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Tags ae911truth , controlled demolition , David Chandler , free fall , wtc7

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Old 17th July 2009, 08:46 PM   #521
triforcharity
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
If asked to nominate something that needs investigation, this would be it.
As an ex-Ham and electrical engineer, I appreciate the problems and well before 9/11/2001, I knew a retired FDNY communications engineer that
said that people should be in jail for the radio systems the city purchased.

I will agree and disagree. There was quite the stink over the new radios. They sucked. Most went back to the old ones untill the new ones' kinks were worked out.

The problem with WTC 1 & 2, was the signal got lost amungst all the aluminum and steel. Solution?? Repeater. Worked great, unless a big freaking plane crashed into the building, rendering it useless.

Do I think people should be in jail for it?? Nah. Do I personally think someone should have lost their jobs because of it?? ABSOLUTELY!! Those radios are our lifeline. Without them, we're pretty much useless. People can die because of faaulty radios.
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Old 17th July 2009, 09:34 PM   #522
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Quote:
bill smith
Part C nuust be utterly ruined by the meshing of part C and part A. Part A has it's braced giant upstanding core columns anchored in the ground offering their full and constant strain energy against all comers. The falling part C on the other hand, given that the upper and lower core colmns are offset from each other can only offer a sequence of weaker elements such as floor-to-column connections, floor trusses. concrete floors and so on. The constant SE of the upstanding columns will take these ghallenges one at a rime and destroy them over the whole width of the buildng.

Take a floor-to-column connection in part C. It is still attached to a column in part C. It meets the upstanding giant A column. Between the descending piece of core column and the upsatnding column the connection is smoothly stripped of the C column . Then then same happens with the next component/element in line etc etc.

While C may damge A significantly it will be clear that A damages C far more. And C is much smaller than A and can afford the attrition less. A destroys C and collapse is arrested.

(Instructions in back of nano-thermate can)

Notes Apply What Is Proper Way To Put Material:

Your columns are focal point of building. Be sure that columns painting meshing techniques and choice of most flattering to your surreptitiouse purpose when reinstaling.

With color C create the illusion new shapes and discrete sizes. Always mind light colors highlight errors
and dark colors enter in the suspicious of authorities especialy paint not dry to touching.

Recede over when approached by questioners so as to disguise the plaster of reapplication in time for
drying in two coat . It's Aluminum powder color A column shadows be convenient do not hurry when surprised by owner of office says "Hey what you doing in my office" reply with singles or coordinated duos, or quads. A
tested reply assurance OK and go on.

Try to find far away columns that are hily misterious. Simply put, you want material you see in
container to not see after aplycation. When aplying material sweep the stroke over entire area from
illusion edged to neck widow. This sweep will be base application first slowly and is to complete job
reduce strain energy tender forearms. It will prevent creasing etc etc.

After plaster work dry applying base coat, apply second wait dry. Remember plaster removal first steel
paint on upper parts tardy not other way. Its part that most error apply. No.

Third coat be added. Use a deep, dark depth. Apply this along the line, and at the outer drawers
emphasizing the crease of the corner at steel lips. Arrest attrition ,this is more defined receptacles.

How you apply final coat help smaller, wider set or closer together. Key is blend well that attention
still away from recent work arrested not "just applied".

Install ceiling tile.

There done.

__________________________________________________ _________
"`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.' "
- Alice in Wonderland

Last edited by BasqueArch; 17th July 2009 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 18th July 2009, 12:04 AM   #523
tfk
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Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post

(Instructions in back of nano-thermate can)

Notes Apply What Is Proper Way To Put Material:

Your columns are focal point of building. Be sure that columns painting meshing techniques and choice of most flattering to your surreptitiouse purpose when reinstaling.

With color C create the illusion new shapes and discrete sizes. Always mind light colors highlight errors
and dark colors enter in the suspicious of authorities especialy paint not dry to touching.

Recede over when approached by questioners so as to disguise the plaster of reapplication in time for
drying in two coat . It's Aluminum powder color A column shadows be convenient do not hurry when surprised by owner of office says "Hey what you doing in my office" reply with singles or coordinated duos, or quads. A
tested reply assurance OK and go on.

Try to find far away columns that are hily misterious. Simply put, you want material you see in
container to not see after aplycation. When aplying material sweep the stroke over entire area from
illusion edged to neck widow. This sweep will be base application first slowly and is to complete job
reduce strain energy tender forearms. It will prevent creasing etc etc.

After plaster work dry applying base coat, apply second wait dry. Remember plaster removal first steel
paint on upper parts tardy not other way. Its part that most error apply. No.

