Is Bended Space = Contracted Space ?

Reality Check · Nov 15, 2009

Bjarne said:
Even the big Master Einstein did not believe that math always reflect the truth.

All scientists know that that math does not always reflect the truth.

Bjarne said:
Did you know that the big problems with understanding quantum gravity are: that all equations show infinity? Hence almost all scientists believes that it must be “something” wrong with the math,- well in this case I believe math shows the truth, the rest of the world doesn’t.

The solutions to many equations come out as infinities and there is a well established procedure to remove them (renormalization) that works for the conditions expected in this universe.
Thus all scientists believe that quantum mechanics is an appropximation to another theory, e.g. string theory or quantum loop theory. This other theory will produce all of the results of QM without the infinities and make further predictions.

Did you know that QED is the most precisely tested theory in physics.

Quantum electrodynamics (QED) is the relativistic quantum field theory of electrodynamics. QED was developed by a number of physicists, beginning in the late 1920s. It basically describes how light and matter interact. QED mathematically describes all phenomena involving electrically charged particles interacting by means of exchange of photons. Physicist Richard Feynman has called it "the jewel of physics" for its extremely accurate predictions of quantities like the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron, and the Lamb shift of the energy levels of hydrogen

Bjarne · Nov 15, 2009

The purpose of science is to mathematically describe a universe that could be understood by people not computers.

And that’s the problem, nobody understands the message: Bended / Curvature space. Both you and I know that math can not talk, or chose expressions. - Our mind can, hence we at least should allow us what if the message “bended” / “curvature” rather should have been “contracted” – AT LEAST how would our universe then look like. – One of the first question would be why should matter contract space, and the question would perhaps be “hanging in the air” after a heavy elastic spaghetti lunch.

Mathematicians, physicists and other scientists are not computers. They understand the universe as described mathematically by GR.

One thing is math/geometry something else is to put word and expression on WHY so strange.

You (Bjarne) can in no way imaging: what is bended / curved space or how a space property causes gravity.

I do not need to because matter sucks, and that’s enough.
I hope you have spend at least 5 minutes of you live now to contemplate over the question WHAT is mass-attraction ?

Seriously why does it heard when you have heavy truck on you big toe?
I mean if it was made of cardboard it wouldn’t pain so much.
WHAT is mass-attraction?

GR can in no way answer that question, because Einstein removed gravity as a force. - This was STUPID my fiend RC .

Bended space can not explain mass attraction and why this dam truck is so heavy. So now ask you self are “bended space” enough to give you a satisfied impression of WHY is the dam truck so heavy?

The mathematics is complex but that is why people (not computers) study GR for years to understand it and its application to the universe.

And still they have not the slightest idea of what is: mass attraction, why is truck is so heavy, - the computer is STUPID, it can not feel the pain, - man –begin to THINK.

Reality Check · Nov 15, 2009

Bjarne said:
And that’s the problem, nobody understands the message: Bended / Curvature space. Both you and I know that math can not talk, or chose expressions. - Our mind can, hence we at least should allow us what if the message “bended” / “curvature” rather should have been “contracted” – AT LEAST how would our universe then look like. – One of the first question would be why should matter contract space, and the question would perhaps be “hanging in the air” after a heavy elastic spaghetti lunch.

The problem with contracted space is that it is not bended space as you already know.

Curved space is not contracted space.

One of the first question would be why should matter curve space? The answer is that we do not know. The answer is that science does not need to know this. The answer is that science is about creating working theories to explain the universe. not about finding absolute truths.

Bjarne said:
One thing is math/geometry something else is to put word and expression on WHY so strange.

It is strange beause it is the way the universe acts, e.g. gravity acts as if it was caused by curved space, particles act as waves (and the other way around), etc.

It is strange to you because you cannot understand it.

If you want the universe to act as you want it to act then I suggest you shout very very loud - maybe it will hear you

!

Bjarne said:
I do not need to because matter sucks, and that’s enough.

Matter pulls and that's enough.

Bjarne said:
I hope you have spend at least 5 minutes of you live now to contemplate over the question WHAT is mass-attraction ?

Define "mass-attraction" and state your evidence that it exists.
If you mean gravity then I suggest you read up on it.

Bjarne said:
Seriously why does it heard when you have heavy truck on you big toe?
I mean if it was made of cardboard it wouldn’t pain so much.
WHAT is mass-attraction?

Seriously why does it heard when you have heavy truck on you big toe?
I mean if it was made of cardboard it wouldn’t pain so much.
WHAT is contracted space?

Bjarne said:
GR can in no way answer that question, because Einstein removed gravity as a force. - This was STUPID my fiend RC .

