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Tags Anita Ikonen

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Old 13th January 2009, 09:30 PM   #1441
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
Let me guess.. It has something to do with vibrational resonance ...
Right now, I'd like to shake her until her ears start ringing...THAT would be vibrational resonance...
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Old 13th January 2009, 09:37 PM   #1442
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Originally Posted by TheSkepticCanuck View Post
Or even funnier, a convincing looking transvestite or transsexual, as he/she wouldn't even have the necessary internal equipment to get pregnant, and then find out what VfF sees. I might be tough to find one that would be impervious to cold reading, but it could be entertaining none the less.


Believe it or not, we were there in mid December.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...82#post4271182
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Old 13th January 2009, 09:42 PM   #1443
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Originally Posted by TheSkepticCanuck View Post
No offence was taken. Was that on her web site? I don't recall seeing that on this or the moderated thread, and I have read both in their entirety.
I've attached the IIG protocol in PDF form to this post. It's in this thread, but you gotta hunt for it. BTW, based on the IIG stuff I found on the web, she was doing most of the stalling (surprise). Last May they said, "We will contact Anita Ikonen via telephone, and make one last attempt to design a testing concept."

Quote:
Indeed. Here we are. No further ahead with an actual testable claim after more than 1400 postings. At least it has been entertaining, and quite educational.
I can't wait to buy the Vision From Feeling lunchbox!
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File Type: pdf Ikonen.pdf (66.1 KB, 23 views)
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Old 13th January 2009, 09:48 PM   #1444
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
I still don't understand why, if she can see inside people, she needs to see the outside.

Let me guess.. It has something to do with vibrational resonance ...


From Post #10

Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling View Post

It seems that I need to look at the objects that I am viewing, even if only for a quick glance, possibly in order to know where their location is. Note however that most of the information I obtain is not derived from what I saw by looking at the objects in question. The information is most often too small, or hidden behind or beneath something that obscures it from view, as well as having no externally detectable signals.

It seems a bit like using echo location to detect a target before zooming in with the x-ray vision. Maybe VfF is a bat from Krypton.
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Last edited by Akhenaten; 13th January 2009 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 13th January 2009, 09:53 PM   #1445
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Hell, I can draw unborn babies in great detail. Have you ever seen the results from an ultra-sound? Just get a fuzzy picture of Winston Churchill, trace, and orient as you wish. Voila!
Actually, those 3D ultrasounds are pretty cool. Check this out (not my kid, but it's on Flickr, so I figure it's okay).


And don't forget that 3D ultrasounds are based on vibrational information.It's right up her alley.

Quote:
I predict VfF will claim that she can determine gender completely accurately in roughly half of the women she scans.
Have you learned nothing? She will not be wrong at all. Of course, she won't say the gender if she can't read it. When she does, it won't be from cold reading. I mean, there's no way a prospective parent would use "he" or "she" while talking to her. Besides, how could she know that "Steven" is a boy's name? They don't have that name in Sweden.
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Old 13th January 2009, 10:04 PM   #1446
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"I can't wait to buy the Vision From Feeling lunchbox! "

I'm disappointed I thought that file attachent was going to be a picture of a funny lunchbox
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Old 13th January 2009, 10:12 PM   #1447
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Originally Posted by UncaYimmy View Post
Actually, those 3D ultrasounds are pretty cool. Check this out (not my kid, but it's on Flickr, so I figure it's okay).
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2340/...877d364b0a.jpg

And don't forget that 3D ultrasounds are based on vibrational information.It's right up her alley.





I rest my case.



Quote:
Have you learned nothing? She will not be wrong at all. Of course, she won't say the gender if she can't read it. When she does, it won't be from cold reading. I mean, there's no way a prospective parent would use "he" or "she" while talking to her. Besides, how could she know that "Steven" is a boy's name? They don't have that name in Sweden.

