The ideomotor effect and mediumnity

kerikiwi said:

No, I have not investigated it or read about it. I know enough about the brain and the universe to not even entertain the idea of a soul existing separate from the brain. Consciousness is an artefact of the brain and does not exist separately from it. When your brain ceases to function you cease to exist, you don't emigrate.

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Then it's never too late to learn about Galileo. Surely you've heard of him before?

Apology said:

Then it's never too late to learn about Galileo. Surely you've heard of him before?

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Your point?

kerikiwi said:

Your point?

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That if you already know about Galileo, then you've already read about or investigated the issue of whether or not the sun revolves around the earth, and therefore that's why you don't need to read about or investigate the issue any further, should some crazy person suggest that the sun revolves around the earth and not the other way around?

In my original post I used the words "read about it" or "investigate it", which covers almost all the bases in regards to commonly known facts, so if you want to come up with an analogy of something that you would automatically shout "NOT!" to just to be contrary (as Charles sees us) it has to be something you haven't read about or investigated. Otherwise you're shouting "NOT!" for a good reason, rather than just being contrary, which was my whole point to Charles.

From reading Charles' posts, he seems to think that we're negative for arbitrary reasons. Also we like to take people's cherished beliefs from them because we're just mean. Also we gnaw the bones of children under bridges.

Still arguing that black is white I see, Charles. Still insulting and making unsubstantiated and slanderous allegations against people who have dared to question your silly and totally unsupported beliefs. Still wilfully refusing to learn anything from people who know a damn sight more about the subjects you're wittering on about than you do.

I'm sorry you got suspended from your favourite forum but, honestly, what did you expect would happen? You invited a boatload of intelligent sceptics to a forum which was clearly set up by and for the sort of people who are willing to give credence to ridiculous notions purely because they would like them to be true. Did you really expect that they would be able to give intelligent and sensible answers and rebuttals to our polite questions and arguments when you yourself had so abjectly failed to do so here? Did you really not expect them to blame the person who was responsible for exposing them to those questions and arguments for their discomfiture?

Charles, what you did was right out of a Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode. You said some magic words and opened a portal in the Past Life forum to another dimension and skeptical demons came marching in to raise a little hell. It's kind of sad there is no Buffy in Past Life Forum land to vanquish them.

Still, your suspension seems harsh. It isn't that you lost your faith, you just made friends with the wrong crowd on the internet. I'm registered but never posted over there and I'm tempted to protest your suspension. That probably won't help your cause I suspect. I'm certain I could go to a snake handling website and invite all the loonies to this site and no one will suspend me. The truth is I'd be thanked. As you can see we need more snake handlers and reincarnation believers to mock question in depth.

Since you're here I have a question. I noticed a post of yours when you met Jesus in a past life and used his aramaic name. Do you know any other aramaic words? Maybe next time you have a vision you can reach into your pocket and grab your to do list in aramaic. If you can write "pick up the laundry," or "get some vegetables after work" in aramaic we would be impressed. If it was latin that would be OK as well.

Maybe I should be off to give Carol a piece of my mind for giving you the bum's rush.

There are 8 paragraphs of poor me, self serving nonsense about Carols forum, how well meaning you are and how narrow minded we all are before the subject matter in the thread title is addressed and then, only fleetingly. If you want debate stop flinging the XXXX around.

Brevity Charles, brevity.

Hi Olowkow,

ETA: did you ever get around to viewing the videos of the ideomotor effect we posted? I posted the one with Derren Brown.

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Yes, I did... At leat to one of them. Did you by any chance get round to seeing anything about Chico Xavier's work? Could indeed the eyes be a necessary instrument in the use of the Ouija? There are just too many questions for one person to answer. I am not boo-hooing at all. I did not know quite what to expect when I came here, but yes, I was willing to engage. And either we can do so in a friendly and polite manner or indeed, as one of you suggested, I can just give up.

My "fallible memory" created some doubt in my mind as to whether that friend of mine who's cousin's brother had died had his finger on the glass when it spelled out his name. How there can be an alternation in who of the four people with their fingers on the glass is predominating in each response remains a mystery to me though. As would the symbolism of the "spiral", or the "one in four" correct answer concerning the piece of paper with the symbol of the cross. Whatever conclusion we might reach, the subconscious mind still remains a formidable instrument. What a pity if it should all go to waste and hold no continuity...

