ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Dave Thomas , debate , richard gage

Reply
Old 22nd August 2010, 01:58 AM   #401
fourtoe
Graduate Poster
 
fourtoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,029
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
I hope you get on Colobus.
The phone meltdown kicked me off!
__________________
***My old username used to be knife fight colobus, but it was totally too long.***
-Here's my YouTube Channel where I either debate crazies (Kirk Cameron, Westboro Baptist Church, Truthers etc.) or play Zelda
-I sooo have a blog.
-The thread for discussing/reviewing and posting any 911 related debates one can find!
fourtoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 01:58 AM   #402
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
'' The phones are melting down '' Thank you God,
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 01:59 AM   #403
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by knife fight colobus View Post
The phone meltdown kicked me off!
No jrefer's got on then ?
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 01:59 AM   #404
Arus808
Philosopher
 
Arus808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
Were you the last caller?
__________________
Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato.

“Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.”
“Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.”
Arus808 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:00 AM   #405
Ninja R
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 29
That was four hours? Didn't feel like it, although I missed 25 minutes for a phone call.

Excellent stuff tonight. Honestly, I don't think it changed anyone's minds -- you could tell by the callers that they still believe there are many unaddressed issues.

I just really wanted some no planers to call in.
Ninja R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:03 AM   #406
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 21,878
Originally Posted by knife fight colobus View Post
The phone meltdown kicked me off!
The melting temperature of phones is unattainable without nanothermite. The Truthers were just about to blow the lid off the whole conspiracy until the government stepped in.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:03 AM   #407
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
Originally Posted by Ninja R View Post
Excellent stuff tonight. Honestly, I don't think it changed anyone's minds -- you could tell by the callers that they still believe there are many unaddressed issues.
This is actually good news for us.

It shows, once again, there is nobody "on the fence." Nobody at all.

Also, since all those listening are basically dyed-in-the-wool Truthers, if anyone's mind is changed, it's a win for rationality. I expect it to stay status quo, of course -- never once thought this debate would go anywhere new. It's quite surreal talking to these people in debate.
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:04 AM   #408
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 21,878
Originally Posted by Ninja R View Post
That was four hours? Didn't feel like it, although I missed 25 minutes for a phone call.

Excellent stuff tonight. Honestly, I don't think it changed anyone's minds -- you could tell by the callers that they still believe there are many unaddressed issues.

I just really wanted some no planers to call in.
I thought one of them was a no-planer. He talked about no jet fuel outside the building and I was thinking, "Where are you going with this one?" (As I did with most of those callers actually).

Do you know if that's where he was going?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:06 AM   #409
Arus808
Philosopher
 
Arus808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
he just wanted to know why the jet fuel didn't spill out side of the building and the fire burning it as it did.

He forgets that the momentum of the plane would have sent the jetfuel in one direction, so why would it flow "back" out of the building?

Not one of the callers had a pointed question for Gage, which was disappointing since I thought it was supposed to even out.
__________________
Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato.

“Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.”
“Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.”
Arus808 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:09 AM   #410
Ninja R
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I thought one of them was a no-planer. He talked about no jet fuel outside the building and I was thinking, "Where are you going with this one?" (As I did with most of those callers actually).

Do you know if that's where he was going?
I don't think so. He referred to the jet actually hitting the building. Whether or not that could be a pod or *shadow thingy*, I don't know -- but I don't think so. I see what you mean, though. I guess by "no planer," I really mean folks who think it was the Death Star's directed energy weapon.
Ninja R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:10 AM   #411
Arus808
Philosopher
 
Arus808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
Well for those who want to catch the debate again, C2C is going through their repeat at this hour, so tune in, if you missed

And this is my cue to bid everyone a good night
__________________
Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato.

“Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.”
“Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.”
Arus808 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:10 AM   #412
Sam.I.Am
Illuminator
 
Sam.I.Am's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,627
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I thought one of them was a no-planer. He talked about no jet fuel outside the building and I was thinking, "Where are you going with this one?" (As I did with most of those callers actually).

Do you know if that's where he was going?
That's what I thought, why bring it up otherwise?

Anyway, good job there Dave. The end result was about what was to be expected given the format you had to work with but you got some good information out there. Pity that it won't change anyones mind but it was fun to listen to so I guess that I got what I wanted out of it.

They just started to rerun the first hour here so I'll get the part I missed recording at first. I'll post it here once I clean it up as well as I can, there were some parts that the internet feed couldn't keep up with.
__________________
"Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"...

