Smart Kid

The faith in Christ comes automatically as you read the book.

I've read the Book of Mormon (and the Pearl of Great Price), but I didn't get this automatic faith in Christ. I'm still an atheist. Maybe the book I read was faulty? Can I get a new one?

You are assuming that we are atheists because we haven't read your book. But most people in here are well versed in religion, and have read several holy books, including the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon. In fact, there are ex-Mormons on the forum.

Is anyone out there willing to run the experiment?

Tried it. Didn't work. Now what?
 
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toddjh - thanks for the reply. I've responded to some of what you've said in my reponses to others here. Once thing specific to your response was that the experiment and its result IS the experience that changes belief.
 
Ryokan - if you read my original post, you'll see that I also read it once and got no answer and was atheist too. I found out later that it was because I wasn't running the experiment correctly. You can get a new book just in case though. :)

You stated that you "are still an atheist." So I think I didn't assume you are atheist. The thread is about atheism. If I assume someone's an atheist and they're not - forgive me.
 
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Einstein once said something to the effect that he didn't know what weapons the third world war will be fought with but the fourth will be fought with sticks and stones.

While Einstein was a great scientist just because he said the above doesn't mean it will happen and certainly doesn't make it a fact. On the other hand his theory of relativity is there for everyone to see, use, validate and possibly invalidate.

If Abraham says that god lives near a star of some name, unless he has star charts and evidence that can be independently verified it's just philosophical musings. If he left behind the exact location of this star so that we can look then he was doing science. Otherwise, I can make stuff up too.
 
Ryokan - if you read my original post, you'll see that I also read it once and got no answer and was atheist too. I found out later that it was because I wasn't running the experiment correctly. You can get a new book just in case though. :)

The experiment seems awfully simple.

Read the Book of Mormon, get automatic faith in Christ, pray, revelation.

What were you doing wrong? I'm always up for trying new things, although I dread reading that awfully boring book again.

My Book of Mormon is still on my bookshelf, next to the Bible. And it's not one of those mass produced books that missionaries hand out, it's a beautifully illustrated version.
 
Dark Jaguar - I completely get the selection pressure and reproduction, etc. I was asking why some things are living and why some things are not - what is at the cause of "life" to an atheist?

Being atheist gives no insight whatsoever to a "cause" for life.

How there is living things is very interesting to me. Why there is living things is a philosophical question. Does there need to be a why?
 
jimlintott - Abraham and the Book of Mormon could just be people making stuff up. Unless you run the experiment, you'll never know. Again - is it possible that there is a way to acquire knowledge that is different than what you're used to?
 
The faith in Christ comes automatically as you read the book. You don't have to have it right now. It would be like saying that a byproduct of the first step of an experiment is needed for the final step in the experiment.

How does this assertion square with your earlier observation:


When I was in high school, I read the book and prayed about it and didn't get an answer at all. I found that I had not performed the experiment correctly. I lacked a sincere heart, real intent, and faith in Christ I was looking to disprove it and for an excuse to go party instead of being "religious".

If the faith in Christ comes "automatically" then why didn't you get it when you read the Book of Mormon in high school?

If I read the book and don't then have faith in Christ, should I proceed to the prayer stage or not?

I get what you're saying. It's not just a "feeling" I get after reading a book but nobody here can understand that until they have tried the experiment. It is a bit difficult for me to explain, but the nature of the result is such that someone else getting a negative result just means they didn't do the experiment correctly. I know you'll are going to hate that response, but it's true. Try it and find out. Refusing to even try the experiment because it doesn't match what you've seen in the past is strange to me.

I'm not necessarily refusing; I'm just trying to clarify some of your conditions.

Is it possible that there is a different way to acquire knowledge than what you're used to?

I am not aware of any evidence that would support the acquisition of knowledge otherwise than through the five senses and the application of reason to the observations gained thereby.



It's only subjective to the person who hasn't run the experiment yet. It's completely objective to the one who has run the experiment.

BS. If only the person who does the experiment can experience the result, then it's subjective.

Again, there is another way to acquire knowledge - rejecting it simply because it doesn't match other ways of proving something is like saying you don't like carrots before you've tried them.

Again, have you read (in their entirety) the holy books of all the other religions - the Qu'ran, the Bhagavad Gita, Dianetics, the Tao, the Guru Granth Sahib, the Tripitaka, etc.? If not, how do you reject them? And don't say that you don't reject them - you must if you have faith that Jesus Christ is "the way, the truth and the life; no-one will come to the Father except through" him.