I am not, as you seem to also be thinking, in need of associating my "simple life" to any "grander picture". As I have told you all, I have my house, I have my work and I have my family, and live a perfectly happy life.

In whatever purpose I set myself out to doing, based, yes, on my own personal experiences and my own personal beliefs, my motivation was to shed some knowledge and some food for thought. I believe I may have been successful at least in this respect in my little incursion over here. And if this is so, then I can consider my work done. I must say, however, that neither of us have changed each others' minds. My doubts still continue, and despite what you all keep on claiming, I believe it is very possible that yours might have too...

My kindest regards to all of you (and I really do mean it. Please stop jumping to conclusions prior to knowing the facts).

Charles

Charles Boden said:

In whatever purpose I set myself out to doing, based, yes, on my own personal experiences and my own personal beliefs, my motivation was to shed some knowledge and some food for thought. I believe I may have been successful at least in this respect in my little incursion over here.

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Once again, your belief is wrong. You have provided no food for thought. I am prepared to accept you have shed some knowledge, as it would explain your posts here containing none if you've dropped it elsewhere. Have you considered checking down the back of the sofa?

You have pitched up with anecdotes and beliefs in utter nonsense. This is not new or unfamiliar to anyone on this forum. Even your "oh the mean skeptics are being horrible to me" routine is utterly banal and predictable. Heck, I predicted it. I guess you should start worshipping me.

And ... he ignores me again.

Charles Boden said:

Hi Olowkow,

Yes, I did... At leat to one of them. Did you by any chance get round to seeing anything about Chico Xavier's work?

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Yes.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6456867#post6456867

I found nothing more than fan sites. No evidence for reincarnation or that he ever solved any crimes. I believe he was well liked. Perhaps you have a link that would be more enlightening.

Are you familiar with Sylvia Browne?

Welcome back, Charles. Nobody insulted you or threatened you, and nobody wishes any harm to come to you or anyone else. Hopefully you'll refrain from unfounded accusations this time round. I didn't go to that other forum; sorry to hear you were suspended.

All we are asking for is evidence rather than blind belief. If you are happy believing that well-known, natural phenomena must have a paranormal cause that's up to you; but you cannot be surprised if sceptics do not believe. There is no evidence for paranormal causes and there is substantial evidence for natural explanations.

I notice that dlorde is currently at the PLF site, and has been given this paper to read:
http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_22_3_haraldsson.pdf

I read it, and I became curious about its author, Erlendur Haraldsson. Charles, have you ever heard of Sai Baba?

http://sathyasaibaba.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/sathya-sai-baba-erlendur-haraldsson-robert-priddy/

Although Robert Priddy continually attempts to use Professor Erlendur Haraldsson’s name to push Anti-Sai Material, Erlendur Haraldsson is not Anti-Sai Baba (as confirmed in private email correspondence with Joe Moreno).

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Apology said:

There are some extremely serious researchers here. It just so happens that their independent research has led all of them to the same conclusion that past lives are bunk. Utter nonsense, in fact. Do you really think that none of us have ever heard of reincarnation, or seriously considered it? I personally was steeped in concepts like reincarnation when I was growing up. My own research into it led me to here:


Skeptic's Dictionary - Past Life Regression

Skeptic's Dictionary - Bridey Murphy

Skeptic's Dictionary - Bloxham Tapes

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Snipped....and nominated. I hope the OP addresses this post.

Charles Boden said:

Yes, I did... At leat to one of them. Did you by any chance get round to seeing anything about Chico Xavier's work? Could indeed the eyes be a necessary instrument in the use of the Ouija? There are just too many questions for one person to answer. I am not boo-hooing at all. I did not know quite what to expect when I came here, but yes, I was willing to engage. And either we can do so in a friendly and polite manner or indeed, as one of you suggested, I can just give up.

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The blindfolded Ouija experiment addresses whether or not the eyes are a necessary instrument in the use of Ouija. If the eyes are a necessary instrument, then the planchette will not move at all because the "spirits" or "psychic beings" or whatever claptrap will not be able to function without the eyes.