Third coat be added. Use a deep, dark depth. Apply this along the line, and at the outer drawers
emphasizing the crease of the corner at steel lips. Arrest attrition ,this is more defined receptacles.

How you apply final coat help smaller, wider set or closer together. Key is blend well that attention
still away from recent work arrested not "just applied".

Install ceiling tile.

There done.

__________________________________________________ _________
"`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.' "
- Alice in Wonderland
Basque,

Cripes, we barely got sooper-dooper nanothermite out of R&D, and it's ALREADY been out-sourced to China...?!!

I hope the manufacturing processes have better quality control than their tech writers.


Tom

Last edited by tfk; 18th July 2009 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 18th July 2009, 06:52 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
If asked to nominate something that needs investigation, this would be it.
As an ex-Ham and electrical engineer, I appreciate the problems and well before 9/11/2001, I knew a retired FDNY communications engineer that
said that people should be in jail for the radio systems the city purchased.
Another EE?

Cool...I wasn't sure how many of us there were on this forum...I seem to be surrounded by physicists and MEs...

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Old 4th March 2010, 02:46 PM   #525
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bumpin' an old thread.

BSCE, EI here

I think the key thing about NIST admitting free fall is that they don't say anything about the ramifications of free fall. They just say it happened and thats about it. Can anybody link to their justification of free fall?
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Old 4th March 2010, 03:04 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
BSCE, EI here

I think the key thing about NIST admitting free fall is that they don't say anything about the ramifications of free fall. They just say it happened and thats about it. Can anybody link to their justification of free fall?
It's in the final NIST report on WTC 7. It's near the end, where they "admit" the free fall happened. The clarification is pretty simple: roughly 8 stories failed at roughly the same time. The upper part of the building fell those 8 stories before encountering any real resistance.
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Old 4th March 2010, 03:08 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by newton3376 View Post
Another EE?

Cool...I wasn't sure how many of us there were on this forum...I seem to be surrounded by physicists and MEs...

EE for the sake of understanding 9/11. I slipped into the computer side and never used the EE education. The school required "Theoretical mechanics 101" (essentially finite element analysis done with a slide rule) which taught me some concepts that I never used until Truthers that knew even less started saying stupid things about the collapse of WTC.
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Old 4th March 2010, 03:13 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
BSCE, EI here

I think the key thing about NIST admitting free fall is that they don't say anything about the ramifications of free fall. They just say it happened and thats about it. Can anybody link to their justification of free fall?

The outer frame of wtc7 was attached to the inner structures which began falling first (as demonstrated by the initial motion of the penthouse). By the time the outer walls began falling, they were being accelerated not only by their own weight, but also by momentum transfer (via torque and tension through linkages) from internal structures that were already falling. All the forces involved, essentially weight + transferred dynamic forces - resistance, netted out to approximately mg for a brief period of time.

As an illustration of the general principle, imagine parking two similar cars next to each other on the edge of a cliff. Connect the two cars by 100 meters of 30mm steel cable. Roll one car off the cliff. Once that car clears the cliff it will accelerate at about g ("free fall speed"). But when the cable tightens, the second car will accelerate faster than g at first, for a brief period. It's easy for a falling object to accelerate faster than g if it's attached to something else that started falling first.

NIST's justification is in a way far simpler (though far more complex to actually perform, and far more authoritative): they modeled the entire collapse (which really just means, they did the calculations for what would happen to each piece of the building moment by moment throughout the event based on the laws of physics) and that's what the model shows happening.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Last edited by Myriad; 4th March 2010 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Edit: to fix the cable that was way too thin!
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Old 4th March 2010, 09:12 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
BSCE, EI here

I think the key thing about NIST admitting free fall is that they don't say anything about the ramifications of free fall. They just say it happened and thats about it. Can anybody link to their justification of free fall?
Or, to be precise, a PORTION of the building (i.e., the north & west outer walls) fell:

1. for a short period (~1.75 sec) at a slow, constant velocity,
2. for a short period (~2.25 sec) at (NEAR*) free fall acceleration,
3. for the next visible period (~2 sec) at lower acceleration.

In other words, pretty much as you'd expect from a tall, thin structure that buckles down low.

*unfortunately, NIST blew it & omitted this adjective.

The WHOLE building took a lot longer to fall, of course. Because it met resistance while it fell. Hard (perhaps impossible) to tell how fast the interior of the building took to fall vertically at any given point. But the collapse progressed at a rather leisurely pace horizontally thru the building.