Well, I was trying to imply that she will have an out for the ones she doesn't want to read, but I like yours better.
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Old 13th January 2009, 10:15 PM   #1448
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
I'm still laughing as I type this. That was freaking hilarious! They should frame that and put it up in every OB-GYN office. I never knew!
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Old 13th January 2009, 10:30 PM   #1449
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Originally Posted by desertgal View Post
I can't understand why. With the exception of UncaYimmy's study protocol, it seems like the only purpose the JREF serves for Anita is some sort of self absorbed blog/whipping boy/mysterious testing ground.
One other thing came out of it, which we haven't touched (pounced) on yet. She actually conducted her survey at the mall. She was strangely quiet about it. The only thing we know is that she didn't detect any vasectomies or breast implants. Beyond that she'll post the results "eventually."

I believe she really did it. I also believe that she found that she really couldn't read squat. I mean, this is this same woman who was all excited that she guessed that her friend had to pee. If she had found something worth noting, we would have heard about it.

It could be coincidence, but I recall a definite change in attitude in Anita recently. She was much more edgy. She called me rude and told me she resented certain remarks. More frowny faces appeared including the dreaded "triplet" of frowny faces. She did more lashing out than she ever did before.

Now, that *could* be because the discussion just went that direction. However, if you go back you can see a definite uptick in aggression starting January 3rd, the day after she did her mall study.

But that's just a minor point. The key here is that for the first time every she actually tried to figure out what she could see. Apparently, it wasn't diddly squat.

This, too, is puzzling. Why even mention it at all? It's almost like she wanted to get challenged on it. And she had to know that we would all give a collective, "No kidding?" when she told us that vasectomies and breast implants were off the table.
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Old 13th January 2009, 10:46 PM   #1450
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Do you folks recall Anita getting on my case about allegedly ignoring her PM requests to chat with her on Facebook? I got three in one night and saw her Facebook status read, "Waiting for UncaYimmy to show up" or some such nonsense. Ostensibly this was to help her develop her study protocol, which was separate from her survey.

I replied to her PMs and said that I was sorry I missed her. I gave her my e-mail address and told her to send any questions she had the following morning and that I would answer them ASAP. I didn't get any questions.

When we did chat the next day, she didn't ask me anything about the study. I asked her if there was anything she need to ask me about it, but she deftly changed the subject. I can't even recall how she did it. If you think you get a Wall o' Words here, try instant messaging with her.

Looks like more posturing and manipulation to me.
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Old 13th January 2009, 10:57 PM   #1451
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Gah. Now I feel like I am starting to read too much into the posts on this thread (as well as in the Moderated thread). Am I the only one to feel like there is a subtle misogyny going on at times? This jumped out at me when VfF believed Ashles was female.
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Old 13th January 2009, 11:56 PM   #1452
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Gah. Now I feel like I am starting to read too much into the posts on this thread (as well as in the Moderated thread). Am I the only one to feel like there is a subtle misogyny going on at times? This jumped out at me when VfF believed Ashles was female.
In my "cold reading" of Anita in one of our chats, I "sensed" that she did not have any close female friends but that she had several close male friends. She told me I was right.

Why do you think I "sensed" that? Vibrational Information?
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Old 14th January 2009, 04:18 AM   #1453
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Originally Posted by Jonquill View Post
How about an unborn baby gender test then, what could be simpler than that?
I'll predict the sex for $100, if I'm wrong, you can have your money back!
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Old 14th January 2009, 04:23 AM   #1454
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I found this amusing: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7827761.stm

I've no idea about Anita's coffee intake, but it does mention students (and is careful to point out that correlation !necessarily= causation)

Edit:hm, can anyone else see a plant in that coffee picture? I didn't notice it until I'd had my espresso -- case proved!
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Last edited by nathan; 14th January 2009 at 04:24 AM.
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Old 14th January 2009, 04:32 AM   #1455
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Well, for what it's worth, I put the envelope in the mail Monday, with the five common medicines, each crushed and colored reddish green with food coloring and in a separate numbered ziplock bag, along with a list of the medicines. The clerk said it would take two-three days officially to get there, but unofficially the mail is sometimes slow between here and the Carolinas so allow another couple days. I didn't include any uncrushed samples.
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Old 14th January 2009, 04:52 AM   #1456
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Originally Posted by UncaYimmy View Post
One other thing came out of it, which we haven't touched (pounced) on yet. She actually conducted her survey at the mall. She was strangely quiet about it. The only thing we know is that she didn't detect any vasectomies or breast implants. Beyond that she'll post the results "eventually."

