Trojan
Muse
Open season. If they can't stand the heat, they can get out of the Truth Movement.
Call for Opinions -- Future Responses to the Truth Movement
- Thread starter R.Mackey
- Start date
Panoply_Prefect
Graduate Poster
I say continue, in a civil manner, othewise the next generation will consist only of people who actually think that to be true something has to
a) be published on the internet
b) agree with my preconcieved opinion
and that
a) if something can be labelled a "theory", that gives that
b) it is in fact of equal value of any other "theory", which in turn means
c) I can freely pick between these "theories" and the one I choose will be the valid one just because I want it to be.
This holds true to to 911-trutherism as well as creationism/ID and moonlanding hoaxters. It seems to me a postmodern idea of "truth" is spreading on internet forums where everything is equally true and where since you cant know anything for sure, everything goes. The only way to fight it is to keep showing the flaws.
This paired with the fact that truthers never ever remove anything from their homepages means that the effort is without end.
a) be published on the internet
b) agree with my preconcieved opinion
and that
a) if something can be labelled a "theory", that gives that
b) it is in fact of equal value of any other "theory", which in turn means
c) I can freely pick between these "theories" and the one I choose will be the valid one just because I want it to be.
This holds true to to 911-trutherism as well as creationism/ID and moonlanding hoaxters. It seems to me a postmodern idea of "truth" is spreading on internet forums where everything is equally true and where since you cant know anything for sure, everything goes. The only way to fight it is to keep showing the flaws.
This paired with the fact that truthers never ever remove anything from their homepages means that the effort is without end.
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Summary -- One Hundred Voters!
Thank you, one and all, for making my poll a success. As of this moment, exactly 100 different people contributed, with a total of 142 selections. The voting was open at all times, and choices were deliberately phrased to be somewhat vague, guidelines rather than distinct choices, with some minor overlap. Here are some findings from this experiment:
1. Consensus
Surprisingly, there is no consensus. Of the various choices floated, the two which gathered the most votes are almost opposite: Open Season was selected by 30% of respondents, narrowly edged out by the "Lone Ranger" selection, i.e. maintain a helpful attitude no matter what, with 36%. However, there is one element common to both of these choices, namely that both populations wish to keep engaged with the Truth Movement.
Other options were also popular, sometimes surprisingly so. The "Three Strikes" approach was favored by 25% of respondents, and the (definitely overlapping) choices to Ignore the Truth Movement in favor of discussion with others, or to Ignore entirely, garnered 14% and 10% respectively.
This should make it clear, once and for all, that there is no "Debunker Movement." These three basic choices in behavior all gathered approximately 1/3 of the responses, all basically identical within the margin of experimental error. Posters here seem to post according to their own personal feelings, with little sign of cohesion, and that's the way it should be.
2. Degree of Commitment
Another surprise from this poll is that a large majority of respondents indicated an interest in the more labor-intensive choices. As remarked above, both of the largest groups voted to keep engaged, but the converse is also true -- the "joke" entries collected almost no interest at all. Go Fight Bigfooters was selected by a mere 5%, as did the author's tongue-in-cheek suggestion to Infiltrate, and the idea to Pretend to Join the Truth Movement for the purpose of humiliating them out of it picked up a paltry 2%.
This was contrary to expectations. While all choices were floated in jest, some of them were actually considered reasonable by the author -- Bigfoot, in particular, seems to be much more popular than 9/11 Truth, has its own share of adherents, and there are plenty of opportunities for verbal combat right here on the JREF Forums. So, why not? One ridiculous theory is as good as another, right? Apparently not.
This finding is difficult to interpret but the author finds it somewhat disturbing. While we already know that people who still cling to the Truth Movement are highly invested in it and unlikely, perhaps even unable, to let go, the same theoretically should not be true of their opposition. This signal suggests that the "Debunkers," despite being totally unorganized and independent, have a great deal invested emotionally as well. If true, whether this is a problem depends on the individual, but it should be considered.
