing people and seeing them every day.) In order to play the game of reciprocation you need to know whose back needs scratching and who you will trust to scratch yours. This information is gathered through telling stories abou other people, better known as gossip. According to anthropologist Jerome Barkow (1992, 627-628):

Tit for Tat, as you have been using it, has been a childlike "he did it first" application. That your referenced Wiki article states that they are "similar" does not mean they are equivalent.
 
Back to STEORN

There are milennia of observations that demonstrate the laws of thermodynamics

These include:
(people die, things get degraded as they get older)

The laws have been explicitly known for more than 150 years.

The basic laws can be simply stated

as you can't get energy for nothing, at best you could only break even, if you could avoid waste, which is inevitable. (sorry for the gross simplification there)

BF, If you combine this with the presentation of STEORN's "product":

STEORN, are claiming to somehow be the first exception ever to these laws, but haven't shown anyone how their system "works". They also targeted atheir audience at a group of people who are less likely to be scientifically literate, rathern than showing their (paradigm-shifting) technology to engineers and scientists. Nobel prizes wouldn't even come close if it were true; it would be far more significant than the theories of gravity and evolution.

Look where the money is.

Will Randi make money either way from STEORN's claims? No.

Could STEORN make money from "investors"? Yes.

Do they make extrordinary claims without evidence? Yes.

Does it fit the pattern of other scams? Yes.

Is it a scam? Maybe they are deluded, but I doubt that.

Does the technology work as advertised? TANSTAAFFL
Edit: The extra "F" was originally a mistake, but hey, guess what it can be...
 
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Jonny5,

Are you honestly saying that when you originally said 'the intersection between James Randi and Mystery is deception' some 10, 15 pages ago to the question someone raised regarding what the third value has to do with Randi was a joke?

For some reason, I find that hard to accept, please clarify the humor for us non mathematicians.

Certainly.

It's a joke based on set theory. In set theory, the concept of an "intersection" refers to the elements that two sets (collections of things - they don't have to be numbers, but usually are) have in common. I was joking about how you kept saying that Randi was being deceptive, using your "mystery" concept as an element of the joke.

I specifically wrote "{James Randi}" and "{Mystery}" back then, indicating I had two sets with the values "James Randi" and "Mystery" in them, respectively. Similarly, I said the result of the intersection of the two sets (symbolized by
latex.php
) was "{Deception}" - a set containing the word "Deception".

But what I said, if you know anything about set theory, is nonsense. Basically what I said was equivalent to saying that in a group containing the number "4" and a group containing the number "9", the common element they share is the number "5", which simply isn't true.

Similarly, the set containing only the word "James Randi" shares nothing with a set containing only the word "Mystery", so the intersection can't be "Deception" or anything else.

I suppose you could argue that I really meant to have the actual person James Randi as the element of my first set, and the concept of "Mystery" as the element of my second set, but I didn't. Also, that would still be totally meaningless, as you can't take an intersection with an abstract concept.

Hopefully my long-winded explanation has helped. You may commence with the guffaws now.

ETA: I also inadvertantly opened a whole new can of worms when I formulated it in LaTeX, as I used itallics and bolding to make it look more "funny". In doing so, I indicated "Mystery" was probably a variable and "Deception" might be a set. If anyone wants to over-analyze this further, please don't.
 
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"And with one bound he was free"
So we managed to go from 'Game Theory and Evolutionairy theory' to 'Evolutionary game theory'

from what i understand, in game theory, it's often referred to as 'evolutionary theory'. I clarified my position and it's consisant.

problem?

and on to thinking it maybe would have been better to have emphasized 'game' in one easy move.

Yes, I should have clarified that earlier, clearly there is a distinction between evolutionairy game theory and the theory of evolution.


Did you honestly think I was referring to Darwin?

Did you think that just 'coincidentaly' I was correct and 'accidently' found the co-relation just today?

Try losing this 'idea' of me in your head, it's holding you back from critical thinking.



I bet you look good on the dancefloor:jaw-dropp

you got that one right! I can tango like you woulnt believe, and got a great tush to boot.
 
Certainly.

It's a joke based on set theory. In set theory, the concept of an "intersection" refers to the elements that two sets (collections of things - they don't have to be numbers, but usually are) have in common. I was joking about how you kept saying that Randi was being deceptive, using your "mystery" concept as an element of the joke.

I specifically wrote "{James Randi}" and "{Mystery}" back then, indicating I had two sets with the values "James Randi" and "Mystery" in them, respectively. Similarly, I said the result of the intersection of the two sets (symbolized by [qimg]http://www.randi.org/latexrender/latex.php?$$\cap$$[/qimg]) was "{Deception}" - a set containing the word "Deception".

But what I said, if you know anything about set theory, is nonsense. Basically what I said was equivalent to saying that in a group containing the number "4" and a group containing the number "9", the common element they share is the number "5", which simply isn't true.