Tom
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Old 5th March 2010, 02:54 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
EE for the sake of understanding 9/11. I slipped into the computer side and never used the EE education. The school required "Theoretical mechanics 101" (essentially finite element analysis done with a slide rule) which taught me some concepts that I never used until Truthers that knew even less started saying stupid things about the collapse of WTC.
Thats cool....

There are many aspects and topics that I covered in school that I do not use on a daily basis....and some that I have never (since school) used....

Still...nice to know there are others lurking on JREF

As for the truthers knowing less....well yeah...that seems to be a pattern with them...

They constantly talk about stuff they don't understand and haven't researched, which is why they are almost always wrong about every single thing they say....
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Old 5th March 2010, 03:07 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
BSCE, EI here

I think the key thing about NIST admitting free fall is that they don't say anything about the ramifications of free fall. They just say it happened and thats about it. Can anybody link to their justification of free fall?
Oh don't worry about JS.

He is just a troll. He has had this explained to him many times in many different places, by many different folks.

Still doesn't have a clue.
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Old 6th March 2010, 02:56 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
BSCE, EI here

I think the key thing about NIST admitting free fall is that they don't say anything about the ramifications of free fall. They just say it happened and thats about it. Can anybody link to their justification of free fall?
[I believe what you say, TL. Just a little experiment.]

JS,

Tell ya what. Why don't you TRY to write, in your own words, what you think that NIST DID say about the "near free fall".

Not what you believe or don't believe. Just try to give an accurate rendition of what NIST concluded. As such, it'll require no attack or defense of your own.

Your grade will not be based on structural engineering.
It'll be based solely on reading comprehension.

If you choose to do this, please don't just cut & paste.
If you're not willing to put out this small effort, you've got a bit of a nerve asking others to do so for you. (Especially if, as TL says, others have already done so in the past.)

Tom

PS. "BSCE". Civil?

"EI"?

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Old 7th March 2010, 07:41 AM   #533
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It amazes me that the thought of the structure simply having no integrity left escapes the thought of these people. But I guess I'm used to it now :\
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Old 7th March 2010, 03:17 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
BSCE, EI here

I think the key thing about NIST admitting free fall is that they don't say anything about the ramifications of free fall. They just say it happened and thats about it. Can anybody link to their justification of free fall?
Well I think they said it was a three-stage freefall. Something like that anyway . 'Plummet, plunge, and GONE' if you ask me... lol
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Old 7th March 2010, 03:21 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
It amazes me that the thought of the structure simply having no integrity left escapes the thought of these people. But I guess I'm used to it now :\
'Now we find out that WTC7 was designed and constructed with a very unusual technique to insure complete structural integrity even if whole floors were removed. It was one of the most structurally redundant buildings ever built in the history of steel structures.'
http://tyrannyalert.com/wtc7solution.htm The Strength of WTC7
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Old 7th March 2010, 03:25 PM   #536
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Is it true that the reason that NIST is refusing to release the data and assumptions that they used to construct their computer model of the collapse of WTC7 is because 'it would endanger the pubic safety'

What could they mean ?
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Old 8th March 2010, 11:27 AM   #537
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Article in Today's Washington Post. Do you think that maybe they are piquing people's curiousity just a LEETLE too much ?

Are they hindering the Truth Movement or helping it ?

I think they are jumping ship boys, After all if they want to survive they better be seen to serve the public interest wouldn't you say ?

Monday, March 8, 2010
'' YUKIHISA FUJITA is an influential member of the ruling Democratic Party of Japan. As chief of the DPJ's international department and head of the Research Committee on Foreign Affairs in the upper house of Japan's parliament, to which he was elected in 2007, he is a Brahmin in the foreign policy establishment of Washington's most important East Asian ally. He also seems to think that America's rendering of the events of Sept. 11, 2001, is a gigantic hoax.

Mr. Fujita's ideas about the attack on the World Trade Center, which he shared with us in a recent interview, are too bizarre, half-baked and intellectually bogus to merit serious discussion. He questions whether it was really the work of terrorists; suggests that shadowy forces with advance knowledge of the plot played the stock market to profit from it; peddles the fantastic idea that eight of the 19 hijackers are alive and well; and hints that controlled demolition rather than fire or debris may be a more likely explanation for at least the collapse of the building at 7 World Trade Center, which was adjacent to the twin towers.''

Read more...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1
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* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

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Old 8th March 2010, 11:40 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Article in Today's Washington Post. Do you think that maybe they are piquing people's curiousity just a LEETLE too much ?

Are they hindering the Truth Movement or helping it ?

