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#1881 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
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Lashl, seeing as he will be too lazy to check back within the thread to questions he has ignored and left unanswered, may i suggest that you post these questions again, as a list and repeat that list until each question is answered?
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Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato. “Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.” “Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.” |
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#1882 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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#1883 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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The evidence for the '10 story gouge':
NIST Report Appendix L pg 18 "middle 1/4 to 1/3 width of the south face was gouged out from floor 10 to the ground" Evidence that the '10 story gouge' was a misinterpretation of the actual damage pg 18 "No heavy debris was observed in the lobby area as the building was exited, primairly white dust coating and black wires hanging from ceiling areas were observed." [a gouge floor 10 to the ground would have left a pile of heavy debris in the lobby 40 to 60 feet wide from the south facade to the elevators] "... the atrium glass was still intact" FEMA Report pg 20 "According to the account of a firefighter who walked the 9th floor along the south side following the collapse of WCT 1, the only damage to the 9th floor facade occurred at the south west corner." Oral Histories: Chief Frank Fellini [in charge of operations at West and Vesey] When it fell [WTC 1] it ripped steel out from between the third and the sixth floors....." NIST ignored the two statements on the same page that were in conflict with the '10 story gouge 1/4 to 1/3 the width of the south face' and the statement in the FEMA report. They then showed this 'damage' in the graphic on pg 23 as "Possible region of impact damage" and again on pages 31 & 32 as "Approximate region of impact damage" In the Summary item 3) they describe the damage attributed to this gouge [columns 69, 72 and 75] as Possible components that may have led to the failure of columns 79, 80 and/or 81. |
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#1884 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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There were no diesel fuel fires or debris damage in the area of the initiating event* that led to the global collapse of WTC 7.
*NIST Apx. L pg 30 - 33 http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/133...ngeventli5.png References: NIST Appendix L http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_.../appendixl.pdf [note: pg 18 is pg 22 on the page counter] NIST Final 4-5-05 http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%...se%20Final.pdf FEMA Chapter 5 http:/www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch5.pdf [copy and paste in URL bar] Debris damage: - Southwest corner damage extended over floors 8 to 18 [NIST Apx. L pg 18] - Damage starting at roof level....5 to 10 floors....near south west corner [NIST Apx. L pg 18] - Large debris hole near center of south face around floor 14 [NIST Apx. L pg 18] [just west of center*] - South face damage, middle 1/4 - 1/3 width south face, floor 10 to ground [NIST Final 4-5-05 pg 15] - No heavt debris in lobby area [NIST Apx. L pg 18] - Damage...of core framing is not known [NIST Apx. L pg 51] - Only damage to south wall on 9th floor at SW corner [FEMA Ch. 5 pg 20] - 8th or 9th floor....2 elevator cars ejected into hallway north of elevator shaft, visible portion of south wall was gone....possible damage extended to the west [NIST Apx. L pg 18] Explosion heard on floor 8 [http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...c7+new+footage Start at 6:20 min. [Warning: audio very loud and distorted, turn down volume before viewing] * Steve Spak photograph with location of perimeter columns added graphically. http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9...alysiscyk0.jpg Looking from the south east corner of the south face: Fire was seen on the 12th floor on the south face; the face above the fire was covered with smoke [NIST Apx. L pg 24] [the face below floor 12 was not covered with smoke] No debris damage to the east 1/3 of the south face was reported Debris would have to enter between columns 8 and 11 [Spak#] to damage core columns in the area of the initiating event. http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3...raphic3np6.jpg ************************************************** ****** Fires: There were no diesel fuel fed fires in the east half of WTC 7 where the initial event, that led to the collapse, occurred. FEMA pg 28 [bolding mine] Fuel oil was distributed through the 5th floor in a double wall pipe. A portion of the piping was in close proximity to Truss 1 However, there is no physical, photographic or other evidence to substantiate or refute the discharge of fuel oil from the piping system. The following is, therefore, a hypothesis based on potential rather than demonstrated fact. Assume that the distribution piping system was severed..... The east generator room was in the north east corner of WTC 7 on the 5th floor. The supply pipe for the east generator room was north of the wall that is on the north side of the mechanical room, 90' from the south side of the building. [FEMA pg 14 - 15] If the generators [and the pump feeding fuel oil to them] were running, the louver vents would be open. [FEMA pg 29] http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/937/e5pt8.jpg If there was a fire in this room, smoke would be pouring out thru the vents. ************************************************** ****** Fire on floor 12 Form 11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. it burned west to east across the south side From 2:00 to 3:00 p.m., the fire progresses north along east side http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7555/e40rv.jpg About 3:00 p.m., it reached the north side, east of center, and spread in both directions http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6500/n5pq6.jpg http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5236/n6oj1.jpg By 4:45 the fire on floor 12 had burned out http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/233...6474jw7rf2.jpg Video of north side after fires on floors 7, 12 and 13 had burned out http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...oid=1548030539 Other fires: 11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.: fire on floor 22 on south side About 12:15 p.m.: Fire on floor 7 at west wall, toward the south side 2:00 to 2:20 p.m.: fire on floor 11 at SE corner, progressing north Around 3:00 p.m.: fire on floor 7 near middle of north side Sometime later, fire on floors 8 and 13 Fire on floor 8 eventually burned to NE corner and moved to east face [NIST Apx. L pg 22 - 26] ************************************************** ****** The reports of fire to the east part of WTC 7 are not going to change in the final report. The reports given are clear, the times are accurate enough to track the progression of the fires. |
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#1885 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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According to NIST, the debris damage in the west half of WTC 7 was not a factor in the initiating event.