There is some corroboration in the relatively low volume of scattershot responses from any one individual, and in the small size of the "Planet X" decline-to-state choice. The author thanks respondents for answering frankly and not vandalizing the poll, but this is yet another sign that readers take the matter seriously.
3. Vanishing Influence of the Truth Movement
Among the 100 respondents, only three individuals were found who could even peripherally be associated with the Truth Movement itself. Of these three, only two answered the option created for them, "The Truth Movement is Right!" A fourth posted multiple times in this thread, but did not even answer the poll.
Even more fascinating are the collected responses of those individuals. Names are redacted, as the author already had all of the following on Ignore, so no particular course of action was needed for their cases:
This individual did select the "Truth Movement is Right!" option. The passage above seems genuine and sincere, and also very, very sad. Clearly he or she is proceeding under the profound assumption that he or she is right, and the entire scientific establishment of the world is fooling itself. The author despairs of reaching this individual, and only wishes him or her the best of care and the best of luck.
The others, in contrast, are purely combative:
No poll response was tendered. Not enough "fun," apparently.
This respondent voted as claimed. This post also strikes the author as sincere, but it is juvenile in the extreme. It also supports a suspicion the author voiced earlier, namely that the remaining Truthers don't actually have anything to say, but are merely spoiling for a fight. Well? Why give it to them?
4. Words versus Deeds
Another interesting contrast is the distribution of recommended actions compared to what actually happens at the JREF Forum. As noted above, the most popular option was the Lone Ranger option. But this is hardly ever practiced.
The author has tried this approach, with varying degrees of commitment, and found it to be extremely difficult. Here is one very old example, along with an entire thread conducted in such a fashion (and the post-mortem of that thread), and this series is perhaps the most restraint the author can muster even with the offending party restrained by active moderation. The author found these efforts to be disappointing, if not negligible, in effect. There are other posters here with a superb gift of courtesy and patience, but under no circumstances does this total 30% percent of discussion here, nor is there reason to believe it ever will.
Instead, most discussions fit into one of the other categories -- Open Season, to be sure, is well represented. The various Ignore options are potentially being exercised, primarily by those who now rarely visit this Forum at all.
Similarly, with the lone exception noted above, the very small Truth Movement contingent doesn't seem to follow its own charter, either. However, with a signal so small as to be almost invisible, detailed statistical analysis is not possible.
5. Recommendation
Given the surprises found in the poll data, the author can make no concrete recommendations to others. However, these data uncover or support a number of factors that may influence one's decision:
Disclaimer
All opinions are those of the author alone and do not represent those of anyone else, including the JREF, the JCOS, J.Crew, or J-Lo. All work performed with the author's own materials on the author's own time. No Truthers were harmed during this experiment. There is no such thing as Bigfoot, only Wookies.
Thank you, one and all, for making my poll a success. As of this moment, exactly 100 different people contributed, with a total of 142 selections. The voting was open at all times, and choices were deliberately phrased to be somewhat vague, guidelines rather than distinct choices, with some minor overlap. Here are some findings from this experiment:
1. Consensus
Surprisingly, there is no consensus. Of the various choices floated, the two which gathered the most votes are almost opposite: Open Season was selected by 30% of respondents, narrowly edged out by the "Lone Ranger" selection, i.e. maintain a helpful attitude no matter what, with 36%. However, there is one element common to both of these choices, namely that both populations wish to keep engaged with the Truth Movement.
Other options were also popular, sometimes surprisingly so. The "Three Strikes" approach was favored by 25% of respondents, and the (definitely overlapping) choices to Ignore the Truth Movement in favor of discussion with others, or to Ignore entirely, garnered 14% and 10% respectively.
This should make it clear, once and for all, that there is no "Debunker Movement." These three basic choices in behavior all gathered approximately 1/3 of the responses, all basically identical within the margin of experimental error. Posters here seem to post according to their own personal feelings, with little sign of cohesion, and that's the way it should be.
2. Degree of Commitment
Another surprise from this poll is that a large majority of respondents indicated an interest in the more labor-intensive choices. As remarked above, both of the largest groups voted to keep engaged, but the converse is also true -- the "joke" entries collected almost no interest at all. Go Fight Bigfooters was selected by a mere 5%, as did the author's tongue-in-cheek suggestion to Infiltrate, and the idea to Pretend to Join the Truth Movement for the purpose of humiliating them out of it picked up a paltry 2%.