I think they are jumping ship boys, After all ifthey want to survive they better be seen to serve the public interest wouldn't you say ?

Monday, March 8, 2010
'' YUKIHISA FUJITA is an influential member of the ruling Democratic Party of Japan. As chief of the DPJ's international department and head of the Research Committee on Foreign Affairs in the upper house of Japan's parliament, to which he was elected in 2007, he is a Brahmin in the foreign policy establishment of Washington's most important East Asian ally. He also seems to think that America's rendering of the events of Sept. 11, 2001, is a gigantic hoax.

Mr. Fujita's ideas about the attack on the World Trade Center, which he shared with us in a recent interview, are too bizarre, half-baked and intellectually bogus to merit serious discussion. He questions whether it was really the work of terrorists; suggests that shadowy forces with advance knowledge of the plot played the stock market to profit from it; peddles the fantastic idea that eight of the 19 hijackers are alive and well; and hints that controlled demolition rather than fire or debris may be a more likely explanation for at least the collapse of the building at 7 World Trade Center, which was adjacent to the twin towers.''

Read more...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1
I mean think about it....Just yesterday Iran accused America of carrying out 9/11, Now a top Japanese minister. President Mahatir of Malaysia did just a week or two ago. Minister Michael Meecher in England accuses America, Andreas von Bulow the German Defence minister accuses America, Hugo Chavez of Venezuela accuses America, That Italian minister accuses America...I'm sure I can find more if I bother looking..

Should somebody email the Washington Post and inform them of this ?

You are as guilty as sin. The chickens arre coming home to roost.
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*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
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Old 8th March 2010, 11:51 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
I mean think about it....Just yesterday Iran accused America of carrying out 9/11, Now a top Japanese minister. President Mahatir of Malaysia did just a week or two ago. Minister Michael Meecher in England accuses America, Andreas von Bulow the German Defence minister accuses America, Hugo Chavez of Venezuela accuses America, That Italian minister accuses America...I'm sure I can find more if I bother looking..

Should somebody email the Washington Post and inform them of this ?

You are as guilty as sin. The chickens arre coming home to roost.
Yep...the world is full of nuts. What you fail to understand, Bill, is that it doesn't matter how many people believe the nonsense...it's a matter of evidence. The entire world could think that 9/11 was an inside jobby-job...the facts and evidence point to it not being.
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Old 8th March 2010, 11:55 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
BSCE, EI here

I think the key thing about NIST admitting free fall is that they don't say anything about the ramifications of free fall. They just say it happened and thats about it. Can anybody link to their justification of free fall?
If anyone is unable to deal with the ramifications of freefall, it's the twoofers.

The total collapse time for WTC7 was sixteen seconds, minimum (and that is just from the first visible exterior signs, the full collapse was likely significantly longer). What the 2.25 seconds of freefall means is that to fill up the rest of the sixteen seconds, the remainder of the collapse proceeded at a much slower pace.

Which blows the infamous twoofer talking point completely out of reality.
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Old 8th March 2010, 12:02 PM   #541
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Originally Posted by HyJinX View Post
Yep...the world is full of nuts. What you fail to understand, Bill, is that it doesn't matter how many people believe the nonsense...it's a matter of evidence. The entire world could think that 9/11 was an inside jobby-job...the facts and evidence point to it not being.
I meant to post this in the General Discusson thread. Sorry.

I don't care whether it is official or not. All I care about is that every living soul on Earth will know what America did. While you may think that doesn't matter we will see in the long term what will happen.

A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is more than enough.
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Old 8th March 2010, 12:05 PM   #542
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
I meant to post this in the General Discusson thread. Sorry.

I don't care whether it is official or not. All I care about is that every living soul on Earth will know what America did. While you may think that doesn't matter we will see in the long term what will happen.

A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is more than enough.

sure it si bill.

You just keep coming up with them don't you? You should put together a stand up routine.
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Old 8th March 2010, 12:07 PM   #543
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Is it true that the reason that NIST is refusing to release the data and assumptions that they used to construct their computer model of the collapse of WTC7 is because 'it would endanger the pubic safety'

What could they mean ?
No. It's not true. Go to the AE911Truth website for more info. They are releasing raw data.
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Old 8th March 2010, 12:14 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
If anyone is unable to deal with the ramifications of freefall, it's the twoofers.

The total collapse time for WTC7 was sixteen seconds, minimum (and that is just from the first visible exterior signs, the full collapse was likely significantly longer). What the 2.25 seconds of freefall means is that to fill up the rest of the sixteen seconds, the remainder of the collapse proceeded at a much slower pace.

