Party of Jesus Senator Guilty of Lewd Gay Conduct

Generally not, but then I am not one pretending that any actual references that people have posted to what various gestures mean don't exist.

I'VE NEVER ARGUED THAT SUCH GESTURES DON'T EXIST.

You have had multiple sources offered. You have ignored them pretending they don't exist and not commenting on them.
Proof please?

I must same I am surprised you are usually better than this.
Oh, right, I ask for proof and you create straw men and I'm the one to be derided?

I've never argued that such gestures don't exist.
  • Is it possible the officer is exagerating the gestures?
  • Is it possible the officer is mistaken?
Well how about the book from the 70's documenting the signals used then? I offered up a blog from someone referencing what he did in college in the 80's.
Could you post a quote from it? Do the signals match craigs? Swiping hand under stall?

You are ignoring any and all evidence as to what he was doing means.
NO. No I'm not and this is not fair.
 
In a court of law, that can be surmised from the ridiculous improbability of Craig engaging even in the gestures he admits taking and having it just happen to be a secret code for public sex.

I mean, does common sense enter into this evaluation at all?

Is it your position that Craig's claim that he innocently engaged in all the gestures to which he admits -- staring at the cop in the stall, tapping his feet, sticking his feet under the divider until it touched the officer's foot, running his hand under the divider (all of which comports with behavior that nobody but you disputes also happens to be code for soliciting public sex) -- gives you reasonable doubts as to whether he wanted to have public sex?

In criminal law circles, such people are colloquially known as the "speculative doubters" and are every defense lawyer's wet dream. They're the folks who acquit people caught on videotape because (and this is an actual phrase I heard a potential juror say) "With all the things they do on Jurassic Park, and the cops being so corrupt, no, your honor, I would not accept video evidence." (This juror was excused back to the jury pool, but had one of the lawyers not asked the question "Does anybody have a problem with videotaped evidence" -- a question hardly ever asked because it seems so stupid, and which the attorney only asked because he was 80 years old and was using a juror questionnaire from the 1970's -- he probably would have been on the jury and may have even acquitted the defendant).

By the way, Randfan, you accused me of accepting an anonymous source. The only source I've been relying in Craig's own words, and the Slate article, which is not anonymous at all and lists its sources. Nor is the cop anonymous. His name is Sergeant Dave Karsnia, who appears to have a spotless record and no bone to pick with Craig.
 
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Sure, and the burden of proof is on YOU to provide some evidence that men pick up other men at restrooms for sex at places other than the restroom. If you would provide some "gay" source that indeed men pick each other up in restrooms but have sex elsewhere and use those signals then I would be inclined to support your "not guilty" assertion (even though we both know he is guilty).
That's fair with one caveat.

I'm not trying to prove Craig innocent. I never have been. I'm trying to demonstrate that there is a possibility for other explanations. I don't know that if there was a trial that a defense expert would testify to such. Do you?
  • I'm not asking for anyone to conclude Craig innocent. I never have.
  • I've stated over and over Craig is likely guilty (based on a preponderance of the evidence.
  • I am concerned about this law and its potential for abuse.
 
In a court of law, that can be surmised from the ridiculous improbability of Craig engaging even in the gestures he admits taking and having it just happen to be a secret code for public sex.
Craig admitted to picking up toilet paper.

I mean, does common sense enter into this evaluation at all?
:mad:

ONE - MORE - TIME (I know you will ignore it but hell, why not).
  • In a tort (preponderance of the evidence and absent Craig's plea) I would find Craig guilty.
  • In a criminal trial I would find that the state has not made its case.
Does that at all register in your brain?

Is it your position that Craig's claim that he innocently engaged in all the gestures to which he admits...
I remember that he admitted to picking up a piece of paper.

