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I'm not "inferring" you are dishonest. I am saying you are dishonest. You are dishonest because you're (collective "you're") attempting to paint Jefferson with a Christian brush for ideological purposes.



A lovely bunch of opinions for which there is no evidence to speak of.

The fact remains that when it comes to Jefferson's "Christianity," it comes down to you're (again, collective "you're") wishful thinking versus just about everything Jefferson said and wrote during his life.

So, if you have an opinion, and you state it is an opinion, than you are being dishonest. That's an interesting opinion but if you gave some facts that refuted anything I've said it would be much more powerful.

And are you saying Jefferson was not in France during the turmoil of the French Revolution period, and his wife and 2 year old daughter did not die while he was there (by the way I just listened to the tape again and his mother and best friend also died while he was there). And are you also saying he did indeed have his own preacher and a spirit filled church available to him and he was not depressed during this time.

If "we're" trying to paint Jefferson with a brush for ideolical purposes than the liberal left has dunked him a vat for their purposes.
 
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Kennedy's source is?

Oh yeah, Kennedy has no credentials in history.

Email his website and ask them. He made the statement on a nationally syndicated TV show. All I know is all the stuff I've checked out about the tape of it checks out. But your invited to do your own research and let us know of any discrepancies.
 
The following might be a shock to some but here is what else Dr. James Kennedy said on his nationally televised show a few years back about what Jefferson did during his presidency.

1. Legislative chaplains

2. Military chaplains

3. Establishing a national seal using a biblical symbol.

4 Including the word God in our national motto.

5. Official days of fasting and prayer at least on the state level.

6. Punishing Sabbath breakers.

7. Punishing marriages contrary to biblical laws.

8. Punishing irreverant soldiers.

9. Protecting the property of churches.

10. Requiring oath saying "So help me God" taken on the Bible.

11. Granting land to Christian churches to reach the Indians.

12. Granting land to Christian schools.

13. Allowing government property and facilities to be used for worship.

14. Using the Bible and non-denominational religion instruction in the public schools.

15, He was involved in 3 different school districts and the plan in each one of these "required" that the Bible be taught in public schools.
 
The following might be a shock to some but here is what else Dr. James Kennedy said on his nationally televised show a few years back about what Jefferson did during his presidency.

Wow, on national television? Wow. Then it must be the ultimate Truthtm. Nobody shall doubt what is said on the telly!! At least not if it's said on many, many tellies! :rolleyes:
 
3. Establishing a national seal using a biblical symbol.


Which element of the national seal are you referring to? I ask because I found a website that claims that every element of the U.S. national seal is biblical in origin.
 
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The following might be a shock to some but here is what else Dr. James Kennedy said on his nationally televised show a few years back about what Jefferson did during his presidency.

1. Legislative Chaplains

The first chaplain of the House of Representatives was William Linn, elected May 1, 1789, almost fifteen years before Jefferson took office as president. Linn, of coursse, was simply a continuation of the tradition of chaplains to the Continental Congress.


2 Military chaplains

The original structure of the American army, as proposed by George Washington in 1784, called for four regiments, each with their own chaplain. The actual appointment of a chaplain dates to March 4, 1791, when "the Reverend John Hurt of Virginia, an Episcopalian, was appointed chaplain of the Army's only brigade." Again, This is well before Jefferson's presidency.


[...]

4. Including the word God in our national motto.

This is simply incorrect.

The original motto of the United States (and arguably the only "national motto") contains no mention of God at all. The motto is E Pluribus Unum, Latin for "Out of many, one."

The motto to which you probabably refer, "In God We Trust," was first proposed for currency and coins in the middle of the Civil War and approved on April 22, 1864. At that point, Jefferson had been out of office for fifty years, and dead for almost forty.

Given this demonstrated level of factual inaccuracy, I think we can dismiss the rest of "Dr" Kennedy's uninformed ravings without further consideration.
 
Which element of the national seal are you referring to? I ask because I found a website that claims that every element of the U.S. national seal is biblical in origin.

Did it also mention that the Great Seal of the United States was approved in 1782?


That would have been quite an accomplishment for President Jefferson....
 
All I know is all the stuff I've checked out about the tape of it checks out. But your invited to do your own research and let us know of any discrepancies.

I found four discrepancies already..... How many more do you want?
 
The original motto of the United States (and arguably the only "national motto") contains no mention of God at all. The motto is E Pluribus Unum, Latin for "Out of many, one."

The motto to which you probabably refer, "In God We Trust," was first proposed for currency and coins in the middle of the Civil War and approved on April 22, 1864. At that point, Jefferson had been out of office for fifty years, and dead for almost forty.