Which blows the infamous twoofer talking point completely out of reality.
And the phenomenon is explained very carefully in the report.

Chapter 12, NCSTAR 1-9 Vol2 p.602

'In Stage 1, the descent was slow and the acceleration was less than that of gravity. This stage
corresponds to the initial buckling of the exterior columns in the lower stories of the north
face, as seen in Figure 12–62
. By 1.75 s, the north face had descended approximately 7 ft.

In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration, as exterior column buckling
progressed and the columns provided negligible support to the upper portion of the north
face.
This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories (105 ft), the distance traveled
between times t = 1.75 s and t = 4.0 s

In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased somewhat as the upper portion of the north face
encountered resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below
. Between 4.0 s
and 5.4 s, the northwest corner fell an additional 130 ft. '

Note the sophistication and accuracy (and estimates for errors, completely absent from David Chandler's crude methodology, by comparison)

'It was difficult to detect the exact instant that the north wall began to collapse because of the resolution of
the video image and because, as columns buckled, vertical movement was initially very small. The
instant of initial movement was estimated by analyzing changes in the color of a pixel in the video recording over time. A single pixel close to the center of the north face roofline was selected and the
color of the pixel, expressed as values of hue, saturation, and brightness, was recorded for each frame
between 6.0 s and 7.8 s, where t = 0 s corresponds to the start of descent of the east penthouse (see Table
5-3). The brightness was found to provide the best indicator of change since the brightness of a pixel
representing the sky above the building had a value of 100 percent while a pixel representing the roofline
of the building (granite façade) had a brightness of roughly 60 percent for the pixel selected. The
brightness of the selected pixel, expressed as a percent, is plotted versus time in Figure 12–75. From 6.0 s
to 6.9 s, the brightness is seen to oscillate around a value of 60 percent indicating no vertical movement.
Beginning at roughly 6.9 s the brightness increases irreversibly to a value of 100 percent at which time
the pixel under study represents the sky. Thus, the relative time at which the roofline began to move was
estimated as 6.9 s. The time when the roofline dropped from view behind the buildings in the foreground
was 12.3 s. Thus, the time the roofline took to fall 18 stories was approximately 5.4 s. '

Which is 40% longer than freefall acceleration would have produced.....

Oh, and they backed it all up with numerous other techniques, including seismic analysis and of course the LS-DYNA model....
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Old 8th March 2010, 12:18 PM   #545
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I NEED JREF's HELP!!!

I saw a list of A&ETRUTH members on here a while ago, coupled with their "experience and expertise".

i was wondering who could provide me with this list.
It was a great debunking of the most annoying chapter of the truthers. The so called pro's.

I'm debating this fella and trying to explain how Richard Gage and his band of misfits are completely outnumbered and underqualified. But I can't find that full list of names and professions to provide them. Can someone help? I tried searching the forums and tags and came up with nothing, but I know its here somewhere.

I know lot of these guys are philosophy and psychology professors and NOT architects or engineers. I just need to prove it to this dude. I thought I saved the list but I must've lost it. I'll be saving this time, in a folder for future online debating.

Its irritating because I told him that there's only 1100 people in a&e for truth and that less than half of them are experts in related fields and less than half of that half are actual architects or engineers. I said its 1100 vs. 700,000 architects and engineers worldwide. But since he thinks this group holds 1100 FIRM, STRONG architects and engineers, I need to remind him where he really stands...

Can someone help on this? I posted a thread about it but it was ignored.

Thanks for your help!!!
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Old 8th March 2010, 12:24 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post

sure it si bill.

You just keep coming up with them don't you? You should put together a stand up routine.
I might change my signature for that one for a while.

Do you think that the American people wll want a situation like that to arise or do you think they will want blood on the floor in Washington ? (I mean that in the metaphorical sense obviously)

The American people will have to cauterise the septic 9/11 wound by the white hot fires of Truth. They will have to be seen to burn the witches so to speak. Otherwise America will become a pariah Nation.
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*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

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Old 8th March 2010, 04:29 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
I might change my signature for that one for a while.

Do you think that the American people wll want a situation like that to arise or do you think they will want blood on the floor in Washington ? (I mean that in the metaphorical sense obviously)

The American people will have to cauterise the septic 9/11 wound by the white hot fires of Truth. They will have to be seen to burn the witches so to speak. Otherwise America will become a pariah Nation.
I would expect the American people to want answers based on sound scientific and technical reasoning and not founded upon a world political view that demands that the events of Sept 11/01 be blamed upon a power hungry elite.