This was contrary to expectations. While all choices were floated in jest, some of them were actually considered reasonable by the author -- Bigfoot, in particular, seems to be much more popular than 9/11 Truth, has its own share of adherents, and there are plenty of opportunities for verbal combat right here on the JREF Forums. So, why not? One ridiculous theory is as good as another, right? Apparently not.
This finding is difficult to interpret but the author finds it somewhat disturbing. While we already know that people who still cling to the Truth Movement are highly invested in it and unlikely, perhaps even unable, to let go, the same theoretically should not be true of their opposition. This signal suggests that the "Debunkers," despite being totally unorganized and independent, have a great deal invested emotionally as well. If true, whether this is a problem depends on the individual, but it should be considered.
There is some corroboration in the relatively low volume of scattershot responses from any one individual, and in the small size of the "Planet X" decline-to-state choice. The author thanks respondents for answering frankly and not vandalizing the poll, but this is yet another sign that readers take the matter seriously.
3. Vanishing Influence of the Truth Movement
Among the 100 respondents, only three individuals were found who could even peripherally be associated with the Truth Movement itself. Of these three, only two answered the option created for them, "The Truth Movement is Right!" A fourth posted multiple times in this thread, but did not even answer the poll.
Even more fascinating are the collected responses of those individuals. Names are redacted, as the author already had all of the following on Ignore, so no particular course of action was needed for their cases:
This individual did select the "Truth Movement is Right!" option. The passage above seems genuine and sincere, and also very, very sad. Clearly he or she is proceeding under the profound assumption that he or she is right, and the entire scientific establishment of the world is fooling itself. The author despairs of reaching this individual, and only wishes him or her the best of care and the best of luck.
The others, in contrast, are purely combative:
No poll response was tendered. Not enough "fun," apparently.
This respondent voted as claimed. This post also strikes the author as sincere, but it is juvenile in the extreme. It also supports a suspicion the author voiced earlier, namely that the remaining Truthers don't actually have anything to say, but are merely spoiling for a fight. Well? Why give it to them?
4. Words versus Deeds
Another interesting contrast is the distribution of recommended actions compared to what actually happens at the JREF Forum. As noted above, the most popular option was the Lone Ranger option. But this is hardly ever practiced.
The author has tried this approach, with varying degrees of commitment, and found it to be extremely difficult. Here is one very old example, along with an entire thread conducted in such a fashion (and the post-mortem of that thread), and this series is perhaps the most restraint the author can muster even with the offending party restrained by active moderation. The author found these efforts to be disappointing, if not negligible, in effect. There are other posters here with a superb gift of courtesy and patience, but under no circumstances does this total 30% percent of discussion here, nor is there reason to believe it ever will.
Instead, most discussions fit into one of the other categories -- Open Season, to be sure, is well represented. The various Ignore options are potentially being exercised, primarily by those who now rarely visit this Forum at all.
Similarly, with the lone exception noted above, the very small Truth Movement contingent doesn't seem to follow its own charter, either. However, with a signal so small as to be almost invisible, detailed statistical analysis is not possible.
5. Recommendation
Given the surprises found in the poll data, the author can make no concrete recommendations to others. However, these data uncover or support a number of factors that may influence one's decision:
- Nearly all posters in this subforum appear overly invested in this issue. There are no great revelations coming from the Truth Movement, and none forecast, so the author suggests that it is safe to lighten up a bit.
- If your aim is to humiliate or ridicule the Truth Movement, it appears that has already been discharged. A significant fraction, if not a majority, of those who remain actually enjoy this kind of treatment.
- A solid plurality hold polite and factual discussion in high regard. This type of behavior is under-represented here, and you should consider contributing in such a fashion.
Disclaimer
All opinions are those of the author alone and do not represent those of anyone else, including the JREF, the JCOS, J.Crew, or J-Lo. All work performed with the author's own materials on the author's own time. No Truthers were harmed during this experiment. There is no such thing as Bigfoot, only Wookies.