I believe she really did it. I also believe that she found that she really couldn't read squat. I mean, this is this same woman who was all excited that she guessed that her friend had to pee. If she had found something worth noting, we would have heard about it.

It could be coincidence, but I recall a definite change in attitude in Anita recently. She was much more edgy. She called me rude and told me she resented certain remarks. More frowny faces appeared including the dreaded "triplet" of frowny faces. She did more lashing out than she ever did before.

Now, that *could* be because the discussion just went that direction. However, if you go back you can see a definite uptick in aggression starting January 3rd, the day after she did her mall study.

But that's just a minor point. The key here is that for the first time every she actually tried to figure out what she could see. Apparently, it wasn't diddly squat.

This, too, is puzzling. Why even mention it at all? It's almost like she wanted to get challenged on it. And she had to know that we would all give a collective, "No kidding?" when she told us that vasectomies and breast implants were off the table.
Yes, I noticed that, too. I think she's starting to realize what a fool she's making of herself. Up-thread somewhere (after Jan. 3, I think) she wrote something along the lines of - 'And if it is cold reading, I'm amazingly good at it!', like she's beginning to actually believe that it's a possibility. There may be some hope, yet.

But, I'm afraid she has so much ego invested in this that she just can't let it go. Over ten years of 'sooper powers', down the drain.
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Old 14th January 2009, 05:15 AM   #1457
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
I still don't understand why, if she can see inside people, she needs to see the outside.

Let me guess.. It has something to do with vibrational resonance ...
If by "vibrational" you mean "wiggling", then yes.
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Old 14th January 2009, 07:15 AM   #1458
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Originally Posted by Jonquill View Post
On her body art page she says "Expecting mothers, I can draw your unborn babies? I see unborn babies in great detail. "

How about an unborn baby gender test then, what could be simpler than that?

http://visionfromfeeling.com/bodyart.html
Hmm... I guess for me, at least, all doubt is gone. This person is looking to get a foothold in the woo economy. I think that's been his/her intent all along. Color me underwhelmed.

Oh, did you get:
Quote:
"Of course I can not guarantee that my impressions represent real tissue, it hasn't been "scientifically proven yet", but it represents the images that I see. "
?

Oh boy!


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Old 14th January 2009, 07:19 AM   #1459
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Originally Posted by UncaYimmy View Post
Should I register StopVisionFromFeeling.com, NoVisionFromFeeling.com, or HelpVisionFromFeeling.com?

Given the penchant for moving goalposts, perhaps it ought to be revisionfromfeeling.com


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Old 14th January 2009, 07:36 AM   #1460
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Originally Posted by Moochie View Post
Hmm... I guess for me, at least, all doubt is gone. This person is looking to get a foothold in the woo economy. I think that's been his/her intent all along. Color me underwhelmed.
I agree.

WRT the "art work"...I wonder how accurate it is. I mean...she wants to draw unborn infants yet her hand looks like it belongs to Skeletor.
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Old 14th January 2009, 07:49 AM   #1461
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Originally Posted by moochie View Post
given the penchant for moving goalposts, perhaps it ought to be revisionfromfeeling.com
Beautiful!
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Old 14th January 2009, 07:53 AM   #1462
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Originally Posted by Locknar View Post
I agree.

WRT the "art work"...I wonder how accurate it is. I mean...she wants to draw unborn infants yet her hand looks like it belongs to Skeletor.


I think there's probably enough artwork out there from which to trace/draw bits and claim them as one's own work.

In a very real way, I'm sad that this saga is drawing to its inevitable close. It's been a heck of a lot of fun and mostly good humor. My thanks to UncaYimmy, desertgal, Akhenaten, Ashles, Cuddles, and the numerous others who have contributed. And last but not least, "Anita," without whom this show would not have been possible.