NIST Apx. L pg 36: "If the initiating event was due to damage to the perimeter moment frame, then it would have started along the south or southwest facade." "Analysis of the global structure indicates that the structure redistributed loads around the severed and damaged areas." NIST makes no mention of lateral stress in its Summary, or anywhere else for that matter. The rest of the L.3.2 Collapse Initiation Scenarios talks about fires. |
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#1886 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 24,282
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What is this nonsense about an initiating event? We have a long row of causes and effects. Where does it start? When OBL was born? When the planes hit the towers? When the debris hit WTC7? When the fire started? When the crucial support failed?
Why does it matter what somebody calls initiating? Which parts of the chain of events do you call in doubt? Hans |
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Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
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#1887 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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How convenient.
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#1888 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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#1889 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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#1890 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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#1891 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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#1892 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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Belz: Regarding your response in post #1887
You left off the last line of my statement and missed the point. The destruction of the evidence works both ways. Examination of the physical evidence would have proven conclusively what caused the collapse. If it was due to fires they would know, to a much greater degree of certainty, where it started and how it progressed from a single column failure to a global collapse. Examination of the physical evidence in the only way to know for sure what happened and why. NIST has been asked to determine the cause without the physical evidence. This is like trying to determine what caused a plane crash by talking to witnesses and reviewing documents. You seem to think that the initiating event is my creation. Please take the time to read NIST Apx. L pg 30 - 33 where they define what they call the initiating event. |
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#1893 |
Goddess of Legaltainment™
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 36,237
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To reiterate:
Originally Posted by Christopher7
Originally Posted by LashL
Originally Posted by Arus808
Originally Posted by LashL
I suggest that in order to give him all the time he needs, posters refrain from posting additional posts or responses or queries on this thread until he has taken the necessary time to address the points and posts that he has not yet "had time" to respond to. I suspect that it is the only way that he will ever respond to them instead of just repeating his "rinse, lather, repeat" mantra, and I, for one, would really like to see Christopher7 given all the time he requires to respond meaningfully to the posts and points above. P.S. Thank you, Arus, FactCheck, and Belz, and thanks in advance to others ![]() |
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#1894 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 619
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Quote:
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Now why don't you do ORIGINAL research as I have and find out who sold the steel. It wasn't the federal government. Not only did they not have anything to do with it but the mayor asked the scrap yards not to sell it. It was local greed that sold the majority of steel. Elliot Spitser was also pressuring the state to remove the steel because the town of fresh kills thought it was a health hazard. How does that fit in with your little federal conspiracy... Elliot Spitser is in on it? The state of NY? The city? Boy this conspiracy is MASSIVE! I think Chis is the only one not involved. Heh! |
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"Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!" - Groucho Marks "The A.D.L. is the scum of the earth."... "You aren't going to use that last line out of context, are you?" - Alex Jones http://www.debunking911.com Try the new POWER Debunker search engine! http://www.jod911.com |
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#1895 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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#1896 |
Goddess of Legaltainment™
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 36,237
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That is a good suggestion, Arus, but I do not wish to do his work for him, as that is exactly what tinhatters expect all of the time. They post nonsense and expect everyone else to do their work for them while they run and hide from doing any work themselves. In this case, it is a simple matter of him scrolling back and locating posts to which he has not responded - it doesn't even involve any intelligence or research on his part (good thing) - so I do not think that this is effort that he should be absolved of. He knows exactly which points and points he's avoided and ignored. (And he knows why - as does everyone else reading this thread - it is because he hasn't any legitimate responses to them.)