About my avatar.
Sam.I.Am is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:11 AM   #413
fourtoe
Graduate Poster
 
fourtoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,029
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
No jrefer's got on then ?
No.
Originally Posted by Arus808 View Post
Were you the last caller?
What sucked was that I finally called in to a line that wasn't busy, it just kept ringing. But then I heard the same busy signal sound as that heard on the show...I never talked to a phone screener so I doubt it would have gotten on had the phones not messed up.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The melting temperature of phones is unattainable without nanothermite. The Truthers were just about to blow the lid off the whole conspiracy until the government stepped in.
I did use my nanothermite-painted phone to call in so.....
__________________
***My old username used to be knife fight colobus, but it was totally too long.***
-Here's my YouTube Channel where I either debate crazies (Kirk Cameron, Westboro Baptist Church, Truthers etc.) or play Zelda
-I sooo have a blog.
-The thread for discussing/reviewing and posting any 911 related debates one can find!
fourtoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:12 AM   #414
AJM8125
Potsing whiled runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,224


Well done Mr. Thomas.
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:15 AM   #415
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
This is actually good news for us.

It shows, once again, there is nobody "on the fence." Nobody at all.

Also, since all those listening are basically dyed-in-the-wool Truthers, if anyone's mind is changed, it's a win for rationality. I expect it to stay status quo, of course -- never once thought this debate would go anywhere new. It's quite surreal talking to these people in debate.
lol
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:17 AM   #416
fourtoe
Graduate Poster
 
fourtoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,029
The new thing for me was Niels Harritt who I thought would talk the most on thermite...I feel kind of naive thinking that he would be more technical in retrospect.

What really sucked was that Johnson made some specific claims about Harritt's paper that I wish Harritt would have had more time to respond to.

I also enjoyed Johnson calling Harritt out on publishing his work in a vanity rag.
__________________
***My old username used to be knife fight colobus, but it was totally too long.***
-Here's my YouTube Channel where I either debate crazies (Kirk Cameron, Westboro Baptist Church, Truthers etc.) or play Zelda
-I sooo have a blog.
-The thread for discussing/reviewing and posting any 911 related debates one can find!
fourtoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:18 AM   #417
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post


Well done Mr. Thomas.
Seconded
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:24 AM   #418
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by knife fight colobus View Post
The new thing for me was Niels Harritt who I thought would talk the most on thermite...I feel kind of naive thinking that he would be more technical in retrospect.

What really sucked was that Johnson made some specific claims about Harritt's paper that I wish Harritt would have had more time to respond to.

I also enjoyed Johnson calling Harritt out on publishing his work in a vanity rag.
Even though it's not true...(see hyperlink)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=328 hyperlink
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

Last edited by bill smith; 22nd August 2010 at 02:28 AM.
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:36 AM   #419
fourtoe
Graduate Poster
 
fourtoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,029
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Even though it's not true...(see hyperlink)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=328 hyperlink
But what Johnson pointed out specifically is that Harritt just paid to get his article published.
__________________
***My old username used to be knife fight colobus, but it was totally too long.***
-Here's my YouTube Channel where I either debate crazies (Kirk Cameron, Westboro Baptist Church, Truthers etc.) or play Zelda
-I sooo have a blog.
-The thread for discussing/reviewing and posting any 911 related debates one can find!
fourtoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:50 AM   #420
pgimeno
Illuminator
 
pgimeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,204
Originally Posted by Arus808 View Post
Well for those who want to catch the debate again, C2C is going through their repeat at this hour, so tune in, if you missed

And this is my cue to bid everyone a good night
Does anyone have any idea when it will be repeated again? I missed the first fragment of this repetition.

(ETA: and the whole live show too)
__________________
Ask questions. Demand answers. But be prepared to accept the answers, or don't ask questions in the first place.
pgimeno is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:56 AM   #421
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,893
Somebody here (SamIAm?) is editing it and will put up a downloadable file.
__________________
A møøse ønce bit my sister
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 02:58 AM   #422
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by knife fight colobus View Post
But what Johnson pointed out specifically is that Harritt just paid to get his article published.
Just as many other scientists are doing today at Bentham. Believe me they wouldn't be wasting their money on a peer-review that is less than bulletproof . Their caareers depend on it.

Just bacause streams of debunkers on the jref line up to say that Bentham is a phoney does not make it true.
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 03:00 AM   #423
DaveThomasNMSR
Muse
 
DaveThomasNMSR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 861
Thanks for the props and suggestions. I had no net access the whole debate - I call the NWO.

Anyway, looks like I was able to upload the entire Institute of Theoretical and Experimental 9/11 Physics right before the debate, and right before my router went wanky.

