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#1 | ||
Student
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 39
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Challenge to conspiracy "debunkers"
Since I can't post a linc try
tvnewsliesdotorg Challenge above, excerpt below.
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Looks like they actually welcome critical thinking there.
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#2 |
Downsitting Citizen
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,078
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I meet conspiracy believers face to face. I did so again yesterday. I'm debating Jim Fetzer next week.
Your post is silly and contains blatant falsehoods. "Hijacker identity issue!" Please get a grip on reality. It's the conspiracists who are intellectual cowards. We prove it all the time. Edit: Are you claiming that Jesse of TVnewslies has access to airtime on Larry King, Oprah, Regis, etc.? If so, count me in. I'll gladly debate any prominent 9/11 conspiracist on national TV. Any day. Clear enough? |
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"Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard |
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#3 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,154
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RE: "If you refuse this challenge, your silence will show that you have no explanations and no defense to support the official story of 9/11. If you refuse to respond, you lose by default. Simple as that."
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RE: "If you can’t answer our questions, ALL OF THE QUESTIONS, the verdict will be obvious. "
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#4 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,374
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OP your little emotionally charged yet short on real facts diatribe is everything in a nutshell as to why we do what we do.
Thanks. |
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#5 |
Gazerbeam's Protege
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,617
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I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding. AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant |
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#6 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 25,817
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I don't speak to rude people.
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#7 |
Time Person of the Year, 2006
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 19,246
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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#8 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,532
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Sometimes going by "Nyke" | "Pascal's Wager: Believe in Unicorns, or one might kick you in the nads!" | "There is no hope for humanity. Reason is dead and we dance on the corpse. Tra la la la la!" --c4ts | Intelligent Design & Expelled Exposed | I'm on dial-up. If you want to reply to me, summarize please. |
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#9 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,752
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#10 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
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When was this written? It sounds like it's at least a year old. The author even mentions "Michael Chertoff’s cousin who wrote the recent propaganda piece in Popular Mechanics"
edit: YESTERDAY?!? This confirms for me that once people cross the threshold from reality to Truthiness, whatever Truthy claims were around at the moment they took that final step are frozen in time for them, and they will simply not stop believing them, regardless of the quality of any subsequent contra-evidence. |
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#11 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,154
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Well, firstly, welcome to the forum.
Secondly, who are you and why should I care?
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And we're always encouraging people to study the evidence, especially the 'truthers'. It's just that most of them refuse to. Can you help rectify that?
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Agree to discuss your people on your terms or SHUT UP. How very democratic.
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Listening to people droning on endlessly as if the 911 conspiracy is a done deal and ignoring all the evidence contrary to their fantasies. What also annoys me is that thosesame people then go about their everyday lives, working, eating, making with the love, paying taxes, going on holiday etc etc.....but become fearless warriors for the'truth' when they sit in front of their computers.
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I know in your utopia that would be slightly different.
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#12 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,073
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Why are you lacking facts? Simple question. Where are your facts and evidence? Where?
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#13 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
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And how does one highlight an omission?
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#14 |
Undead Skeptic
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 378
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Looks to me like one giant attempt to shift the burden of proof. Debunker's have to answer every single question they have or be considered 100% wrong. How does that make sense. Not to mention the "practice what you preach against" mentality that seems so prolific amongst the CT crowd. Accusing debunkers of a "debunk a raindrop to disprove a storm” approach while he tries to snipe out with the Michael Chertoff's cousin junk. (Which only proves that he's not really up to date on his CT info, that's been debunked ages ago)
He must know he has no facts or real evidence on his side, which is why he has to set all the rules to be in his favor. Wouldn't want to have a level playing field now, would we? |
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"Omne ignotum pro magnifico" (Everything unknown passes for something splendid) - Publius Cornelius Tacitus "No two humans are created equal. They're like snowflakes with a 250° C combustion temperature." Freefall comic |
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#15 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
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this same guy has spammed myspace news and politics foru with the same posting. its a drive-by poster.
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Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato. “Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.” “Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.” |
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#16 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,871
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Here's a challenge for you, Mike Stephens:
Contact engineers and bring them on-side with your movement. www.progressiveengineer.com/firms.html You guys don't have any real experts on your side and appear uninterested in changing the situation. Why is that? |
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#17 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,488
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So er...I think I missed something...got any evidence?