G

We will have to wait for DOC to elaborate, but it is possible that he and Kennedy are referring to "Annuit Coeptis" commonly translated as "He has favored our undertakings." That being said, I hardly consider adding those words amounts to evidence that Christianity was pervasive among our founding fathers.
 
We will have to wait for DOC to elaborate, but it is possible that he and Kennedy are referring to "Annuit Coeptis" commonly translated as "He has favored our undertakings." That being said, I hardly consider adding those words amounts to evidence that Christianity was pervasive among our founding fathers.

And he still has to deal with the discrepancy in dates. As part of the design of the Great Seal, "Annuit Coeptis" was approved in 1782, a decision of which Jefferson was not a part (he wasn't serving at that time).
 
Why, even Wiki says Jefferson attended church services weekly in the House of Representatives.

Reliability of Wikipedia aside, that is some dishonest cherry picking on your part. The article is very clear, and does not support your contention:

On matters of religion, Jefferson in 1800 was accused by his political opponents of being an atheist and enemy of religion. But Jefferson wrote at length on religion and many scholars agree with the claim that Jefferson was a deist, a common position held by intellectuals in the late 18th century. As Avery Cardinal Dulles, a leading Roman Catholic theologian reports, "In his college years at William and Mary he [Jefferson] came to admire Francis Bacon, Isaac Newton, and John Locke as three great paragons of wisdom. Under the influence of several professors he converted to the deist philosophy."[22] Dulles concludes:
“ In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher. He was not an orthodox Christian because he rejected, among other things, the doctrines that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the incarnate Son of God. Jefferson's religion is fairly typical of the American form of deism in his day. ”

Biographer Merrill Peterson summarizes Jefferson's theology:
“ First, that the Christianity of the churches was unreasonable, therefore unbelievable, but that stripped of priestly mystery, ritual, and dogma, reinterpreted in the light of historical evidence and human experience, and substituting the Newtonian cosmology for the discredited Biblical one, Christianity could be conformed to reason. Second, morality required no divine sanction or inspiration, no appeal beyond reason and nature, perhaps not even the hope of heaven or the fear of hell; and so the whole edifice of Christian revelation came tumbling to the ground.[23] ”

Jefferson used deist terminology in repeatedly stating his belief in a creator, and in the United States Declaration of Independence used the terms "Creator", "Nature's God". Jefferson believed, furthermore, it was this Creator that endowed humanity with a number of inalienable rights, such as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". His experience in France just before the French Revolution made him deeply suspicious of Catholic priests and bishops as a force for reaction and ignorance. Similarly, his experience in America with inter-denominational intolerance served to reinforce this skeptical view of religion. In a letter to Willam Short, Jefferson wrote: "the serious enemies are the priests of the different religious sects, to whose spells on the human mind its improvement is ominous."[24]

Jefferson was raised in the Church of England, at a time when it was the established church in Virginia and only denomination funded by Virginia tax money. Before the Revolution, Jefferson was a vestryman in his local church, a lay position that was part of political office at the time. He also had friends who were clergy, and he supported some churches financially. During his Presidency, Jefferson attended the weekly church services held in the House of Representatives. Jefferson later expressed general agreement with his friend Joseph Priestley's Unitarianism, that is the rejection of the doctrine of Trinity. In a letter to a pioneer in Ohio he wrote, "I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its conscience to neither kings or priests, the genuine doctrine of only one God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian."[25]

Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, but he had high esteem for Jesus' moral teachings, which he viewed as the "principles of a pure deism, and juster notions of the attributes of God, to reform [prior Jewish] moral doctrines to the standard of reason, justice & philanthropy, and to inculcate the belief of a future state."[26] Jefferson did not believe in miracles. He made his own condensed version of the Gospels, omitting Jesus' virgin birth, miracles, divinity, and resurrection, primarily leaving only Jesus' moral philosophy, of which he approved. This compilation was published after his death and became known as the Jefferson Bible.
“ [The Jefferson Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw.[27] ”

In spite of evidence pointing to a life of deism or progressive Christianity, however, it has been suggested by polemicist Christopher Hitchens that at the end of his days, Jefferson's leanings may have been closer to that of an atheist. Hitchens cites several of Jefferson's letters to friends as he approached his death, stating that he awaited his end without "either hope or fear". Hitchens also notes an earlier correspondence with nephew Peter Carr, cautioning against shying away from confronting the possible absence of a god due to "any fear of its consequences."[28] Though an individual's inner feelings can never truly be known, these correspondences could indicate a gulf between his public and private religious leanings.

source.