Similarly, the set containing only the word "James Randi" shares nothing with a set containing only the word "Mystery", so the intersection can't be "Deception" or anything else.

I suppose you could argue that I really meant to have the actual person James Randi as the element of my first set, and the concept of "Mystery" as the element of my second set, but I didn't. Also, that would still be totally meaningless, as you can't take an intersection with an abstract concept.

Hopefully my long-winded explanation has helped. You may commence with the guffaws now.

ETA: I also inadvertantly opened a whole new can of worms when I formulated it in LaTeX, as I used itallics and bolding to make it look more "funny". In doing so, I indicated "Mystery" was probably a variable and "Deception" might be a set. If anyone wants to over-analyze this further, please don't.

well since I dont understand set theory, i didnt see the joke, I assumed you summarized the argument using something your familiar with and were being helpful, as you often are.

In commonly used language, that phrase makes sense to my meaning, even though it holds no critical value in set theory.

I dont need to depend upon set theory to explain my arguments, they are not founded in set theory.


BF
 
Jonny5,

Are you honestly saying that when you originally said 'the intersection between James Randi and Mystery is deception' some 10, 15 pages ago to the question someone raised regarding what the third value has to do with Randi was a joke?

For some reason, I find that hard to accept, please clarify the humor for us non mathematicians.

Well I think I found it as funny as one could expect. I am not a mathematician, I am just remembering the little set notation I did at the age of (ten?).


It was *extremely* obvious that the OP wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

Certainly.

It's a joke based on set theory. In set theory, the concept of an "intersection" refers to the elements that two sets (collections of things - they don't have to be numbers, but usually are) have in common. I was joking about how you kept saying that Randi was being deceptive, using your "mystery" concept as an element of the joke.

I specifically wrote "{James Randi}" and "{Mystery}" back then, indicating I had two sets with the values "James Randi" and "Mystery" in them, respectively. Similarly, I said the result of the intersection of the two sets (symbolized by [qimg]http://www.randi.org/latexrender/latex.php?$$\cap$$[/qimg]) was "{Deception}" - a set containing the word "Deception".

But what I said, if you know anything about set theory, is nonsense. Basically what I said was equivalent to saying that in a group containing the number "4" and a group containing the number "9", the common element they share is the number "5", which simply isn't true.

Similarly, the set containing only the word "James Randi" shares nothing with a set containing only the word "Mystery", so the intersection can't be "Deception" or anything else.

I suppose you could argue that I really meant to have the actual person James Randi as the element of my first set, and the concept of "Mystery" as the element of my second set, but I didn't. Also, that would still be totally meaningless, as you can't take an intersection with an abstract concept.

Hopefully my long-winded explanation has helped. You may commence with the guffaws now.

ETA: I also inadvertantly opened a whole new can of worms when I formulated it in LaTeX, as I used itallics and bolding to make it look more "funny". In doing so, I indicated "Mystery" was probably a variable and "Deception" might be a set. If anyone wants to over-analyze this further, please don't.



Am I imagining it but didn't you originally post the "Union" not intersection notation?
 
from what i understand, in game theory, it's often referred to as 'evolutionary theory'. I clarified my position and it's consisant.

problem?



Yes, I should have clarified that earlier, clearly there is a distinction between evolutionairy game theory and the theory of evolution.


Did you think that just 'coincidentaly' I was correct and 'accidently' found the co-relation just today?
problem? Well, yeah. Your position isn't consisant, or even consistent. You first present Game and Evolutionary as two separate theories. Then it becomes evolutionary 'game' theory, then it's 'referred to in' yada, yada, yada. Inconsisant.


Coincidentally, if you google the words 'evolutionary' 'tit' 'for' tat', imagine the surprise on finding the wiki you produce at number 9 on the first page.
Spooooooky!!
 
How is "tit for tat" used in evolutionary theory?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/game-evolutionary/

I'm not a scholar on game theory, so you need to do a little research yourself if you want to get clear on the matter.
That link is about evolutionary game theory, but doesn't talk about "tit for tat". It's about how populations with different behaviours interact, not about individuals changing their behaviour in response to the behaviour of others.
You can also try reading 'The Selfish Gene', as Dawkins does a really enlightening job on the matter.
After the "Aristotle murdered the philosopher who tried to introduce zero into math" debacle, I'm not particularly inclined to trust your interpretation of what others have written, or to go on wild goose chases unless you give page references and some illustrative quotations. Do that and I'll look out my copy of The Selfish Gene.
 
Am I imagining it but didn't you originally post the "Union" not intersection notation?

Actually, when I originally posted it I just wrote "the intersection of" or something as I didn't know the LaTeX code to do anything.

I also made the dumb joke about "union" but never finished it. I won't either, it's really not funny. :)
 
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well since I dont understand set theory, i didnt see the joke, I assumed you summarized the argument using something your familiar with and were being helpful, as you often are.

In commonly used language, that phrase makes sense to my meaning, even though it holds no critical value in set theory.