-- staring at the cop in the stall, tapping his feet, sticking his feet under the divider until it touched the officer's foot, running his hand under the divider (all of which comports with behavior that nobody but you disputes also happens to be code for soliciting public sex) --
This is not how I understand what he said at all. Can you support this?

gives you reasonable doubts as to whether he wanted to have public sex?
First off, there is no such ting as reasonable doubts about innocence in American jurisprudence. That does not help in this case. However, I've been saying the same thing from the very start. How you cannot understand is simply beyond me.

ONE - MORE - TIME
  • In a tort (preponderance of the evidence and absent Craig's plea) I would find Craig guilty.
  • In a criminal trial I would find that the state has not made its case.
Does that answer your question?

In criminal law circles, such people are colloquially known as the "speculative doubters" and are every defense lawyer's wet dream. They're the folks who acquit people caught on videotape because (and this is an actual phrase I heard a potential juror say) "With all the things they do on Jurassic Park, and the cops being so corrupt, no, your honor, I would not accept video evidence." (This juror was excused back to the jury pool, but had one of the lawyers not asked the question "Does anybody have a problem with videotaped evidence" -- a question hardly ever asked because it seems so stupid, and which the attorney only asked because he was 80 years old and was using a juror questionnaire from the 1970's -- he probably would have been on the jury and may have even acquitted the defendant).
This has nothing whatsoever to do with my point.
 
That's fair with one caveat.

I'm not trying to prove Craig innocent. I never have been.

I know that. You are taking a juror's position and expressing doubt whether the gestures could have been misinterpreted. No problem there.
I'm trying to demonstrate that there is a possibility for other explanations. I don't know that if there was a trial that a defense expert would testify to such.
Again, no problem from me. But it is then your (or the defense's if you would rather) responsibility to arrive at logical alternate interpretations of those signals, ideally supported via testimony of some sort. Mere conjecture that the code is used to signal other Tri-lateralists that the aliens have arrived is insufficient evidence of this alternate theory IMO. But if you were to find a Tri-lateralist who testified that the tapping, shoe touching, stall peeping and hand waving were all part of the complex recognization ritual for another Tri-lateralist then as a juror I might consider voting "not guilty".

Cool?

Lurker
 
Folks,

I'm sorry, really sorry I lost my cool. That was not approriate. I had decided to get out of the discussion but felt dragged back in because my sincerity was attacked.

Let me assure all of you that I'm absolutely sincere. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. However, I think there is a very good case to make that I am not wrong because I'm not arguing that Craig is innocent. I'm concerned about the law and the potential for abuse. I think that this case raises serious and substantial questions about personal liberty.

I for one am not comfortable with simply accepting the testimony of the police at face value.

So, please, try and understand my position.

Again, I'm sorry. I'll try and take a break from the thread and clear my head.

Thanks everyone.
 
I know that. You are taking a juror's position and expressing doubt whether the gestures could have been misinterpreted. No problem there.

Again, no problem from me. But it is then your (or the defense's if you would rather) responsibility to arrive at logical alternate interpretations of those signals, ideally supported via testimony of some sort. Mere conjecture that the code is used to signal other Tri-lateralists that the aliens have arrived is insufficient evidence of this alternate theory IMO. But if you were to find a Tri-lateralist who testified that the tapping, shoe touching, stall peeping and hand waving were all part of the complex recognization ritual for another Tri-lateralist then as a juror I might consider voting "not guilty".

Cool?

Lurker
:)

Yes, cool.

Thanks Lurker.
 
Craig admitted to picking up toilet paper.

Damn he must have poor coordination to drop it so many times.
ONE - MORE - TIME
  • In a tort (preponderance of the evidence and absent Craig's plea) I would find Craig guilty.
  • In a criminal trial I would find that the state has not made its case.
Does that answer your question?

No, because you keep saying that there is no evidence that the signals that you accept he made because you repeatedly said you accept the police officers report could be anything other than what a great many people agree is the code for "I want to suck your penis in this bathroom"

You are clearly not happy with people stateing based on their experiance that these are the signals used, so what sort of evidence that these gestures mean what everyone else is claiming that they mean do you want?
 