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Old 14th January 2009, 08:06 AM   #1463
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Originally Posted by Moochie View Post
Given the penchant for moving goalposts, perhaps it ought to be revisionfromfeeling.com

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Old 14th January 2009, 09:24 AM   #1464
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
I'm probably doing it the long way, but it works. Remembering every poster's screen name and membership number and inserting them manually where appropriate works too, but that would make my brain hurt.
As already noted, the number is the post's number, not the poster's, so memorisation wouldn't really help. The easiest way to do this is to simply copy and paste the bit you want to quote and put [quote][/quote] tags around it. You won't get the link, but since the quote you're nesting it in will already have that, it's not really a problem. If you want the poster's name, you can simply put their name in the tag - [quote=Cuddles] - and it will show, again without the link.

Originally Posted by TheSkepticCanuck View Post
I find it interesting that the phrase [BOLD]scientifically proven yet[/BOLD] is in quotes, as though that is an unimportant little detail that the reader / potential customer shouldn't need to worry about. I definitely get an impression of how much importance she puts on the testing of her claim, and it is not a good impression.
This rather reminds me of this thread. I think the accusation of lying is going a bit far, but there does seem to be a common theme with woos of all varieties that their claims of belief are very much at odds with their actual actions. That thread focuses specifically on Christians who, for example, say they believe the bible is the word of god, but have apparently never actually bothered to read it. This is in no way restricted to the religious though. One just has to have a quick look through the Million Dollar Challenge section to see how little effort people are willing to put into winning a million dollars, despite the fact that it could all easily be sorted out in a few evenings over a couple of months. Or look at how many people wax lyrical about homeopathy, acupuncture and so on, but head straight to their GP for some antibiotics as soon as they feel slightly ill.

If you genuinely believe you have access to the word of god, why would you not read it*? If you genuinely believe heaven is such a great place, why would you be unhappy when people die, or be scared of dying yourself? If you genuinely believe you can find hidden gold or oil or whatever, how could you not be rich**? If you genuinely believe you've invented a perpetual motion machine, why would you not become the richest person in the world? If you genuinely believe homeopathy works, why would you ever go to a real doctor? If you genuinely believe that you can see atomic structures, why would you spend your time drawing pictures of Churchill? If you genuinely believe you can win a million dollars for an hour's work, why would you give everything else in your life higher priority, often to the point of dropping out altogether because you don't have enough time?

VisionFromFeeling is no different from millions of other people who say they believe something, but who act in a way entirely at odds with the claimed belief. However, given how common this phenomenon is, it seems pretty clear that they can't possibly all be lying about it. To me, this appears to stem from the "I want to believe" phenomenon. There does seem to be something about people that is hardwired to want belief, no matter what that belief is in. People latch onto something, anything, to believe in, but rarely think through what it would actually mean to really believe it. They aren't lying about believing, but what they actually believe in is the belief itself. They don't believe, but they do believe that they believe.

This is why Anita appears to care so little for real testing. She believes she has an ability. Exactly what that ability is is largely irrelevant, so no amount of science and testing will make any difference. Unfortunately this leaves her in something of a catch 22. Unlike religious beliefs, hers is supposedly based in science, and should therefore be amenable to testing. However, if it is actually tested, it fails. Anita has claimed that she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, and she is entirely correct, although she got the context wrong. If she gets tested and fails, her belief is incorrect. If she doesn't get tested, her belief is still incorrect. I think this is why we often see such cognitive dissonance in paranormal claimants that we don't (as much) in religious people, since religious claims are usually specifically made to be unscientific (perhaps "ascientific" might be a better word) and don't face this problem.

OK, this would probably be better taken to a different thread, but I think the "sensible" discussion has pretty much run its course.



* Note that I'm in no way implying this is representative of all Christians, or any other religion, but there are certainly some people who behave this way.
** Yes, I know they all claim that they can't use their powers for profit. Instead of "rich", feel free to insert anything positive along the lines of helping starving children or saving Wales or whatever.
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Old 14th January 2009, 09:46 AM   #1465
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
OK, this would probably be better taken to a different thread, but I think the "sensible" discussion has pretty much run its course.
I've started a new thread to discuss the details of her study or survey.

