I think I've heard every theist argument.

Azure said:
I believe that a supernatural being, God, created the universe is such a way that it could evolve by itself. So, your 'why' question should not be directed towards that, but towards my belief of a supernatural being having actually 'created' the universe.

To answer that....I sincerely believe that there had to be a controlling aspect to the creation, simply because of the chances a perfect planet could be created.

Does that mean there are no other perfect planets? No. But those perfect planets must have had perfect circumstances surrounding their creation as well.
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The "fine tune" argument? Hmmm, okay.
 
Azure said:
Thank you!

I remember reading something about that.

Wasn't there a movie made about such a following?
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I wouldn't doubt it.

Azure said:
Yes, what created the creator? Nobody seems to know that answer.
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Causa sui is the traditional response from theists.
Not much of an answer really, but hey, it's a tough question! :o
 
Jon. said:
It doesn't mean there was, either.
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Absolutely.

So, if you're willing to stop there, why are you not willing to stop one question earlier and say you don't know what caused the Big Bang?
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You don't know either.

I choose to believe it was God, especially given the perfect circumstances of our planet.

The anthropic principle. Have you ever considered that you're throwing a dart at a big wall, then drawing the target around the dart and declaring that you have scored a bulls-eye? The universe is an awfully big place. The odds were very very good that some planet(s) would be "perfect" so as to give rise to life. Earth was (the) one, so we are here to ask the question. If some other planet had been "perfect" we would have been there asking the same question.
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Odds are very good? Remote, to say the least.

And if this being is so powerful, and can create any universe it wishes, doesn't it seem awfully wasteful to create such a vast one just to give rise to us?
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Well he could do like Xenu did and stack us into volcano's and blow up up with hydrogen bombs.

Why wasteful? I never said there were no other planets with lifeforms.

There are plenty of gods that have been female, although those have been within pantheons that also included male gods. I just wonder why you adopt so many of the attributes of the Christian god but balk at this one.
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I never balked at it. Just seems stupid to suddenly attribute gender to the essence of God. Again, WOULD a supernatural being have a gender?

Good luck with that. ;)
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Thanks.

Seriously, though, have you considered this? That would imply that God was careful not to leave evidence of his/her/its existence, just so that we could believe by faith. What kind of twisted logic is that? The same kind that makes gardens with one forbidden fruit tree, I guess.:rolleyes:
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If God would have left 'scientific' evidence...where would faith go?

Remember, people believe looking outside gives them 'proof' God exists...when in fact it gives them nothing in the way of 'real' proof.
 
Azure said:
I never professed to have all the answers.

Like blobru said...it is a tough question.
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It gets tougher as you keep trying to pigeon-hole yourself into a belief.

When someone asks you "why?", it is at least polite to explain in your response why you choose not to answer such a question. Just a pointer.

If you don't like it, by all means, go away.
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I'll go where I like, thanks.

Anyways, I feel like I should make an argument here. You talk about our "perfect planet" so often, I have to ask you a question:

Would we even be able to marvel at a planet if we didn't exist on it?

Think about it for a second. If there's a billion in one chance of having a world that can support life, then life will evolve on one world out of a billion.

Think about it some more. To the life that evolves on that world, they will adapt to the planet to perfection. Of course sunlight and water will be great to those that live on the world with sunlight and water. We've adapted perfectly to our surroundings thanks to evolution, and yet we're limited to what's available on this planet. There are spectrum of light we cannot see, frequencies of sound that we cannot hear, and all for a very specific reason: Evolution selected for it. There is nothing supernatural about any of it.

Think about it yet further. To the perspective any life that evolved on any world, the elements are "perfect" for life in their surrounding area. But what was so incredibly special?

Absolutely nothing. Just statistics. A one in a billion chance is an incredibly vast number, and a one in a bajillion is even larger. But if you have a large enough data set, that number is not so incredible, and the probability of at least one instance become closer and closer to 1. From the perspective of that one, it's incredible, but statistically speaking, it's nothing at all.

You want to fudge the numbers and add in your god-being. That's fine. But I find inventing mythical concepts to be rather silly.
 
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Lonewulf said:
It gets tougher as you keep trying to pigeon-hole yourself into a belief.

When someone asks you "why?", it is at least polite to explain in your response why you choose not to answer such a question. Just a pointer.
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I missed it the first time.

Or is that a problem?

You want to fudge the numbers and add in your god-being. That's fine. But I find inventing mythical concepts to be rather silly.
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Are you done now?

I don't care what you think is silly.
 
Azure said:
I missed it the first time.

Or is that a problem?

Are you done now?

I don't care what you think is silly.
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That's cool. I edited my post above. If you want to respond, that's fine.
 
Lonewulf said:
That's cool. I edited my post above. If you want to respond, that's fine.
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I read it.

I can't disagree with it, because I believe in evolution.

i have already said that I believe our universe was created to evolve by itself.
 
Azure said:
I read it.

I can't disagree with it, because I believe in evolution.

i have already said that I believe our universe was created to evolve by itself.
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To answer that....I sincerely believe that there had to be a controlling aspect to the creation, simply because of the chances a perfect planet could be created.
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^--- I was refuting this argument.

With a large enough data set, a "perfect planet" is not anything spectacular. There does not need to be a controlling aspect. Just physics, time, and statistics.

Maybe I just disagree with you because I'm "pre-wired" to. No free will or thinking, just wiring. ;)
 
Lonewulf said:
^--- I was refuting this argument.

With a large enough data set, a "perfect planet" is not anything spectacular. There does not need to be a controlling aspect. Just physics, time, and statistics.

Maybe I just disagree with you because I'm "pre-wired" to. No free will or thinking, just wiring. ;)
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And I have said all along that other 'perfect' planets could very well exist.

Maybe we are pre-wired...I seriously doubt it though.

My belief system came from a result of numerous teachings and a lot of reading.

Not because I was hardwired to automatically believe that way.
 
Azure said:
And I have said all along that other 'perfect' planets could very well exist.

Maybe we are pre-wired...I seriously doubt it though.

My belief system came from a result of numerous teachings and a lot of reading.

Not because I was hardwired to automatically believe that way.
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Personally, I have never felt that a concept of god can be proven/disproven (never much cared to try either), but have done a little bit of reading on the whole "hard-wired" bit. You may want to try this author and this website.


ETA: By author, I mean Ramachandran, not the blog author.
 
Hokulele said:
Personally, I have never felt that a concept of god can be proven/disproven (never much cared to try either), but have done a little bit of reading on the whole "hard-wired" bit. You may want to try this author and this website.


ETA: By author, I mean Ramachandran, not the blog author.
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And if he is right....do we have free-will?

What other things are we hard-wired to believe in?

EDIT: I have to say, I agree with your initial comment. There is no point in trying to prove/disprove God.
 
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CapelDodger said:
Your concern has as much impact as your beliefs. It remains silly (infantile, even) to conjure-up supernatural comfort-blankets, however woolly they are.
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Are you done?

You think I care what you think is silly?
 
Azure said:
Did I say it was proof?

How many times have I stated that it is impossible to prove/disprove God?
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In short, you believe in something without any adequate reason for doing so. Okay.

Is there anything else that can be believed in without any adequate reason for doing so?

And if he is right....do we have free-will?
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Define "Free Will"? From my perception, we are capable of making choices, there is no doubt about that. But I am a determinist, in that I think of the universe in terms of cause and effect, instead of complete randomness.

What other things are we hard-wired to believe in?
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Where do thoughts or decisions come from? Is it something in the body, or without? In this universe or without?
 
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