Craig admitted to picking up toilet paper.
And running his hand along the divider as he supposedly did so.

Does that at all register in your brain?
Randfan, did you notice that I was specifically asking you about "reasonable doubt"? So, yes, I understand that you would confict up in a tort xcase under a "preponderance of evidence" standard, but that you would not convict him under a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.

This means that your position is that you think Craig probably solicited sex, but you have reasonable doubts as to whether he solicited sex. Right?

So my question was trying to figure out why you think your doubts are reasonable. Right now it seems it's because you don't accept that the hand signals alleged constitute solicitation of sex (and you seem to be the only person who has such doubts, notwithstanding the fact that we've referenced articles from independent verifiable sources saying the signals in question have been solicitations for sex for decades), and because you speculate the officer was lying, even though he has no reason to jeopardize his career over a misdemeanor arrest (I mean, a murder? Sure. A misdemeanor? Really?) to convict someone he never met and who possibly had the political clout to make his life hell.

Not all doubts are reasonable. I'm trying to figure out what your doubts are and whether theya re indeed reasonable.

This is not how I understand what he said at all. Can you support this?

From the transcript of Craig's post-arrest interview. From his own words (cop's words in italics)...
"I went in the bathroom"
"Your foot did touch mine on my side of the stall" to which Craig agrees "Okay"
"[Y]ou said our feet bumped. I believe they did."
"I reached down under the stall"
"I recall your palm was up" to which Craig agrees: "All right."
Craig tries to explain that he has a "wide stance", but wide enough to reach another man's foot on the other side of a stall? Really?

Craig tries to explain he was picking up paper, but also acknowledges his hand was palm-up as it passed the divider. Really?

This is not a credible story. It is rendered even less credible by the fact that his actions just happen to match the code for soliciting public sex.

First off, there is no such ting as reasonable doubts about innocence in American jurisprudence.
I asked you whether you had reasonable doubts about his guilt, not his innocence. The appropriate legal standard that a juror would be asked to apply in a criminal misdemeanor case is if you believe the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. You stated that, given your present knowledge, you would acquit Craig in a criminal trial. That necessarily means you have reasonable doubt that he committed the crime.

Does that answer your question?
No, because my question is a follow-up. Why would you acquit him? What are your doubts and why do you think them to be reasonable ones?

This has nothing whatsoever to do with my point.
I thought it was an amusing anecdote illustrating the difference between reasonable and unreasonable doubt.
 
I for one am not comfortable with simply accepting the testimony of the police at face value.
You keep saying that and we keep saying we're not taking it at "face value." Were I the prosecutor, I could take his admissions, and in conjunction with expert testimony about secret gay codes, using the folks who wrote Tearoom and the expert consulted by Slate, I could probably convict Craig without the officer's testimony (though the officer's testimony wouldn't hurt).

Again, I'm sorry. I'll try and take a break from the thread and clear my head.

Thanks everyone.

No problem. I look forward ot your return
 
One more before I log off (if I can keep myself from looking at anymore posts, damn ego). :)

Damn he must have poor coordination to drop it so many times.
Is there anything in Craig's confession about how many times he put his hand under the stall?

No, because you keep saying that there is no evidence that the signals that you accept he made because you repeatedly said you accept the police officers report...
This is not a fair reading of my position at all. At all.

I'll concede that in the many posts there could have been confusion and I apologize if I've contributed to that confusion. I'll try again to make my position clear.

Because of the nature of the offense and given the rules of evidence and given the facts of the case absent Craig's confession:

Tort (civil)
I find the officer's testimony as to the events more likely than Craig's and in a civil case would find against Craig.

Criminal (misdemeanor or felonious)
I would expect much, much more. I would want corroboration as to the signals and I would want to see the officer cross examined.

As it stands right now there is no question I would vote not guilty in a criminal trial. No question.