The IIG test looks like it won't happen and any theoretical analysis of her 'ability' is now secret, so I think that is currently the only area where she is still discussing protocols and specifics.

Vision From Feeling - The Study and Survey
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Old 14th January 2009, 09:49 AM   #1466
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Yes, I know they all claim that they can't use their powers for profit. Instead of "rich", feel free to insert anything positive along the lines of helping starving children or saving Wales or whatever.
I know it got left off a map of the EU, but I don't think it's in urgent need of saving.

I don't see anything in Anita's claims that cannot be more simply explained by a vivid imagination and some cold/warm/hot reading. I can see that as she has built up this picture of herself as special, it will be very hard for her to accept that there is no unique ability; her identity is bound up with her belief in it.
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Old 14th January 2009, 09:59 AM   #1467
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
...
This rather reminds me of this thread. I think the accusation of lying is going a bit far, but there does seem to be a common theme with woos of all varieties that their claims of belief are very much at odds with their actual actions. That thread focuses specifically on Christians who, for example, say they believe the bible is the word of god, but have apparently never actually bothered to read it. This is in no way restricted to the religious though. One just has to have a quick look through the Million Dollar Challenge section to see how little effort people are willing to put into winning a million dollars, despite the fact that it could all easily be sorted out in a few evenings over a couple of months. Or look at how many people wax lyrical about homeopathy, acupuncture and so on, but head straight to their GP for some antibiotics as soon as they feel slightly ill.

If you genuinely believe you have access to the word of god, why would you not read it*? If you genuinely believe heaven is such a great place, why would you be unhappy when people die, or be scared of dying yourself? If you genuinely believe you can find hidden gold or oil or whatever, how could you not be rich**? If you genuinely believe you've invented a perpetual motion machine, why would you not become the richest person in the world? If you genuinely believe homeopathy works, why would you ever go to a real doctor? If you genuinely believe that you can see atomic structures, why would you spend your time drawing pictures of Churchill? If you genuinely believe you can win a million dollars for an hour's work, why would you give everything else in your life higher priority, often to the point of dropping out altogether because you don't have enough time?

VisionFromFeeling is no different from millions of other people who say they believe something, but who act in a way entirely at odds with the claimed belief. However, given how common this phenomenon is, it seems pretty clear that they can't possibly all be lying about it. To me, this appears to stem from the "I want to believe" phenomenon. There does seem to be something about people that is hardwired to want belief, no matter what that belief is in. People latch onto something, anything, to believe in, but rarely think through what it would actually mean to really believe it. They aren't lying about believing, but what they actually believe in is the belief itself. They don't believe, but they do believe that they believe.

This is why Anita appears to care so little for real testing. She believes she has an ability. Exactly what that ability is is largely irrelevant, so no amount of science and testing will make any difference. Unfortunately this leaves her in something of a catch 22. Unlike religious beliefs, hers is supposedly based in science, and should therefore be amenable to testing. However, if it is actually tested, it fails. Anita has claimed that she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, and she is entirely correct, although she got the context wrong. If she gets tested and fails, her belief is incorrect. If she doesn't get tested, her belief is still incorrect. I think this is why we often see such cognitive dissonance in paranormal claimants that we don't (as much) in religious people, since religious claims are usually specifically made to be unscientific (perhaps "ascientific" might be a better word) and don't face this problem.

OK, this would probably be better taken to a different thread, but I think the "sensible" discussion has pretty much run its course.



* Note that I'm in no way implying this is representative of all Christians, or any other religion, but there are certainly some people who behave this way.
** Yes, I know they all claim that they can't use their powers for profit. Instead of "rich", feel free to insert anything positive along the lines of helping starving children or saving Wales or whatever.
well said, sir. I'd nominate, but it's the sensible thinking, not the language as such, that appeals to me.
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Old 14th January 2009, 11:15 AM   #1468
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Originally Posted by UncaYimmy View Post
One other thing came out of it, which we haven't touched (pounced) on yet. She actually conducted her survey at the mall. She was strangely quiet about it. The only thing we know is that she didn't detect any vasectomies or breast implants. Beyond that she'll post the results "eventually."