However I also recognize that a large portion of the American people (including you it would certainly appear) would have trouble multiplying 5 X 21 without a calculator let alone be able to understand the difference between the two approachs.
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Old 8th March 2010, 04:41 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
I would expect the American people to want answers based on sound scientific and technical reasoning and not founded upon a world political view that demands that the events of Sept 11/01 be blamed upon a power hungry elite.

However I also recognize that a large portion of the American people (including you it would certainly appear) would have trouble multiplying 5 X 21 without a calculator let alone be able to understand the difference between the two approachs.
I better delete this one. Gotta walk easy around here. Lots of Truthers suspended in the last days. Would 70% be an overestimation ?
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* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

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Old 8th March 2010, 05:03 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
I better delete this one. Gotta walk easy around here. Lots of Truthers suspended in the last days. Would 70% be an overestimation ?
Do you know anyone who can do physics? David has decided paranoid conspiracy theories are more important to spread than doing real engineering. What engineering school did you go to bill?
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Old 8th March 2010, 05:05 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
I would expect the American people to want answers based on sound scientific and technical reasoning and not founded upon a world political view that demands that the events of Sept 11/01 be blamed upon a power hungry elite.

However I also recognize that a large portion of the American people (including you it would certainly appear) would have trouble multiplying 5 X 21 without a calculator let alone be able to understand the difference between the two approachs.
See the bolded bit ? You have a choice. It's that or it's all of America forever.
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*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

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Old 9th March 2010, 12:14 AM   #551
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Wow...anybody notice that the name George Bush re-entered the news today ? That's odd isn't it ? It was like he had gone to live on 9/11 Island or something.

But no....it seems that he has great concerns for the future of Northern Ireland and has personally called the leader of the main British opposition party, one David Cameron to make his opinion known.

Is the sacrificial lamb being prepared for the slaughter ?
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* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

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Old 9th March 2010, 09:20 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
I better delete this one. Gotta walk easy around here. Lots of Truthers suspended in the last days. Would 70% be an overestimation ?
That's 70 percent of the whole movement.
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Old 15th March 2010, 02:13 AM   #553
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The information is not pertinent to the question asked

Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
And the phenomenon is explained very carefully in the report.

Chapter 12, NCSTAR 1-9 Vol2 p.602

'In Stage 1, the descent was slow and the acceleration was less than that of gravity. This stage
corresponds to the initial buckling of the exterior columns in the lower stories of the north
face, as seen in Figure 12–62
. By 1.75 s, the north face had descended approximately 7 ft.

In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration, as exterior column buckling
progressed and the columns provided negligible support to the upper portion of the north
face.
This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories (105 ft), the distance traveled
between times t = 1.75 s and t = 4.0 s

In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased somewhat as the upper portion of the north face
encountered resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below
. Between 4.0 s
and 5.4 s, the northwest corner fell an additional 130 ft. '

Note the sophistication and accuracy (and estimates for errors, completely absent from David Chandler's crude methodology, by comparison)

'It was difficult to detect the exact instant that the north wall began to collapse because of the resolution of
the video image and because, as columns buckled, vertical movement was initially very small. The
instant of initial movement was estimated by analyzing changes in the color of a pixel in the video recording over time. A single pixel close to the center of the north face roofline was selected and the
color of the pixel, expressed as values of hue, saturation, and brightness, was recorded for each frame
between 6.0 s and 7.8 s, where t = 0 s corresponds to the start of descent of the east penthouse (see Table
5-3). The brightness was found to provide the best indicator of change since the brightness of a pixel
representing the sky above the building had a value of 100 percent while a pixel representing the roofline
of the building (granite façade) had a brightness of roughly 60 percent for the pixel selected. The
brightness of the selected pixel, expressed as a percent, is plotted versus time in Figure 12–75. From 6.0 s
to 6.9 s, the brightness is seen to oscillate around a value of 60 percent indicating no vertical movement.
Beginning at roughly 6.9 s the brightness increases irreversibly to a value of 100 percent at which time
the pixel under study represents the sky. Thus, the relative time at which the roofline began to move was
estimated as 6.9 s. The time when the roofline dropped from view behind the buildings in the foreground
was 12.3 s. Thus, the time the roofline took to fall 18 stories was approximately 5.4 s. '

Which is 40% longer than freefall acceleration would have produced.....

Oh, and they backed it all up with numerous other techniques, including seismic analysis and of course the LS-DYNA model....
Much respect for digging up this information, however, you have not answered my question.