You are clearly not happy with people stateing based on their experiance that these are the signals used, so what sort of evidence that these gestures mean what everyone else is claiming that they mean do you want?
Something that is not fallacy. Ad populum is poor argument.
 
Well yesterday I didn't find much, but once I found a few leads and had more time today, I found a wealth of information. There are some really good blog sources on the net written by experts of all kinds and even this little deviancy is no exception. There's a lot here so I've highlighted a bit and the rest reinforces the conclusions which had formed in my "common knowledge" base. One thing I didn't know which disturbs me even more is the fact the majority of this particular kind of deviancy is carried out by married men. Those more openly gay go to more openly gay locations.

Zircon, you might find the police manual particularly interesting. If only police used their own expert sources for problems where the homework had been done and the experts had weighed in.
The same was true with the VA Tech shootings, the FBI had published a manual with recommendations to decrease school shootings which I would wager have still not been implemented in the majority of schools. And Tom Ridge's task force on the VA Tech shooting merely came out with the same recommendations as if the FBI had never written their report. It's unfortunately all too common for expert sources to be underutilized.

Beyond Homophobia A weblog about sexual orientation, prejudice, science and policy by Gregory Herek
September 3, 2007
Tearooms, Labels, and Double Standards

The events surrounding Senator Larry Craig’s resignation last week provide an opportunity for considering some social science insights about sex in public places, sexual orientation, denial, and prejudice.

The Tearoom Ritual: Solicitation vs. Entrapment

Laud Humphreys’ 1970 book, Tearoom Trade: Impersonal Sex In Public Places, provided the first systematic account of men who engage in sexual acts in public restrooms, colloquially known as “tearooms.” (The book was based on Humphreys’ doctoral dissertation in sociology at Washington University in St. Louis, and received the prestigious C. Wright Mills Award from the Society for the Study of Social Problems.)

As Laura Mac Donald noted in her Sunday New York Times Op-Ed piece, Humphreys’ research revealed that tearoom sex is a highly interactive ritual. The participants are just that — participants, who actively signal their interest with a variety of silent and subtle gestures that typically escape the awareness of unsuspecting restroom users. Participants are well aware of the danger of being arrested or attacked, and don’t try to force themselves on anyone. It’s a consensual ritual that excludes those who are unaware or unwilling.


All of which raises suspicions about the actions of both Sen. Craig and the undercover airport police sergeant who denied entrapping him. It’s difficult to imagine that anyone could inadvertently become involved in the tearoom ritual, or that a participant would persist in signaling another man without some indication of the latter’s willingness. As Laura Mac Donald commented in the Sunday Times, Humphreys’ findings

“suggest the implausibility not only of Senator Craig’s denial — that it was all a misunderstanding — but also of the policeman’s assertion that he was a passive participant. If the code was being followed, it is likely that both men would have to have been acting consciously for the signals to continue.”


“Gay” vs. “Homosexual”

If Sen. Craig was indeed a willing participant, is he gay? Homosexual? These words have been used interchangeably in speculation about Sen. Craig’s sexuality. Although they are often equated in popular parlance, they have somewhat different connotations.

Homosexual usually refers in a purely descriptive manner to same-sex desires and sexual behaviors, whereas gay refers to an individual’s social identity as a member of a larger culture of men and women with similar identities. Some writers have also distinguished between “a homosexual” (one who simply engages in same-sex activity or wishes to do so) and a gay person (one who embraces his or her sexuality as a defining feature of the self, and identifies with the larger community of gay and lesbian people).

Prof. Humphreys’ research showed that many men who engage in tearoom sex are heterosexually married (54% in his sample) and don’t identify as gay, or even homosexual.

Thus, absent any affirmation of the label from Sen. Craig, characterizing him as gay seems off the mark. His consistent antigay stances throughout his political career, coupled with his public self-identification as a heterosexual, are not consistent with being gay.