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#18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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Please note, my responses are to the article, not the person (Mike) who posted it....The quotes I have highlighted are not his, but from the article.
Bring it on...again. I have discussed this at length with a truther who lives in my city. It went absolutely nowhere. As for all the truthers out there waiting for us...if NYC GZ for the 5th ani was any sort of meter stick, your movement is beyond miniscule...800-1000 people...yet you claim 100,000+ in your movement...that isnt a very good showing if you ask me...who isnt coming out to discuss the issues??? Who the hell are you to decide when and where the discussion is to take place? History has taught us different. In many forums people have answered your questions. Debates have been held, NIST put out an FAQ. What you really mean is "If you admit we are right, and you wrong, we will go away". Then do what a good american should do. Go to someone who can do something about it, show them your "evidence" and bring your alleged criminals to justice....Piss or get off the pot. Beyond the fact that your movement does more to hurt its own credibility than all the debunkers could possibly do themselves, maybe you should focus on change from within. False, untrue, proven to be false. Thats lie #1. False, untrue. That is lie #2. There is no co-ordinate effort, just a bunch of smart, logical, unduped individuals who think what you spue is dispicable. False, untrue. that is lie#3. We encourage people to look at THE EVIDENCE. We encourage them to look at it with a SKEPTICAL eye, and to make sure the sources are reputable, to make sure the articles are TRUELY peer reviewed. It is the truth movement that spues venoms accusations based on nothing only evidenceless speculation. Yes daddy. I've been a bad boy. I promise to do what you say, when you tell me to do it...cause your the boss. Well you know what I say to my children...If you don't like whats on, TURN THE CHANNEL, or TURN IT OFF. Pot meet Kettle...Kettle meet Pot. works both ways... here is a challenge, take the average age of the users here at JREF, and compare it to the average age of the posters at any of the top 9/11 truth forums... So I guess you'll be buying a ticket and travelling to DC, right? That is where the leaders are...At least Michael Moore had the courage to actually go there, and confront some of them...have you? Funny, for all the lies and omissions and errors you claim PM have written, I have yet to see one truther article that actually DEBUNKS any of the claims, unless you call a hundred LINKS to PRISONPLANET articles a debunking. Yes, the verdict will be that there are some unknowns...are you surprised? Untrue, false, that is lie #4. That may be your opinion, but it is not fact. If we fail to take up your challenge, it could mean (a) we live too far away, (b) we don't care to share the same room or airtime with you, (c) we just don't like you, (d) we feel other modes of debating the issues are better suited to our style of debate or discussion...it is an individual thing. Untrue, false, lie #5. The burden to prove extraordinary claims, held by a VERY SMALL minority, in opposition to the view held by the MAJORITY, is on the minority with the alternative view...that is you. Lie #6. In SIX years, your movement has PROVEN nothing. They have insinuated an aweful lot, have made conjecture, have asked questions, but you have not, and cannot prove your case. You can go now then. It has been proven to the general public who accept the majority of the official story. We do not need to prove it to all...you are a small minority. Or else what, you gonna drag your neighbour out of his house to march on washington...I hope he appreciates it? On this I agree. the more your top truthers speak, the MORE REDICULOUS YOU SEEM. Lets get Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer, Alex Jones, Morgan Reynolds, all of them out on the TV...trust me, you will NOT LIKE THE RESULT. You'll set the agenda? I think Larry, Oprah, and Regis will SET THE AGENDA, not you. Go for it. See you on the tv Jesse. Tell them, and then when you awaken the giant, and they crush your pathetic speculations and coinsidences with the REAL truth, don't come whining back here. You've got to be kidding right. 6 years into this you are not still bringing up the rediculous "hijackers are still alive" stuff are you...this debate will be over before it starts if that is what you are bringing to the table. Can we reprint and read out this segment when you get on TV. I am sure your audience will love being called "simpletons". If all americans were aware of the things you are, the only thing you will see is alot of people in the audience shaking their heads and laughing. Hard to spin such childishness and hatefulness. TAM ![]() |
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#19 |
lorcutus.tolere
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
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I'm sure I read this challenge in another thread here somewhere...