Loved that Box Boy Bingo!

G'night, all!
Cheers, Dave
DaveThomasNMSR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 03:08 AM   #424
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
Thanks for the props and suggestions. I had no net access the whole debate - I call the NWO.

Anyway, looks like I was able to upload the entire Institute of Theoretical and Experimental 9/11 Physics right before the debate, and right before my router went wanky.

Loved that Box Boy Bingo!

G'night, all!
Cheers, Dave
Well done Dave. It can't have been easy.

The take-away message for me was:-

'' The phones are melting down '' Thank you God,
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 03:10 AM   #425
Tony Szamboti
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,963
Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
This is actually good news for us.

It shows, once again, there is nobody "on the fence." Nobody at all.

Also, since all those listening are basically dyed-in-the-wool Truthers, if anyone's mind is changed, it's a win for rationality. I expect it to stay status quo, of course -- never once thought this debate would go anywhere new. It's quite surreal talking to these people in debate.
What I find surreal is your not admitting your two major errors in our debate.

It is now proven that the factor of safety for the core columns was 3.00 to 1 for the loads they actually had on them. You insisted it was significantly less than this and tried to say that I was overestimating the energy they would absorb in a collision. Of course, in the Missing Jolt paper we don't even get into the factor of safety and simply use the known yield strength and sizes of the columns to determine their energy dissipation, so it isn't clear why you even made this comment other than to try and create the impression that I was wrong about the column strength. The reality is that you were wrong on this point in every possible way.

The tilt in WTC 1 was not anywhere near the 8 degrees that you portrayed it to be when the upper section started descending. In fact, it was provably no more than 1 degree and there is no chance the columns could have missed each other. This has been ascertained using the simple geometry you suggested.

When are you going to publicly admit that you erred in these two cases due to your insistence on assuming NIST was correct? Remember you said "NIST doesn't make those kinds of mistakes". Well it turns out they do, and you need to be a man and admit it.

Last edited by Tony Szamboti; 22nd August 2010 at 03:29 AM.
Tony Szamboti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 03:10 AM   #426
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 21,944
This was a confirmation of Mackey's "ignore 'em" stance. Gage threw so much crap up against the wall that Dave was unable refute all of it. Sadly, I score a win for the truthers.

FWIW, I personally know the first caller who got through. To give you some idea of his critical thinking skills, he believes that there are human skeletons buried in coal seams millions of years old. I can only imagine his conversation with the screener.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 03:19 AM   #427
Scott Sommers
Illuminator
 
Scott Sommers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,807
Congratulations Dave. I was unable to catch the debate, but the effort is respected.

Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Just as many other scientists are doing today at Bentham. Believe me they wouldn't be wasting their money on a peer-review that is less than bulletproof . Their caareers depend on it.

Just bacause streams of debunkers on the jref line up to say that Bentham is a phoney does not make it true.
Got your PhD from a Crackjack box? In fact, hardly anyone publishes in these things. I just went through the Bentham Open Applied Linguistics Journal and you can too. Then you won't have to make things up to talk about topics you don't know anything about.

Let me tell ya there BS, I've published in open access journals and there is no review process at all. My article even had the typos I left in when it went on the net. The journal actually put typos into it and wouldn't change them when I asked. Do I have any reasons to beliebe Betham is just as bad? Sure. Just the fact that Dr. Steve got the boot from his school and no one else will go anywhere near him shows you how well respected this work is.

I doubt you care. So why am I wasting my time?
__________________
I've seen it here and in several other places that there is no Illuminati. That doesn't even make sense. There's a Wikipedia entry that talks about it. I'm not saying that everything on Wikipedia is true, but if you read it, it's just really clear how the Illuminati controls the world.

Last edited by Scott Sommers; 22nd August 2010 at 03:22 AM.
Scott Sommers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 03:20 AM   #428
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 36,064
Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
Thanks for the props and suggestions. I had no net access the whole debate - I call the NWO.

Anyway, looks like I was able to upload the entire Institute of Theoretical and Experimental 9/11 Physics right before the debate, and right before my router went wanky.

Loved that Box Boy Bingo!

G'night, all!
Cheers, Dave
Cheers, Dave, and well done!



I think the debate went really well for you.

I was actually pleasantly surprised with the host and the format. It was good that he gave you equal time, and giving you both half an hour individually was very fair (especially since you got to go second and address Gage's points ).
__________________
Challenge your thoughts.
Don't believe everything you think.
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 03:33 AM   #429
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwan View Post
Congratulations Dave. I was unable to catch the debate, but the effort is respected.



