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#241 |
Student
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 39
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#242 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,102
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How did you mess up Payne Stewart's intercept so bad? You may not want to learn to fly if you mess up time real bad.
What is the next big challenge? He have had concrete WTC, 16 minute intercepts, and more. What is next? What other facts have you got totally wrong about 9/11 and NORAD? Batting zero so far on 9/11 and most CT you bring up. Where did you go wrong. Next challenge. What do you have for a 9/11 story of what happen, are you dieing to tell us who did 9/11? |
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#243 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
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Pardon the brief sidetrack to the current thrust of the discussion, but can we now consider the oil angle you proposed a couple of pages ago officially put to rest, Mike?
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#244 |
Muse
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 521
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oops
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http://911debunker.livejournal.com Last edited by chippy; 19th April 2007 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Comment screwed up, and I'm too tired to fix it |
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#245 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,488
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Awesome, I am glad that Mike is now obviously away reading all the links and about to come back and have a laugh at himself and readjust his 'beliefs' to align with actual facts.
Thats right isn't it Mike? |
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#246 |
lorcutus.tolere
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
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Wow Mike, you've gone off the deep end...
From first sign of distress, it took 81 minutes before a fighter aircraft reached Payne Stewart's aircraft. In contrast, from first sign of distress, the longest flight on 9/11 was AA77 which lasted 41 minutes. Payne Stewart's jet remained on a straight and level flight path at all times, with transponder operational. In contrast the flights on 9/11 did not maintain straight and level flight and their transponders were interfered with. Payne Stewart's aircraft was intercepted by a USAF fighter that was already airborne. On 9/11 the fighters relied on for intercept had to be scrambled from the ground first. At the time fighters were expected to be in the air within 15 minutes of the order being given. In the instance of Payne Stewart's learjet Jacksonville ARTCC notified the military almost immediately. On 9/11 the earliest warning NEADS would receive for any flight was 9 minutes for AA11. -Gumboot |
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#247 |
Cold-hearted skeptic
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,084
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I just posted a response to the original blog post where Jesse "called us out". Ron Wieck accepted his challenge, only to have Jesse decline for some reason.
I started to get a bit angry at him as I was writing, but, well, I stand by my words! I am posting my message here just in case it "goes missing" at the TvNewsLIES site. ETA: Kudos to the originator of the "roll out of bed" hypothesis. It was someone on this forum, but I can't remember who. I agreed with that so much I decided to "steal" it for this post.
Originally Posted by Me!
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Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers? - May 26, 2006 - Sep 25, 2008. Gone but not forgotten. Shameless plug for my website: Digging Apollo - Excavating the digital archaeology of the Apollo program. |
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#248 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,871
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#249 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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#250 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 310
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This is worse than watching Polish cavalry charging German Panzers on horseback.
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#251 |
Cold-hearted skeptic
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,084
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Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers? - May 26, 2006 - Sep 25, 2008. Gone but not forgotten. Shameless plug for my website: Digging Apollo - Excavating the digital archaeology of the Apollo program. |
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#252 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 33,647
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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#253 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 310
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#254 |
Cold-hearted skeptic
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,084
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Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers? - May 26, 2006 - Sep 25, 2008. Gone but not forgotten. Shameless plug for my website: Digging Apollo - Excavating the digital archaeology of the Apollo program. |
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#255 |
Curing Stupidity
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,158
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It troubles me that someone who would put out a challenge to us is reusing an argument that is, at best, horribly irrelevant.
There are so many differences between Payne Stewart and 9/11 that the only thing relating them does, is damage the truther's credibility. I take it the OP has read gumboot's response. So what we have is someone 'calling us out'. Ron accepted the challenge. The OP declines, despite making the challenge. He then resorts to recycling debunked threads on a message board. Poor form I would say. |
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#256 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 33,647
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I just noticed something rather amusing in this thread.
In post 212, Mike replies to Beachnut's post 206 giving 80 minutes as the interception time for Payne Stewart. In post 229, Mike posts a second reply to post 206, starting by saying, "Again 80 min?" He's replying twice to the same post, and complaining that it says the same thing both times. Well I thought it was funny. Dave |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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#257 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,785
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I thought Mike was asking about Thomas Paine's jet.
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#258 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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#259 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 10,754
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Quote:
C'mon, Mike. The above is just silly. In so many ways. You started a thread (this one), not in the spirit of rational inquiry, but in order to provoke and demean. That the OP words aren't your own is hardly a defense. Like it or not, the JREF is a forum that promotes and encourages critical thinking (with regard to all manner of topics). It is not a locale with a monolithic mindset, automatically adversarial to challenges; people here often disagree. However, when it comes to the subject of 9/11, there is in large part consensus. Why is that? The topic and its subtopics have been discussed and analyzed for well over a year; this subforum is almost entirely devoted to the issue. A great many people have seriously looked into the claims made by proponents of an "inside job" and found them lacking. Not simply a no-it-wasn't auto-response, but with careful and considered rebuttals. Not to mention evidence, something the average CTer seems ill-equipped to provide. Moreover, I have seen countless new members such as yourself enter the fray with bluster and swagger only to disappear after a short stay. My guess is that people in general confuse skepticism with critical thinking and are used to adopting a tone of wary disbelief in their lives, but are not prepared to actually engage in the latter. Me, I wish they'd stay -- there's a lot to learn and a lot of fun to be had in learning. One more thing: Am I a "knuckle-dragger?" Thanks to Disbelief for the LCF quote and link. |
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#260 |
Curing Stupidity
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,158
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Quote:
You came in here posing a challenge to "conspiracy debunkers". We provide you with "sincere questions" and suddenly you "don't have time" to answer them? Yet, you have time to go groveling over to Loose Change? Instead of wasting your time over at LC, how about answering our questions and responding to our statements. |
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#261 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,154
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#262 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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I suspected as much from the get-go.