Truth is compatible with all other truth no matter where it is found.

When you find parts of the Book of Mormon that are incompatible with scientifically proven truths, which will you reject?

I've read parts of the Qu'ran and have found truth in it, certainly. I have done this experiment on the new testament and I have found that this method works to find the truth of all things regardless of the name of the book or whether the item in question is "religious" or not. I have found truth in a lot of different sources. Truth doesn't come from books, books can document pieces of the truth though. The experiment doesn't require faith in anything other than Christ, which again, is a byproduct of the first part of this experiment.

In other words, you haven't done this experiment with any book other than those particular to your religion. Why? How do you think this affects the results of your experiment?

I would assume that men are fallible and help them continue their research until they found the truth of the matter. You'll hate that response too and unless you've tried the experiment, you'll not understand that response. Once you've successfully tried the experiment, you'll understand why I would take such a stance.

So you would assume that the scientists are wrong? Why not assume that Joseph Smith was wrong? Better yet, why not put the two together and see if there is an explanation that fits both?

You don't have to assume anything. Start at the first step and move from there.

Is anyone out there willing to run the experiment?


If (and it's a big IF) I were willing to read the Book of Mormon through, and provide my feedback as I went, would you be willing to:

(a) stick around these boards to respond to any questions I might have as I read;
(b) read a book of my choosing with an open mind and be prepared to either accept it or refute it with reasoned arguments; and
(c) if the experiment "fails" (ie. I do not, at the end of the process, accept the truth of the Book of Mormon), consider my data point to be as valid as your own?
 
jimlintott - Abraham and the Book of Mormon could just be people making stuff up. Unless you run the experiment, you'll never know. Again - is it possible that there is a way to acquire knowledge that is different than what you're used to?

What experiment?

I can only know what my (our) senses reveal. I know of no other way.
 
ryokan - if you read my original post more carefully, you'll find out what I did wrong initially. Hmm, I don't find the book boring - I actually learn a lot from it each time I read it. Can I have your copy? ;-)

jimlintott - when I was an atheist, I couldn't help but wonder about life and living things and how that could be explained within the context of my atheism.
 
jimlintott - when I was an atheist, I couldn't help but wonder about life and living things and how that could be explained within the context of my atheism.


Lots of other people have wondered the same things. Did you do any research to see what other people had concluded on these points? What sources did you consult?
 
I'll admit that it's been 12 years since I read the Book of Mormon.

I'm willing to reread it, if rcronk is willing to read the Dhammapada.



ETA:

ryokan - if you read my original post more carefully, you'll find out what I did wrong initially. Hmm, I don't find the book boring - I actually learn a lot from it each time I read it. Can I have your copy? ;-)

Then the experiment is not as easy as you claim. I have to already believe in your god for it to work? The slightest bit of scepticism ruins the experiment?

That's not how science works. You get the same result from an experiment, no matter what you believe.

No, you can't have my copy, I like it ;)
 
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rcronk, since you appear to have missed my last question, I would like to try and make sure I understand your response to me from earlier.

You had stated that this experiment applies to all religions, including atheists. Does this mean that if I read another religious text, such as one of the Upanishads, and pray for guidance, say to Shiva, I will become a believer in Hinduism? Or does this only apply to the Book of Mormon?
 
You had stated that this experiment applies to all religions, including atheists. Does this mean that if I read another religious text, such as one of the Upanishads, and pray for guidance, say to Shiva, I will become a believer in Hinduism? Or does this only apply to the Book of Mormon?

Well, that's one thing I was going to propose we find out.

I try rcronk's experiment, read the Book of Mormon and pray. In exchange, rcronc can read the Dhammapada and try to follow the Eightfold Path.

That should be fair enough, right? Rcronk should be willing to do an elaborate experiment himself, since he's advocating others do it.

I'm up for it. I'm going on holiday to Turkey on friday, and haven't found a book to read yet. Maybe it's time to reread the Book of Mormon.
 
Jon. - I didn't get faith because I didn't have sincerity about finding the truth concerning the book. You could proceed to prayer without faith and see what happens - it didn't work when I tried it.

Five senses? Do you have kids or parents or someone you love? Have you felt love? Isn't that outside of your five senses? If so, could it be possible that you could receive not only a physical sensation as I described but also knowledge through something other than five senses?

objective:undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena - when you receive the answer, you'll know that it came from outside of yourself and has nothing to do with emotion or personal bias. The observable phenomena for me was that my life completely changed as a result of that answer.