If they're so clever, they should know that nobody can see the board, and withhold their opinions that night. However, if you would get off your butt and try it, I think you'll find that the planchette does move, and moves to where the people sitting around the board expect it to, not to where it should actually go. That's provided you don't queer the experiment by announcing grandly that the Ouija can't function without the eyes, ergo the blindfold test is just silliness that won't work.

I know you won't try it though, because that would bust one of your dearly held beliefs all to shreds.

Sun Countess said:

Snipped....and nominated. I hope the OP addresses this post.

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Thank you so much I am honored.

tsig said:

Just do the test. Work the board blindfolded.

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Blindfolded, and shifted silentely to a random angle so that you don't know and can't guess where the letetr are.

Then you will understand why us debunker see the ouija as bunk.

PS: I did the experiment with friend this week. That is an extrem eye openner for the one open minded, although predictably the "medium" just said that me, the skepticv, chased all spirit away with my bad waves. (hihahahaha).

ETAETA, I fired an email to my friends to ask if I could post the video with their face masked.

Apology said:

If they're so clever, they should know that nobody can see the board, and withhold their opinions that night. However, if you would get off your butt and try it, I think you'll find that the planchette does move, and moves to where the people sitting around the board expect it to, not to where it should actually go. That's provided you don't queer the experiment by announcing grandly that the Ouija can't function without the eyes, ergo the blindfold test is just silliness that won't work.

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QFT. That is the whole point of the experience.

Charles Boden said:

The ideomotor effect and mediumnity

I honestly misinterpreted you all in that I thought there were some serious researchers amongst you, for all I have found in this forum are people hell-bent on just “debunking” anything that might be presented. You will no longer find me at Carol's forum, for I have been very understandably and rightly suspended, though I don't feel I should really be held responsible for all your appalling behaviors. I offered the link to her forum in good faith, and again you all made a shambles of it.
...

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Not quite sure how the title relates to the 'introduction', but like to think of myself as an honestly curious person (I'm not always serious), and rather than 'debunking', I like to look at the evidence and try to find a reasonable explanation if that's possible. Naturally, I have my own opinions of the phenomena, but that's why we use the scientific method - it's the best way we know to avoid individual bias affecting our conclusions.

I'm no expert, but perhaps it says something about our mutual approaches that you have been suspended from Carol's forum, while I and other JREF members continue to be active and have received considerable help and some useful references and links to information from members there. All it takes is a degree of respect for the people, whether or not you agree with their philosophy or beliefs.

Garrette said:

I'm debating whether addressing the problems in his claimed genealogical tree should be a criterion too.

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Charles, I went to a lot of trouble and some expense to investigate your genealogical claims. I don't want to derail this new thread, but could you please post your response to what I discovered on the old one?

Take your time, there's no hurry.

Charles Boden said:

The ideomotor effect and mediumnity

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Is mediumnity better or worse than mediocrity?

Charles Boden said:

I honestly misinterpreted you all in that I thought there were some serious researchers amongst you, for all I have found in this forum are people hell-bent on just “debunking” anything that might be presented.

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There are some serious researchers here. And some hell-bent debunkers. And some honest-to-goodness geniuses. And some utter fruiitcakes.

It's the internet Charles. Where have you been?

Charles Boden said:

You will no longer find me at Carol's forum, for I have been very understandably and rightly suspended, though I don't feel I should really be held responsible for all your appalling behaviors. I offered the link to her forum in good faith, and again you all made a shambles of it.

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Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war JREF!

Marcus Antonius was supposed to have said that. A bit before your time I suppose.

No, wait . . .

Charles Boden said:

I have not been replying for two main reasons. The first is lack of time, and I am only doing so now because we have the weekend ahead of us. The second is the tremendous regret I have already been feeling for having indicated Carol's forum to you all. There are many people over there whom I hold in great esteem, and who are now extremely upset with me and very rightly so.

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We would have found it anyway. We all have our own weejee boards. Nowhere is safe!

Charles Boden said:

As I said, I honestly thought there were more serious researchers amidst you all when I came here, not just “debunkers”. I offered Carol's forum in good faith as a means to attempt to explain many of the various questions that were being fired at me at a speed that I just simply could not keep up with, so I offered it in the thought and hope that it might provide food for thought and reflection. I honestly did not know what to expect when I came here, nor did I expect that you would take such an attitude over there.