For some reason, these truthers ALL seem reasonable and "on the fence" when they first post here. It doesn't take long before their political agenda, ignorance, lack of reason and close-mindedness begins to show. Surely, it's a coincidence that all of them happen to think this way. |
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#263 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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#264 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 995
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Mike, there are no peers on the truther/Loose Change side. The "911 Truth" movement has had: a 70+ year old civil engineer in California who has no professional distinction whatsoever, no publicly available resume, and no prominent buildings to his credit; and an offshore oil rig designer who was similarly professionally undistinguished without a single building design to his name. That is the extent of the structural engineering knowledge on the "Truth Movement" side.
On the other side, SOM and Thornton-Tomasetti, firms that together have four of the world's ten tallest buildings to their credit, helped write the NIST report. Leslie Robertson, the man who designed the WTC Towers, who I have met and seen speak, agrees with the NIST conclusions. I ask you the same questions I asked before:
Quote:
The Hyatt Regency walkway collapse was an engineering failure. The Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse was an engineering failure. The Hartford Civic Center roof collapse was an engineering failure. However, the WTC was not an engineering failure unless you are arguing that it should have been designed for a 225-ton plane impacting at a speed of 500 mph with over 20,000 gallons of jet fuel. If that is the case, I have a news flash for you: no tall building in the world is designed for that. There do exist building structures designed for the equivalent kinetic energy impact and explosive force of 9/11: they are called bunkers. They tend to be buried or partially buried, have very thick concrete walls with no windows, are aesthetically unpleasing and architecturally drab, and are very depressing places to work. Oh, if you have any questions about the Pentagon, or think no plane hit it, please call Allyn Kilsheimer. He is very much a common-sense, practical, structural engineer. However, be forewarned: he does not suffer fools gladly, and he was there after the attack. |
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#265 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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Well I would have been, has you not baited me into discussing things with you in your reply to that very post you quoted.
Next time, when someone says they will not discuss things with you, don't bait them by stating they are afraid to...I mean I am only human... have you admitted to being wrong on the 2.5h quote yet? TAM ![]() |
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#266 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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#267 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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Yes, I didn't want to say it, but this brain malfunction also results in pretty much all other forms of woo.
All of them. At the same time. |
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#268 |
Student
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 39
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#269 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,102
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#270 |
Student
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 39
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You all seem to be oblivious or intentionally obtuse, even to the point that you will not accept a "truther" point that the towers were composed of steel reinforced concrete. Of course with a tower structure of this height/base ratio it is almost required that the frame be constructed of steel beams, but the bulk of the building, all of those open spans like ceilings/floors, walls, those are constructed of steel reinforced concrete, as I stated earlier, not just concrete. Only an idiot pours concrete without reinforcing it with some type of high tensile strength material. How many in here have done just that, only to see the concrete crack and split?
Where do you think all of that powder / dust came from? Wallboard? Most of that was pulverized concrete. But you don't want to admit that because it adds another problem for your mainstream explanation. Where did the extra energy come from to pulverize the concrete? Fire isn't going to turn concrete into powder, not under those conditions. Checkout a construction site one of these days and you might see some truth to what I say. |
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#271 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,785
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Mike, you're the first person I've ever seen claim that the towers were composed of steel reinforced concrete.
ETA: Well, I know that Christophera fantasized that the cores were concrete, but I'm not holding his lunacy against any Troother. |
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#272 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,154
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Most of it was from wallboard.
Quote:
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#273 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,102
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Funny stuff. You need to study the WTC first and you will not look like a kid. Does your dad know you are using his id for your id?
Dust is also wrong. It was mostly wallboard and insulation. Sorry you should really go back to school and get some research practice. |
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#274 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19,563
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#275 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,785
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... and the concrete slabs did not contain steel rebar reinforcement - it was just lightweight concrete poured 4" thick onto a corrugated steel sheet, supported underneath that by steel floor trusses.
The concrete in no way provided structural support to the building - it was there simply to provide a hard surface for the tenants to walk on. Also, the walls and ceilings were not concrete at all. I hope your call for tag-team help over at the LC Forum goes well, because you've clearly jumped in over your head here. |
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#276 |
Downsitting Citizen
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,078
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Mike, I have to ask you: are you okay? I'm seriously concerned that you are becoming disconnected from reality. Just yesterday, you were taken to task and laughed at over your concrete claim, which is absurd. You were given many, many resources that will explain exactly how the buildings were constructed. But you choose to return today with the same claim.
I'm going to ask you again: please stop wasting our time. You are grossly misinformed. We've given you the resources necessary to learn about this subject. Use them.
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#277 |
NWO Master Conspirator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
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#278 |
NWO Master Conspirator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
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#279 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,102
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#280 |
NWO Master Conspirator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
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