I dont need to depend upon set theory to explain my arguments, they are not founded in set theory.

Nah, it didn't really have anything to do with anything when I posted it. Apologies for the confusion.
 
Jonny,

yes, I have been doing this for four years now. When it first started, however, I tried to encourage others to use the 'bubblefish' moniker and spread it around a bit, so one or two finds may not be me.

I have tried to keep the communities distinct, as each community reflect a certain set of behaviors or beliefs. One of my favorites was the 'George Carlin' discussion community. It consisted of 18-23 year olds tellng fart jokes and beer stories, they could'nt care less about this stuff. Had them going for, oh, 30 or 40 pages too. That one was REAL funny as well. They helped me understand tit for tat humor real well.
 
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yes, I have been doing this for four years now. When it first started, however, I tried to encourage others to use the 'bubblefish' moniker and spread it around a bit, so one or two finds may not be me.

I have tried to keep the communities distinct, as each community reflect a certain set of behaviors or beliefs. One of my favorite was the 'George Carlin' discussion community. It consisted of 18-23 year olds tellng fart jokes and beer stories, they could'nt care less about this stuff. Had them going for, oh, 30 or 40 pages too. That one was REAL funny as well. They helped me understand tit for tat humor real well.

Indeed you have. I'm concerned that your method for promoting this system is hardly scholarly research, as it more resembles a "Google bomb" or spam campaign (in fact, I notice one of those sites removed your content as spam).

I read the Wiki deletion vote, and you seem to have had a profound misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is about.

I can't really say you're spamming, as you've stuck around to talk about this theory of yours, but it seems like you're just spending a lot of time promoting this on the internet as some kind of "viral meme" rather than trying to work out something more formal to describe it.
 
That link is about evolutionary game theory, but doesn't talk about "tit for tat".


Mojo, you're back to utterly boring me with mundane arguments and your consistant failure to properly discern meaning from your inner world.

The exact quote relating reciprocal altruism to tit for tat on the wiki page is: "This is similar to the tit for tat strategy in game theory".

After the "Aristotle murdered the philosopher who tried to introduce zero into math" debacle, I'm not particularly inclined to trust your interpretation of what others have written, or to go on wild goose chases unless you give page references and some illustrative quotations. Do that and I'll look out my copy of The Selfish Gene.

I don't expect anyone to take my word on face value, I expect people to take my word based on rational dialogue and reasonable arguments. I would rather you discredit my word on face value and prove your contradictions in honest exchange.

I employ a strategy for online dialogue which is very remarkably similar to tit for tat in game theory. Tit for tat in game theory is SIMILAR to 'reciprocal altruism' in biology. Game Theory is not biology, and biology is not game theory, rather, they intersect with a natural behavorial strategy found in mammalian nature called TIT FOR TAT or 'Evolutionairy Game Theory' in Game Theory and RECIPROCAL ALTRUISM in Biology.

Please don't believe that on face value. Please research it. Carefully. Then come back for some more tit for tat, eh?



BF
 
Indeed you have. I'm concerned that your method for promoting this system is hardly scholarly research, as it more resembles a "Google bomb" or spam campaign (in fact, I notice one of those sites removed your content as spam).


Well, I agree it's certainly not scholarly in the academic sense! It was just the honest and best way that I knew to evolve, apply, and test it using the scientific method as best understood by a layman. It was just an art project to start off with. I'm not a scholar, I'm an artist.

I read the Wiki deletion vote, and you seem to have had a profound misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is about.

well I certainly did then, yes, but don't now. I argued for it being on wiki because I constantly get hits from google on queries regarding OS 012. I thought it would be best to have an objective wiki page on it. I was wrong, OS 012 is not significant yet to hold a wiki page.

I objected also because there was one hearing on wikipedia for OS 012, and it won it's entry fair and square by vote. A computer scientist stated he found the article informative and interesting, and other votes soon followed supporting it. After it won, then two weeks later it was put on trial again, and lost.

I no longer contest that, and have since become a wiki editor myself, and have since developed the framework to assist the the AfD process at wikipedia.

I can't really say you're spamming, as you've stuck around to talk about this theory of yours, but it seems like you're just spending a lot of time promoting this on the internet as some kind of "viral meme" rather than trying to work out something more formal to describe it.

Well, it may appear that way, but that's not the way it is. I wasnt looking for this project, it sort of came to me, and when it started online, it started before I was even aware of what was starting. It was already 'out there' and getting viral before it was ready to be presented properly. It began as a continual and online 'work' in progress. I tried to present it puzzlng and creativly at first to attract further rational arguments.

The first three months of OS 012 I assumed someone really smart would step in and formalize the whole thing for me, I didn't think I was up to the task, and still dont think so, so now I have a few members of distinguished academia apart of the team. It took 3 long, painful, lonley years of developing this to really be able to present my arguments more critically and acceptably to academic minded people, which previously I had absolutly 0 experience with.
 

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