-Gumboot |
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#20 |
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,843
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Consider what done exactly? Your questions have been answered, all your bunk as been debunked, yet you still throw it out. If you have something new to bring to the table do so, otherwise stick to your personnel attacks of those who find your conspiracies hard to believe. Remember I am Joe Public, I am not the guy who has to prove you wrong, and I am the guy you have to convince. The burden of proof does not lie with me.
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No one is responding because many people adopt the simple approach of never giving a fool the time of day, not because people are afraid of you, not because you are the saviour of humanity and have unearthed the most dastardly plot ever, but because most people simply do not believe you. You have been debunked by facts, logic and evidence, you refuse to accept this, therefore you are not even worthy of any public attention. The only attention you get , is exactly what you deserve, that being internet based, here you will remain, pumping out you tube videos and subscribing to Prison Planet and pretending everybody needs to listen to you. Nobody needs to listen to you, until you produce some facts and evidence and not the same recycled rubbish.
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There is no coordinated effect by people to eliminate 911 discussions, it is healthy and welcome. What is not welcome is the venom spewed by individuals like you who wrongly believe that your evidence is credible and deserves to be heard again and again. It does not, it has been heard the first time, it has been debunked, yet you keep repeating them, you keep repeating the same lies over and over again. Your lies will never become fact, irrespective of how many times you repeat them.
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I am fed up with fools from the truth movement presenting the same arguments over and over again and no matter how many times they are debunked they still come. I am fed with fools from the truth jumping on the moral high horse and pretending they are the only people who can see Bush for what he is and that everybody else is blissfully unaware of the world’s problems. I am fed up with you tube investigators, 911 conspiracy DVDs and I am fed with “inside job “T shirts. I am fed with individuals like you feeding off this event and individuals that simply line their own pockets by spreading lies about it. I am fed up with nobodies thinking they are important and deserve to be heard so they can further promote their lies. I am fed up with individuals who, when their lies are exposed and then ignored try to claim it all part of a massive conspiracy to silence them.
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Your lies and deceptions have all been exposed, your movement is dying and will soon be consigned to the history books as on of the most despicable and desperate things that ever came out of this dreadful event. Blood suckers who have not get a care for anything other than promoting their DVD, book, T shirt or their own ego. Welcome to history, you are part of it. .
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As for the rest of your self centred drivel it does not even deserve a response. The only reason I even bothered responding in the first place is because I feel like good rant and I am sick of this sort nonsense still being promoted by self styled gurus who know they are lying but could not care less. |
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#21 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 619
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This crap a PR stunt. I can see through it a mile away. They know the truthers are the ones discrediting themselves. I'll just repeat what's on my site...
Q: Why don't you engage in public debate? Doesn't that mean you can't back up what you're saying? A: What in the world do you think I'm doing on this web site? Am I not publicly debating the issue? Why should a hall filled with conspiracy theorists clapping at every utterance from one of the "scholars" change the facts on this site? I find it interesting that for some reason the people in the "truth" movement need an audience to cheer them on in order to find the truth. I prefer that people read the sites without interruption and make up their own minds. This is just more evidence to me that the "truth" movement is all politics. They need a person to person debate as if this was a political race. I say put it up on your web sites and shut up about debates. You're just pissed because you can't change the topic and ask 20 questions to things which take more time than we might have to explain. Too BAD! This issue is much like the evolution/creation debate in that I can mirror the reasons why I chose not to debate conspiracy theorists. The proper venue for debating scientific issues is at science conferences and in peer-reviewed scientific journals. In such a venue, the claims can be checked by anyone at their leisure. Conspiracy Theorists are unwilling to debate there. Public debates are usually set up so that the winners are determined by public speaking ability, not by quality of material. Debate formats, both spoken and written, usually do not allow space for sufficient examination of points. A common tactic used by some prominent conspiracy theorists is to rattle off dozens of bits of misinformation in rapid succession. It is impossible for the responder to address each in the time or space allotted. Notwithstanding the above points, there have been several debates, both live and online. I don't need to add myself to the list. |
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"Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!" - Groucho Marks "The A.D.L. is the scum of the earth."... "You aren't going to use that last line out of context, are you?" - Alex Jones http://www.debunking911.com Try the new POWER Debunker search engine! http://www.jod911.com |
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#22 |
Student
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 39
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Am glad to see that there have been a few replys to my post. Have any of you followed up with the offer for debate with the editor of the story I posted - Jesse? Naw, I didn't think so.