Moreover, even if I (or others) were to do his work for him, as usual, he will just ignore it - again, in typical tinhatter fashion - as long as others are responding to his repetitive blather and as long as he has some excuse to continue to blather without addressing the points and posts that he has deliberately avoided. I would much rather see skeptics here ignore his further posts until he responds meaningfully to the ones that he has deliberately ignored and avoided, and I would much rather see skeptics here require him to actually do more than spout off the same "rinse, lather, repeat" nonsense that he has been spouting for dozens of pages now. He is, obviously, hoping that posters here will engage him in further discussion on his "rinse, lather, repeat" points and hopes that posters will forget that he has avoided all of the points and posts that he is unable to respond to in a meaningful fashion. He needs time, he says. I say we should give him all the time he needs, and not detract from his time by posting further responses to his blather until he has had sufficient time to respond to the posts he's studiously avoided and ignored above. For reference: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1875 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1888 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1879 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1880 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1888 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1893 |
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#1897 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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There were 12 posts containing 40 points. [more or less]
You desire to ignore the and bury the facts from the FEMA and NIST reports that i have listed by asking infinitely arguable questions. I have the right to respond to relevant posts and ignore the insults, misrepresentations of what i said, questions that have already been asked and answered and the nitpick and babble tactic. You refuse to acknowledge the facts from the FEMA and NIST reports in posts #1883, 1884 and 1885 You and others fail to respond to points you cannot deal with in my posts and then insist that i respond to every point in your posts. |
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#1898 |
Goddess of Legaltainment™
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 36,237
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Wrong again, Chris. Nobody insisted that you reply to every point in every post. There's that reading comprehension problem of yours again.
Take all the time you need to respond to the points and posts that you deliberately ignored and avoided above - you know which ones I mean, the ones that are obviously relevant to the discussion but that you have chosen to pretend are not. You claimed that you just didn't have the time to respond ~ so go ahead ~ take all the time you require. Even if it is only to claim that a particular point or post is "irrelevant" in your view - that itself will be a response on your part (perhaps legitimate, perhaps not) but at least it may provide a basis for further discussion. To simply ignore and avoid obviously relevant posts and points just makes you look bad, and that is what you have been doing for several pages now. Every time you find yourself confronted with a relevant point that you either know nothing about or you are wilfully blind to, and that you completely unwilling to research for yourself, you pretend that it is "irrelevant" even though it is clearly relevant, or you simply ignore it and hope that others will engage you in the same old tired crap that you have been repeating for dozens of pages. So, instead of that, take the time you need, do the research required, and respond meaningfully instead of sticking to a "rinse, lather, repeat" mantra. Take all the time you need. I (and I am sure others) will address the rest of your post once you have addressed the relevant posts and points that you have been studiously avoiding for days. |
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#1899 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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I went over the 12 posts in question.
I have responded to the relevant questions. Here is my response to one of your statements. If you think there is another statement or relevant question that deserves a response, please say what it is. I did not make that determination, NIST did. |
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#1900 |
Goddess of Legaltainment™
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 36,237
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Like I said:
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We will be here when you have taken the time to do the necessary research, and when you have taken the time to educate yourself, and when you have taken the time to respond meaningfully to the posts and points that you have ignored and avoided above. Until then, I see no reason to respond to your repetitive posts in which you simply reiterate that which you have said dozens of times before, and which have been addressed dozens of times already in this thread. Start responding meaningfully to other posters instead of just repeating yourself ad nauseam and instead of ignoring legitimate comments and queries. After all, you're interested in the truth, right? You won't find it by repeating yourself over and over and over and over and over, without doing some actual research and legwork. You've been given the tools to do so on this thread, yet you ignore those, too. Anyway, as I said, I (and I am sure others) will address the rest of your post once you have addressed the relevant posts and points that you have been studiously avoiding for days. |
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#1901 |
Goddess of Legaltainment™
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 36,237
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Actually, I probably should not have posted that lengthy response to your lame post, Christopher7, because I put more effort into it than you have into your posts.