This doesn’t preclude him having same-sex desires or engaging in homosexual behavior. Maybe he is secretly “a homosexual” or maybe his private thoughts and behaviors qualify him as “a bisexual.” But neither status is a part of his public identity....

Relevant Reading: Public Sex/Gay Space, a book of essays reexamining Laud Humphreys’ Tearoom Trade was published in 1999 by the Columbia University Press (edited by William Leap).
[Reviews]this book brings much-needed light. It shows how little the reality of public sex conforms to the stereotype. It should be essential reading for journalists, politicians, and queers alike."
—Roger N. Lancaster, editor of Fear of a Queer Planet: Queer Politics and Social Theory

"Public Sex/Gay Space is an important collection. All the pieces raise honest, important, and uninhibited questions about the sex lives of many gay (and nongay) men. A colorful, insightful, and often original book."
—Roger N. Lancaster, author of Life is Hard

"...Given the limited corpus of scientific publications on fringe sexualities in general and public sex in particular, the essays in this volume are a welcome addition to the discourse on an understudied and poorly described phenomenon that is both ancient and widespread."
—Ralph Bolton, editor of The AIDS Pandemic

Male homosexual activity in public and semipublic locations is a central but seldom explored dimension of gay culture around the world. The majority of existing research emphasizes the impersonality of such erotic interaction and underscores the element of danger involved. While never denying the danger of anonymous public sex in the age of AIDS, the contributors to Public Sex/Gay Space go beyond narrow moralisms about the need to regulate unsafe sexual practices to discuss the significance of sex in public. William Leap has brought together contributions from such fields as anthropology, sociology, literary criticism, and history to reinvigorate the discussion on this issue, with twelve essays providing a more nuanced portrait of why public sexual activity is such an integral part of gay culture. - [/reviews] Contents

Introduction, by William L. Leap
1. Reclaiming the Importance of Laud Humphreys’s “Tearoom Trade: Impersonal Sex in Public Places”, by Peter M. Nardi
2. Tearoom Trade: Impersonal Sex in Public Places, by Laud Humphreys
3. A Highway Rest Area as a Socially Reproducible Site, by John Hollister
4. Speaking to the Gay Bathhouse: Communicating in Sexually Charged Spaces, by Ira Tattelman
5. Beauty and the Beach: Representing Fire Island, by David Bergman
6. Sex in “Private” Places: Gender Erotics, and Detachment in Two Urban Locales, by William L. Leap
7. Ethnographic Observations of Men Who Have Sex with Men in Public, by Michael C. Clatts
8. Self Size and Observable Sex, by Stephen O. Murray
9. Baths, Bushes, and Belonging: Public Sex and Gay Community in Pre-Stonewall Montreal, by Ross Higgins
10. Homo Sex in Hanoi? Sex the Public Sphere, and Public Sex, by Jacob Aronson
11. Private Acts Public Space: Defining the Boundaries in Nineteenth-Century Holland, by Theo van der Meer
12. “Living Well Is the Best Revenge”: Outing Privacy, and Psychoanalysis, by Christopher Lane
The contents are not online, but I can probably find more by looking up these authors.


Oh, wow, look at this blog:
The blog author describes herself as:
Karen Franklin, Ph.D....
I am a forensic psychologist who specializes in the evaluation of criminal defendants. I have also worked as a criminal investigator and legal affairs reporter. This blog is intended to share selected news and commentary of import to the fields of forensic psychology, criminology, and psychology-law.
IN the News: Forensic psychology, criminology and psychology-law
Much of the public debate surrounding Larry Craig's arrest centers on whether the senator is "gay." This completely misses the boat.

Back in the 1960s, a sociologist named Laud Humphreys conducted groundbreaking research into bathroom sex, or so-called "tearoom trade." He watched men engaging in sex in 19 public restrooms around St. Louis, Missouri. He surreptitiously noted their license plate numbers and later knocked on their doors in the guise of conducting an innocuous social sciences survey.