But as for me...
Dear 9/11 Truth Movement Supporter:
If you have been referred to this message, it simply means that unless I invite such discussion, I categorically refuse to discuss items pertaining to your particular belief with you. As this message was written before you and I ever conversed at all, you should not view it as a sleight against you personally. Instead, this is merely a realistic appraisal of the discussion, formed after extensive consideration and analysis of the Truth Movement.
Simply put, you have had over seven years to present a coherent alternate narrative, key piece of evidence, or proper analysis thereof, and in the intervening time have failed to do so. At the time of writing, there is no expectation for this to occur. Similarly, there are comprehensive resources available, on the Internet, for free, that properly explain what really happened, and refute every known position ever taken by the Truth Movement -- two examples are here and here. Your continued adherence suggests that you either cannot or will not avail yourself of these resources, and it is unlikely that I can succeed where they have failed. There is, however, a large faction in the Truth Movement composed of common miscreants, and I have no interest in enabling its behavior. I am not necessarily implying that you are one of these, but if you are reading this, perhaps it is better for your sake to leave that question open.
You should also not take this declination as a sign or even a hint that your beliefs might be correct. I am perfectly willing to conduct discussions with other interested parties, but I shall only do so with those of an open mind. Consequently, if your concerns prove to be genuine, such that open-minded individuals find them interesting and requiring address, I will be there to provide whatever help I can.
In other words, your burden of proof is as follows: You must convince someone outside the Truth Movement that your beliefs are worth listening to. I point out that one time-honored way to achieve this is to successfully publish in a properly peer-reviewed venue. If you can do this, then I will gladly discuss it with you. But if you cannot, then your beliefs are, frankly, of no significance whatsoever.
Best,
Ryan Mackey
Dear 9/11 Truth Movement Supporter:
If you have been referred to this message, it simply means that unless I invite such discussion, I categorically refuse to discuss items pertaining to your particular belief with you. As this message was written before you and I ever conversed at all, you should not view it as a sleight against you personally. Instead, this is merely a realistic appraisal of the discussion, formed after extensive consideration and analysis of the Truth Movement.
Simply put, you have had over seven years to present a coherent alternate narrative, key piece of evidence, or proper analysis thereof, and in the intervening time have failed to do so. At the time of writing, there is no expectation for this to occur. Similarly, there are comprehensive resources available, on the Internet, for free, that properly explain what really happened, and refute every known position ever taken by the Truth Movement -- two examples are here and here. Your continued adherence suggests that you either cannot or will not avail yourself of these resources, and it is unlikely that I can succeed where they have failed. There is, however, a large faction in the Truth Movement composed of common miscreants, and I have no interest in enabling its behavior. I am not necessarily implying that you are one of these, but if you are reading this, perhaps it is better for your sake to leave that question open.
You should also not take this declination as a sign or even a hint that your beliefs might be correct. I am perfectly willing to conduct discussions with other interested parties, but I shall only do so with those of an open mind. Consequently, if your concerns prove to be genuine, such that open-minded individuals find them interesting and requiring address, I will be there to provide whatever help I can.
In other words, your burden of proof is as follows: You must convince someone outside the Truth Movement that your beliefs are worth listening to. I point out that one time-honored way to achieve this is to successfully publish in a properly peer-reviewed venue. If you can do this, then I will gladly discuss it with you. But if you cannot, then your beliefs are, frankly, of no significance whatsoever.
Best,
Ryan Mackey
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grmcdorman
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,514
Very well put, Mr. Mackey. I am, as always, very impressed by your posts; they are nearly always well thought out, informative, and well-written.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Lately I found myself simply asking why they stated what they did. When they inevitably dodge and try to redirect just refocus them and again ask them to explain. I think this best show the "lurkers" that they don't have a clue when they fail to address such a simple request. The K.I.S.S. approach (one no "truther" could possibly understand)
After my first post I went back to lurking but thanks for the welcome! great post by R Mackey on the findigs of this poll.