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Do you really believe that we all maraud about the place in a big, savage, debunkly pack, descending like wolves on innocent websites?

Charles Boden said:

My intention was to bring the two “schools of thought” together, and anticipate the inevitable confrontation.

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There's only one school of thought involved here. This mediocrity thing is more a school of wishful fantasizing.

Charles Boden said:

If the evidence that is being presented indeed does not hold up to scrutiny, then it doesn't hold up to scrutiny, but please try to analyze it all and give it at least that “little shadow of a doubt”when doing so, and don't just discard or sweep under the carpet anything that cannot be explained, as I did feel was being done with me.

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What evidence?

Charles Boden said:

I think the one positive aspect of all that we have been debating / examining is that both sides now have a clearer picture of what lies behind each others' understanding and interpretation of the issue and why.

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I'm thinking not. Time will tell.

Charles Boden said:

I honestly don't know why you all should feel that reincarnation would be such a bad thing. The certainty that we will be with those we love throughout eternity? That “life” is so much more than just this one ephemeral existence? Why would this be a bad thing?

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Who says anyone thinks it would be a bad thing? It's right up there with rocket skates and free beer as far as I'm concerned, but as I've already noted, it's just wishful thinking, and there's not a skerrick of evidence for it happening.

Charles Boden said:

If you want to burn someone at the stake, kindly do it to me and leave the CPL forum alone.

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That's not for you to decide, Charles. We're a bit more scientific than that here.

Now, where are the scales? Someone bring me a duck!

Charles Boden said:

Neither you nor I can truly claim that we have the answers to such questions, so why not just consider this and let others retain what beliefs they might have just as you also retain yours?

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What questions? You've wandered off your topic a bit.

Charles Boden said:

On my part, the only reason behind doing what I have been doing has been simply the desire to share the concept and that “little message of hope”, and it is within these boundaries that I believe such things should remain – within the field of thoughts and ideas.

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Hope and belief are all very well, Charles, but they have no effect at all on the way things actually work.

Charles Boden said:

A “belief” is very much more a simple question of choice than anything else. As I said to you all, the “Spiritual Journey” is always an individual one.

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Spiritual Journey? Pics or it didn't happen.

Charles Boden said:

Concerning the Ouija and the ideomotor effect, for what it might be worth the “ideomotor effect” is very much an aspect of mediumnic communications. The Brazilian medium Chico Xavier used the technique of psychography, or “automatic writing”, and if indeed there are means of spiritual communications it is done at the level of the subconscious. The possibility of there having been a spiritual entity present in the room dictating the subconscious ideomotor movements in the episode I have referred to is, I believe, the only and fundamental difference of opinion between us. I certainly don't discard it off hand, in particular based on my own personal experiences.

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At last! The topic!

Did you bother to look at any of the material that was recommended to you by Olowkow and the others? How many times were 'spiritual entities' mentioned?

One thing you should realise about this forum is that little quarter is given to those who display wilful ignorance.

Charles Boden said:

Although I now have both sides upset at me, I am here to justify and explain the reason behind why I came here and did what I have done, which is for the same reason that I participate in such forums - for no other reason but to instigate a reflection upon the concept of reincarnation, which ,based on my own life experiences and what I have read and heard from others, seems to hold strong indications that it might be true.

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Sounds like a personal problem. What's any of this got to do with the ideomotor effect and mediocrity?

Charles Boden said:

It is just food for thought. Nothing more. Nothing less...

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Thinking of ways to combine rocket skates with free beer would be far more satisfying.

Charles Boden said:

My kindest regards to all of you,

Charles

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Despite that we're all great big meanies? Were you Gandhi at some stage?

Ssider said:

I know I'm late to the party here, but let me see if I get this straight...

You help get some guy kicked off a forum devoted to mediums and ouija boards...and he's MAD at you?

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In fairness to our esteemed colleagues, I think Charles did all the work.

Ssider said:

I would consider it a humanitarian service.

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Yeah, like one of those intervention thingies when a family re-kidnaps someone from a nasty cult. Medals all round, I say!


Welcome to the Zoo, Ssider.