His findings, confirmed in more recent research, are that most of the men were married, religious, socially conservative, and heterosexually identified.

In other words, they were just like Senator Craig.

In fact, married men who engage in public sex are not only conservative; they often exhibit an exaggerated form of propriety. They drive late-model cars that are clean and polished, they maintain well-manicured lawns, they are impeccably groomed and dressed, and they attend church regularly. In short, they present themselves as proper, moral, and pious.


Although public sex is risky for these men, it allows them to maintain this veneer, which Humphreys labeled the "breastplate of righteousness."

As Humphreys' research demonstrated, public sex has been around a long time, and it is pervasive. Police have been stymied in their efforts to eradicate or even reduce it. In response to this longstanding dilemma, the U.S. Department of Justice's Office of Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS) has published an interesting manual on how to control such "illicit sexual activity in public places."

That blog led me to this:
Problem-Oriented Guides for Police
Problem-Specific Guides Series No. 33
Illicit Sexual Activity in Public Places
Primarily, such activity constitutes nuisance behavior and does not pose a serious threat to community safety. However, there are many reasons why the police should care about it.
• Public sexual activity can offend inadvertent witnesses.
• Public sexual activity can deter the legitimate use of public spaces.
• Public sexual activity may be related to the spread of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV/AIDS.
• Discarded used condoms, lubricant containers, and other paraphernalia are unattractive and potentially hazardous.
• Public sexual activity can attract a hostile audience, creating a risk of violent crime such as assault and/or robbery, as well as nonviolent crime such as blackmail.

• Certain types of public sexual activity (e.g., flashing, streaking) are associated with heavy drinking.

...Any patterns, or lack thereof, are consistent across studies of the various types of public sexual behaviors.2

Certain patterns (e.g., opposite-sex coupling at a "lovers' lane") have not been studied empirically, while others (e.g., same-sex contact in public restrooms) have been studied much more extensively. It is important to note that engaging in same-sex activity does not necessarily imply a homosexual identity; in fact, many men who have sex with men in public places are married or otherwise heterosexually involved, and do not consider themselves to be gay.3

When apprehended, many offenders may suffer substantial social repercussions, in addition to any criminal justice related consequences that may ensue. Threats to their marriages, friendships, jobs, reputations, and social standing often cause them to try to distract attention from their behaviors by showing exaggerated degrees of respectability, such as strong ties to the religious community or passionate condemnation of homosexuality.4

The larger the community's moral objections to public sexual activity mean that participants have much to lose if they are discovered.
...
Public restrooms.
While anecdotal evidence suggests that opposite-sex couples sometimes engage in sexual activity in public restrooms, the majority of research and public concern has focused on same-sex activity at such sites. Public restrooms so employed are often called "tearooms," and the behavior itself is sometimes called "cottaging." Restrooms in public parks, shopping malls, department stores, train and bus stations, and gyms are popular locations for such activity. They are usually easily accessible, their structural features afford some privacy, and their layouts provide an opportunity to spot potential witnesses
.9

For example, most activity takes place in a stall as far away from the restroom door as possible. If someone enters the restroom, the
participants typically stop the activity.10 Selected restrooms are usually isolated and rarely used by those in the area for legitimate purposes (e.g., shopping). This very pretext allows participants to remain in the restroom for some time without seeming suspicious.11

In contrast to gay bars or sex clubs, public restrooms are neutral places, and one's presence there does not automatically indicate a homosexual identity.12
...
Truck stops and highway rest areas.
Truck stops and highway rest areas are also popular locations for same sex
activity.† They are easily accessible by vehicle, and provide a number of legitimate reasons for people's presence.13 The activity itself may take place in a vehicle, a restroom, or a secluded outdoor area. As with those who engage in sexual activity in public restrooms, those who do so at truck stops or rest areas generally don't want to be detected.14