Your ignorance of GR is STUPID my fiend Bjarne.
It does not remove gravity as a force. It explains it as a force resulting from the curvature of space.

Bjarne said:
Bended space can not explain mass attraction and why this dam truck is so heavy. So now ask you self are “bended space” enough to give you a satisfied impression of WHY is the dam truck so heavy?

Bended space can explain gravity. "mass attraction" does not exists. The dam truck is so heavy because of gravity. WHY is the dam truck so heavy is because it has mass.

Bjarne said:
And still they have not the slightest idea of what is: mass attraction, why is truck is so heavy, - the computer is STUPID, it can not feel the pain, - man –begin to THINK.

I can explain "mass attraction": It is a delusion of yours.
The truck is heavy because of gravity.
There is no computer except in your delusion.
The pain is only in your head - take an aspirin!

Reality Check · Nov 15, 2009

Curved space is not contracted space

I have not seen an answer to this question yet.
First asked 11 November 2009:

Bjarne:
Have you grasped the simple fact that curved space is not contracted space yet?

In flat space the sum of the angles inside a triangle is 180 degrees.
This is no longer true in curved space.
Uniform contraction of space does not produce any curvature of space since it is uniform and preserves shapes. Thus a triangle in flat space which has a sum of 180 degrees still has the same sum after uniform contraction.

Uniform contraction of space does not produce forces when compared to flat space (no GR gravity). This is because straight paths in it remain as straight paths. Newton's laws then show that there is no force.

Nonuniform contraction of space needs sinks and sources of space which has other problems as sol victus has mentioned:

Originally Posted by sol invictus
That's not entirely wrong, but it's incomplete because it has a major problem. Where does the flow originate? If mass is a drain, what's the source? There's no such thing as negative mass, after all.

For example, suppose you have a single point mass somewhere in otherwise empty space. Then the flow points towards that mass. If you follow one of the flow lines out away from the mass, it can't end anywhere or loop back, so it must go all the way to infinity - and there must be an infinity for the line to "end" on; the space cannot be compact.

That's more or less OK, until you try to understand what happens in a universe like ours. Our universe might be infinite, but observation indicates that it's full of a more or less homogeneous mass density everywhere. So, where are all those flow lines coming from? Infinity is no help, because it's full of mass (this is the gravitational version of Olbers' paradox).

That's actually a completely intractable problem - it has no solution - unless you allow space itself, even away from the mass, to deform in response to these flows. Interestingly, you're more or less inevitably led to something like general relativity purely based on the observation that there is no negative mass and that the universe is homogeneous (of course that's not how Einstein arrived at it, he used the much more powerful principle of general covariance).

My objection to nonuniform contraction of space is more physical (and perhaps wrong). As I see it a point mass acting as a drain of spacetime will create an infinite curvature at its position. In other words it will be a black hole with all the consequences, e.g. instantly exploding because of Hawking radiation.

steenkh · Nov 15, 2009

Bjarne said:
Did you know it is proven that you mathematical can “prove” something that does not exist?

I know that mathematics can prove that any formal description is unable to describe every truthful statement, but I have never heard that mathematics is able to prove something that does not exist. Could you please elaborate?

Bjarne · Nov 16, 2009

Will be back tomorrow

Bjarne · Nov 16, 2009

The problem with contracted space is that it is not bended space as you already know

.

How can you claim so when it’s a fact that you or nobody else can imaging WHAT bended space is ?

Curved space is not contracted space.

It’s only your's opinion.

One of the first question would be why should matter curve space? The answer is that we do not know.

What else as matter should curve space?
Somehow end the end the elementary particle most be responsible. And when you already know that these only are whirlpools the answer could should not be so difficult.

The answer is that science does not need to know this.

This is 1000 times so obviously than darm matter.

The answer is that science is about creating working theories to explain the universe. not about finding absolute truths.

Without understanding gravity, “theories of the Universe” can only be ridiculous jokes. and so it goes the one soon we have a complete new religion.

Matter pulls and that's enough

What?
I thought you only believed in GR
According to GR gravity is no force
Hence it “should” not be able to pull
I believe gravity is force.
So far I understand you do not

Your ignorance of GR is STUPID my fiend Bjarne.

I am not ignoring GR, but only attacking our STUPID interpretations and misunderstandings.

The dam truck is so heavy because of gravity. WHY is the dam truck so heavy is because it has mass.

This is only silly superficially crap.
Between the Earth and the truck, something happens, this is why it is stupid to have your toes there.

I can explain "mass attraction": It is a delusion of yours.
The truck is heavy because of gravity.
There is no computer except in your delusion.
The pain is only in your head - take an aspirin!