I asked..."Where did NIST explain the RAMIFICATIONS of free fall"

What you did is you showed me that they admitted free fall occured (which they should have done in the beginning)--not how they incorporated it. I have the final report saved to my desktop. The best I can find is they say its consistent with their structural analysis. I think we can all agree that is a cop out. I don't see how they made this connection. IMO this was a loose end that NIST just decided to let go...same as with the mysterious "kink" that developed near column 76. Btw, this little free fall check was not performed until after severe public scrutiny of their draft report released in August (2008). NIST was criticized for denying any free fall whatsoever (bad practice made worse by the fact they used an average acceleration to debunk it rather than looking at instantaneous acceleration). I think anybody (scientist/engineer) who has thoroughly researched the matter would agree with me that NIST could not explain the free fall.

Theres lots of things in that final report that make it seem NIST just wanted to be done with it...like claiming that the severity of the uncontrolled fires would have taken down even an undamaged WTC 7...but anyways...

The facts that I have posted can be verified using NIST's draft report, Final Report (includes my last statement about the fires), NIST updated Q&A web page and also videos of the public Q&A.

If I need to pull up the links, I have no problem with that. It is getting late now.

Peace...
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Old 15th March 2010, 02:30 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
Much respect for digging up this information, however, you have not answered my question.

I asked..."Where did NIST explain the RAMIFICATIONS of free fall"

What you did is you showed me that they admitted free fall occured (which they should have done in the beginning)
Which they did in the beginning. In the draft report they implied and stated the curtain wall fell unimpeded. (what does that mean btw?)

They didn't think they needed to spell it out, so they didn't.

Quote:
--not how they incorporated it. I have the final report saved to my desktop.
Now go and read it. Have a structural or civil engineer explain the parts that are beyond your understanding. It is rather straightforward.

Quote:
The best I can find is they say its consistent with their structural analysis. I think we can all agree that is a cop out.
umm no. Sorry. Don't agree, and neither do 99.5% of the rest of the structural engineers in the world. Feel free to find the literature which agrees with you. I"ll wait for it.

Quote:
I don't see how they made this connection. IMO this was a loose end that NIST just decided to let go...same as with the mysterious "kink" that developed near column 76. Btw, this little free fall check was not performed until after severe public scrutiny of their draft report released in August (2008).
here comes the twoofer talking points which are lies...

Quote:
NIST was criticized for denying any free fall whatsoever (bad practice made worse by the fact they used an average acceleration to debunk it rather than looking at instantaneous acceleration). I think anybody (scientist/engineer) who has thoroughly researched the matter would agree with me that NIST could not explain the free fall.
Sorry.. NIST explains why and how the curtain wall fell in freefall. Sorry you dont' understand it.


Quote:
Theres lots of things in that final report that make it seem NIST just wanted to be done with it...like claiming that the severity of the uncontrolled fires would have taken down even an undamaged WTC 7...but anyways...
Great. Tehn I know you can produce dozens of (if not hundreds) peer reviewed engineering journal articles from places like JEM, Fracture, Fire Engineering to support your claims.

Right?

Quote:
The facts that I have posted can be verified using NIST's draft report, Final Report (includes my last statement about the fires), NIST updated Q&A web page and also videos of the public Q&A.
Yawn.

Quote:
If I need to pull up the links, I have no problem with that. It is getting late now.

Peace...
please do. Pretty please. Post the parts of the NIST report which you say are gibberish, and then please post the rebuttals from all over the world. I eagerly await your thesis.
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Old 15th March 2010, 08:57 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
Much respect for digging up this information, however, you have not answered my question.

I asked..."Where did NIST explain the RAMIFICATIONS of free fall"
Short answer; the columns buckled. You don't have to take them apart for their carrying capacity to be negligible if their loads aren't concentric. Then again for people who know this there's no such surprise. You people make a fuss over the most mundane crap. :\
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Old 15th March 2010, 10:14 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
Short answer; the columns buckled. You don't have to take them apart for their carrying capacity to be negligible if their loads aren't concentric. Then again for people who know this there's no such surprise. You people make a fuss over the most mundane crap. :\

You could say the same for any building thats ever collapsed. The support structures failed. The loads were not concentric...etc. This is not a justification of free fall. Free fall is not just rapid collapse...it is the uppermost limit.
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Old 16th March 2010, 12:30 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
Much respect for digging up this information, however, you have not answered my question.

I asked..."Where did NIST explain the RAMIFICATIONS of free fall"
What ramifications? I wasn't aware there were any.