To be honest, I only really come here to amuse myself with the posts made by the people who still believe there was a conspiracy these days. I actually find their tactics fascinating. The one thing that strikes me is their ability to nitpick and redirect. It's amazing to see it in action. They know they can't win a particular argument or answer a particular question, but they'll divert your attention to something else and people consistently do get dragged away.
To be honest, I only really come here to amuse myself with the posts made by the people who still believe there was a conspiracy these days. I actually find their tactics fascinating. The one thing that strikes me is their ability to nitpick and redirect. It's amazing to see it in action. They know they can't win a particular argument or answer a particular question, but they'll divert your attention to something else and people consistently do get dragged away.
ref
Master Poster
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2006
- Messages
- 2,685
SYLVESTER1592
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- May 7, 2007
- Messages
- 307
Does it really matter what the Truth Movement thinks?
If they want to believe in creatures from outer space, rockets, controlled demolition, or any other weird idea, does their opinion really have any influence on reality when it can be refuted or be shown to be irrelevant or extremely unlikely? That doesn't mean you can't point someones misconceptions out to them. I do support the idea to resist self - delusion and to offer the possibility to find help in doing so. The most important movements and ideas to resist seem to be those that mislead people in order to manipulate the real world, not those convictions that exist and are perpetuated against all evidence because they give purpose to the life of an individual, however wrong that idea or purpose may be.
The debate with the thruth movement is more or less at an end. They can choose to discard it and disregard the arguments against their position regardless of the content, but by doing so the driving force of a discussion is discarded as well. A further discussion would be expected to be driven more by anger, frustration or even disrespect, but tends to be rationalized to a physics problem.
Discussions now are not to find a scientific explanation for what happened, but to discuss circumstances in which there might be room for a diversity of very unlikely scenarios or which provide insufficient data to completely refute the possibility of an unlikely scenario. Even this seems too hard to do convincingly at this moment.
In my opinion, if you clearly can't test your opinion critically then you are not able to have a discussion. There is no reason to repeat the same extensive discusion over and over again, but there still might be a reason to offer a helpfull hand to those who don't know the previous discussion or have difficulty understanding it on their own.
I think 3 efforts to see if someone needs help or has something to contribute is fair to asses if they want your opinion, or just want to vent their own. I didn't think I was being very unhelpfull offering this or that being a missionary for any opinion on either side would always be a great thing.
It does give people a hobby I guess...
Still, I like your posts though. Thank you R. Mackey
SYL
If they want to believe in creatures from outer space, rockets, controlled demolition, or any other weird idea, does their opinion really have any influence on reality when it can be refuted or be shown to be irrelevant or extremely unlikely? That doesn't mean you can't point someones misconceptions out to them. I do support the idea to resist self - delusion and to offer the possibility to find help in doing so. The most important movements and ideas to resist seem to be those that mislead people in order to manipulate the real world, not those convictions that exist and are perpetuated against all evidence because they give purpose to the life of an individual, however wrong that idea or purpose may be.
The debate with the thruth movement is more or less at an end. They can choose to discard it and disregard the arguments against their position regardless of the content, but by doing so the driving force of a discussion is discarded as well. A further discussion would be expected to be driven more by anger, frustration or even disrespect, but tends to be rationalized to a physics problem.
Discussions now are not to find a scientific explanation for what happened, but to discuss circumstances in which there might be room for a diversity of very unlikely scenarios or which provide insufficient data to completely refute the possibility of an unlikely scenario. Even this seems too hard to do convincingly at this moment.
In my opinion, if you clearly can't test your opinion critically then you are not able to have a discussion. There is no reason to repeat the same extensive discusion over and over again, but there still might be a reason to offer a helpfull hand to those who don't know the previous discussion or have difficulty understanding it on their own.
I think 3 efforts to see if someone needs help or has something to contribute is fair to asses if they want your opinion, or just want to vent their own. I didn't think I was being very unhelpfull offering this or that being a missionary for any opinion on either side would always be a great thing.
It does give people a hobby I guess...
Still, I like your posts though. Thank you R. Mackey
SYL