So the fact that the mass attraction is greater on the apple is a delusion? Well we have of religious liberty.

Reality Check · Nov 16, 2009

Bjarne said:
How can you claim so when it’s a fact that you or nobody else can imaging WHAT bended space is ?

One more time for the simple minded:
Mathematicians and scientists imagine what WHAT bended space is all the time.
Mathematicians and scientists image what WHAT bended space is all the time.
Scientists do not need to know WHAT curved space is in order to use it.

There is mathematics that describes space in general that includes cuvature.
The universe acts as if space is curved.

Bjarne said:
It’s only your's opinion.

No it is not.
The mathematics of curved space means that is is not contracted space. The universe acts as if space is curved.

Bjarne said:
What else as matter should curve space?
Somehow end the end the elementary particle most be responsible. And when you already know that these only are whirlpools the answer could should not be so difficult.

Gibberish. Maybe you mean that matter nad energy (as in GE) can curve space. That is what GR states and the observations of the universe confirms.

Bjarne said:
This is 1000 times so obviously than darm matter.

What is "darm matter".
If you mean dark matter than there is overwhelming evidence that it exists:

The motion of galaxies in galactic clusters that need more mass in them them is visible. This has been known since the 1940's!
The flatness of galaxy rotation curves (they should decrease at large distances).
Gravitational lensing maps of galactic clusters that show most of the mass is not in the galaxies.
The observation that the universe is flat but we can only find 4% of the mass & energy needed to make it flat.
The large scale structure of the universe fits models that include dark matter.

Bjarne said:
Without understanding gravity, “theories of the Universe” can only be ridiculous jokes. and so it goes the one soon we have a complete new religion.

Scientists understand gravity very well. There is this theory that you have obviously never heard of or understood called General Relativity. GR has been tested extensively and works :jaw-dropp

unlike your idea!

Bjarne said:
What?
I thought you only believed in GR
According to GR gravity is no force
Hence it “should” not be able to pull
I believe gravity is force.
So far I understand you do not

Wrong. Your ignorance is showing Bjarne.
In GR there is the curvature of spacetime that gives the equivalent of a force. This force is known as gravity.
GR definitely pulls.

Simple explanation for the ignorant, Bjarne:
In the mathematics of manifolds the concept of a straight line is generalized to a geodesic. This is essentially a measure of the shortest distance between two points, i.e. a straight line in flat space.

Objects follow geodesics if they are not subject to an external force.
Geodesics are curved in curved spacetime when compared to flat space.
Objects in curved space time thus follow a curved line with respect to flat space. Thus planets orbit stars, etc.
Newton's laws state that there must be a force to curve a path.
Thus we call the curvature of space a force. This force we label gravity. This is convenient because GR reduces to Newton's law of gravity in the weak field approximation.

Bjarne said:
I am not ignoring GR, but only attacking our STUPID interpretations and misunderstandings.

What STUPID interpretations?
The fact that it includes a curvature tensor?

Bjarne said:
This is only silly superficially crap.
Between the Earth and the truck, something happens, this is why it is stupid to have your toes there.

This is only silly superficially crap froim you.
Gravity is the force between the Earth and the truck, this is why it is stupid to have your toes there.

Bjarne said:
So the fact that the mass attraction is greater on the apple is a delusion? Well we have of religious liberty.

What is "mass attraction"?

Your drawing is really stupid and just reveals your ignorance of basic physics. We have the force of gravity. Since you are ignorant of this lets use the well known and quite well tested Newton's law of gravitational force:

F = GMm/r^2

where

F is the force of gravity
G is the gravtational constant.
M is the mass of a body.
m is the mass of another body.
r is the distance between the 2 bodies.

GR reduces to Newton's law of gravitational force in the weak field approximation.
The force on an apple by the Earth is less than the force on the Moon by the Earth in your silly drawing because:

The apple has less mass than the Moon.
The apple is further away from the Earth than the Moon (in your drawing).

Reality Check · Nov 16, 2009

Curved space is not contracted space

First asked 11 November 2009:

Bjarne:
Have you grasped the simple fact that curved space is not contracted space yet?

In flat space the sum of the angles inside a triangle is 180 degrees.
This is no longer true in curved space.
Uniform contraction of space does not produce any curvature of space since it is uniform and preserves shapes. Thus a triangle in flat space which has a sum of 180 degrees still has the same sum after uniform contraction.

Uniform contraction of space does not produce forces when compared to flat space (no GR gravity). This is because straight paths in it remain as straight paths. Newton's laws then show that there is no force.

Nonuniform contraction of space needs sinks and sources of space which has other problems as sol victus has mentioned.