The following would have been a more appropriate response, and one which I think is the only appropriate answer to your posts until you respond meaningfully to the posts and points that you have deliberately avoided and ignored above: I (and I am sure others) will address your post once you have addressed the relevant posts and points that you have been studiously avoiding for days. Edit to add: Oh, I see that this post started a new page (#39 on my screen as my settings allow 50 posts per page and this is post #1901, apparently) so I guess I should post these references for those who land on this page without seeing the history: For reference: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1875 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1888 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1879 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1880 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1888 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1893 Once again, I (and I am sure others) will address your post once you have addressed the relevant posts and points that you have been studiously avoiding above for days. |
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#1902 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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You should stop spamming this thread with demands that i respond to stupid insulting comments.
No one has responded to posts #1883, 1884 and 1885. Instead you fill up the page with your endless demands because you cannot accept or challenge the truth of what is in the FEMA and NIST reports. I am not going to respond to your demands again. They are just a blatent attempt to avoid the summary of what i have established in this thread based on statements in the FEMA and NIST reports. |
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#1903 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
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I am essentially in agreement with these three posts, based on FEMA and NIST's preliminary reports. My main disagreement, which I consider a nit-pick, is with your conclusion in post #1885:
NIST does not conclude that the damage was not a factor in the initiating event. You are making an unwarranted extrapolation. It's true that NIST does not factor the damage into their initiating event hypothesis. That is very different from concluding that it was not a factor. NIST did the appropriate thing: given that the nature of the damage was uncertain based on the known data, and given that any part the damage may have played in the initiating event would be (according to their hypothesis) eclipsed by the primary cause of heat-induced failure, they chose to exclude the damage from their analysis of the initiating event altogether. --------------------------------- All that being said, and even if we ignore my nit-pick and accept these three posts as stated, what exactly is your point? Engineers, architects, builders, regulators, steel-workers and -manufacturers, firemen, materials scientists, fire suppression and abatement researchers and manufacturers, etc. are all concerned with the possibility of fire-induced collapse of steel-framed structures. They all know it can, and occasionally does, happen. So why does NIST's hypothesis that WTC7's collapse was primarily a fire-induced failure strike you as so improbable, especially given all the concern that was expressed by knowledgable people at the scene? |
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#1904 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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Again, not necessarily TO YOU, because no matter what evidence is present or lacking, you don't adjust your views and beliefs.
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#1905 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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Nonsense.
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1884 http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2379864&postcount=1602 http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2379864&postcount=1282 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1082 Etc... ? |
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#1906 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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Thank you
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They ruled out the possibility that the damage to the south west part of WTC 7 was the primary cause of the initiating event. Since they left no stone unturned in their attempt to prove that debris damage and fire caused the collapse, they would have included the south west damage in their scenario if they thought it was a factor in the initiating event. ---------------------------------
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After debating here and re-reading parts of the FEMA and NIST reports to check on certain facts, i discovered that there is no evidence to support these claims. The extent of the fires in the east half of WTC 7 is not going to change in the 'final' report. The recently discovered damage to the south west part of WTC 7 was far from the initiating event and will not change the analysis that has already been done. pg 36 "Analysis of the global structure indicates that the structure redistributed the loads around the severed and damaged areas"
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The Windsor Tower cannot be use as an example because the support columns were reinforced concrete. The exterior columns of the top 10 stories were light weight [1/4 inch thick] box beams. This is entirely different from 'all steel' frame high rise buildings. The 'knowledgeable' people at the scene had just seen the Trade Towers collapse and they had lost hundreds of comrades. Their concern was based on the damage to the south side of the building. Three fire chiefs thought WTC 7 was in danger of collapse, one did not. |
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#1907 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,374
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BS. That is total conjecture meant to hand wave away serious flaws in your theory. I noticed your single quotes around the world knowledgeable, as if you are implying perhaps they were not 'really' knowledgeable as well.
You use the same arguments over and over and over and over again, as if you expect to suddenly become right after the 354th time. But, even on the 355th time, your argument remains simple biased conjecture based on gut feeling, raw ideology, and a complete misunderstanding of the facts. Believe me, you are having your butt handed to you in this debate, and I say that with all due respect. |
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#1908 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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What i have presented is not a theory, it is a list of facts from the FEMA and NIST reports
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chipmunk stew referred to the fire chiefs as knowledgeable rather than experts as many have. [indicating that they had degrees in engineering] My intent was to point this out, no offence intended.