...A lack of privacy may also be the reason for male sexual activity in public restrooms. In particular, men with heterosexual identities may want to conceal their behavior from significant others. Their heterosexual identities also deter them from using other, less-public venues such as gay bars or sex clubs.20 Some homosexual men also lack the freedom to pursue same-sex partners privately due to family or peer disapproval.21 A community's condemnation of homosexuality may drive the behavior to remote, although public, locations, particularly among those exploring their sexuality and not yet connected to the gay community.22

Public sexual activity is not always simply a solution for those lacking a private alternative. Those who engage in "dogging" want strangers to watch them. Having an audience heightens their pleasure, and they may feel validated by others' wanting to watch and enjoy their "performance."23 For others, the risk of being caught engaging in public sexual activity serves as an aphrodisiac and increases their overall pleasure.24

Sexual activity in "tearooms," parks, rest areas, and truck stops is usually impersonal and anonymous, and does not lead to complicated entanglements involving commitments, obligations, or expectations from either party.25 Those dissatisfied with their sex lives with their partners may consider engaging in anonymous and impersonal sexual activity as less problematic than having an affair.26 And there's no need to solicit a prostitute, as the sex is free.27 Finally, those engaging in anonymous sexual activity generally needn't worry about assessments of their physical attractiveness or social class, judgments often made in formal dating situations.28

With the advent of the Internet, the practice of "dogging" has become more widespread. Those who want to be observed engaging in sexual activity use Internet chat rooms to provide potential audiences with dates, times, and locations.31 People also use chat rooms to offer tips to those interested in watching or participating in public sexual encounters. For example, the patterned use of parked vehicles' turn signals, interior lights, and window openings can serve as signals to interested parties.

Men seeking anonymous sexual contact with men in public restrooms must adhere to a highly structured and sequential pattern of interaction.32 These "scripts" generally involve eye contact, movement, and position in the restroom, and very rarely include any verbal exchange.33 The specific patterns differ, but are just as compulsory, in other settings such as truck stops and rest areas.34 Legitimate park or restroom users may be
concerned about being sexually propositioned by other men. However, given the complexity of the behavioral scripts guiding these transactions, mistaken propositions are unlikely.
35

...
HIV/AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases.
Men patronizing public sex locations have long been identified as a population at increased risk of contracting HIV/AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases. Historically, there have been three main risk reduction strategies: 1) openly discussing one's sexual history, 2) limiting one's number of sexual partners, and 3) practicing "safe sex."

Clearly, the first two are at odds with regularly having anonymous sex.38 Some suggest that heterosexually identified men who engage in same-sex public activity may deny their risk of HIV exposure and disregard important precautions.39 Because these men are not in the traditional target populations for prevention and education efforts, their knowledge of safe-sex practices has been questioned. Yet research has found that men who participate in sexual activity in public restrooms tend to be highly knowledgeable about HIV and its transmission.40

Further, whether participants practice safe sex appears to depend more on the situational dynamics and participants' characteristics than on the location's being public.41 Nevertheless, outreach and education efforts continue to target this population to minimize the overall public health risk.



For a good laugh, look at this onioneske cartoon.
 
I have done it many, many times on this forum. If I'm wrong I will say so....
Perhaps, but you have an ego problem saying I was right. There are a couple of people on this board, you included, who so dislike my political positions they continually reply to my posts as if I made frequent claims which were not well supported. But I go to great lengths to stick to the science and the evidence. And I have done so here.
 
skeptigirl, as an aside, you will note that you once accused me of being a poster who would never admit you were right. Please note that I agree with you here. Please don't accuse me of such bullheadedness in the future. Thanks in advance.
 
skeptigirl, as an aside, you will note that you once accused me of being a poster who would never admit you were right. Please note that I agree with you here. Please don't accuse me of such bullheadedness in the future. Thanks in advance.
None of us like to admit we are wrong, marksman. We are all bullheaded to some degree, it is part of the culture and/or simply human nature, I don't know which but I suspect the latter.