My objection to nonuniform contraction of space is more physical (and perhaps wrong). As I see it a point mass acting as a drain of spacetime will create an infinite curvature at its position. In other words it will be a black hole with all the consequences, e.g. instantly exploding because of Hawking radiation.

So far the answer is:
Bjarne cannot understant the simple fact that curved space is not contracted space.

Reality Check · Nov 16, 2009

Bjarne said:
.http://www.science27.com/images/img_37.jpg
So the fact that the mass attraction is greater on the apple is a delusion? Well we have of religious liberty.

Well we have complete gibberish.
Let me emphasis what is wrong with the diagram.

You have never defined what "mass attraction" is.
I will guess that it is the quantities in the diagram, i.e. forces.
The force on the apple is less than the force on the Moon.
Can you understand that 0.00027 N is a lot smaller than 2*10²⁰ N?
This is exactly what Newton and GR predict.

Bjarne · Nov 17, 2009

Wrong. Your ignorance is showing Bjarne.
In GR there is the curvature of spacetime that gives the equivalent of a force. This force is known as gravity. GR definitely pulls.

Crap GR can not explain the underlaying cause of mass-attraction

Gravity is the force between the Earth and the truck, this is why it is stupid to have your toes there.

The point is that GR can not explain the underlaying cause of mass-attraction

What is "mass attraction"?

GR reduces to Newton's law of gravitational force in the weak field approximation.
The force on an apple by the Earth is less than the force on the Moon by the Earth in your silly drawing because:
1. The apple has less mass than the Moon.
2. The apple is further away from the Earth than the Moon (in your drawing).

I am not asking about superficially knowledge, but WHAT’s going on between the Earth and the Moon. WHY do you have mass attraction?

The force on the apple is less than the force on the Moon.

Yes accurate like the text in image below shows.

To avoid more superficially try to explain:
WHY is the force on the Earth so huge ( not more superficially crap that is because the earth have more mass) BUT what is mass attraction ? Why is the dam truck so heavy? What happens between the earth and the truck?

I am asking for the underlaying cause of mass-attraction (if you still haven't got the point) ???

dafydd · Nov 17, 2009

Bjarne said:
I am asking for the underlaying cause of mass-attraction

Why don't you explain it to us and win your Nobel Prize?

Bjarne · Nov 17, 2009

Why don't you explain it to us and win your Nobel Prize?

To discuss with others brings sometimes new angels, and the right question. This is very usefull.

Reality Check · Nov 17, 2009

Bjarne said:
Crap GR can not explain the underlaying cause of mass-attraction
[/quote}
Crap GR can. I tis curvature of space.

Bjarne said:

The point is that GR can not explain the underlaying cause of mass-attraction

Click to expand...

The point is that GR can explain the underlaying cause of gravity - it is the curvature of space.

Bjarne said:

I am not asking about superficially knowledge, but WHAT’s going on between the Earth and the Moon. WHY do you have mass attraction?

Click to expand...

Space curves.

Bjarne said:

To avoid more superficially try to explain:
WHY is the force on the Earth so huge ( not more superficially crap that is because the earth have more mass) BUT what is mass attraction ? Why is the dam truck so heavy? What happens between the earth and the truck?

Click to expand...

The force on the Earth due to the Moon is bigger than that from the apple because:

The Moon has more mass and so curves space more than the apple.

The Moon is closer to the Earth in the diagram.

What has the idiotic dam truck hgoot to do with the diagram?

Bjarne said:

I am asking for the underlaying cause of mass-attraction (if you still haven't got the point) ???

Click to expand...

It is curvature of space ((if you still haven't got the point)

Bjarne · Nov 17, 2009

Crap GR can not explain the underlaying cause of mass-attraction
Crap GR can. I tis curvature of space.

Now imaging you have a big cardboard truck on you big toe, its big, but not heavy and no pain
Now we will replace it will a real heavy truck, ahhh my toe.
What have change? – I mean nothing, space (around the earth) still curves the same right ?
Can you not see have funny you claims is ?

It does not remove gravity as a force. It explains it as a force resulting from the curvature of space.

Try to google on : “gravity is not a force” and not read what you self wrote :
"It does not remove gravity as a force. It explains it as a force resulting from the curvature of space".

How can curvature space be a result in a force comrade?
How can curved space be responsible for mass-attraction?
Try to explain it, I mean not just to put a single simple expression on it, but EXPLAIN WHAT happens.
Why does the steel truck on you toe give you pain and the cardboard truck not.
I mean the curvature of space is almost the same whether it is a steel or a cardboard truck.
Well you can say the heavy truck bends space as well a bit more than the cardboard truck.