Got your PhD from a Crackjack box? In fact, hardly anyone publishes in these things. I just went through the Bentham Open Applied Linguistics Journal and you can too. Then you won't have to make things up to talk about topics you don't know anything about.

Let me tell ya there BS, I've published in open access journals and there is no review process at all. My article even had the typos I left in when it went on the net. The journal actually put typos into it and wouldn't change them when I asked. Do I have any reasons to beliebe Betham is just as bad? Sure. Just the fact that Dr. Steve got the boot from his school and no one else will go anywhere near him shows you how well respected this work is.

I doubt you care. So why am I wasting my time?
Do you have a link to the article so that I can see the quality and thereby assess the kind of open-access scientific journal that you used ?
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 03:41 AM   #430
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
This was a confirmation of Mackey's "ignore 'em" stance. Gage threw so much crap up against the wall that Dave was unable refute all of it. Sadly, I score a win for the truthers.

FWIW, I personally know the first caller who got through. To give you some idea of his critical thinking skills, he believes that there are human skeletons buried in coal seams millions of years old. I can only imagine his conversation with the screener.
Another win for the Truth you mean. I can assure you that we will win virtually every debate from here on in. That's why I think all prominent debunkers will withdraw into the shodows like Mackey and refuse to debate.

Stonewalling is the future for your guys. Furthermore I suspct that the jref 9/11 subforum will be shut down in the near future along with other sceptic forums. They are basically an embarrassment to the perps now.
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

Last edited by bill smith; 22nd August 2010 at 04:05 AM.
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 03:47 AM   #431
Sam.I.Am
Illuminator
 
Sam.I.Am's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,627
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Somebody here (SamIAm?) is editing it and will put up a downloadable file.
It's looking like it might be easier than I thought it would be. The software I used broke it up into mostly either the shows or the commercials. News is really the only thing I'll have to cut out (to keep the size down) though I will keep the bumpers in there so people won't think that I cut out stuff out of bias.
__________________
"Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"...

About my avatar.
Sam.I.Am is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 04:01 AM   #432
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 21,944
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Another win for the Truth you mean.
No, that's not what I mean. Don't put words in my keyboard.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 04:11 AM   #433
Tony Szamboti
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,963
The NMSR site is in error

Dave,

I went to your NMSR site per the link provided on this thread and have to say I was surprised to see that you had Dr. Bazant's early hypothesis of a 31 g dynamic load posted there. This has been shown to be impossible by those arguing for the present official hypothesis as well as those arguing against it.

First, it isn't possible for an impacting object with a factor of safety of 3.00 to 5.00 to transmit a dynamic load of 31 g's. The upper section would have come apart and that would have been the end of the pile driver.

Second, Dr. Bazant is off by a factor of ten on the axial stiffness of the columns in the tower. Their stiffness was 7.1 GN/m not 71 GN/m. Maybe it was a misplaced decimal point, but nonetheless his stiffness estimate is seriously erroneous.

Third, your test of loose rice in a bag does not legitimately represent loose rubble as the bag provides a restraint causing the rice to act somewhat in unison, which would not be true of loose rubble developed in a building collision.

With the real axial stiffness of 7.1 GN/m the largest dynamic load possible was 11 g's and even then, with the full mass of the upper section participating, the impacting structure could not survive that and thus could not transmit it. This is not to say that a dynamic load was not possible but it would have to be a lower value to conform to the observation of the upper section remaining somewhat intact past the first several floor collisions.

However, to have a dynamic load the the impacting object needs to decelerate at a rate greater than 1 g and the amplification depends on how many multiples of g the deceleration value is. There was no deceleration in the descent of the upper section of WTC 1 and the perimeter walls of the upper section were stiff enough to transmit it if there had been any. Thus the lack of deceleration or constant acceleration of the upper section proves there was no dynamic load.

Apparently, in an article to be published in the Sept. 2010 issue of the Journal of Engineering Mechanics, Dr. Bazant himself has finally entered the debate on this issue and attempts to argue that the velocity drop would have been imperceptible at the roofline. His opinion is refuted by every single Verinage demolition, where deceleration of the upper section does occur and is very perceptible and measureable at the roofline.

The evidence is that there was no dynamic load in the collapse of WTC 1. Ryan Mackey recognized this in our debate on Hardfire and tried to argue that the upper section fell on the floors due to the tilt causing misalignment of the upper and lower columns. Unfortunately for his argument, it has been shown that the tilt was not nearly significant enough to cause the columns to miss each other, and there should have been a perceptible jolt if the collapse was natural. The only reason there wouldn't be is if the column strength below was being largely removed in an unnatural way.