I believe she really did it. I also believe that she found that she really couldn't read squat. I mean, this is this same woman who was all excited that she guessed that her friend had to pee. If she had found something worth noting, we would have heard about it.
I agree. I have gone through this thread and found all her references to the survey in the last 11 days. I have detailed them all in the study thread
There are entirely devoid of detail. There are just promises it will be posted 'eventually' (eventually?) and that we shouldn't criticise or form conclusions around the survey until we have read the details of the survey. Which haven't been posted.
It's as though she wants the survey swept under the table, but she has ethics enough about this to refuse to lie about it. So she is delaying until we have forgotten about it, or she can come up with a way to spin the survey into something less negative.

My prediction is that she will turn out to have discovered something that negatively affects the ability (e.g. large numbers of people around her cause the ability to become unfocused and unstable, or something like that). This will have the dual benefit of explaining away the complete absence of results and also look like the survey was productive as it has taught her something new about the ability.

That's the beauty of Paranormal claims - there are no failures, only newly discovered restrictions on the ability.
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Old 14th January 2009, 11:35 AM   #1469
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Originally Posted by Ashles View Post
That's the beauty of Paranormal claims - there are no failures, only newly discovered restrictions on the ability.
Hope you don't mind me stealing that one

|
V
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That's the beauty of Paranormal claims - there are no failures, only newly discovered restrictions on the ability. Ashles
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Old 14th January 2009, 11:37 AM   #1470
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Couple of observations, and then I'm done:

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy View Post
Now, that *could* be because the discussion just went that direction. However, if you go back you can see a definite uptick in aggression starting January 3rd, the day after she did her mall study.
Very true, and she was noticeably obsequious a few times, when she wasn't being snarky. It was also after the survey when she claimed to definitely have synesthesia-even before you showed her the online test.

Originally Posted by Hokulele
Am I the only one to feel like there is a subtle misogyny going on at times?
I noticed that, too - she has a marked antipathy towards females. And I also noticed that most of her behind the scenes maneuvering via PM's was centered around the male posters. In fact, she didn't send that PM to Ashles until after he told her he was male.

Originally Posted by Old man
Yes, I noticed that, too. I think she's starting to realize what a fool she's making of herself. Up-thread somewhere (after Jan. 3, I think) she wrote something along the lines of - 'And if it is cold reading, I'm amazingly good at it!', like she's beginning to actually believe that it's a possibility. There may be some hope, yet.

But, I'm afraid she has so much ego invested in this that she just can't let it go. Over ten years of 'sooper powers', down the drain.
It was after the survey, and she said that, if it was cold reading, it was "brilliant" (of course!) cold reading, where she (paraphrasing) detected even the smallest of myriad details, etc.

In effect, she didn't let go of her sooper power - she just exchanged "paranormal ability" for synesthesia, and when she got called on that, to being able to cold read like no one ever has before.

Originally Posted by Agatha
I don't see anything in Anita's claims that cannot be more simply explained by a vivid imagination and some cold/warm/hot reading. I can see that as she has built up this picture of herself as special, it will be very hard for her to accept that there is no unique ability; her identity is bound up with her belief in it.
I agree, but I have to say, again, that I think this is more than just imagination-it is full fledged delusion. In that, I don't think she woke up one morning and decide to begin scamming everyone into thinking she could do this. I think she really believes she has a special ability, and that's why she's switching from seeing images of internal body structure to this super brilliant cold reading technique. She's got to be extraordinary.

But, I do agree with Moochie that one of her motivations (along with attention, etc) in coming here was to build up her claims so that she could take the show on the road. She simply backed off on stating that openly when she realized that skeptics don't cotton to that kind of thing. The "body art" is just the first step. (And, BTW, I think that sucks. Not the Skeletor hand - the offering to draw babies in the womb. Having a baby is a special thing -imagine the disappointment the mother will feel when the baby doesn't match the picture. That's pretty low.)