BUT WHY MASS ATTRACTION ?

I do not need a explaination like: bla bla bla bla bla: - the mass of the steel truck is larger, - a cow would agree to that.
I mean EXPAIN WHAT BENDED / CURVATURE SPACE HAVE WITH THIS DIFFERENCE TO DO, and exactly why you get the pain.

It’s dame easy to put some superficially words and expression on the phenomena, and then hope everybody is happy (but in realety nobody really understand it)..
Curved space makes mass attraction is almost the same like saying: It’s because of the Ladenburmer Hulla Bulla. It’s explaining NOTHING.

But on the other hand: Ladenburmer Hulla Bulla sounds very complicated so nobody even can imaging what it really means) so it is properly the perfect expression and explanation right?

I hope you also can see my point: So long you do not know how or why mass bends / curves space, you are far out on Jens Peters Jensen plowed fields - with a very limit ability to explain or understand WHAT really happens here. WHAT is the underlying cause to this phenomenon?

dafydd · Nov 17, 2009

Bjarne said:
To discuss with others brings sometimes new angels, and the right question. This is very usefull.

So you can't explain it.What a surprise,and I would be happy if you could carry on your discussions here without insults.

Bjarne · Nov 17, 2009

I am asking for the underplaying cause of mass-attraction

So you can't explain it. What a surprise

I have done that already, and in many different ways.
1.) Matter "consumes space"
2.) Because of that space around matter is "thinning out”. (This is not stange because we know space is flexible. That space is “thinning out” due to gravity, is a better expression as: “bended or curvature”. Because this expression also comprehend the cause of what really happens).
3.) Because of matter between two object demands the same space between, space between two objects is thinning out. If the demand is huge, space gets that more “thin”.
4.) If you walk up a hill the Earth and you body demand the same space between you and you body. SPACE is parts of the game. Space makes the connection, like elastic invisible spaghetti between two hungry persons.

It’s so simple, that we do not need more as we already know: A flexible space is enough, and we know this is a property space have.

Why invent more deforming space properties ? - if more is not necessary.
Why make it more difficult as it is?

Ziggurat · Nov 17, 2009

Bjarne said:
Now imaging you have a big cardboard truck on you big toe, its big, but not heavy and no pain
Now we will replace it will a real heavy truck, ahhh my toe.
What have change? – I mean nothing, space (around the earth) still curves the same right ?
Can you not see have funny you claims is ?

The claim isn't "funny". Rather your understanding of the claim is... lacking. In GR, objects will follow geodesics unless a force acts on them. In layman's terms, that means that the curvature of space makes free objects "fall". Falling is the absence of any force in GR, it takes force to keep something from falling. Falling is inertial, not falling is non-inertial. But the truck won't fall, because it's NOT a free object. A force is acting on it, namely your foot, and your foot prevents it from falling. But how big a force is needed to keep it from falling? That depends not only on the curvature (which determines the acceleration needed to not fall), but also on the mass of the truck. Your foot must exert a larger force on a heavier truck to result in the same acceleration (relative to a falling reference frame).

Quite simple, really. But then, you've had trouble with units from the beginning, so I suspect you won't grasp this explanation either.

Bjarne · Nov 17, 2009

The claim isn't "funny". Rather your understanding of the claim is... lacking. In GR, objects will follow geodesics unless a force acts on them.................etc..

You did you best
But still the problem is that we even can not imaging what is curvature of space.
Fundamentally we are totally blindfolded.

The blind man knows that the road is there, the Bus is there, the door there.
In his mind he has some idea of the geometry, BUT he has NEVER seen the world.

He has never seen a elephant, a car a human or a cow.
His imagination of how the may look like MUST be totally confused
ALSO even though he knows all the geometry around the house and the roads nearby etc..

Now imaging one day he would see the world. EVERYTHING would be totally different from the way he had imaging.

Now ask you self. Do we have something to learn from that example?

Are we in fact blindfolded, with just some simple geometric support?

Ziggurat · Nov 17, 2009

Bjarne said:
You did you best
But still the problem is that we even can not imaging what is curvature of space.

What on earth are you talking about? Curvature is pretty easy to imagine.

Is Bended Space = Contracted Space ?

Penultimate Amazing

Philosopher

Penultimate Amazing

Penultimate Amazing

Penultimate Amazing

Philosopher

Philosopher

Penultimate Amazing

Penultimate Amazing

Penultimate Amazing

Philosopher

Banned

Philosopher

Penultimate Amazing

Philosopher

Banned

Philosopher

Penultimate Amazing

Philosopher

Penultimate Amazing

Share this page

ISF - Join now!