In fact it goes on:

From 1784 to 1786, Jefferson and James Madison worked together to oppose Patrick Henry's attempts to again assess taxes in Virginia to support churches. Instead, in 1786, the Virginia General Assembly passed Jefferson's Bill for Religious Freedom, which he had first submitted in 1779 and was one of only three accomplishments he put in his own epitaph. The law read:
“ No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.[29] ”

One of Jefferson’s least well known writings is: "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make half the world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world"- Thomas Jefferson, in his Notes on Virginia. [9]

Jefferson sought what he called a "wall of separation between Church and State", which he believed was a principle expressed by the First Amendment. This phrase has been cited several times by the Supreme Court in its interpretation of the Establishment Clause.[30] In an 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, he wrote:
“ Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State.[31] ”

During his Presidency, Jefferson refused to issue proclamations calling for days of prayer and thanksgiving. Moreover, his private letters indicate he was skeptical of too much interference by clergy in matters of civil government. His letters contain the following observations: "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government",[32] and, "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."[33] "May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all), the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government".[34]
 
So, if you have an opinion, and you state it is an opinion, than you are being dishonest.

No. If you try to re-write history for ideological purposes, you are being dishonest.

That's an interesting opinion but if you gave some facts that refuted anything I've said it would be much more powerful.
This thread is filled with facts that I, among many others, have provided to refute your claims.

And are you saying
If you have to begin a statement with "are you saying," then chances are A) the answer is "no" and B) you're about to deliver us a big honkin' strawman.

Jefferson was not in France during the turmoil of the French Revolution period, and his wife and 2 year old daughter did not die while he was there (by the way I just listened to the tape again and his mother and best friend also died while he was there).
Ah, both A) and B) fulfilled.

In the offhand chance you're interested in history, rather than Kennedy's "interpretation" of it, allow me to fill in some gaps.

Jefferson traveled to France in 1784, and took up the mantle as minister to France from 1785-1789. He left for the US on September 26, 1789, where he then became Secretary of State. His wife, Martha, passed away in 1782--three years before he went to France.

Jefferson's mother, Jane Rudolf, died in 1776--nine years before he left for France.

As was common in the day, Jefferson had a number of children who died very young; Jane Randolph (1774-75), an unnamed stillborn son in 1777, Lucy Elizabeth (1780-1781), and another Lucy Elizabeth that died in 1785, not long after Jefferson arrived in France in 1784. The French Revolution broke out in 1789--right as Jefferson was coming home.

So let's breakdown the historical claims:

1. That Jefferson was in France during the Revolution--partially. He saw about two months of it; the Bastille was stormed on July 14, 1789, and Jefferson left for home on September 26. He was actually very energized by the French Revolution, and saw it as the beginning of a worldwide rebellion against tyranny. If anything, the Revolution rekindled his optimism.
2. His infant daughter died while he was there--true, but by that time he had also lost three other children (in addition to two living daughters, Mary and Martha). This was fairly common for the time, and there's really no reason to think this was particularly traumatic for him. I can't even find information about whether Lucy Elizabeth even came with him to France.
3. His wife died while he was there--100% false.
4. His mother died while he was there--100% false.
5. His best friend died while he was there--uncertain. Jefferson had many friends--who exactly are you referring to? George Wythe died in 1806. James Madison didn't die until 1836.

So at best, you (and Kennedy) are batting .500 in the "historical accuracy" department, and I'm being generous. And that's just from the standpoint of basic facts--to say nothing of your misinterpretation of Jefferson's views and philosophy.

If "we're" trying to paint Jefferson with a brush for ideolical purposes than the liberal left has dunked him a vat for their purposes.
Oh, I'd love to see some substantiation of this claim.
 
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Reliability of Wikipedia aside, that is some dishonest cherry picking on your part. The article is very clear, and does not support your contention:



source.

In fact it goes on:

Wow, this is great fowlsound...I am at a loss as to which Jefferson quote I will add to my sig.
 
Wow, this is great fowlsound...I am at a loss as to which Jefferson quote I will add to my sig.

Thanks SG :) I fear, however, that it is lost on DOC as he ignored every quote of Jefferson's I have given since post 2 of this thread.
 
The first chaplain of the House of Representatives was William Linn, elected May 1, 1789, almost fifteen years before Jefferson took office as president. Linn, of coursse, was simply a continuation of the tradition of chaplains to the Continental Congress.