I have the computerized Bhagavad Gita and have read some of it also. No, I haven't read all of the books you listed in their entirety and I don't have to accept or reject them all as a whole - truth is truth - if the Bhagavad Gita says you should love and serve God and others to find lasting happiness, that's truth regardless of its context.

Men are fallible, I'll trust the answer I received from God over the attempts of men to put truth together. But over time, the truth usually wins out and the world ends up shperical - just like God made it. :) If the Bible said the world was a sphere and men proved scientifically that it was flat, I'll trust God and then wait for men to catch up.

I haven't done this experiment with other books specifically because I know that if I read those books, I can get the truth that's in them and if it's something I really am not sure about and want to know the truth, I'll perform the experiment and find out for myself.

Again, I believe the answer I got from God and work with men's answers until they match - the truth wins out eventually.

I would stick around and we could start another thread for your questions. I would read a book of your chosing and accept it or refute it, I will accept your result as a data point.
 
jimlintott - when I was an atheist, I couldn't help but wonder about life and living things and how that could be explained within the context of my atheism.

Good for you. That makes you just like pretty much every person who has ever lived. Did you stop when you were no longer atheist?

Scientifically, I know there is a how but I don't know how. Philosophically, I'm not convinced there is a why. Although for why I tend to believe that living things are just so much more efficient at creating entropy that the second law of thermodynamics predicts that life will exist. Life is probably plentiful all over the universe. So, sure, I think of these things as much or more than anyone. Not in the concept of atheism but in the concept of reality.
 
Holy cow you guys - slow down the posts, I can't keep up.

Ryokan - I will read the Dhammapada - I love buddists! I have studied shaolin chuan fa for 9 years now and even trained with some shaolin warrior monks a few years back! Awesome people! Yes, this is a different way to acquire knowledge and has some different rules than man's scientific method. That's ok. It works.

Hokulele - yeah - I can't see how I could have missed your question in this deluge! :-) This experiment will help people find the truth regardless of what book your reading in or what the source is. Period. The prayer is to your Heavenly Father (God) and I'm not sure if the faith in Christ is specific to the Book of Mormon or not - it doesn't specify.
 
I have the computerized Bhagavad Gita and have read some of it also. No, I haven't read all of the books you listed in their entirety and I don't have to accept or reject them all as a whole - truth is truth - if the Bhagavad Gita says you should love and serve God and others to find lasting happiness, that's truth regardless of its context.


Well, most Hindu texts list more than one god, so I am not sure how that would fit into your theology. Shintos believe everything has/is a god. Classical Taoism has no gods at all, but rather "right living". Confucianism tends to worship ancestors more than any god-concept.

Men are fallible, I'll trust the answer I received from God over the attempts of men to put truth together. But over time, the truth usually wins out and the world ends up shperical - just like God made it. :) If the Bible said the world was a sphere and men proved scientifically that it was flat, I'll trust God and then wait for men to catch up.


Too bad the bible states/implies a geocentric solar system. Not sure about the book of Mormon.

I haven't done this experiment with other books specifically because I know that if I read those books, I can get the truth that's in them and if it's something I really am not sure about and want to know the truth, I'll perform the experiment and find out for myself.


I would start with Black Elk Speaks. It is written by an Oglala Sioux, and can easily be found on the Internet.
 
Hokulele - out of curiosity do you have the reference for the geocentric solar system in the bible?

I'm done for today - I'll check back tomorrow. Please don't post too many posts before then. :-)
 
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Ryokan - I will read the Dhammapada - I love buddists! I have studied shaolin chuan fa for 9 years now and even trained with some shaolin warrior monks a few years back! Awesome people! Yes, this is a different way to acquire knowledge and has some different rules than man's scientific method. That's ok. It works.

Well, there are a lot of directions within Buddhism, and they're all quite different. Dhammapada is the main work of Theravada Buddhism, while Shaolin is Zen Buddhism. But both those directions have one thing in common that is at the heart of this experiment - they're both atheistic directions, where there are no god and you are your own saviour. In Zen it's through enlightenment through meditation, while in Theravada it's following the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path (where the Eightfold Path is actually Noble Truth #4.)

So I'll read the Book of Mormon and pray, and you'll read the Dhammapada (a much shorter book, I'll add) and try to follow the Eightfold Path?

That would be a good experiment, wouldn't it?
 

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