I have debated this with several friends and co-workers. None of us really have a clue as to what went on that day, mainly because there never really was much of an investigation. Not to mention that most of the evidence was trucked away to a barge and shipped to China. Now why would that be necessary unless there was something to hide? And Arkan, you should know that it is impossible to "prove" a negative. I am licensed as a professional engineer in two states, Arkansas & Oklahoma, and before you start belittling me because I practice in these states, rest assured that engineers here have to pass the same test that all other engineers across the country have to take in order to get licensed, that is except for California and Alaska, where obviously they have some seismic issues that have to be addressed. As for identy of the terrorists, how can we question when the passport falls from the pocket of a "terrorist" to the street below where the plane struck the building. That same passport, found in pristine condition, blown safely away from the fireball that we have all witnessed dozens of times. How convenient. Myself, all I require for proof is my own perception. I have seen buildings fall as a result of controlled demolition, and my own training as a professional engineer aids in this respect. As a result of studying subjects like statics, dynamics, strengths of materials, I know that it is very difficult to get a building to fall down within its own footprint without the help of some very talented explosives experts. If only one column holds its integrity for half a second longer than other columns, this alone would be enough to cause the structure to fall laterally, outside its own footprint. Yet this is just what happened to WTC 7, even though it was not struck by a jet (hence no jet fuel - just diesel from backup power generators) it too fell neatly inside its own footprint, even though buildings between the twin towers and bldg 7 are still standing today. When I see the crimp in the middle of the building and squids popping out the sides as the building crumbles down, I see a controlled demolition. I wonder, what do the rest of you see? |
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#23 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,154
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#24 |
Curing Stupidity
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,158
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Mike,
You may be an engineer, but you are spouting the same stuff we have heard hundreds of times. The "footprint" issue, the steel being sold, the crimp, no jet at WTC. Do yourself a favor and use the search function, read the Loose Change guide, read 911myths.com, read debunking911, read the 9/11 Mysteries guide, read the NIST report (even just the FAQ). Take some time to educate yourself. We've heard it all, and debunked it all before. |
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#25 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,671
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#26 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,008
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A suicide note written on an air-sickeness bag survived this plane crash: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_1771
Guess that was fake too. Bit too convenient?
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![]() Why if there debris atop a 15 story building across Barclay St if WTC7 fell neatly inside it's own footprint? Squibs - these 'squibs' are couple of blotchy marks that appear after the building has begun to drop, and appear in windows that were hit by debris from WTC1: http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_squibs.html Why on earth would explosives be placed on the 40th+ floor of a building that clearly collapsed from the base? And why would they be placed next to the windows? Why does the area with explosives detonating stay intact as it falls to the ground? Why did nobody hear these explosives? And the building between WTC7 and WTC1 was WTC6, it was totally wrecked on 9/11 and the remains were demolished before the end of 2001. |
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R.I.P Dr. Adequate |
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#27 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
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Did the buildings between WTC7 and the Twin Towers ever got hit? Was there any fire? It's hard for a buildng to go down when there is no initiation.
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MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom |
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#28 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 995
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#29 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
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proof stephens not an engineer in his own post
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911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
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#30 |
Student
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 39
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One more point: why does everyone except the truthers have amnesia with regard to Al Qaeda (the database)? Am I the only one in here who remembers that our own CIA started Al Qaeda in order to aid the afghanis in their struggle against USSR? Qaeda literally means database - database of foreign insurgents in this case. But all of a sudden the Al CIA-duh went rogue and turned on their masters without their handlers knowing anything. How moronically naive.
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#31 |
Evil Fokker
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 13,920
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First of all, the passport is hardly pristine. Second of all, if you had the level of engineering experience you claim to have, you would know that small, lightweight items can be blown away from explosions. You do realise that patches from the destroyed shuttle survived, yes? You do know that papers from offices that were utterly destroyed in the impact were found, yes?
You should also know that the identity of the hijackers does not depend one bit on the passport being found. Sufficient evidence was found, much of it displayed in the Mossoui trial. There was enough evidence to convince the Saudi government that it was mostly their children on those planes. They were not exactly happy to admit that.