The original structure of the American army, as proposed by George Washington in 1784, called for four regiments, each with their own chaplain. The actual appointment of a chaplain dates to March 4, 1791, when "the Reverend John Hurt of Virginia, an Episcopalian, was appointed chaplain of the Army's only brigade." Again, This is well before Jefferson's presidency.




This is simply incorrect.

The original motto of the United States (and arguably the only "national motto") contains no mention of God at all. The motto is E Pluribus Unum, Latin for "Out of many, one."

The motto to which you probabably refer, "In God We Trust," was first proposed for currency and coins in the middle of the Civil War and approved on April 22, 1864. At that point, Jefferson had been out of office for fifty years, and dead for almost forty.

Given this demonstrated level of factual inaccuracy, I think we can dismiss the rest of "Dr" Kennedy's uninformed ravings without further consideration.

Well Kennedy also said Washington read the bible with prayer an hour in the morning and an hour at night so I'm not surprised if Washington laid some of the groundwork. Let's see than we have John Adams. I haven't read much about him but I know his son John Quincy was pretty sold out to Christianity and I'll bring in a speech of his when I get the chance. If you want to dismiss Kennedy that's your right. I'm glad your all doing research, let the truth come out about the religiosity of the founders and lets let the chips fall where they may. Than you have Lincoln -- read his second inaugural address sometime and you'll see what he believes about seperation of church and state.
 
Dear DOC:

Please review the following statements as your homework assignment:

1) You have cited no source other than Kennedy on this topic with the exception of a Wikipedia article that I have shown does not support your contentions. It is patently obvious to us all that you enjoy your history spoon-fed to you and do not bother to question whether it is accurate or not. You lost everyone last post after the words "Well Kennedy said..."

2) Please note that the following words are not interchangeable: Than and then, your and you're. Also note that using the plural of a word is not always necessary, such as your use "lets the chips fall where they may." Please proofread your posts, or risk being written off as uneducated and uninformed.

3) Seeing that you have yet to acknowledge many of the factual errors Kennedy has made in this speech that you are listening to, and now state "well let us all look at them and let the chips fall where they may" I can only assume that is a statement conceding you have nothing to refute what many of us have countered your posts with. I therefore declare you having lost this attempt to paint Jefferson in the manner to which you posted.

4) Perhaps, if you actually want to learn something, you could try having more than one source for your American history, preferably one that isn't trying to skew the views of the founding fathers to fit a religious political agenda.


That is all.


ETA:

I find your painting of Jefferson's stay in France to show some despairing crisis in which he was comforted by Christianity to be insulting to Jefferson, and particularly disgusting. Read Cleon's post as to the factual inaccuracies, and reflect upon how insulting it is to use factual inaccuracies to read mental state into someone's actions or words, especially when the wealth of information about that person does not agree with your contentions.
 
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Well Kennedy also said Washington read the bible with prayer an hour in the morning and an hour at night so I'm not surprised if Washington laid some of the groundwork.

At this point, a rational human being would stop relying on Kennedy as a source of historical information. There is actually very little known about Washington's private religious views; unlike Jefferson, Madison, and others, he was very private about such things.

There is certainly no evidence for the claim above.

Let's see than we have John Adams. I haven't read much about him
Translation: Kennedy didn't talk about him. Your sole knowledge of history seems to come from this talk, which as we've already shown has all the accuracy of a Sylvia Browne reading.

In fact, at long last you finally hit one. Adams was very much a professed, Bible-believing Christian. Of the framers, he was almost certainly the most devout in his faith.

I'm glad your all doing research, let the truth come out about the religiosity of the founders and lets let the chips fall where they may.
Yes, it's a shame you're not listening to any of it. You seem to prefer Kennedy's "interpretation," rather than historical facts.

Than you have Lincoln -- read his second inaugural address sometime and you'll see what he believes about seperation of church and state.
Just did. Lincoln uses a lot of religious imagery and alliteration regarding the war, but doesn't actually say anything about the role religion should play in government or vice versa.

It's interesting to note that while Lincoln was raised fundamentalist Baptist and was very familiar with the Bible, he never joined a church or identified with a particular denomination. Some biographers seem to think Lincoln was something of a Deist himself, actually, rejecting orthodox Christianity's views on original sin, the infallibility of the Bible, and so forth. (I do find it interesting that in a Congressional campaign against an evangelical, Lincoln was accused of being an "infidel.")
 
Well Kennedy also said Washington read the bible with prayer an hour in the morning and an hour at night so I'm not surprised if Washington laid some of the groundwork.

I'm sure Kennedy did. Once you've started telling lies, why not tell a lot of them?

Do you have any sources for any of your assertions that do not rest upon the testimony of a proven liar?
 
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