You did say here you just hate to agree with me, didn't you? I think for those of us who post more political comments as opposed to comments which can be more readily verified, it can be very frustrating to try to discuss something with a person you perceive is not looking at the evidence objectively. Of course one always has to ask when concluding another is less than objective, "is it really their tunnel vision, or is it mine?" I ask but the answer is almost always, "theirs". That may sound foolish but the reason I say that is because I am a fanatically evidence based person.

I don't recall the thread you are referring to so I don't know if I was speaking of a specific issue or making the more general claim you recall it was. I don't have you pegged in my head as someone who has dismissed my posts with ad homs and automatic replies of "you don't know what you are talking about" despite the evidence I supported my position with.

There are a number of 'men'** on this board who have done that and they have teamed up to pat each other on the proverbial back as if that somehow made their ad homs and lack of substance in their positions more credible. Darth Rotor called me a skeptic bimbo the first encounter I recall him from and Rand and Pardalis both thought that was clever. Ha ha! (It was in the thread on the World Can't Wait antiwar protest.)

When the debate turns to ad homs and argument by majority vote rather than evidence, I do get testy. Show me the evidence and have a professional level discussion and I am open to alternative positions. Toss out demeaning sexual slurs like skeptic bimbo and try to argue by intimidation (three against one) and I may suggest you aren't able to admit to learning something new.

I haven't put DR or Rand or Pardalis on ignore because they do have reasonable things to say when they aren't stereotyping my posts based on an erroneous impression they made in the past. You are simply looking at the evidence in this case and recognizing it is the evidence that matters, not my opinion or my interpretation of it. Once people do that, then the evidence is either convincing or it isn't. When you color the evidence with the person presenting it, then you are more likely to deny the evidence is convincing when it just might be.

**I say men but on another forum I frequent there is at least one woman who joins in with a similar somewhat macho attitude. Skeptic bimbo is clearly a sexist ad hom.
 
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Perhaps, but you have an ego problem saying I was right.
Perhaps but not nearly as much as you. I've never known you to admit that you were wrong.

There are a couple of people on this board, you included, who so dislike my political positions they continually reply to my posts as if I made frequent claims which were not well supported.
This isn't true. A number of people who agree with your political positions have taken you to task for poor logic and reasoning.

I'll confess it's been awhile.

But I go to great lengths to stick to the science and the evidence. And I have done so here.
I'm sure you think you do.

What I have resented about you skeptigirl is that you are a partisan. You've never demonstrated a willingness to critisize or look at individuals who share your ideology in a critical way.

It's easy to be a skeptic when it comes to something you disagree with. Everyone is a skeptic about something. Can you be skpetical when it comes to things that might otherwise fit your world view?

{inapropriate comments snipped}

I'm having one of those weeks folks.
 
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So how do you ever establish the meaning of anything social?
We can derive statistics about what people believe and how people interact with other people.

Such statistics are typically gathered by social scientists. "Hey dude, most people here disagree with you" isn't the same. Can you see the difference.

If you provided me statistics compiled by an expert I would take those into consideration and likely accept provisionally.

I'll go one further, if a few people on this forum told me that they had seen expert testimony that these specific signs were indicative of Craig's intent I would be swayed to think it more likely. Of course it depends on the posters.

Let me hasten to add. From an evidentially POV.

Tort (civil) the guy is guilty.
Criminal, case not made (I hold that provisionally).
 
We can derive statistics about what people believe and how people interact with other people.

Such statistics are typically gathered by social scientists. "Hey dude, most people here disagree with you" isn't the same. Can you see the difference.

If you provided me statistics compiled by an expert I would take those into consideration and likely accept provisionally.

So you don't trust dictionaries and language then either? Both this and dictionaries are based on usage, as reported by individuals or as used by individuals.

So this is no different than looking in the OED(which must have little value then as a source of what words mean, as it is not formally measured by social scientists)

I just don't see how this is any different from any other form of communication.
 

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