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You might want to read the preliminary report by NIST on WTC7. Its hardly final, but between that and your claim that it fell into its footprint, you might need some things explained to you. |
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#32 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,154
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#33 |
Curing Stupidity
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,158
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al Qaeda was not founded by the CIA. It was founded by Osama Bin Laden in 1988. The translation is "the base", not "the database".
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#34 |
Evil Fokker
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 13,920
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'The database'?
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www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun! Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013. |
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#35 | ||
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
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is this you? if so.. what were you disciplined for?
Michael Stephens
P.O. Box 15 Welling, OK 74471 Phone Number: (918) 458-5256 Email Address: ses@lrec.org EmployerAddressMichael Stephens, dba Stephens Engineering ServicesP.O. Box 15 Welling, OK 74471 PDH CarryOver Hours: 15 Disciplinary Status This individual has been formally disciplined by the board. Please contact the board for information. RegistrationType: PE Number: 20643 Registration Date: 14-JUN-02 Expiration Date: 28-FEB-09
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911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
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#36 |
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,843
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Really? you know all about the CIA funding of Al Qaeda do you? Please enlighten me.
The CIA started Al Qaeda did they? Well why don't you just enlighten me? (Hint The CIA funded the Mudahedeen; the CIA left Afghanistan when the Arab Afghan fighters left, when the Soviets pulled out.) |
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#37 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
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Al Qaeda means "the base", as OBL says this himself in a 2001 interview with al Jazeera journalist Tayseer Aloun
The name 'al-Qaeda' was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia's terrorism. We used to call the training camp al-Qaeda. The name stayed. http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/a...ipt/index.html The only people who say it is called "The Database" are dumb white people who don't even speak arabic. Continuing further, the mujahedeen was made up of several factions. There wasn't a single leader controlling all of them as 9/11 Deniers like to believe, so although there is evidence that the United States did fund the rebels through Pakistani ISI, there isn't any proof that they funded anything to Osama's army or "created" Al Qaeda. In fact, before the war ended, the organization was Maktab al-Khadamat founded by Osama Bin Laden and Abdullah Yusuf Azzam whose role was mainly to channel funds instead of direct combat. It was after the war that they named themselves Al Qaeda. The reason why the US had to go through Pakistan ISI is because the rebels weren't too fond of the United States either. They didn't want western influence whatsoever, so suggesting that they were trained by westerns would be a big disgrace to their belief and foundations of the organization. It would also make no sense because OBL was angry at the States for stepping into "holy land" (Mecca). He was angry with Saudi Arabia as well. This isn't consistent with your pet theories. Now back at the topic. Since you haven't answered any of our statements and resorted to derailing, I assume you have no evidence. Don't worry, your silence tells us all we need to know about your "expertise" and theories. |
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MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom |
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#38 |
The Clarity Is Devastating
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 18,918
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Actually I have no doubt that engineers in Arkansas or any other state of the U.S. are qualified and competent. After all, when do you ever hear warnings from AAA or other travel or consumer information providers say anything like "When you go to Arkansas, don't cross the bridges!"
Here's the information you need: ASCE, Journal of Architectural Engineering, Submission Guidelines page
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On the other hand, if your professional colleagues don't accept your hypotheses, why should we? Respectfully, Myriad |
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A zømbie once bit my sister... |
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#39 |
Student
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 39
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AW Smith, if you call that proof, you are a fool. My proof in hanging on the wall of my home office, next to my sheepskin, it's called a license to practice engineering, right there next to my certificate of authorization for my company. I guess you found proof as you have seen fit to publish my personal contact information.
And Augustine, why don't you go ahead and ask for my ss# phone and phys address too while you are at it? btw I was disciplined for writing a report for a client recommending the type of foundation to construct after I had passed my exam but before the state gave me my certificate, got in too big of a rush to practice engineering. And no, I am not a structural engineer, I practice in the fields of civil, environmental and geotechnical engineering. I don't design high-rises, but I probably know more about the physical world that most in this forum. At least I know that you cannot prove a negative, right Arkan? Judging by the number of posts of some you, you guys really should step away from your computers once in a while. There is a beautiful world around you waiting. Right now I've gotta go pick up some construction drawings from my draftsman, run them by the client before sending to state for approval. Somebody's gotta pay the bills around here... |
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#40 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
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