I'll sign off with saying that I still believe the woman needs help-delusional or not, all of this is pretty whacked, and if she won't get help, then she deserves the RSL treatment. UncaYimmy, if you are serious about building a website, I'd be happy to help in any way you might need.

This is the first time I have participated in debunking a claimant...sniff...I'm so proud. This is definitely one for the annals.

Last edited by desertgal; 14th January 2009 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 14th January 2009, 11:56 AM   #1471
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Originally Posted by desertgal View Post
I noticed that, too - she has a marked antipathy towards females. And I also noticed that most of her behind the scenes maneuvering via PM's was centered around the male posters. In fact, she didn't send that PM to Ashles until after he told her he was male.
To be fair the PMs were sent when she still thought I was female. (Although the second one was telling me off. )

I have also wondered at times if there was a slight degree of difference in her reaction to different genders, but, again in the interests of fairness, she did comment in an entirely complimentary manner on my post regarding Perception while she thought I was female.
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Old 14th January 2009, 11:58 AM   #1472
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Originally Posted by nathan View Post
Hope you don't mind me stealing that one
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Old 14th January 2009, 12:32 PM   #1473
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Here's a brief conversation from the CFIW thread where a member of the IIG chapter made a comment. With his permission I've copied here.

Quote:
Thanks Derek. Just wondering, are you here due to the Vision From Feeling thread we have going on? Anita mentions your group (if it's the same IIG chapter) and the test protocol she claims to be setting up with you. She also blames the lack of progress on the groups' dragging its heals.

I'm sure everyone would be interested in your comments.
Quote:
Hello Sasha.

Yes, we are the same IIG that is dealing with Anita Ikonen. Her complaint is not completely unjustified. Being an all-volunteer organization can sometimes drag things out longer than we would like, but the biggest issue has been nailing down exactly what she can, or cannot, detect. She has made some statements on the JREF Forum that are contradictory to some statements that she has made to us.

I am not on the JREF Forum as much as I really should be, but another one of the IIG members is and he has been put in charge of communicating with Anita directly so that we can move her application along more quickly.

I am on the IIG Steering Committee, but I am not directly involved in the Anita Ikonen testing protocol discussion. I have been more involved in UFO claims, specifically the Billy Meier Case.

Please visit our website at www.iigwest.org to see our status reports.

Thank you.

-Derek
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Old 14th January 2009, 01:00 PM   #1474
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Originally Posted by nathan View Post
Hope you don't mind me stealing that one
Ditto
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Old 14th January 2009, 04:03 PM   #1475
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Well . . .








I think the JREF and others were meant to be part of the advertising campaign. That will end well.
From Anita's Main Page:

"Follow my progress in having my perceptions scientifically tested and hopefully verified!
You can follow the discussion about this investigation on the JREF Forum at the following two discussions threads."

Looks like you were right.
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Old 14th January 2009, 04:24 PM   #1476
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Her perceptions have been verified alright.
I don't think anyone would argue with the fact that she has perceptions.
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Old 14th January 2009, 05:39 PM   #1477
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Believe it or not, we were there in mid December.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...82#post4271182
I remember reading that now. I must have subconsciously remembered it. I guess it wasn't as original as I thought. Either that, or great minds think alike.
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Old 14th January 2009, 05:53 PM   #1478
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Originally Posted by UncaYimmy View Post
I've attached the IIG protocol in PDF form to this post. It's in this thread, but you gotta hunt for it. BTW, based on the IIG stuff I found on the web, she was doing most of the stalling (surprise). Last May they said, "We will contact Anita Ikonen via telephone, and make one last attempt to design a testing concept."
Thanks for the PDF file! I can't wait to read it during the intermission of the hockey game I'm watching.