As for detailed explanation (a different matter I think) here is what they wrote under 'Global Collapse', Chapter 12, pp 586, 587, 588 NCSTAR 1-9 Vol 2

It explains the 'why'. I haven't seen any detailed, engineering-based refutation of this model and analysis - lots of blanket denials and hand-waving, of course, but anybody can say 'it couldn't have happened' without the burden of actually refuting the details.

In much the same way, a child can say 'rocket flew up into the sky' without having the foggiest idea of the details; a truther can say 'freefall = controlled demolition with the same deficit of facts and knowledge.

'Global Collapse
After the horizontal progression of column buckling in the core of WTC 7, the exterior columns buckled
at the lower floors, completing the global collapse sequence as follows:
• As the interior columns failed, the exterior columns on the west face buckled inward at the
lower floors as a result of floor pull-in forces due to the downward movement of the building
core. The floor connections to the columns had not failed in this region because there were no
fires observed on the west side on Floors 10 through 14 at any time during the day, and the
intact floors were able to pull the exterior columns inward.
• Exterior column buckling began at Column 14, adjacent to the debris impact zone near the
southwest corner, between Floors 10 and 12. The exterior columns adjacent to the seven
columns severed in the southwest region due to the collapse of WTC 1 were the first to
buckle because additional load was distributed to them following the debris impact damage.
• The south and west exterior columns buckled first, followed by the north and east face
columns.
• All exterior columns buckled between approximately Floors 7 and 14.
• Once column support was lost in the lower floors, the remaining exterior structure above
began to fall vertically as a single unit.
The buckling of the interior columns in the global collapse analysis was followed by the buckling of the
exterior columns.
Figure 12–60 shows a schematic view of Floor 8 that highlights the exterior columns that were used to
track the column load history for each face. Also noted on the figure is the debris impact zone from the
collapse of WTC 1, which shows the southwest columns that were severed. Loads were extracted just
above Floor 8 for three columns per face and were averaged to generate the loads shown in Figure 12–61.
Figure 12–61 shows that selected exterior column forces increased as gravity loads were applied
(compressive loads are negative). As indicated at 4.5 s (LS-DYNA calculation time), there was an
increase in compressive forces on the west and south faces of the building after debris impact damage was
applied. As Columns 79, 80, and 81 buckled and the floor systems failed on the east side of the building
(at 15 s to 16 s), column forces reduced in the north and east faces. The west face column forces were
dominated by the forces in Column 14, which was adjacent to the severed columns in the southwest
corner. At 21.5 s, exterior column buckling began at Column 14, between Floors 10 and 12. The exterior
columns adjacent to the (seven) columns severed in the southwest region due to the collapse of WTC 1
were the first to buckle due to the increased forces in these columns following the debris impact damage.
The south and west face columns buckled first, followed by the north and east face columns.
The floor connections to the west face columns had not failed above Floor 9 because no fires were
observed on the west side of Floors 10 through 14. The intact floor framing pulled the exterior columns
inward as the interior columns fell downward during the horizontal progression of failure stage and the
floors pulled on the exterior columns.
As the interior columns buckled across the building, the exterior
columns were left laterally unsupported normal to the east, south, and north faces. Exterior column
buckling spread from column to column, as loads were redistributed, until all the exterior columns had
buckled between Floors 7 and 14 within approximately 2 s
.
When all the exterior columns had buckled, as shown in Figure 12–62, the entire building above the
buckled-column region moved downward as a single unit, resulting in the global collapse of WTC 7.
Detailed views of the lower exterior column buckling are shown in Figure 12–63. '
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Old 16th March 2010, 01:56 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
Free fall is not just rapid collapse...it is the uppermost limit.
Free fall, in this context, is a meaningless truther mantra. The basis of the mantra was the belief that the twin towers fell at freefall acceleration, which was incorrect, coupled with the belief that buildings demolished using explosives fall at freefall acceleration, which is also incorrect. Since freefall acceleration isn't an indicator of explosive demolition, the whole argument is doubly stupid.

Dave
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Old 16th March 2010, 03:04 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Free fall, in this context, is a meaningless truther mantra. The basis of the mantra was the belief that the twin towers fell at freefall acceleration, which was incorrect, coupled with the belief that buildings demolished using explosives fall at freefall acceleration, which is also incorrect. Since freefall acceleration isn't an indicator of explosive demolition, the whole argument is doubly stupid.

Dave
Can I copy-pasta this?
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Old 16th March 2010, 03:22 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
Can I copy-pasta this?
You want to spell it out in Alphabetti-Spaghetti? Be my guest.

Dave
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