Mod WarningPlease keep on-topic. This thread is about the actual debate. There are plenty of other threads to discuss specific 9/11 issues.
Posted By:Gaspode

Last edited by Gaspode; 22nd August 2010 at 11:46 AM.
Tony Szamboti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 04:19 AM   #434
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
Congrats to the debaters, but by god these debates now make me feel sad...it is as if someone stuck them in a "Groundhog Day" scenario, and everyday they (the truthers) wake up to 2006 again.

TAM
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 04:29 AM   #435
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 21,878
Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
Thanks for the props and suggestions. I had no net access the whole debate - I call the NWO.

Anyway, looks like I was able to upload the entire Institute of Theoretical and Experimental 9/11 Physics right before the debate, and right before my router went wanky.

Loved that Box Boy Bingo!

G'night, all!
Cheers, Dave
Good work, today! I enjoyed listening to it although I think the format of introducing more and more speakers (including the callers, especially the callers!) made the talk become a bit frayed at the edges and lose focus.

When things were more focused such as on Gage's attempts to explain massive beams being hurled by gigantic explosions which were heard by hundreds of people yet...er... really quiet because it was produced by nanothermite (oh and regular explosives as were heard by the firemen on the telephone etc...etc...) his contradictions became obvious. And you did well persuing him on that. I think all the advert breaks unfortunately cluttered things up too much.

The main thing I got from the debate is that Gage is more of a conspiracy theorist than I had thought.

His usual routine of trying to be as conservative as possible in his accusations and trying to make a case of "reasonable doubt" completely and unexpectedly fell apart when he started rattling off all of those "false flag" attacks (USS Liberty, Lusitania, Pearl Harbor...etc...etc...). That was a bit of a new side to Gage that I hadn't seen before (even though it was obviously there somewhere).

Cheers!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

Last edited by angrysoba; 22nd August 2010 at 04:32 AM. Reason: examples of "false flags"
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 06:34 AM   #436
Myriad
Hyperthetical
Moderator
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 12,814
Since I missed the debate, perhaps someone can fill me in... what proposition regarding a future public, legislative or judicial decision was debated?

Surely all those people going to all that effort wouldn't have been so feckless as to attempt to "debate" about past events.

Respectfully,
Myriad
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 07:04 AM   #437
Grizzly Bear
このマスクによっ
 
Grizzly Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,764
I missed the last leg of the show because of how late the C2C program runs in my area but the first 2 hours I caught didn't address much any proposed legal or legislative measures. I can't speak for the rest to be honest...

Originally Posted by Arus808 View Post
ian is asking how much thermite;

Harritt - dont know.
Gage of course said earlier in the show, as much as 3 to 10 tons of it...


Originally Posted by Arus808 View Post
Neils Harritt says that the Windsor/MAdrid tower, that the Concrete collapsed and the steel remaineD!!!!!!!
Dammit!!! I missed it Anyway gotta listen to it later, did anybody explain tho them that the windsor tower had a concrete core? (Please say yes!!!! )

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Windsor Tower:

Harrit says the concrete collapsed and the steel remained.

Looks like again, i'll have to play catch up... I have to admit that claim is not just bizarre if true, but a first

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
"Small fires"! That's a line!
Which building did he bring that up for? Just curious

Heh and first time in history... looks like it's true you can read 'em all like open books.... I'm surprised it took over two hours for Gage to bring that up.
__________________

Last edited by Grizzly Bear; 22nd August 2010 at 07:31 AM.
Grizzly Bear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 07:35 AM   #438
TexasJack
Penultimate Amazing
 
TexasJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,906
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Just as many other scientists are doing today at Bentham. Believe me they wouldn't be wasting their money on a peer-review that is less than bulletproof . Their caareers depend on it.

Just bacause streams of debunkers on the jref line up to say that Bentham is a phoney does not make it true.
Apparently nobody is wasting their money Bill, since nothing has been published at all this year, and very little the year before.

http://www.bentham.org/open/tocpj/openaccess2.htm

Last edited by TexasJack; 22nd August 2010 at 07:37 AM.
TexasJack is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 08:17 AM   #439
CompusMentus
Waiting for the Worms
 
CompusMentus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,561
Any link to a recording of the show? Please.


Compus
__________________
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earth-bound misfit
CompusMentus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2010, 08:21 AM   #440
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,893
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Surely all those people going to all that effort wouldn't have been so feckless as to attempt to "debate" about past events.
Sorry to say, Myriad, they haven't got a feck.
__________________
A møøse ønce bit my sister
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:58 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.