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy View Post
I can't wait to buy the Vision From Feeling lunchbox!
I'd certainly buy one! Save one for me!
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Old 14th January 2009, 10:54 PM   #1479
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Originally Posted by desertgal View Post
Very true, and she was noticeably obsequious a few times, when she wasn't being snarky. It was also after the survey when she claimed to definitely have synesthesia-even before you showed her the online test.
Obsequious? Did you get a Word a Day calendar for Christmas or something?

Quote:
I agree, but I have to say, again, that I think this is more than just imagination-it is full fledged delusion. In that, I don't think she woke up one morning and decide to begin scamming everyone into thinking she could do this. I think she really believes she has a special ability, and that's why she's switching from seeing images of internal body structure to this super brilliant cold reading technique. She's got to be extraordinary.
It's all kind of complex to explain. For example, I think there might have been hallucinations involved. But then again, what if she only convinced herself that she really felt a ghost push her or that she can hear these things? That's more of a delusion. Do people with delusions do that? I'm guessing so.

I have little doubt that she actually conjures up these images in her mind. And, quite frankly, I don't think that it's all that unusual. I asked her that question about "seeing" Labrador retriever in her mind for a specific reason. My ex-wife was a 4th grade school teacher. She asked that question each year. About 1/2 the kids each year actually visualized the dog. The other half simply knew what she meant and could describe the dog without having to actually create an image.

You're probably wondering why she would ask that. Long story long (ha!) we started dating in high school. One year she got me this puzzle game. It was a black plastic rectangle cut into various angled shapes. It came with drawings of shapes on cards and the "game" was to construct the given shape using the pieces.

I was always able to create the shapes, sometimes quickly, sometimes not. My wife, however, could get some very quickly but others she just couldn't get. Basically, if she didn't get it quickly, she didn't get it at all.

As we discussed it I explained how I did it. It was an intellectual process. I reasoned out where the pieces had to go. She, by contrast, simply visualized it. This concept had me stumped.

This led to a discussion of how we approach problems. Turns out she was a very visual learner. By contrast I could read a book or listen to a lecture and understand the concepts. Programming languages came easily to me. I can explain how the heart works mechanically whereas she had to visualize it first. It was quite the revelation.

So, I tried to visualize the individual shapes that made up the drawing. I can't explain how that process works, but after several tries I got the hang of it. Sure enough I could actually "see" imaginary lines depicting the individual shapes. In many cases this made solving the puzzles much faster.

So, where was I? Oh, yeh. I think Anita probably does create the images with her imagination. That's normal. Believing this is due to sensing vibrational information is where reality ends and the delusion starts.

It kind of begs the question as to whether the imagery came before the "impressions" or afterwards? Her first reading was apparently detecting pain in a relative's hand. That's not hard to deduce, but what if you're not aware of why you think that? You share the diagnosis, and you're right. You get praise and admiration. I wonder if she "saw" the areas of pain or just had an impression like she did with my photos. If it was the latter, I could see her filling in the gaps with her imagination and the rest is history.

I think it's the latter based on her story about the crystals. She read in a book about the things she should see. After a while she eventually became able to see the light and colors. I'm sure I could, too. But as I did with the puzzle cards, I would know it was my imagination.

Quote:
I'll sign off with saying that I still believe the woman needs help-delusional or not, all of this is pretty whacked, and if she won't get help, then she deserves the RSL treatment. UncaYimmy, if you are serious about building a website, I'd be happy to help in any way you might need.
I was mostly joking when I posted that, but now that she is looking to sell drawings of fetuses in the womb, I'm thinking something needs to be done, both for her sake and for others.

Quote:
This is the first time I have participated in debunking a claimant...sniff...I'm so proud. This is definitely one for the annals.
Heh. You said annals. Heh.
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Old 14th January 2009, 11:50 PM   #1480
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Originally Posted by UncaYimmy View Post
I'm still laughing as I type this. That was freaking hilarious! They should frame that and put it up in every OB-GYN office. I never knew!
True story: My sister's daughter was nicknamed "Winston" from about 1 month to 7 months of age, for exactly that reason. In fact, she was quite chubby, so the resemblance was uncanny!!

Chuckling, MK
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