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My summary is a list of facts. chipmunk stew is a serious debater, you are not. He addressed the issue directly, you chose to ignore the issue and criticize the use of quotes. ETA: Belz, gotta go now. I'll get to your post later. |
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#1909 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
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Clearly, they did leave stones unturned, which is why they issued a PRELIMINARY report. They were not satisfied that the analysis was complete. You are correct in saying that they ruled out the SW damage as the PRIMARY cause of the initiating event. You are incorrect in presuming that they have ruled it out as a factor.
Really? Diesel fuel fires? The hypothesis I've heard most often is that of NIST's, which implicates ordinary combustibles. I call straw man. Perhaps, but I think you're being presumptuous. Unless you've seen a draft of the final report. What does this quote mean to you? If the loads around the severed and damaged areas were redistributed, that means other, intact parts of the structure picked up the loads. What point are you trying to make with this quote? That's because designers, engineers, and builders are very keen on making sure their buildings remain standing under all likely scenarios. Designers assume that their buildings are going to experience a large fire at some point during the life of the building. It's their job to make sure that the building doesn't fall down under such a scenario. It is of very different construction, and I think trying to do one-to-one comparisons between buildings is fruitless and uninformative. But the Windsor Tower example does show the destructive potential of fire on steel structures. Total bollocks. The same concern was present during the Meridian Plaza fire in Philadelphia in 1991:
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[Source: see page 4] Look at the pictures at the end of the document to see how close this thing was to collapsing. |
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#1910 |
Goddess of Legaltainment™
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 36,237
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I am not "spamming" this thread with "demands" at all. I am merely suggesting that your repetitive rinse, lather, repeat nonsense not be addressed over and over again while you continue to ignore legitimate posts and points.
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I have no problem accepting the truth, unlike members of the inaptly named "truth movement", and I have no problem whatsoever with challenges to the contents of the NIST or FEMA reports. Again, stop being such a drama queen.
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Again, I have made no demands and, again, you have not responded to the legitimate posts and points above.
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I (and I am sure others) will address your repetitive posts (again) once you have addressed the relevant posts and points that you have been studiously avoiding for days. For reference: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1875 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1888 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1879 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1880 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1888 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1893 |
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#1911 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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NISTNCSTAR1-3B Draft pg 5 on page counter
The lack of WTC 7 steel precludes tests of actual material from the structure NCSTAR3-1 Executive Summary PG 2 the steel used in the construction of WTC 7 is described based solely on data from the literature because no steel from the building was recovered.
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Post #1602 was a revised version and posts #1883, 1884 and 1885 brought all 3 summaries together. |
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#1912 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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#1913 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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I disagree. If they thought it was a factor, they would have included it in their scenario IMO.
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Although some imply that the diesel fuel fires were involved in the collapse, none said that they were. However many here argued [for 20 pages] that it was possible. In post #1884 i presented evidence that there was no fire in the north east generator room. I would add to that: A 4" pipe is much stronger than a 2 1/2" pipe and a double wall pipe is much stronger than a single wall pipe. The single wall pipe connections in the east part of WTC 7, closer to the impact zone, would have broken before the double wall pipe at the other end of the building.
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Some floor support beams sagged as much as 3 feet but they did not collapse. "the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage." http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-049.pdf pg 24 |
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#1914 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
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It's not just redundancy. It's passive and active fire suppression, firewalling, and firefighting operations, all of which were compromised in building 7 on 9/11.
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NIST's hypothesis is entirely plausible according to every single person who has experience working with fire and steel structures. Your implication that it is not plausible is entirely without merit. |
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#1915 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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#1916 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,538
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The passive fire protection [fireproofing] in the area of the initiating event was not damaged by debris.
There was no active fire supression [sprinklers] in WTC 7. There were no sprinklers on the floors that burned in the Meridian Tower. When the fire got to the 30th floor, the sprinklers there put the fire out. Due to inadequate water pressure, the fire burned out of control for 19 hours. Beams and girders sagged and twisted but they did not collapse. The columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage.
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Someone thinking that a building is in danger of collapse does not make it so.
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#1917 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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#1918 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,374
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#1919 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
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The water pressure problem only applied to the internal firefighting effort.
The fires were continuously fought externally, beginning when the fire was still confined to the 22nd floor.
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The fact is, your argument is nothing more than an argument from personal incredulity, which is not enough to dismiss the hypothesis developed by NIST. |
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#1920 |
Ardent Formulist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 15,334
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The WTC tragedy has brought a major problem to the forefront -- fireproofing is often not installed correctly, or simply doesn't perform as it should.
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How much mass did these beams and girders support? More than forty stories? Where they the ONLY means of support? |
__________________
To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens. |
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